Chip with simple program for Toy

[Roger Johansson]

Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote:

This still begs the question, though.

Is 10% okay?

If he was going to use one 200V zener, he can just as well use two, the
parameters are very similar for two in series and one single zener of the
same type.


--
Roger J.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On 15 Nov 2004 18:47:44 GMT, Roger Johansson <no-email@home.se> wrote:

If he was going to use one 200V zener, he can just as well use two, the
parameters are very similar for two in series and one single zener of the
same type.

Agreed. But I think another part of the post, "I don't want the voltage to be
any higher than 400V. But I don't want the voltage to be much lower than 400V,"
bears on this question. I don't think the OP knew about the 10% regulation of
such high-V zeners in the first place. But we can see what the OP says. We're
past the useful point of "intent mining" of the OP's post, I think.

Jon

 

[Ban]

CFoley1064 wrote:

____ T1 ___ ___ ___ +
o-|_--_|---o--. ,---. .--|___|-o-|___|-o-|___|-o-->|--o
FU1 | )|( | | R1 | R2 | R3 | D1
| )|( | | | | |
.----' '-. | .-------. | | | | 400V
| | | | | | | | | |
| | T2 | '-o ~ + o-' | VZ1/-/ |
| o--. ,-' | | +| ^ .-.
120VAC | | )|( | BR1 | --- | | |
| | )|( | | --- | R4| |
o----' '-. | | C1 | VZ2/-/ '-'
| | | .-o ~ - o-. | ^ |
| | T3 | | | | | | | |
| '--. ,-' | '-------' | | | |
| )|( | | | | |
| )|( | | | | | -
o--------o----' '---' '--------o-------o-------o------o
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta www.tech-chat.de

T1 - T3 120VAC pri, 10VAC sec, 20 VA plus transformers
R1 100 ohm, 10 watt
R2 5000 ohm, 5 watt
R3 40,000 ohm, 10 watt (or 2 ea. 20K 5W)
R4 330K 1 watt (bleeder resistor)
C1 10uF 600V or greater electrolytic
BR1 -- 800V bridge rectifier, 6A or more
D1 1N4007
VZ1 - VZ2 String of 1N4740 (10V) and 1N4742 (12V) 1 watt zeners on a
perfboard (you'll need 33 to 37 total -- stack up the '42s to get
over 400V, then replace '42s with '40s to get down to 400V+/-2V)

Out of the above components, you'll probably have the most trouble
finding a cap. You might want to scrounge one out of some older toob
stuff (check the cap first to avoid misery).

The idea is that you get the 10VAC from your first transformer, and
backfeed three more of the same type of transformer, applying the
10VAC to the secondary. You'll get around 120VAC out at the primary
of each (make sure to drastically oversize the transformers for this
job), and putting them in series will give you 360VAC, which should
rectify to a little more than 500V. R1 limits the surge current at
turn-on, saving your bridge rectifier and possibly the transformers.
C1 accepts the charge, and then R2 gives you a voltage drop for the
shunt zeners. The 5K value sets around 20mA steady state, out of
which 10mA will be stolen from the shunt by the load when cap is
initiating charge. 20mA (no load) can be handled easily by the 10V
and 12V zeners. The 40K R3 limits the current charging the cap, and
R4 is the bleeder resistor necessary to discharge C1 when you turn
off.

One thing I used to do was have a microswitch interlock, so that if
somebody opened the door to remove the cap or otherwise placed
themselves in peril, the power would automatically be turned off, and
the bleeder resistor (which could be made much lower to discharge
more quickly) was switched into the circuit. Think carefully about
your application, and how to minimize the danger, before you start.
After somebody gets hurt is too late. Don't forget the fuses, but
remember that they're not personal protection devices.

Good luck
Chris

He said he wanted 400V not 40.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

 

[Ban]

KILOWATT" <kilowatt"nospam wrote:

