Can somone explain WHY positive first when jumping a car battery?...

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:28:58 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:
I always did positive first. I will switch!

Think it out first - then decide.

I\'m thinking... I\'m thinking... I\'m trying to think this thing out.
I don\'t think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last.

You are wrong with the question of accidentally touching
the body etc with the positive lead when the negatives
have already been connected. Much safer to connect the
positive terminals first.

As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that
sparks.
And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks.

Sparks aren\'t the problem. they happen regardless of which
of positive and negative you connect first.

Since you don\'t want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable
hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I\'ll concoct is you want the
negative
cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible.

The reality is that with the battery in the engine compartment
with the hood up, there will be on concentration of flammable
hydrogen gas.

Even with the few cars that have the battery in the passenger
compartment or the trunk, thats still very unlikely because
the battery only produces hydrogen gas when it continues
to be charged after it is fully charged.

That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect.
And the first to disconnect.

Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which
battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas.

The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose,
which
battery will have more hydrogen outgassing?

(A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or

But which won\'t be being charged unless the engine is still running.

> (B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge)

Only AFTER the connection has been made which allows that.

The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen
gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the
most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor.

The reality is that it isnt about hydrogen gas, its about
accidentally touching the body of the recipient car with
the positive jumper lead before it is connected to the
positive post of the flat battery.

All this is just \"thinking it out\" so tell me if I\'m wrong so I learn
from
your expertise (the royal your that is, as everyone has something to
say).

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:37:33 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.

De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water..
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding
them:

   Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

   Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

   Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water
does not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of
reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more
impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled
water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information..


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve
already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.

People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

You don\'t get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.

You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6..

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html

Didn\'t the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that \"acid
rain\" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as
distilled water nowadays?

No its not, because its impossible to collect rain water
that has come off the roof without some dirt and stuff
like bird shit and leaves from the roof, quite apart from
what happens to it sitting in your tank between when it
came off the roof and you get some to add to your battery.

Sure, it\'s slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it\'s not acid rain, that is, as
acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a
bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won\'t hurt
the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it?

The problem is the lead carbonate. Not enough to matter tho.

I\'m guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles
of a volcano (and you don\'t) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don\'t),
is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country.

Nope, because of whats on the roof and in the gutters dirt and bird shit
wise.

Sure rain water will have a bit of \"something here\" and \"something there\"
based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of
distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere.

The difference is that the distilled water hasnt fallen thru thousands
of feet of air in small droplets.

Someone said there are \"particles\" in the rain water, but I don\'t believe
that as you can\'t see any when you collect it outside and even if there
were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store
bought distilled water doesn\'t have particles?).

Doesnt help with the solubles.

Sure, both might have particles, but I can\'t imagine they could matter
given how few there would be if you can\'t even see them with your eyes..

You can\'t see solubles.

> But I don\'t know.

That\'s obvious.

I\'m just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of
you. If there\'s someone who actually knows what he\'s talking about (not
me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this
line
of reasoning.

Wouldn\'t dream of doing that. You might burst into tears
and that would be rather embarrasijng and someone might
claim I have breached community standards.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:41:48 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:16 AM:
MightyWannabe wrote:

There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying
electric
current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.
In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
was young that the best way to \"absorb\" some of the excess current in
the
first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.

This seems counterintuitive from the recipient\'s standpoint in terms of
\"using\" current but the theory is that the \"B\" sense circuit of the
alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a \"very low\"
battery so it tells the alternator to put out a \"very high\" current,
whose
initial burst could (\"they say\") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes..

Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment.

There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
that your car stereo\'s anti-theft system kicks in, and you\'ll have to
go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard..
But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?


I can think of a simple way. Connect jump cable clamps to the car
battery terminals and then carefully loosen and lift the terminals from
the old battery.

Trouble with that approach is that you can\'t
usually connect the thick battery leads to the
new battery until the new batter is where the
old battery still is.

