Chip with simple program for Toy

[Pooh Bear]

Geogle wrote:

Phil, Thaks for the personal remarks

Just reminds me of a posting asking if the google
groups are septic tanks!.

Being stubborn and s*d and ready to kill myself,
may I ask again what is fundamentaly wrong here ?
Is it possible to protect the meter electrically ?

Once Phil has started abusing you its unlikely to be possible to get
any sense out of him. It's best to amuse yourself by imagining his
head exploding.

I'd like to know what the issue is too actually.

Graham

 

[Phil Allison]

"Geogle"

** You are a stupid, fucking cunt.

Being stubborn and s*d and ready to kill myself,
may I ask again what is fundamentaly wrong here ?


** The meter connects any external PSU to the AC supply rendering it a
LETHAL object to touch.


Nobody is touching the meter or anything connected to it.

** Impossible to prove such a thing.

It is inherently fucking lethal.

I sincerely hope it KILLS you.




.......... Phil

 

[Pooh Bear]

capnfishytakethisout@lineone.net wrote:

This could be OT, but I'm posting here to get replies with no
baggage....
I have a relay in my boiler which buzzes/arcs I'm trying to diagnose
the fault, probably in my wiring. What conditions (eg shorting) would
cause a relay to switch on & off very rapidly (leading to a buzzing
noise) & arc?
Many thanks
Jonathan

Many possibles. Get a heating engineer in to look at it.

Graham

 

[Art]

Inproper current draw, unregulated control voltage, protective circuits,
maultple things. As suggested, HVAC Technician time, would probably save you
a bunch in the long run.
"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43D94B9B.CF3E617A@hotmail.com...

capnfishytakethisout@lineone.net wrote:

This could be OT, but I'm posting here to get replies with no
baggage....
I have a relay in my boiler which buzzes/arcs I'm trying to diagnose
the fault, probably in my wiring. What conditions (eg shorting) would
cause a relay to switch on & off very rapidly (leading to a buzzing
noise) & arc?
Many thanks
Jonathan

Many possibles. Get a heating engineer in to look at it.

Graham

 

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:58:01 -0800, Geogle wrote:

Phil, Thaks for the personal remarks

Just reminds me of a posting asking if the google groups are septic
tanks!.

Being stubborn and s*d and ready to kill myself, may I ask again what is
fundamentaly wrong here ? Is it possible to protect the meter electrically
?

The only thing that's fundamentally wrong here is that you're trollfeeding
Phil Allison.

Ignore him.

Let's start diagnosing what exactly went wrong. Can you accurately
sketch _exactly_ the setup you had when the meter blew? A full-on
schematic would be preferable.

Running your external supply from a 9-0-9 transformer is fine -
the step-down transformer itself provides all the isolation from
the mains that you need.

Now, show us the power supply circuit you used, and what kind
of input protection you used with your DMM - Did you build a
9V power supply to substitute for the battery? Does it have
excessive ripple? Could the meter have been on the wrong voltage
range when you tried your measurements?

Again, as long as the supply is isolated, which, if you're using
a transfomrer, it is, then it should be indistinguishable to the
meter from the battery, as long as it's properly filtered.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:46:43 +0000, capnfishytakethisout wrote:

This could be OT, but I'm posting here to get replies with no baggage....
I have a relay in my boiler which buzzes/arcs I'm trying to diagnose the
fault, probably in my wiring. What conditions (eg shorting) would cause a
relay to switch on & off very rapidly (leading to a buzzing noise) & arc?
Many thanks
Jonathan

It's ON-topic for s.e.basics, so no worries on that account. The only
OFF-topic questions on s.e.b are those that don't involve electrons in one
way or another. ;-)

I'd look at the physical condition of the relay, like dirt or some
obstruction; and check all of the connections in the relay's coil
circuit. It sounds like it's not pulling in fully.

It used to work, and this symptom appeared recently, right?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Phil Allison]

"Rich Grise"


** The only thing that's fundamentally wrong here is that you're
trollfeeding
that psychotic fuckwit - Rich Grise.

Killfile the prick NOW.

Running your external supply from a 9-0-9 transformer is fine -
the step-down transformer itself provides all the isolation from
the mains that you need.

** Then the DMM connects the 9 volt supply BACK to the mains.

YOU FUCKING CRIMINAL IDIOT !!!!!!

Again, as long as the supply is isolated, which, if you're using
a transfomrer, it is, then it should be indistinguishable to the
meter from the battery, as long as it's properly filtered.

** DO NOT DO THIS !!!!

IT IS MASSIVE SAFETY HAZARD.



