Can somone explain WHY positive first when jumping a car battery?...

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:46:51 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 10:43:04 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:59:03 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:29:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:17:27 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:36:05 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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[Peter W.]

76 (including this one) posts for what is a (or should be) an uncomplicated subject on a pretty basic automotive process. Really?

 

[David Lesher]

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.


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[Rod Speed]

David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.

There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 07:41:53 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:

David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.

There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.

I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.

 

[Scott Lurndal]

=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:

Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.

There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.


I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.

Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?

Far more \"airy\" environment than any automobile engine compartment.

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:

=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.

I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?

Have you actually seen a rocket launch? The launch rocket itself is a
gigantic blowtorch which would have blown away or ignited \"any H2 that
pools around the launch site\". Besides, H2 doesn\'t \"poll around the
launch site\" because hydrogen is much lighter than air. Any leaked H2
would have risen up into the heavens.



> Far more \"airy\" environment than any automobile engine compartment.

 

[Scott Lurndal]

=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:

Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.

I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?


Have you actually seen a rocket launch?

Yes, and a shuttle landing as a guest at Edwards. Note that the SLS uses
shuttle main engines.


https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35983/what-are-the-sparks-flying-at-the-bottom-of-ssmes-at-the-time-of-launch

\"At T minus 10 seconds, the \"go for main engine start\" command
is issued by the GLS. (The GLS retains the capability to command
main engine stop until just before the SRBs are ignited.) At this
time flares are ignited under the main engines to burn away any
residual gaseous hydrogen that may have collected in the vicinity
of the main engine nozzles. A half second later, the flight
computers order the opening of valves which allow the liquid
hydrogen and oxygen to flow into the engine\'s turbopumps.\"

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 6:32 PM:

=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.
I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?

Have you actually seen a rocket launch?
Yes, and a shuttle landing as a guest at Edwards. Note that the SLS uses
shuttle main engines.


https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35983/what-are-the-sparks-flying-at-the-bottom-of-ssmes-at-the-time-of-launch

\"At T minus 10 seconds, the \"go for main engine start\" command
is issued by the GLS. (The GLS retains the capability to command
main engine stop until just before the SRBs are ignited.) At this
time flares are ignited under the main engines to burn away any
residual gaseous hydrogen that may have collected in the vicinity
of the main engine nozzles. A half second later, the flight
computers order the opening of valves which allow the liquid
hydrogen and oxygen to flow into the engine\'s turbopumps.\"

The person who wrote that is definitely not educated enough to know that
hydrogen rises and won\'t stick around at the base of the rocket. That is
the most laughable thing a person can say.

The real reason for the flares shooting at the rocket nozzle is an
insurance policy that in case the internal ignition mechanism failed to
ignite the hydrogen fuel mixture, the flares will guarantee the hydrogen
fuel will be ignited.

Image if the hydrogen fuel mixture failed to ignite internally and there
is no flare at the nozzle, the rocket will expel all the hydrogen fuel
mixture while sitting on the launch pad. Image how big the fireball that
will ensue when it does ignite by static charge or random spark one
minute later.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 08:28:30 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.

There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.


I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

In spades when the hood is opened to allow the positive jumper lead
to be connected to the battery post.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.

Not with modern sealed batterys which have a catalyst that recombines
the gases back to water and which have the metal used in the plates
which ensure that no hydrogen is produced when they are charged.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 09:04:09 +1100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home>
wrote:

=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.

There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.


I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.

Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?

Because you get FAR more gaseous hydrogen in that situation.

> Far more \"airy\" environment than any automobile engine compartment.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:32:26 +1100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home>
wrote:

=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote on 1/19/2023 5:04 PM:
=?UTF-8?B?TWlnaHR54pyFIFdhbm5hYmXinIU=?= <@.> writes:
Rod Speed wrote on 1/19/2023 3:41 PM:
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote

You want the spark when disconnecting to be AWAY from the
rapidly charging battery.
There is no hydrogen when the once flat battery
is being charged once the engine has started.

So: Run the negative from frame to frame,
and disconnect at the rescue car first.