Another way is to connect a 12V cigarette lighter plug into the
cigarette lighter socket to temporarily maintain a 12V to the whole
system from another 12V power source before you disconnect your old
battery. You may have to power on the accessories in your car if you car
is designed to cut off the power to the cigarette lighter socket when
the ignition is off.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:50:24 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

It\'s a car battery. It\'s not a silicon based integrated circuit.
Water is water. To a certain degree it\'s all the same thing.

Fraid not.

> I don\'t know the answer for sure,

That\'s obvious.

but I would reason out that almost all
tap water will be just fine in a car battery

Some tap water is quite hard and produces
lots of scales in an electric jug over time.

although I don\'t doubt
chlorine (or chloramines?) that they put in them might affect the
lead:acid
chemistry.

That doesn\'t.

> They add fluorine too I think,

Fluoride, not flourine.

and there might be a decent amount of
calcium carbonates

Yes, with hard water.

> and metallic ions such as copper and phosphorous.

Not normally enough to matter.

But some still have water from wells for their tap water.

I\'m guessing that the minute amount of such things (having owned a pool,
I\'m aware they\'re in the PPM range, and PPB for phosphorous) in a car
battery designed to last five years, won\'t make one bit of difference.

Particularly as most don\'t add water to their car battery anymore with
sealed batterys.

An example of tap water total alkalinity is around 50 to 200 PPM and the
calcium hardness due to calcium salts would range a bit higher, maybe
double (depending, of course, on the amount of old shallow seas in your
area fifty to two hundred million years ago).

And how much limestone there is. Lots in some places.

But distilled water is cheap and rain water is even cheaper, and, in
fact,
so is tap water - so since they\'re all dirt cheap, may as well use the
rain
water.

Or distilled water given that its cheap and you dont use much.

That\'s how I see it from a reasoned approach, where I\'m very familiar
with
the scare tactics pool stores try to pull on people when they find
something, anything, to say \"oh that\'s going to damage your equipment.\"

Same technique those Indian \"Microsoft support tech\" try to pull on you
when _they_ call you and tell you to look in the Event Viewer and all
those
errors indicate your computer needs their expert help with ransomware
addition.

Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades
a
car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years?

The battery manufacturers do.

 

[Rod Speed]

Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote

Has anyone wondered whether the \"pure\" water will be \"leaching\" out the
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?

It doesn\'t leach out of the plates, its boiled off when the battery
is still charged when it has been fully charged already.

> Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium,

That\'s wrong too.

and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.

There is no equilibrium involved. You presumably
mean that the dissolved stuff spread thruout the pool.

So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.

Utterly mangled all over again. Lead doesnt dissolve in
water enough to matter.

> Has anyone thought of that?

Corse the designers of car batterys have.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 03:09:25 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
the battery fluid.

I say from the start that I\'m only \"reasoning\" this out, purely
theoretically, so while I\'m sure adding tap water with high calcium
carbonates will add \"some\" impurities.

Your use of \"too much\" is what bothers me, only because I\'ve never seen a
single reliable source that tested this for the five year life of a
battery.

I\'m sure someone tested it - but I\'ve never seen those tests, where my
assumption, without those tests, is sure, \"something\" will be added, but
will it make any difference in a twenty-five pound battery designed to
last
only five years?

You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled
water.

Again I\'m only reasoning this out, and I would back off on my rationale
the
instant someone shows me batteries being harmed by rain water, which is
distilled water nowadays, despite the \"acid rain\" scare tactics of some.

The Indian \"Microsoft support techs\" tried to pull the same scare tactics
on me that the pool stores do, where they take a single tiny event and
turn
it into the explosion of the Maine in Havana\'s harbor.

A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to
dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.

A commercial outfit will always follow industry standards if they\'re
reputable (most are not, in my humble opinion - most are scammers).

That\'s why you never believe anything coming out of the mouth of someone
selling you a service without checking it (for example, they\'ll tell you
that you \"need\" a fluid change when the owners manual will disagree).

They\'re all scheisters in my book - and I\'ve been sheisted by them so I
know this for a fact that some are sheisters who can\'t be trusted.

Back to this topic, how do you know that the \"pure\" water isn\'t leaching
out all the good paste on the plates, now that it\'s devoid of ions?

Trivial to test that by weighing the battery before and after.

