Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for FTTN
instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on top
of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS
that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre
network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.

Only to those as stupid as you.

I have said repeatedly now that we should be providing
a decent broadband service for those who can't currently
have one if they want one, and that how that is best done
varys with where they are.

That's pretty vague, isn't it?!!

Nope.

Seriously lacks any technical details.

Nope, those are there right now.

How can the outback towns get at least 20Mbps?!!

They dont need at least 20Mbps.

ADSL2+ will do them fine and most of them have that right now.

The problem isnt the towns, its those well out of the towns.

Is is possible the current satellite interenet technology to provide a
minimum satisfactory speed?!

Yes.

What about the towns(either regional outback ones or not so regional)
that need 50Mbps speed(at least)?!

None of them need anything like that.

You need to give some tech details,

Nope.

otherwise they are just sweet words that may turn bitter.

Nope.

According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I have never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like
that.

Yes, you said something remotely resemble that.

Nope.

I quote you here,

"I just dont see any reason to be spending anything like $50B NOW when
most of us have
a very viable broadband service if we want it."

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that MOST OF US is nothing even remotely
resembling anything like ALL OF US.

"It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband service to
those who can't currently have one

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that THOSE WHO CAN'T CURRENTLY HAVE
ONE is nothing even remotely resembling anything
like ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

using whatever makes the most sense with those who can't currently have a
decent broadband service."

And you provide us very little detail how you gonna do that!

Because anyone with even half a clue who has been following
the debate about the NBN knows that that is by using whatever
of ADSL2+. wireless the way the NBN is doing it right now, and
satellite and FTTP are the way to do that.

I'm dying here to hear more details of your broadband plan for the
nation.

Then just die quietly.

I would, but not before you.

'Whatever' isn't good enough.

You get no say what so ever on what is or is not good enough.

Why not?! You seem to be getting a say.

Pollies like to hear details regardless of whether they can understand it
or not.

No one with even half a clue actually gives a flying red fuck
what those stupid clowns might or might not like to hear.

Do J.Coward and T. Ababttoire fall into the same catergory?!

Compare the coalition's rejigged-one-more-time-'cause-we've-got-NFI
policy to that of roadworks. Let's take the example of majority of the
M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba.

They had the ability to implement three lanes in each direction when
it was being built, for nominally 15% more than the cost of building
two lanes in each direction - but they chose not to. Now the widening
of the road to three lanes each way is costing them 150% of the
original building cost.

Let's pluck an exemplaery figure out of my arse - if the original cost
of building the M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba was $1B, it would've cost
them $1.15B to make it a six-lane road - but it's now costing them a
total (including original woks) of $2.5B.

As financially painful as it might be in the short term, a complete
investment in infrastructure will yield massive rewards going into the
future without constantly "sticky-taping" costly improvements as the
need arises for each.

That doesn't mean to say I fully agree with the way in which it was
implemented; engaging contractors with NFI to do the job just because
they said they can was an utterly idiotic decision to make, not at all
different to the way in which the "free roof insulation" scheme was
implemented.

Ultimately, we _do_ need this type of infrastructure if we're to even
survive through the remainder of the century - we no longer have a
viable manufacturing industry, most of our intellectual resources are
being shipped out, and anybody who thinks we're getting a fair price
for the ore that's being dug out of our land is an idiot.

Without providing technological infrastrucutre, it won't be long
before we end up being another Greece. Why do you think India's
booming? It's not because of their natural resources and definitely
not because of their capable citizens - it's because their government
was astute enough to realise that providing appropriate tools would
allow even incompetents to flourish in the new world economy.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for FTTN
instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on top
of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS
that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre
network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.
According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I was only agreeing with "But his approach will cost even more than FTTP
will." - I don't see anything from him unless someone else quotes it,
and in this instance that's all I saw.

Decent broadband perhaps for 70+-year-olds using the 'net to send
e-mails to their great grandchildren, but FFS, even Romania has better
'net connectivity than Australia. We entirely skipped VDSL+, a
technology which could've bought us several more years of speed with
zero cabling outlay (and relatively small equipment outlay at the
exchanges).

I have a friend in Romania. They have decent cable internet there as
well.
Yes, I think VDSL has been overlooked here for whatever the reason.

IMO, Fibre NBN is a gamble

No it isnt, just a waste of money.

That depends

and a good one.

No, just a waste of money.

That depends

But we should've debated and researched it lot more before going ahead
with the current FTTP version of the NBN.