......... Phil

 

[Rich Grise]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:19:35 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

"Rich Grise"
** The only thing that's fundamentally wrong here is that you're
trollfeeding
that psychotic fuckwit - Rich Grise.

Well, Phil Allison has deemed me to be a "psychotic f???wit", eh?

Why does that make me feel like dancing? ;-P

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Geogle]

Thanks to all helpfulreplys, Chris and Rich, and all.

Looks like it is pretty tough to get the block in ascii, preview shows
not what is edited in the edit box! Still I am sending hoping it may be
helpful to analyze the problem. Please let me know if there is a good
way to post the schematic to groups.

Here is the "block diagram" of what I did. I hope it reaches you in
good shape!

DANGER - LIVE PARTS - DO NOT TOUCH

L |--------|
-----------| | 9V |-------------|
Probe: HV
| |----------------|
|-----------
Mains | PWR | | 7107 |
| | |
|
N | |----------------|
|-----------
------------| | 0V |-------------|
Probe: GND
|--------|
There were no additional protection for the DMM. It was set to
HV(700V), before the circuit was powered and connected to mains. The
supply had the usual 1000u filter on unregulated side, and something
like 10u on the regulated side.

A brief explanation and question about other ways of
protection(specific for the block explained here - not for general
measurements.):

GND is connected to N , and HV is coupled to L (line).

Here 0V,9V lines are floating with a HV value, because of cap. coupling
in power unit. But voltage across 0 - 9V can never go above 9V. So if
0 V is floating at 200V AC, 9 V signal will be oscillating with 200V
above 9V DC part. But never a dangerous voltage between 0 and 9V

Now if the Probe ground is also taken to the same voltage level ( with
same phase ) as 0V, there should not be any damage. But it will be
wrong to short them, from the viewpoint of 7106 design. If a 1000u 25V
cap is connected between (+v to GND , -ve to 0V ) 0V and GND, would it
filter out the leaked AC voltage ? The impedence is low enough that
thevoltage between 0V and GND will never cross the DC voltage at GND
terminal.

Another option is to provide a Zener to keep the voltage difference
below 9V. But a filter cap will still be required.

The cap case is equivalent to connecting a cap between 0 volt and earth
of a normal 9v battery adaptor. That should not really cause the cap to
explode!! Nor should there be much danger in touching the 0,9V outputs
of the adapter.

Now connecting the 7106 based DVM to that supply and connecting the
probes as shown above should be ok. ( Keep in mind that parts of the
circuit are at dangerous line levels. But since the voltage across 0V
or 9V cannot go above GND+9V, (Actually GND will be between 0 and 9V,
depending on the circuit of DMM ). Unit should operate normally. Does
this sound ok ? Even the zener case should be good enough to protect
the DMM, since the 0,9V levels are never let to rise above the zener
voltage from GND level.



DANGER - LIVE PARTS - DO NOT TOUCH

L |--------|
------------| | 9V |-------------|
Probe: HV
| |----------------|
|-----------
| PWR | | 7106/7 |
| | | |
N | |----------------|
|-----------
------------| | 0V | |-------------| |
Probe: GND
|--------| |
|
| | |+
|
+-----------| |------------+
| |

or Zener.



Here is the simplified equivalent circuit:


L
------------------ | L
Leakage Cap (in PFs) | ___|____
|
_______ Leakage cap.
------ |
------
|
| |
0V line | ----> Voltage is low enough at this point?
| - |
------ ( in uFs ) __|___
------ 1000u \ /
| + 25V \ /
| -----> GND \/ /
----------------- |-------|

/ |
N | N

 

[Cliff]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 04:44:57 GMT, Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org>
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:01:46 -0500, Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> Gave us:

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:01:28 GMT, Roy L. Fuchs <roylfuchs@urfargingicehole.org
wrote:

One must always tie one's Faraday Cage to earth...
as often as one can... :-]

Why?

It will build an electrostatic charge up for one thing.

HUH?
That has nothing to do with a Faraday Cage.
Nor does it follow.

(You should have seen Flash, the god of flashlights ...)
"The voltage will float off to who knows where."

Grounded chassis are for draining away potential ESD threats as well
as for EMI RFI suppression.

Things can be "grounded" but suppress nothing much.

In the case of a miles long sheathed cable run, yes, it should be
tied to ground often to keep it drained, and to protect from and drain
lightning strikes.

Lightning strikes & EMP pulses (perhaps worse) are another matter.
--
Cliff

 

[Chris]

Geogle wrote:

Thanks to all helpfulreplys, Chris and Rich, and all.