I\'m not asking this as a challenge - as the basic logic is sound.

What I\'m looking for is a real answer to the practical question of how
much
could it possibly matter in a twenty-five pound battery designed for a
short life in what turns out to be miserably inhospitable temperature &
vibration conditions, not to mention discharge recharge redox cycles.

The reality is that modern cars use sealed batterys and no one
adds any water to them anymore.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 03:21:25 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you\'ve
hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
negative first. Then while you\'re trying to connect the positive (and
sometimes that\'s not easy. It has a cover or it\'s tucked away, or you
can see it but can\'t get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
are connected to a good battery. Big spark.

Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the
last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the
battery, so that would have to be the negative cable.

However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all
the
hydrogen,

That\'s wrong. You don\'t get hydrogen when attempting
to start the car with a battery that is flat or can\'t deliver
the current the starter motor requires to turn the engine
over fast enough.

so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on
last (because that\'s where the spark will be and the donor battery is
presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing).

But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first,
then
anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched.

So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and
specifically
the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by
another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably
also on the donor car because it\'s going to spark.

Which is the correct line of reasoning?

(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or

Yes, but thats not because of the hydrogen.

(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
of accidentally shorting the circuit

More chance of accidentally touching part of the body of the donor car
with the positive lead clamp.

& the donor has less outgassing

> Which is more logical?

A, but for a different reason.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 10:20:29 +1100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>
wrote:

On 2023-01-18 13:36, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
@.> wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.


De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding
them:

Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

Bullshit, don\'t try that, you could die.

Nope.

Why can\'t we drink distilled water?

Drinking distilled water creates health problems from the lack of
essential nutrients

We aren\'t discussing JUST drinking distilled water,
we are discussing whether it is dangerous to drink it.

> and causes dehydration.

Bullshit. At most it might mean you don\'t get
enough salt if you drink lots of it and dont eat
anything.

> Drinking distilled water is never a bad idea

That\'s the opposite of what you just claimed.

because the body cannot absorb dissolved minerals from water into the
tissue.Sep 29, 2022

Doesn\'t need to if you get the salt from fool or salt tablets.

What Is Distilled Water and Is It Safe to Drink?
https://www.freshwatersystems.com › blogs › blog › is-...

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/blogs/blog/is-distilled-water-safe-to-drink

Just because some fool claims something...

Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does
not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.
OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!
I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:
Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.
Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management
vs.
Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method
Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from
the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.
If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.

https://www.smacgigworld.com/blog/differences-between-deionized-water-and-distilled-water.php


Distillation:

Advantages

Removes contaminants to a large extent
Reusable
Lower cost

Limitations

Some contaminants that have the same boiling point as water is
vaporized with water can be carried into the condensate

The reality is that there are no contaminants like that in the
water used to make distilled water for car batterys.

Careful maintenance is required to ensure purity
Requires more heat / electrical energy to boil the water.
Requires large space on the counter

So do deionizers.

Slower process



Deionization:

Advantages

Effectively remove dissolved ions in the water.
Able to regenerate resin beds
Low-cost investment

Limitation

Do not remove particles or bacteria.

Or contaminants that have the same boiling point as water.

> Operating costs increase when used for the long term.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:39:01 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
There\'s no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home
most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for
cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/

It\'s a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.

I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/

They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one.
https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/

I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve attached.
https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX

It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I
switched
to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main valve.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/

I know what you\'re thinking and I\'m sure it\'s used for that, but for me,
it\'s all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are
clean.

You\'ll never need toilet paper ever again and you\'ll be cleaner as a
result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the first
place.

How does Covid make you need more TP?

It doesn\'t but when some fools started buying it up so
they wouldn\'t be without it, other fools followed suit.

These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.

It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.

Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn\'t touch the body.


And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the
drain).

Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?

How did you know?

I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean.
https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/

Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I\'ll say no more.

Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it\'s
emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a
re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is).
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/

It\'s really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer at a
factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
heat.

For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/

The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but consider
it
a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever again.

It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket
with
the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I\'ve kept
it, I
guess they\'re thinking a dead animal lives there or something.