Your clown pulled it out of the hat when he discovered that
no one was actually stupid enough to tender for his FTTN.

Somebody must have deleted it, 'cos i can't find it anywhere.
Got any links, dude?!

I think it was implemented bit too soon without enough consultation and
research.

And without any attempt to justify spending $50B when most
of us can have a very decent broadband service either.

Wonder why all the outback towns and many regional areas are hopeless when
it comes to 'decent' broadband.

Similar thing happened with the Home Insulation Scheme as well

It happened with every single thing that terminal fuckwit did in fact.

Yeah, I know, J. Coward was that stupid, other than his federal bill on gun
control on looneys.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

On 17th July 2013 I delivered a talk at the CommsDay Wholesale
and Data Centre Summit in Sydney about the NBN called
"The Ideal Wholesale NBN Market". Simon Hackett, Internode founder

This talk proposes just a few of the many ways in which the build cost,
build time, and operating cost of the FTTH NBN could be lowered
(perhaps dramatically lowered) by auditing the entire existing design
and by applying the fruits of some lateral thinking about what is really
needed to make the network work - and what the network can do without.

The author presents a good case based on his position as a
major Retail Service Provider. He is advocating handing over
a larger share of the cost, and therefore the profit, to RSPs.

Not that large a share, actually. And he is actually talking
about the very real problem that the cost to the RSP is
supposed to dramatically increase over time too.

The current NBN Co Network Terminating Unit has four
ports and can offer a choice of RSPs but Hackett wants
to alter the system so that there is only a single RSP and
even proposes that the RSP should supply the NTU.

Yes.

While Hackett is probably right and
the extra ports will be largely unused

I doubt it with PayTV and the net alone.

While operations like his and now iinet that he sold
out to are certainly interested in providing that along
with the net service, that isn't what Foxtel wants to see.

they provide a unique opportunity for imaginative extra services.

Yes, but with a significant cost in what ends
up in the consumer's place as he points out.

The provision of a free government (and other)
services port seems an excellent idea.

Makes more sense to have that included in
the PayTV side of things, but at no cost for
those who just want the free to air channels.

Eliminating the POTS ports would also channel
the supply of telephone services via an RSP

Not necessarily with so many doing that
stuff with the mobile phone system now.

whereas the NBN Co design allows a telephone-only
connection using the customers existing telephones.

Yes, but as he points out, at a very significant cost for
those phone only connections, for what is as he points out
something that is seen with fewer and fewer customers now.

Does it actually make any real sense to be ripping out all that
POTS copper and replacing it with a much more expensive
way of providing POTS services for those customers ?

The reason the NBN wants to do that is because you then
have no choice but to use the NBN because the copper is
gone and they then can claim that most use the NBN service.

But in reality most would just use a mobile phone if the copper
is ripped out, most of them wouldn't bother with the NBN unless
they are too stupid to work out how to use a mobile phone and
just want someone to do everything for free and carry on regardless
and in effect by grossly subsidised by everyone else for that approach.

His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect
also limits competition. I believe the additional points of
interconnect were added at the instigation of the ACCC
because they would allow more localised service providers

But there are in fact fuck all of those left anymore for various reasons.

Does it really make any sense to be forcing everyone who
wants to operate nationally to be spending a hell of a lot more
just so almost no one can do a local service more cheaply ?

and to avoid making existing telco's fibre useless.
They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

And dramatically so too.

The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes

And its clear its only a small part of the total cost
of the NBN even if he doesn't spell that out himself.

let alone an estimate of the added costs to the consumer.

He did claim it wouldn't cost much more at and is
likely right about that with the RSP provided NTU.

I agree that the cost of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised.

I don't when most of us already have a decent broadband service.

We don't.
Most of us do much more than usenet and wikepedia, etc surfing.
We download and upload a fair bit.
Bandwidth demand due to audio-video material is growing rapidly.

I don't see that transferring a small fraction of those
costs to the consumer via the RSP is a benefit

And it can only be a small fraction.

especially if it limits access to the NBN.

It doesn't.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"Petzl" <petzlx@gmail.com> wrote in message
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On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 09:52:23 +1000, Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote:

On 22-Jul-13 11:01 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:

Hmmm...

I have the NBN pulling in cables at the top end of my street this morning.

Don...

Welcome to the world of knowledge and modern civilization.
A world of justice, freedom, liberty and democracy.

NBN brings all of that?!!!
How so?