Hi everyones thanks to read. Since a few weeks, i'm using the
LightKeeper Pro from Ulta-Lit Tree Company (
http://www.lightkeeper.biz/default.asp ) to test and repair miniature
lights sets (series-wired). I've found the Quick Fix Trigger utility
very useful. as you can see on their website, it's based on a piezo
igniter that sends a high voltage pulse through the lights set to
activate (short) the shunt inside the bulb, that didn't do so when
the bulb's filament burned out. I wanted to see how this system is
built so i opened the unit. Here's two photos plus a schematic i've
drawed for the igniter section. (Sorry, the symbol for the piezo
igniter is probably wrong...i don't know the correct one).
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kilo.watt/images/lightkeeper1.JPG
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kilo.watt/images/lightkeeper2.JPG
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kilo.watt/images/hv_pulse_gen.bmp
As i can see, the four diodes allow a peak reverse voltage of
approximately 4Kv, wich is sufficient to break down the shunt's
insulation inside the burned bulb(s) and complete the series circuit.
Once completed, half of an AC cycle can flow through the four diodes,
allowing the set to glow (dimly) and show which bulbs are burned and
needs replacement.
What leads me to my question (please look at the schematic) is: why
the reverse voltage doesn't seem to damages those diodes? According
to the piezo igniter's website (
http://www.yiqiang-piezo.com/english/production2.htm ), the output
voltage is at least 15Kv. With the four 1n4007 wired in series, i
should get a peak reverse voltage of about 4Kv isn't? For what i
know, a diode is destroyed once it's PIV is exceeded. I think i
missed something when studying the basic operation theory of a diode.
;-) TIA for any useful reply.

I wonder what the fuse is for?
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

 

[Roger Johansson]

"Olaf Moruna" <ikeepthespiritalive@freenet.de> wrote:

ich habe mal versucht eine schaltung nachzubauen. zum besseren
verständnis: der schaltplan ist hier zu finden:
http://members.aol.com/torkraemer/ukwsender/ukwsender.html
nachdem ich gestern fertig wurde, habe ich eine 9V-batterie
angeschlossen und siehe da... es passiert nichts! ich habe mit einem
radio daneben überprüft, ob irgendwelche sendesignale rauskommen. bei
der entfernung zu meinem radio hätte mit sicherheit irgendetwas
durchgeschlagen, auch wenn ich die falsche frequenz eingestellt habe.
daher nun meine fragen: wie kann ich die schaltung überprüfen? ein
voltmeter

You should use english here, that would give you more help.

Maybe your microphone is an electret mic, then you need to give it power
to get a signal from it.

You can test if the mic works by measuring AC voltage at the collector of
the first transistor. When you speak into the mic you should see AC
voltage at the collector of TR2.

Build a RF voltage probe, and measure the RF voltage at the antenna
output.

Or use a radio and listen for the transmitter while you turn the power to
the transmitter on and off.


--
Roger J.

 

[CFoley1064]

Subject: Special "dual" pulse generator circuit (follow up)
From: "Jag Man" Jag_Man653R-E-MOVE@hotmail.com
Date: 11/15/2004 4:53 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <7samd.21678$6q2.15103@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com

The remaining question is regarding output pulse shape. If I connect a 10k
resistor between +12 and the optoisolator collector, and ground the emitter,
I can see the optoisolator switch from open to conducting. When it's open
the emitter is at +12 and when it conducts this voltage drops to 0 almost
instantaneously. However, when it opens again the rise back up to +12
is an exponential, taking about 2-3 milliseconds. Is this to be expected, or
am I overlooking something.

Ed

You might want to improve the risetime on the optotransistor by placing a 270K
resistor between the base and GND. That should improve things a bit. Also,
you might want to play around with the pullup resistor --a lower resistance
will improve the risetime. Try 4.7K and see if the collector output when on is
still saturated. If so, you will have cut your risetime in half right there.

Phototransistors are inherently slow, though.

Good luck
Chris

 

[Jack// ani]

"Ban" <bansuri@web.de> wrote in message news:<_Q%ld.330794$35.15255210@news4.tin.it>...

Really? You remind me of my youngest daughter, one question answered, two
new ones are popping up immediately.
Check out the input impedance of the darlington, we have seen already
1.2V/1.2uA = 1Megohm DC-resistance and now calculate the input capacitance
of that darlington. Hint: it is high because of the Miller-capacitance.
And then you can calculate the 3dB frequency of that lowpass, and you will
see it is low.
And BTW, what kind of antenna is your finger? Must have some loss at 800MHz?
You need a tuned circuit for RF to establish some power transfer.

Thanks

 

[Jag Man]

Thanks, Chris. I'll try a resistor connected to the base. From the data
sheet
I see that it's available at pin 6.

By "pullup resistor do you mean the one I have connected between +12
and the collector of the 3083?

Ed

You might want to improve the risetime on the optotransistor by placing a
270K
resistor between the base and GND. That should improve things a bit.
Also,
you might want to play around with the pullup resistor --a lower
resistance
will improve the risetime. Try 4.7K and see if the collector output when
on is
still saturated. If so, you will have cut your risetime in half right
there.

Phototransistors are inherently slow, though.

Good luck
Chris

 

[Joel Kolstad]

"Ban" <bansuri@web.de> wrote in message
news:O8gmd.175121$b5.8793585@news3.tin.it...