I don\'t think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace along
with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it\'s only plastic that I have
to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.

A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.

I\'m not disagreeing with you as I said I didn\'t know from the start.
I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
At least not yet.
But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.

Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the outside
world.

I don\'t think I\'ve had to add water to a car battery in years. I guess
it\'s
done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).

Why wouldn\'t demineralized water demineralize a battery?

Because a car battery doesn\'t work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?

You got me there.

The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn\'t matter for sanitation
where
I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine level
at
least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That\'s it for sanitation.

For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do you
have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature) are
out
of your hands so it\'s a game of matching the saturation index with the
expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the
concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.

I would think battery chemistry has the same \"type\" of equilibrium
constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.

Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:01:45 +1100, Frank <Frank@frank..net> wrote:

On 1/18/2023 11:18 AM, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
Has anyone wondered whether the \"pure\" water will be \"leaching\" out the
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?

Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule..

So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber
sheets.

Has anyone thought of that?
Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!
Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled
water, but one gallon goes a long way.
Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.


Think those costs are off with two different sources and sizes.

Google sez this:

\"However, in general, distilled water is more expensive than deionized
water. This is because it takes more time and energy to produce
distilled water, and it also requires special equipment that not all
companies have.\"

When I worked in the lab we had a distilled water line to every bench
but it was replaced by deionized water to save cost.

Been decades since I had a car battery that needed water but I am
hearing it is better to put distilled or demineralized water in your car
radiator if needed as minerals are bad there too.

Only if you are in a hard water area or use your own well water.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:54:10 +1100, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:

On 2023/01/17 8:33 p.m., mike wrote:
On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery
and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.
Thank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
Isn\'t there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be
connected?

The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
last contact point.
I\'m not disputing that since I\'m the one asking the question, but
didn\'t
that article above say the opposite?
They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead
car.

The point is to first connect the positive lead to the battery positive,
and then the negative lead AWAY FROM THE BATTERY by connecting to the
engine metal. In that order for safety.

After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is AWAY
FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
Perhaps you left the jumpers connected for a few minutes while charging
the battery which leads to more hydrogen gas

No, because the battery doesn\'t gas unless it is being charged when
fully charged already and that won\'t be happening with either battery.

> which makes a spark more and more likely/dangerous as time goes on...

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:53:57 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

Therefore, as I have explained before, the highest grade of pure water
is deionized water made from distilled water.

What happens to the dissolved carbon dioxide concentration of that
\"highest
grade of pure water\" once you open the jug & leave it for a while at STP?

Henrys Law says it will reach equilibrium based on the partial pressure
of
the carbon dioxide in the air.

Its more complicated than that in reality because you wouldnt
leave the top off after you have used some to top up the battery.

That ionic carbon dioxide dissolves and turns into carbonic acid.

pH about 5.6

It\'s only \"pure water\" for an instant.

But isn\'t impure enough to matter in reality.

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Rod Speed wrote on 1/18/2023 7:52 PM:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:39:01 +1100, Peter
occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
There\'s no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home
most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for
cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/


It\'s a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.

I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/


They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one.
https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/


I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve
attached.
https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX

It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I
switched
to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main
valve.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/


I know what you\'re thinking and I\'m sure it\'s used for that, but for me,
it\'s all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are
clean.

You\'ll never need toilet paper ever again and you\'ll be cleaner as a
result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the first
place.

How does Covid make you need more TP?

It doesn\'t but when some fools started buying it up so
they wouldn\'t be without it, other fools followed suit.

For them, it is a logical consequence of hoarding food in a survival
mode. What goes in, must come out.

These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.

It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.

Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn\'t touch the body.


And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the
drain).

Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?

How did you know?

I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean.
https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/


Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I\'ll say no more.

Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it\'s
emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a
re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is).
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/


It\'s really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer
at a
factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
heat.

For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/


The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but
consider it
a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever again.

It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket
with
the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I\'ve kept
it, I
guess they\'re thinking a dead animal lives there or something.

I don\'t think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace
along
with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it\'s only plastic that I
have
to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.

A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.