--
Petzl
http://tinyurl.com/AbbottsPorkPies
Q: What has Tony Abbott promised Murdoch?
A: A broadband network that will be so slow as to offer no competition to
his pay TV interests.
Rupert Murdoch tries to buy U.S. presidency
http://tinyurl.com/ab3y6nl
Federal Police investigating Murdoch
http://afr.com/p/business/marketing_media/federal_police_join_news_probe_s0h2FfmrnzYD7dIbq8s04L
Murdoch hiring hackers to kill off opposition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNAsnY1Pbj8&list
In Australia Murdoch doing the same
http://afr.com/p/business/marketing_media/pay_tv_piracy_hits_news_OV8K5fhBeGawgosSzi52MM
Paul Keating's assessment of Rupert Murdoch as "a big bad bastard"
"Murdoch 'not fit' to run News Corp" < http://tinyurl.com/7njegk3
"Rupert Murdoch has let it be known within his organisation that Australia
needs change in Canberra and his editors were simply doing his bidding"
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12041

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"Don McKenzie" <5V@2.5A> wrote in message
news:b5b7lnFsr32U1@mid.individual.net...

On 22-Jul-13 11:01 AM, Don McKenzie wrote:

Hmmm...

I have the NBN pulling in cables at the top end of my street this morning.

Sounds like you are about get lucky.

Don...

--
Don McKenzie

$30 for an Olinuxino Linux PC:
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/olinuxino.html

The World's Cheapest Computer:
DuinoMite the PIC32 $25 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Add VGA Monitor/TV, and PS2 Keyboard, or use USB Terminal
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.

atec77 · Jul 28, 2013

On 28/07/2013 1:24 PM, Damian wrote:

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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How about you blokes trim some , damo either trim which is an
effective weapon against the qwanker bot or get plonked for being a pita

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for FTTN
instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on top
of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS
that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre
network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.

Only to those as stupid as you.

I have said repeatedly now that we should be providing
a decent broadband service for those who can't currently
have one if they want one, and that how that is best done
varys with where they are.

That's pretty vague, isn't it?!!

Nope.

Seriously lacks any technical details.

Nope, those are there right now.

How can the outback towns get at least 20Mbps?!!

They dont need at least 20Mbps.

ADSL2+ will do them fine and most of them have that right now.

The problem isnt the towns, its those well out of the towns.

Is is possible the current satellite interenet technology to provide a
minimum satisfactory speed?!

Yes.

What about the towns(either regional outback ones or not so regional)
that need 50Mbps speed(at least)?!

None of them need anything like that.

You need to give some tech details,

Nope.

otherwise they are just sweet words that may turn bitter.

Nope.

According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I have never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like
that.

Yes, you said something remotely resemble that.

Nope.

I quote you here,

"I just dont see any reason to be spending anything like $50B NOW when
most of us have
a very viable broadband service if we want it."

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that MOST OF US is nothing even remotely
resembling anything like ALL OF US.

"It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband service to
those who can't currently have one

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that THOSE WHO CAN'T CURRENTLY HAVE
ONE is nothing even remotely resembling anything
like ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

using whatever makes the most sense with those who can't currently have a
decent broadband service."

And you provide us very little detail how you gonna do that!

Because anyone with even half a clue who has been following
the debate about the NBN knows that that is by using whatever
of ADSL2+. wireless the way the NBN is doing it right now, and
satellite and FTTP are the way to do that.

If that's the case why are you saying FTTP NBN is a waste?!!!

I'm dying here to hear more details of your broadband plan for the
nation.

Then just die quietly.

'Whatever' isn't good enough.

You get no say what so ever on what is or is not good enough.

Pollies like to hear details regardless of whether they can understand it
or not.

No one with even half a clue actually gives a flying red fuck
what those stupid clowns might or might not like to hear.

Compare the coalition's rejigged-one-more-time-'cause-we've-got-NFI
policy to that of roadworks. Let's take the example of majority of the
M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba.

They had the ability to implement three lanes in each direction when
it was being built, for nominally 15% more than the cost of building
two lanes in each direction - but they chose not to. Now the widening
of the road to three lanes each way is costing them 150% of the
original building cost.

Let's pluck an exemplaery figure out of my arse - if the original cost
of building the M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba was $1B, it would've cost
them $1.15B to make it a six-lane road - but it's now costing them a
total (including original woks) of $2.5B.