I wonder what the fuse is for?

Probably just for safety... the wiring/diodes probably aren't rated to carry
more than 3A, so they'd rather have the fuse blow than the diodes or the
wiring melt down.

It's a clever product, IMO!

 

[Mike]

Thanks for all the replies.

I've had a look at the circuit in the Art of Electronics book and it looks a
bit complicated for me. I think using zener diodes in series is the way to
go. I didn't take the tolerance into account in my original design. The
zener diodes I've seen have a tolerance of (+/-) 5%. So I think I'll try
and get a voltage of around 380V. 5% of 380V is 19V and 380+19 = 399V (or
it could be 380-19 = 361). It's not the original 400V I wanted, but it
seems fairly easy to implement.

If I use zeners in series, how do I calculate the value of the resistor?
For a single zener I would use:

R = (Vs - Vz) / Imax

Do I just add up the individual diodes Vs and Vz?

Thanks again.

 

[Roger Johansson]

"Mike" <mike@notemail.com> wrote:

Do I just add up the individual diodes Vs and Vz?

Yes, two 200V zeners become a 400V zener when connected in series.

If I use zeners in series, how do I calculate the value of the resistor?

Decide what current you want, and find the resistor value.

But what are you trying to use the zener for?

What kind of circuit are you talking about?
Where is the schematics?


--
Roger J.

 

[KILOWATT]

Thanks a lot for the infos... i appreciate.

--
Alain(alias:Kilowatt)
Montréal Québec
PS: 1000 excuses for errors or omissions,
i'm a "pure" french canadian!
Come to visit me at: http://kilowatt.camarades.com
(If replying also by e-mail, remove
"no spam" from the adress.)

 

[KILOWATT]

The 1n4007 are rated @ 1amp so the 3amp fuse seems to protect only the
wiring inside. ;-)

Probably just for safety... the wiring/diodes probably aren't rated to
carry
more than 3A, so they'd rather have the fuse blow than the diodes or the
wiring melt down.

It's a clever product, IMO!

 

[Chaos Master]

In article <d76ab107.0411151936.1cae25e0@posting.google.com>,
aaawelder@yahoo.com says...

Greetings,

I'm having more than a problem creating this device, LM317, in
CircuitMaker. When I load the "lm317.net" file into CM, I get this
message: "No Spice Analysis Specified in: lm317.net". OK, so I pull up
the spice data help screen and now I'm totally confused. I gathered
that the " % " sign preceeds the designations but, how do I define it
as a device?

IIRC, CircuitMaker already has LM317 symbol/model. Otherwise, you must
create a 'macro' element that refers to your model.

Don't ask me how to do this -- I'm no more a CircuitMaker user.

[]s
--
Chaos MasterŽ, posting from Brazil.
"It's not what it seems, not what you think. No, I must be dreaming."

http://marreka.no-ip.com | http://tinyurl.com/46vru
http://renan182.no-ip.org | http://marreka.blogspot.com (in Portuguese)

 

[Terry Pinnell]

aaawelder@yahoo.com (Randy Gross) wrote:

Greetings,

I'm having more than a problem creating this device, LM317, in
CircuitMaker. When I load the "lm317.net" file into CM, I get this
message: "No Spice Analysis Specified in: lm317.net". OK, so I pull up
the spice data help screen and now I'm totally confused. I gathered
that the " % " sign preceeds the designations but, how do I define it
as a device?

This is my first attempt at creating a device from a netlist so any
guidance in this matter will go a long way in restoring my battered
ego;-)

I've included the LM317 Netlist for examination:

*Netlist
*LM317 TI voltage regulator - pin order: In, Adj, Out
*TI adjustable voltage regulator pkg:TO-3

<snip>

I'm not clear what you are trying to do. Is this possibly a learning
exercise, trying to create a model from scratch, but deliberately
choosing a model that already exists so that you can check the result?
You don't say which version, but from your other thread I assume
you're using CM 6. As Robert has said, the CM 6 library already
contains an LM317, and it has the spec you have listed. But, as
already pointed out, that is the 'model subcircuit data', not the
'netlist'.

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:42:59 -0800, Jack// ani wrote:

Jonathan Kirwan <jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote in message news:<44scp0938886tmqngurqeddts23bic66ev@4ax.com>...

I think the OP was saying that ONLY one finger was used.

Oh yeah, exactly.