Looks like it is pretty tough to get the block in ascii, preview shows
not what is edited in the edit box! Still I am sending hoping it may be
helpful to analyze the problem. Please let me know if there is a good
way to post the schematic to groups.

Here is the "block diagram" of what I did. I hope it reaches you in
good shape!

DANGER - LIVE PARTS - DO NOT TOUCH

L |--------|
-----------| | 9V |-------------|
Probe: HV
| |----------------|
|-----------
Mains | PWR | | 7107 |
| | |
|
N | |----------------|
|-----------
------------| | 0V |-------------|
Probe: GND
|--------|
There were no additional protection for the DMM. It was set to
HV(700V), before the circuit was powered and connected to mains. The
supply had the usual 1000u filter on unregulated side, and something
like 10u on the regulated side.

A brief explanation and question about other ways of
protection(specific for the block explained here - not for general
measurements.):

GND is connected to N , and HV is coupled to L (line).

Here 0V,9V lines are floating with a HV value, because of cap. coupling
in power unit. But voltage across 0 - 9V can never go above 9V. So if
0 V is floating at 200V AC, 9 V signal will be oscillating with 200V
above 9V DC part. But never a dangerous voltage between 0 and 9V

Now if the Probe ground is also taken to the same voltage level ( with
same phase ) as 0V, there should not be any damage. But it will be
wrong to short them, from the viewpoint of 7106 design. If a 1000u 25V
cap is connected between (+v to GND , -ve to 0V ) 0V and GND, would it
filter out the leaked AC voltage ? The impedence is low enough that
thevoltage between 0V and GND will never cross the DC voltage at GND
terminal.

Another option is to provide a Zener to keep the voltage difference
below 9V. But a filter cap will still be required.

The cap case is equivalent to connecting a cap between 0 volt and earth
of a normal 9v battery adaptor. That should not really cause the cap to
explode!! Nor should there be much danger in touching the 0,9V outputs
of the adapter.

Now connecting the 7106 based DVM to that supply and connecting the
probes as shown above should be ok. ( Keep in mind that parts of the
circuit are at dangerous line levels. But since the voltage across 0V
or 9V cannot go above GND+9V, (Actually GND will be between 0 and 9V,
depending on the circuit of DMM ). Unit should operate normally. Does
this sound ok ? Even the zener case should be good enough to protect
the DMM, since the 0,9V levels are never let to rise above the zener
voltage from GND level.



DANGER - LIVE PARTS - DO NOT TOUCH

L |--------|
------------| | 9V |-------------|
Probe: HV
| |----------------|
|-----------
| PWR | | 7106/7 |
| | | |
N | |----------------|
|-----------
------------| | 0V | |-------------| |
Probe: GND
|--------| |
|
| | |+
|
+-----------| |------------+
| |

or Zener.



Here is the simplified equivalent circuit:


L
------------------ | L
Leakage Cap (in PFs) | ___|____
|
_______ Leakage cap.
------ |
------
|
| |
0V line | ----> Voltage is low enough at this point?
| - |
------ ( in uFs ) __|___
------ 1000u \ /
| + 25V \ /
| -----> GND \/ /
----------------- |-------|

/ |
N | N

Hi, Geogle. Your ASCII got munged big time by Google. Here's what to
do: Go to

www.tech-chat.de

and download the beerware Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.28 (Andy says
beerware means "If we meet some day, and you think this stuff is worth
it, you can buy me a beer in return.") If you've ever used any kind of
CAD program, it's self-explanatory. Then, while using the Google Reply
feature, use the AAC Clipboard feature to copy your circuit to the
clipboard, then paste it into the text of the message. The Google
reply preview feature sometimes munges ASCII diagrams, so I don't use
it if I've got one in the reply. Here's a sample depicting your power
supply:

____
9-0-9 1N4001 | | +9V
o------. ,----->|--o-----o---|7809|----o-------o
)|( | | |____| |
)|( | +| | +|
120VAC ) ,--. |1000--- | 10---
)|( | | uF--- | uF---
)|( |1N4001| | | |
o------' '--)-->|--' | | |
| | | |
'------------o-----o-------o-------o
COM
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)

To view ASCII in Google, either click "Fixed Font" when showing the
message, or cut 'n' paste into Notepad.

People have been smoking DMMs since the 7107 was invented in the '70s
trying to get rid of the battery and replace it with a 7809-based 9VDC
power supply. It's pretty much OK as long as your power source is
well-isolated, your regulator is working well and the
voltage/current/resistance being measured is really floating, but
that's usually not the case. The linear power supply shown above
usually has several mV of 120Hz ripple, as well as some higher
frequency ripple under light load. These will cause accuracy problems
with the DVM. And your voltage is at line potential, which is a big
problem.