As financially painful as it might be in the short term, a complete
investment in infrastructure will yield massive rewards going into the
future without constantly "sticky-taping" costly improvements as the
need arises for each.

That doesn't mean to say I fully agree with the way in which it was
implemented; engaging contractors with NFI to do the job just because
they said they can was an utterly idiotic decision to make, not at all
different to the way in which the "free roof insulation" scheme was
implemented.

Ultimately, we _do_ need this type of infrastructure if we're to even
survive through the remainder of the century - we no longer have a
viable manufacturing industry, most of our intellectual resources are
being shipped out, and anybody who thinks we're getting a fair price
for the ore that's being dug out of our land is an idiot.

Without providing technological infrastrucutre, it won't be long
before we end up being another Greece. Why do you think India's
booming? It's not because of their natural resources and definitely
not because of their capable citizens - it's because their government
was astute enough to realise that providing appropriate tools would
allow even incompetents to flourish in the new world economy.

Rod Speed · Jul 28, 2013

"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for
FTTN instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!

Yep, back when he was the coalition leader.

I find it hard to believe!!!

Its true anyway.

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on top
of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.

Wrong.

It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS
that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre
network, eventually.

It is absolutely guaranteed to cost a lot more.

But, that's still debatable.

Nope.

He's capable of creative thinking and come up with better
solutions.

He didnt with that stupid FTTN approach.

That's probably the best he can do.

None of that is his. Its what the Dud proposed
in the election that binned Howard, with the coalition
and Turdbull proclaiming that it made absolutely no
sense at all and that wireless was the way to go.

He ain't got no chance stopping the NBN and leaving the things as it
is.

Wrong, as always.

And he didnt come up with a damned thing either,
let alone any creative thinking. FTTN was what was
proposed by the Dud long before he even got to
be PM and when he discovered that no one was
actually stupid enough to tender to build it, he
went for FTTP regardless of the cost in a desperate
attempt to preserve whatever vestige of credibility he
could manage out of that complete and utter fiasco.

Show me where he proposed FTTN initially!!

In the election that binned Howard and made him PM.

Can't find such record

You can't have looked very hard.

and can't remember him making an FTTN proposal.

Have a look at what he proposed in the
election campaign that binned Howard.

I only remember Turnball going on and on about it long before he
made it into a coalition broadband policy announcement recently.

Thats the problem with being a limp wristed
vegy, what matters thats between your ears
drips out of your ears and you dont have anything
left to remember the basics with anymore.

And FTTN is nothing new. Turnball didn't invent it, he's promoting
it.

He's not promoting a damned thing, he's stupidly saying
that that is what the coalition will now do instead of flogging
off what had been built of the NBN and going for wireless instead.

Coalition won't be able to shut the NBN, even if they come into
power by a landslide majority.

Corse they can. Its a govt operation,
they can pull the plug any time they like.

It's already begun and legally they can't stop it.

That is a bare faced pig ignorant lie.

Its a govt operation and they can
pull the plug any time they like.

Sensible approach for them to cut the cost of the project

Thats an entirely separate question to what they can do legally.

and the drag, is to implement Turnball's FTTN plan.

That would be completely stupid.

They should either continue with it or pull the plug on it.

That is doable, but not possible to shut the whole fibre NBN
project.

Wrong.

It's gone too far politically,

Wrong, fuck all of its been built and fuck all are using it
and they can just flog whats been built already anyway.

economically

Even sillier. Fuck all of the $50B has been spent already.

and legally for that.

You dont have a fucking clue on that. Its a govt operation,
they can pull the plug on it any time they like.

His idea is cost effective

Pigs arse it is given that it will have to be replaced by FTTP
eventually.

Yes, the keyword is 'eventually'.

Makes not sense to be doing it now when almost all of those
that want a decent broadband service already have one.

and doesn't hinder the future full fibre network layout.

But dramatically increases the cost of the FTTP we will have
eventually.

Possibly,......

Absolutely certainly.

but you are in no place to predict the outcomes of the future
economic circumstances and new technologies that may reduce the cost
of FTTP implementation.

Nothing is going to do that with the absolute vast bulk
of the cost, fiber down the streets and how thats done.

It's better approach than the silly drag & the budget inflation that
they've created with the current version of the NBN.

Its an off budget cost.

When future spending cuts will kick in for all the spending on NBN,
we may be fighting with our teeth and claws to stay on reasonably
good living conditions.

Even sillier. The govt budget has got sweet
fuck all to do with anyone's living conditions.