If it's that simple to make a touch sensor, then howcome all
those touch sensor circuits are so complicated?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[CFoley1064]

Subject: Re: Regulating High Voltage
From: "Ban" bansuri@web.de
Date: 11/15/2004 11:02 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <IRfmd.175109$b5.8793344@news3.tin.it


He said he wanted 400V not 40.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

Hi, Ben. Sorry -- the ASCII art isn't correct, even though the explanation is.
I'm assuming he has 10VAC. If he gets three more 10VAC transformers and
backfeeds them (applying 10VAC to the secondaries, using them as the primaries
in step-up configuration), he can get 120VAC out of the primary of each one,
giving him 360VAC if he puts them in series to go to the rectifier and shunt
regulator.

Sorry it wasn't clear. Slinging ASCII. My bad.

Chris

 

[peterken]

"Mike" <mike@notemail.com> wrote in message
news:cna5g4$c7o$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

Hi,

I'm trying to design a high voltage DC power supply, which will be used
for
charging up a capacitor. To start with I only want an output of 400V DC.
The supply voltage to the supply will be around 10V AC.

My current design consists of a simple step-up transformer (10V AC to 400V
AC), a bridge rectifier (AC to DC), and a smoothing capacitor (reduce the
ripple). With this design (I think) I should be able to get a high
voltage
of something around 400V DC. As it's used to charge a capacitor I don't
want the voltage to be any higher than 400V. But I don't want the voltage
to be much lower than 400V. So I guess I need someway of regulating the
output. It seems a zener diode is the way to go, but I can't find any
that
will regulate 400V (only 200V).

So my question is, does anyone know a way to regulate the output voltage
without using zener diodes? I could add / remove turns from the
transformer
until I get the correct voltage, but this is far from ideal (not to
mention
tedious).

If it makes any difference, the current requirements of the supply are
10mA
at 400V.

Thanks for any help,

bad idea using zeners, since those high voltage zeners have large tolerance
(upto 10%)
also, if they are "regulating" constantly at say 5mA then every zener must
dissipate 1W....
bad efficiency I think, also the switching primary side will get in trouble
eventually

so the way to go is by using feedback
IF common of primary and secondary may be connected, then use a voltage
divider (resistors), with say a ratio of say 1:100 (proposal 1M/10k, close
enough for trimming)
this way you get 4V from the divider, which can be used to "measure" the
secondary voltage and regulate the 10Vac in.

IF common of primary and secondary may NOT be connected, then use a linear
opto-coupler to create primary side "measuring"

 

[Robert Monsen]

Randy Gross wrote:

Terry Pinnell <terrypinDELETE@THESEdial.pipex.com> wrote in message news:<vv6mp0lge2vuao6a5r694dnk7u0qoejrr4@4ax.com>...

snip

I'm not clear what you are trying to do. Is this possibly a learning
exercise, trying to create a model from scratch, but deliberately
choosing a model that already exists so that you can check the result?
You don't say which version, but from your other thread I assume
you're using CM 6. As Robert has said, the CM 6 library already
contains an LM317, and it has the spec you have listed. But, as
already pointed out, that is the 'model subcircuit data', not the
'netlist'.


Yes Terry, this is/was a learning exercise. I found the LM317 in the
.lib file and incorporated it however, I did'nt learn anything about
creating a model from scratch. There are two other devices in the
LM317/LM301A regulator circuit (found in the LM317 datasheet) that CM6
does not have a model of I could find in the LIBs':

MJ4502 Transistor, 200W, 100V, 30A, TO-3
and
IN457 Diode (no data yet)

If I had a walk-thru on this first attempt, I would understand the
process. The CM6 help files are a little confusing without an example.

Randy

With CM, you can pick a component that is similar, and do an 'edit
model' on it. For example, if you want to enter a model of a MJ4502
transistor, you pick one that is similar, enter it into a schematic,
then double click on it. That brings up a dialog. Select the 'edit'
button, and an editor comes up that allows you to create a new model.
Get the values out of the datasheet, and rename the model, and then you
can pick it just like any other transistor.

Same goes for diodes.

Some of the models will just bring up a netlist editor. In that case,
just replace the appropriate values in the netlist.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[CFoley1064]

Subject: Regulating High Voltage
From: "Mike" mike@notemail.com
Date: 11/15/2004 5:55 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <cna5g4$c7o$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk

Hi,

I'm trying to design a high voltage DC power supply, which will be used for
charging up a capacitor. To start with I only want an output of 400V DC.
The supply voltage to the supply will be around 10V AC.

My current design consists of a simple step-up transformer (10V AC to 400V
AC), a bridge rectifier (AC to DC), and a smoothing capacitor (reduce the
ripple). With this design (I think) I should be able to get a high voltage
of something around 400V DC. As it's used to charge a capacitor I don't
want the voltage to be any higher than 400V. But I don't want the voltage
to be much lower than 400V. So I guess I need someway of regulating the
output. It seems a zener diode is the way to go, but I can't find any that
will regulate 400V (only 200V).