I\'m not disagreeing with you as I said I didn\'t know from the start.
I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
At least not yet.
But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.

Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the
outside
world.

I don\'t think I\'ve had to add water to a car battery in years. I
guess it\'s
done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).

Why wouldn\'t demineralized water demineralize a battery?

Because a car battery doesn\'t work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?

You got me there.

The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn\'t matter for sanitation
where
I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine
level at
least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That\'s it for sanitation.

For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do
you
have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature)
are out
of your hands so it\'s a game of matching the saturation index with the
expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the
concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.

I would think battery chemistry has the same \"type\" of equilibrium
constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.

Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 5:39 PM:

Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I\'ll say no more.

Medical research says that enlarged prostate is a direct consequence of
male hormone, much like male pattern baldness.

I haven\'t reached a state that I have problem passing urine but I can
sense that the passage is narrowing because it takes longer to empty the
bladder.

I have been experimenting with all sorts of herbal hair tonics for more
than ten years now. I am not bald yet, but like every man I am thinning
at the crown.

Finally I come back to think about dealing with the male hormone, the
alleged culprit of male pattern baldness and enlarged prostate. I found
out on the internet that soybean and the artificial sweetener \"Stevia\"
have female hormone effect. So I started using Stevia instead of
Sucralose, and eating a lot of tofu.

https://www.amazon.com/Now-Better-Stevia-Organic-Sweetener/dp/B005F9XFN0

I also make 1% Stevia water mixture as hair tonic to apply in my crown
area. I add 10% in volume isopropyl alcohol mainly as preservative. I
don\'t know if Stevia can rot in water but I imagine no bacteria can grow
in 10% IPA solution.

For tofu, I buy from Chinese supermarkets soft tofu in plastic buckets
that look like this photo:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0360/7035/9178/products/WeChatImage_20200414153015_500x_a8743a02-1633-437e-ab22-79f27427aa69.jpg

I empty all the water and refill with cold tap water everyday and keep
in the refrigerator.

You might be able to find soft tofu in small plastic flats of 4, or 6
cubes in normal supermarket but Chinese supermarkets also sell tofu in
bucket size plastic containers as shown in the above photo.

My way of eating this tofu is:

Put one cube in a 2 qt batter bowl like this

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Anchor-Hocking-Glass-Mixing-Batter-Bowl-with-Lid-2-Quart/163913120

Cut the tofu in the batter bowl with scissors vertically many times
without holding the tofu by hand. Then add some cooking oil and close
the lid. Put into microwave and nuke it.

The steam can escape from the lid so there is no danger of the steam and
pressure blowing the lid off in the microwave.

Season with anything you like, but I usually eat it with other food in
my meal.

It will take a long time to see results in countering the deleterious
effect of male hormone in man\'s hair and prostate, but I can tell than I
have less sex drive after two months of using Stevia as sweetener and
adding tofu to my diet. Maybe it is working.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:06:05 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

Rod Speed wrote on 1/18/2023 7:52 PM:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:39:01 +1100, Peter
occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
There\'s no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home
most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for
cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/

It\'s a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.

I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago..
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/
They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one..
https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/
I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve
attached.
https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX

It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I
switched
to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main
valve.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/
I know what you\'re thinking and I\'m sure it\'s used for that, but for
me,
it\'s all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are
clean.

You\'ll never need toilet paper ever again and you\'ll be cleaner as a
result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the
first
place.

How does Covid make you need more TP?

It doesn\'t but when some fools started buying it up so
they wouldn\'t be without it, other fools followed suit.

For them, it is a logical consequence of hoarding food in a survival
mode.

They weren\'t hoarding food in survival mode.

> What goes in, must come out.

No evidence that more would go in with covid around,
so no need for more toilet paper than usual.

These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.

It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.

Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn\'t touch the body..


And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the
drain).

Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital
bed?

How did you know?

I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean.
https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/
Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I\'ll say no more.

Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it\'s
emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a
re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is).
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/
It\'s really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer
at a
factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
heat.

For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/
The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but
consider it
a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever
again.

It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket
with
the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I\'ve kept
it, I
guess they\'re thinking a dead animal lives there or something.