On the other hand, you don't believe in FTTN, FTTC, FTTH etc etc.

That is a bare faced like. I just dont see any reason to be
spending anything like $50B NOW when most of us have a very viable
broadband service if we want it.

It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband
service to those who can't currently have one using whatever
makes the most sense with those who can't currently have
a decent broadband service.

And what is that method that makes most sense according to you?!!

Varys with the place we are talking about.

Do you have a version of fast broadband for the country

We already have. What's best in a particular
area depends on the detail of that area.

Ok. So, somebody lives in or edge of the jungle 30kms from the nearest
exchange, would have ADSL without any issues, right?!

There is no jungle in this country.

And yes, some who are 30K from the nearest town
exchange can have adsl off a CMUX or RIM or even
one of those exchanges in a shipping container sized
thing that are so common in rural areas outside towns.

Or pretty damn fast satellite internet, right?!

Yes, that is what is done with the most remote communitys.

Clearly for new subdivisions, FTTP makes the most sense.

For areas outside the major towns where there is already
a decent broadband service, but not for the areas outside
those towns, it makes no sense to be doing FTTP.

In some areas what the NBN is doing with wireless makes sense.

or your solution is 'do something'?!

Nope.

You believe in leaving the PSTN, POTS as it is,

No I dont. I know that most are already using
voip and mobiles for most of their phone calls
and that it makes absolutely no sense whatever
to be spending anything like $50B providing
a phone service over the NBN when so few
actually use the PSTN for most of their phone
calls anymore. It makes a lot more sense to
leave the PSTN in place than it ever does to
rip it all out and replace it with FTTP.

Turnball's approach still leaves some parts of PSTN, won't it?!

All of it in fact.

So, why are you whinging about it?!

Because its completely stupid to be adding lots of nodes and
redoing the existing copper network to connect to those instead
of the exchange they currently go back to. It makes sense to
leave those alone when the customers on them currently
have a decent broadband service if they want one.

It makes absolutely no sense to be spending anything
like $50B on those at a time when the govt has plenty
of things that $50B can be better spent on.

That's a pretty good point.

Mine always are.

Can you point out few things that 50B should be spent on instead of NBN
and Gonski?!

Already did.

Traffic congestion/gridlock in Sydney.

Decent aged care facilitys for the increasing numbers who need that.

Waiting times for non urgent surgery right around the country.

Those alone are MUCH more important that providing TV
to the home when that is available right now quite adequately.

Still not clear about your expert solution to expand the ever
demanding need for bandwidth, both local and regional??!!!!

I've told you in this post alone. Provide a decent broadband
service for those who currently can't have one. Dont piss
anything like $50B against the wall ripping out what currently
provides a very decent broadband service for anyone who
wants one. If Murdoch doesnt like the fact that it can't be
used for the best delivery of PayTV, he can pay that $50B himself
or go and fuck himself if he can actually get it up anymore.

Ok Basically, you are saying this high speed internet NBN project
doesn't have anything to do with the need of average public or their
services.

Yes, because most of them can already have
a decent broadband service if they want one.

It's got more to do with the business needs of Billionaires like
Murdoch, right?!!

Just Murdoch in fact because he has a monopoly on the bulk of PayTV right
now.

The others are already doing it over the existing broadband services
fine.

He is too, but is demanding even more at taxpayer expense.

He got the cable service at taxpayer expense and
should be told to go and fuck himself on FTTP.

Besides the outcomes of an NBN is much much more than just
providing a phone service.

Sure, that was just a comment on your comment about the PSTN.

It's primary outcome is the far wider bandwidth via fibreoptics,
which open up the path to super fast internet, which may open up
opportunities for many many applications that we don't even haven't
got a clue right now.

That last is just plain silly. There are plenty of
places that have FTTP right now world wide.

Yeah, we already know that. Smaller countries like Korea, Japan, etc
are milking it.

But haven't produced ANY applications that
we dont even have a clue about right now.

May be we should wait and see.

Nope, they have had FTTP for quite a while
already and nothing special has turned up at all.

Japanese and Germans, (or Japs and Krouts as you affectionately call)
may come up with real applications for the future, where the fibre
network can be utilized cleverely.

Since some already have FTTP, we can wait and see if they
ever do and consider spending anything like $50B if they
do and we decide its worth that sort of money.

Having basic infrastructure does help lot of things that we may not have
a clue about yet.

It hasnt with FTTP where they have that.