I real life scenario there is no danger of hydrogen accumulation under
the hood because it is too airy inside the engine compartment.

There will be danger of hydrogen accumulation if the lead-acid battery
is confined inside a box, like underneath a motorized wheelchair.
Then why do space launch vehicles use burners to ensure that any H2
that pools around the launch site is burned off before launch?


Have you actually seen a rocket launch?

Yes, and a shuttle landing as a guest at Edwards. Note that the SLS uses
shuttle main engines.


https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35983/what-are-the-sparks-flying-at-the-bottom-of-ssmes-at-the-time-of-launch

\"At T minus 10 seconds, the \"go for main engine start\" command
is issued by the GLS. (The GLS retains the capability to command
main engine stop until just before the SRBs are ignited.) At this
time flares are ignited under the main engines to burn away any
residual gaseous hydrogen that may have collected in the vicinity
of the main engine nozzles. A half second later, the flight
computers order the opening of valves which allow the liquid
hydrogen and oxygen to flow into the engine\'s turbopumps.\"

And the important bit is the fact that the fuel is LIQUID HYDROGEN
which can see lots of gaseous hydrogen around the area where the
fuel will be ignited if there is any leak at all.

 

[Peeler]

\"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing \"the big, hard
man\" on the InterNet.\"

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

--
williamwright addressing Rodent Speed:
\"This is getting beyond ridiculous now. You\'re trying to prove black\'s
white. You\'re arguing with someone who has been involved with the issues all
his working life when you clearly have no knowledge at all. I think you\'re
just being a pillock for the sake of it. You clearly don\'t actually believe
your own words. You must have a very empty life, and a sad embittered soul.
MID: <j08o6bFeqc1U1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Xeno]

On 18/1/2023 2:35 pm, mike wrote:

When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do, but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it\'s harder to remember unless you know
why.

https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

Batteries should never be *quickly* recharged. If you flatten your
battery, it is far better to slow charge the battery until it is fully
charged at a rate of 4 - 6 amps - depending on battery size. Using the
alternator to charge a dead flat battery will result in 35-80 amps being
pumped into the battery which will cause overheating and maybe plate
buckling - as well as gassing the battery of course. All this tends to
shorten the battery life.

First they say the cars shouldn\'t touch.
Why?

Starters can draw 150 - 500 amps of 12 volt DC current. If the negative
leads aren\'t making a good connection, the car bumpers might make the
perfect substitute. In the days of metal bumpers, having them weld
themselves together is probably not the best outcome. With plastic
bumpers, not so much of an *electrical* issue but you\'ll be scuffing the
paint on them.

Then they said positive first.
Why?

Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?

The negative cable - the last connection to be made - to the dead car
should not be made to the battery terminal. Instead, it should be
connected to a metal part far removed from the battery. Batteries give
off hydrogen gas, especially when they are flat and have been fast
charged by the jump cars alternator. The last cable to be connected is
the one most likely to create sparks. Best not to be near the
potentially gassing battery. Ditto when disconnecting that earth, might
spark, again best not near that potentially gassing battery.

Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/

And how often do you need to add water?
This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn\'t that like every ten days?

If you need to constantly add water, I suggest you check your charge
output. Your battery is being overcharged and is gassing the battery.
Doesn\'t do a lot for the longevity of the battery either.

And how do you know how much to add?
They say add water to the \"splash plate\" but what is that?

As long as the electrolyte covers the top of the cell plates, all will
be well.

They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn\'t it more than that?

Nope. The electrical system of a car is *14 Volts*, not 12V as is
commonly believed. You need that voltage to charge a 12 Volt battery at
its nominal 12.6 Volts. After charging, the battery will show more than
that but it is only a *surface charge* and will quickly dissipate back
to 12.6. What people don\'t realise is that the battery is *only* for
starting the engine. Whilst ever the engine is running, the car
electrical system is running off the alternator - hence a 14 Volt
system. NB, alternators typically output between 13.8 and 14.2 Volts.
Any less and the battery may not fully charge, any more and you will get
gassing.

They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

Ask yourself what heating water does to its volume and you\'ll have
answered that question.

And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

You shorten the life of your battery.

--
Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)