In order to see why this is an issue, you'll have to look at the 7107
circuit as part of the larger circuit with your power supply and the
line. You also have to look at the hidden capacitances between L1 and
the secondary, L2 and the secondary, and the other variables that are
generally covered under the term "leakage current". Another factor you
have to consider is powering up. Not only do you have to worry about
transformer capacitance unless you happen to get lucky and turn on at
the precise zero-crossing of the line voltage, but you also have to be
concerned about applying voltage to the inputs before the 9V supply has
come up. Note that, because of series resistance of the transformer
secondary, it takes time to charge up your 1000uF cap -- what's
happening at the input during that time can easily smoke your IC.

One of the biggest "newbie" mistakes is to look at function blocks
without looking at the whole circuit. Just because you can logically
put a box around something and call it a functional block, doesn't mean
electrons think that way. They just do what they do, especially when
it's inconvenient or they have a chance to disabuse you of your
preconceptions. Look at it this way -- they're trying to be useful,
teaching you to think.

Trust me, your trick's been tried. It won't work reliably without a
bit more work and expense. You might want to look at the alternatives.
Six D batteries in series will give you a much longer battery life at
less expense than popping 9V batteries every so often. If you've got
an old 7106-based DVM (LED display), I'd seriously recommend a 12V
lead-acid rechargeable battery along with a micropower low dropout
voltage regulator to pull it down to 9V.

By the way, Phil has a good and very essential point. His concern
about line voltage is correct. Use your head, and don't play with any
of the above unless you know what you're doing. Exercise appropriate
precautions. If you need to ask what those are, you don't know. Be
careful.

If you want to follow up on this, you also might want to describe your
project, and what you're trying to accomplish. If you're trying to
monitor line voltage, simply placing a cheapie DVM across the line may
not get you to your goal, anyway.

Good luck
Chris

 

[JeffM]

Please let me know if there is a good way
to post the schematic to groups.
Geogle

Try putting a column of periods down the left side.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/88b6feb870208a29/214c7f3b01f35d65?fwc=1

 

[Chris]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:46:43 +0000, capnfishytakethisout wrote:

This could be OT, but I'm posting here to get replies with no baggage....
I have a relay in my boiler which buzzes/arcs I'm trying to diagnose the
fault, probably in my wiring. What conditions (eg shorting) would cause a
relay to switch on & off very rapidly (leading to a buzzing noise) & arc?
Many thanks
Jonathan

It's ON-topic for s.e.basics, so no worries on that account. The only
OFF-topic questions on s.e.b are those that don't involve electrons in one
way or another. ;-)

I'd look at the physical condition of the relay, like dirt or some
obstruction; and check all of the connections in the relay's coil
circuit. It sounds like it's not pulling in fully.

It used to work, and this symptom appeared recently, right?

Thanks,
Rich

Hi, Rich. Always good to hear from you. Nice to see you're spending
some time amidst us groundlings on s.e.b.

You're right, it's probably a good idea to look at the physical
condition of the relay first. Since it's a heating application, I'd
guess it's probably an AC relay, so I'd also suspect a partial short in
the coil, or a loose shading ring. Sometimes the shading ring comes
loose, and can be snapped back into place.

http://www.geindustrial.com/pm/notes/artsci/art02.pdf

Less likely, the thermostat or sensor switch driving the relay might
not be closing fully, or has gotten resistive.

Best solution might be to replace the relay, and see if that solves the
problem. If it doesn't, the solution is probably in the switch or
thermostat.

I hope this does something to improve the knowledge : baggage ratio.

Good luck
Chris

 

[Chris]

JeffM wrote:

Please let me know if there is a good way
to post the schematic to groups.
Geogle

Try putting a column of periods down the left side.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/88b6feb870208a29/214c7f3b01f35d65?fwc=1

Jeff's right -- if you put a line of characters on the far left side of
the ASCII schematic (you can just draw a vertical line to the far left
in AACircuit), you can use the preview feature in Google.

Chris

 

[Phil Allison]

"Chris"

" By the way, Phil has a good and very essential point. His concern
about line voltage is correct. Use your head, and don't play with any
of the above unless you know what you're doing. Exercise appropriate
precautions. If you need to ask what those are, you don't know. Be
careful. "


** My attitude is that any * highly dangerous, illegal and plain stupid *
idea is better NOT discussed at all - just roundly condemned.