I don\'t think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace
along
with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it\'s only plastic that I
have
to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.

A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time
that
a battery can hold the charge.

I\'m not disagreeing with you as I said I didn\'t know from the start.
I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
At least not yet.
But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.

Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre
glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the
outside
world.

I don\'t think I\'ve had to add water to a car battery in years. I guess
it\'s
done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).

Why wouldn\'t demineralized water demineralize a battery?

Because a car battery doesn\'t work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?

You got me there.

The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn\'t matter for sanitation
where
I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine
level at
least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That\'s it for sanitation.

For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do
you
have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature) are
out
of your hands so it\'s a game of matching the saturation index with the
expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the
concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.

I would think battery chemistry has the same \"type\" of equilibrium
constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.

Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.

 

[Rod Speed]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote

Peter wrote

Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I\'ll say no more.

Medical research says that enlarged prostate is a direct consequence of
male hormone, much like male pattern baldness.

Doesnt explain why an enlarged prostate shows up in old age
when the male hormone levels have clearly dropped significantly.

> I haven\'t reached a state that I have problem passing urine

I dont either and am almost into my 80s. Never need to piss at night
either.

but I can sense that the passage is narrowing because it takes longer to
empty the bladder.

Don\'t get any effect like that either.

And my PSA tests are fine.

I have been experimenting with all sorts of herbal hair tonics for more
than ten years now.

I haven\'t bothered and have been visibly balding for more than 50 years
now.

> I am not bald yet, but like every man I am thinning at the crown.

I am much balder than that and it is genetic, my dad started
to thin in his 30 and ended up quite a bit balder than me.

Finally I come back to think about dealing with the male hormone, the
alleged culprit of male pattern baldness and enlarged prostate.

Don\'t buy that claim with enlarged prostate for the reason I listed.

I found out on the internet that soybean and the artificial sweetener
\"Stevia\" have female hormone effect. So I started using Stevia instead
of Sucralose, and eating a lot of tofu.

https://www.amazon.com/Now-Better-Stevia-Organic-Sweetener/dp/B005F9XFN0

I also make 1% Stevia water mixture as hair tonic to apply in my crown
area. I add 10% in volume isopropyl alcohol mainly as preservative. I
don\'t know if Stevia can rot in water but I imagine no bacteria can grow
in 10% IPA solution.

For tofu, I buy from Chinese supermarkets soft tofu in plastic buckets
that look like this photo:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0360/7035/9178/products/WeChatImage_20200414153015_500x_a8743a02-1633-437e-ab22-79f27427aa69.jpg

I empty all the water and refill with cold tap water everyday and keep
in the refrigerator.

You might be able to find soft tofu in small plastic flats of 4, or 6
cubes in normal supermarket but Chinese supermarkets also sell tofu in
bucket size plastic containers as shown in the above photo.

My way of eating this tofu is:

Put one cube in a 2 qt batter bowl like this

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Anchor-Hocking-Glass-Mixing-Batter-Bowl-with-Lid-2-Quart/163913120

Cut the tofu in the batter bowl with scissors vertically many times
without holding the tofu by hand. Then add some cooking oil and close
the lid. Put into microwave and nuke it.

The steam can escape from the lid so there is no danger of the steam and
pressure blowing the lid off in the microwave.

Season with anything you like, but I usually eat it with other food in
my meal.

It will take a long time to see results in countering the deleterious
effect of male hormone in man\'s hair and prostate, but I can tell than I
have less sex drive after two months of using Stevia as sweetener and
adding tofu to my diet. Maybe it is working.

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:01:08 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743467.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:04:26 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
\"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing \"the big, hard
man\" on the InterNet.\"
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

 

[Peeler]

\"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing \"the big, hard
man\" on the InterNet.\"

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

--
MrTurnip@down.the.farm about senile Rodent Speed:
\"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage.\"
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:21:14 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
R Souls addressing the trolling senile Australian cretin:
\"Your opinions are unwelcome and worthless. Now fuck off.\"
MID: <urs8jh59laqeeb0seg1erij61m383reog5@4ax.com>