So my question is, does anyone know a way to regulate the output voltage
without using zener diodes? I could add / remove turns from the transformer
until I get the correct voltage, but this is far from ideal (not to mention
tedious).

If it makes any difference, the current requirements of the supply are 10mA
at 400V.

Thanks for any help,

Hi, Mike. Hmmn. Quick 'n' dirty cap charger. 400VDC, 10mA max, 10VAC from a
transformer available.

Before you start, remember that you're dealing with potentially lethal voltage
here, and you should observe appropriate safety precautions.

Also, you should be aware that there are good isolated, current-limited high
voltage power supplies available at hamfests, ebay and such that will give you
exactly what you want with no hassle and at good prices. Just provide the 40K,
10 watt series resistor (use 2 ea. 20K, 5 watt in series) and you're good to
go.

Also, if you happen to have a constant voltage transformer handy, you might not
need a regulator at all. Just set up your transformers and rectifier, and
tweak a voltage divider in using a "Dividohm" power resistor and another diode
to make it so your peak no load voltage (cap fully charged) is 400V.

Having said that, the prior post mentioning zeners is also a good idea,
although I'd probably use a string of 10V and 12V 1 watt zeners (1N4740,
1N4742) to do the job. Of course, I happen to have a small drawer full of
these. Use any 1W zeners below 40V. That would allow me to tweak in final
voltage to within a couple of volts of where I wanted to be, and these zeners
are commonly available. If you've got access to It would look something like
this (view in fixed font or M$ Notepad):

____ T1 ___ ___ ___ +
o-|_--_|---o--. ,---. .--|___|-o-|___|-o-|___|-o-->|--o
FU1 | )|( | | R1 | R2 | R3 | D1
| )|( | | | | |
.----' '-. | .-------. | | | | 400V
| | | | | | | | | |
| | T2 | '-o ~ + o-' | VZ1/-/ |
| o--. ,-' | | +| ^ .-.
120VAC | | )|( | BR1 | --- | | |
| | )|( | | --- | R4| |
o----' '-. | | C1 | VZ2/-/ '-'
| | | .-o ~ - o-. | ^ |
| | T3 | | | | | | | |
| '--. ,-' | '-------' | | | |
| )|( | | | | |
| )|( | | | | | -
o--------o----' '---' '--------o-------o-------o------o
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta www.tech-chat.de

T1 - T3 120VAC pri, 10VAC sec, 20 VA plus transformers
R1 100 ohm, 10 watt
R2 5000 ohm, 5 watt
R3 40,000 ohm, 10 watt (or 2 ea. 20K 5W)
R4 330K 1 watt (bleeder resistor)
C1 10uF 600V or greater electrolytic
BR1 -- 800V bridge rectifier, 6A or more
D1 1N4007
VZ1 - VZ2 String of 1N4740 (10V) and 1N4742 (12V) 1 watt zeners on a perfboard
(you'll need 33 to 37 total -- stack up the '42s to get over 400V, then replace
'42s with '40s to get down to 400V+/-2V)

Out of the above components, you'll probably have the most trouble finding a
cap. You might want to scrounge one out of some older toob stuff (check the
cap first to avoid misery).

The idea is that you get the 10VAC from your first transformer, and backfeed
three more of the same type of transformer, applying the 10VAC to the
secondary. You'll get around 120VAC out at the primary of each (make sure to
drastically oversize the transformers for this job), and putting them in series
will give you 360VAC, which should rectify to a little more than 500V. R1
limits the surge current at turn-on, saving your bridge rectifier and possibly
the transformers. C1 accepts the charge, and then R2 gives you a voltage drop
for the shunt zeners. The 5K value sets around 20mA steady state, out of which
10mA will be stolen from the shunt by the load when cap is initiating charge.
20mA (no load) can be handled easily by the 10V and 12V zeners. The 40K R3
limits the current charging the cap, and R4 is the bleeder resistor necessary
to discharge C1 when you turn off.

One thing I used to do was have a microswitch interlock, so that if somebody
opened the door to remove the cap or otherwise placed themselves in peril, the
power would automatically be turned off, and the bleeder resistor (which could
be made much lower to discharge more quickly) was switched into the circuit.
Think carefully about your application, and how to minimize the danger, before
you start. After somebody gets hurt is too late. Don't forget the fuses, but
remember that they're not personal protection devices.

Good luck
Chris