This is a public forum and the words are all archived as well - making it
possible for others with even less sense than the OP to attempt the same or
similar dangerous set up.

Remember - it is NOT only the mad experimenter who is at risk with a
dangerous electrical device but also all members of his family, small
children, friends and anyone he might chose to SELL such a contraption to.

BAD NEWS.

Don't go there.



......... Phil

 

[Rich Grise]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 06:17:17 -0800, Chris wrote:

Geogle wrote:
Thanks to all helpfulreplys, Chris and Rich, and all.
[diagrams snipped]
Hi, Geogle. Your ASCII got munged big time by Google. Here's what to
do:
Go to...

I know there's a way to put google into courier - i.e., fixed-width text,
mode, it's just that it's been so long ago I've forgotten how to do it.

It's only a couple of clicks, and should be fairly self-explanatory,
Poke around a bit, you'll find it!

Good Luck!
RIch

 

[Richard the Dreaded Liber]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 10:40:49 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

"Chris"

" By the way, Phil has a good and very essential point. His concern about
line voltage is correct. Use your head, and don't play with any of the
above unless you know what you're doing. Exercise appropriate
precautions. If you need to ask what those are, you don't know. Be
careful. "

** My attitude is that any * highly dangerous, illegal and plain stupid *
idea is better NOT discussed at all - just roundly condemned.

Lemme guess - you voted for Dubya, no?

Helluva endorsement! ;-D

THanks,
Rich
--
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo Possum

 

[Rich Grise, but drunk]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:04:13 -0800, Chris wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:46:43 +0000, capnfishytakethisout wrote:
This could be OT, but I'm posting here to get replies with no
baggage.... I have a relay in my boiler which buzzes/arcs I'm trying
to diagnose the fault, probably in my wiring. What conditions (eg
shorting) would cause a relay to switch on & off very rapidly (leading
to a buzzing noise) & arc? Many thanks
Jonathan

It's ON-topic for s.e.basics, so no worries on that account. The only
OFF-topic questions on s.e.b are those that don't involve electrons in
one way or another. ;-)

I'd look at the physical condition of the relay, like dirt or some
obstruction; and check all of the connections in the relay's coil
circuit. It sounds like it's not pulling in fully.

It used to work, and this symptom appeared recently, right?

Hi, Rich. Always good to hear from you. Nice to see you're spending some
time amidst us groundlings on s.e.b.

Oh, puh-leeze! I'm a groundling too, just I've been in the trenches for
going on forty years. ;-) (i.e., I've learned the difference from my
elbow to a hole in the ground. I made up that expression by incorporating
two old cliche's[1], by the way. I've heard it on TeeVee. Anyway....

Admittedly, the accolades make my ego get too big for the cubicle, and it
makes me want to dance and shtuff, but please don't gush!

I got a stipend from a benefactor once, (benefactress, actually, but I
don't want to be sexist), and when I went to kiss her feet, she said,
"Oh, don't grovel!" If you want to find somebody to fawn at the feet of,
lurk news:sci.electronics.design for awhile. ;-)

You're right, it's probably a good idea to look at the physical
condition of the relay first. Since it's a heating application, I'd
guess it's probably an AC relay, so I'd also suspect a partial short in
the coil, or a loose shading ring. Sometimes the shading ring comes
loose, and can be snapped back into place.

http://www.geindustrial.com/pm/notes/artsci/art02.pdf

Less likely, the thermostat or sensor switch driving the relay might not
be closing fully, or has gotten resistive.

Best solution might be to replace the relay, and see if that solves the
problem. If it doesn't, the solution is probably in the switch or
thermostat.

I hope this does something to improve the knowledge : baggage ratio.
AOL

Me, Too!
</AOL> ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
[1] apostrophe used in lieu of accent grave

 

[JeffM]

Lemme guess - you voted for Dubya, no?
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian

I'm sure he would if he could.
(Look at his email address closer.)

 

[JeffM]

Your ASCII got munged big time by Google.
Chris (CFoley1064 @ yahoo.com)

I know there's a way to put google into courier
- i.e., fixed-width text mode
Rich Grise

Yup. **Fixed font**--plain as day at the top of the page
(or append &fwc=1 to the URL).

Doesn't hold for the **inreplyto** page, however.
(Obvious if you do a
llllll
OOOOOO.)
Best to cut & paste from a monospaced editor.

The **Preview** page is monospaced,
but once it is actually posted,
you find there can be some quirks to the WYSIWYG thing;
leading whitespace seems to be one of those quirks.