But, the real question is how is too much and too soon. You are saying
the fibre NBN is a 'money pissing against wall' plan.

While ever all we can come up with that
works any better is video distribution.

I'm not sure yet. I can see it's a gamble for sure.

Its stupid to be spending anything like $50B without
knowing what it can deliver when there are plenty of
other things that are KNOWN to be much more useful
to spend $50B on.

Because there arent any that matter a damn.

That's not true.

Yes it is.

It's clearly demonstrated that certain businesses and medical
applications can benefit of speeds around 100Mbps.

Just video distribution in fact with businesses.

None with medical applications.

And even if it was true with medical applications, and its not, it only
makes sense to do FTTP for those where it does have any value.

Whether it's worth the 50B within few years, on tax payers arse?!! That
is definitely debatable.

Nope, we know its not when video distribution is quite adequate already.

You don't think we suburban goons don't deserve fibre?!

Its got nothing to do with deserve. What matters is whether
it makes any sense to spend anything like $50B right now
for what is undoubtedly better than what we have now,
but only really any better for PayTV distribution.

If you have indisputable evidence to support that statement, then the
current FTTP NBN(let alone Turnball's FTTN), is a clear scam played on
average tax payers pocket by big business goons by playing the
politicians.

Not that so much. Its actually what that fool the Dud chose
to go for when he discovered that no one was actually stupid
enough to tender for his previous hare brained scheme of FTTP.

And he did that without any analysis what so ever, he just
plucked it out of his arse to save his political skin when
he discovered that no one was actually stupid enough
to tender for his previous hare brained scheme of FTTN,
which he also plucked out of his lard arse in a desperate
attempt to get elected to govt from opposition.

But, that's a big if, from where I stand.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

You ain't a conspiracy theorist are you?!

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

I'm sure you know what you are talking about, right?!!

Yep.

Then again, traditionally Labor hasn't been easy to play around like
that by big business goons,

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

where the Libs are lot easier,

Even sillier.

since their desparation for conservative ideals
(regardless of calling themselves Libs).

Even sillier.

Lets not forget it's a right wing(not left wing) Labor leader who picked
a real big fight with miners, regarding restructing the tax system to
make them pay more tax.

In fact he did nothing of the sort and just blew both his feet
right off and got absolutely NOTHING in more tax out of them.

Nothing special has shown up with any of those.

That's absolutely silly.

Then you will be able to list all the stuff that has shown
up in those places that do have FTTP that we can't do
here. There aint any. None, nada, ziltch, not one.

That's quite a challenge. I can name a few.

No you can't.

Whether they matter to public in the big picture yet is something I'm
not sure.(No digital payTV ain't one of them)

We've had digital PayTV for a long time now.

But, definitely it will in the future.

Easy to claim.

Give me some time to work on that list, ok?!!!

Nope, if there was anything you wouldnt need any time at all.

the same way you believe in leaving the climate change as it is.

I have enough of a clue to realise that even if Australia
shut down all its power stations overnight, and banned
all cars overnight and everyone either walked or rode
a bike everywhere they wanted to go, that that would
have absolutely no effect what so ever on the world climate.

I haven't met anybody who claims that, given the time frame is
'overnight'.

The point is that that is the most dramatic approach that
could be taken and when that would have absolutely NO
effect what so ever on world climate, anything else will
have even less effect on world climate if it wasnt for the
fact that even less than nothing is still nothing.

Climate science and mathematics are not your domain??!!!

Wanking is clearly yours.

Ain't that everybody's??!!

Nope.

At least I don't need to rely on my wanking tool to open the iphone 5
sim slot like you do, eh?!! )

Just as well, you snapped yours off.

The problem is you ain't gonna be around to get your arse kicked
if you happen to be dead wrong, 'cos you will be already dead
dead.

I won't be wrong on what effect whatever Australia does has on
world climate.

Yeah, you say that,

Anyone with even half a clue does. Even that fool Flannery does.

Wonder why he's breaking our balls with all his climate action
proposals!!!!

Because he's a fool that doesnt have a fucking clue about anything at
all, ever.

but the problem is that goons like Alan Jones and Tony the Abattoir
are saying the same thing.

Doesnt matter a damn what they say, its true.

Yep, there won't be any noticeable effect what we do for climate
change in global scale, in your life time for sure.

Wont have any effect in anyone's lifetime, or their kids lifetime
or their grand kids lifetime either. None, zero, nada, not a razoo.

By that you mean you haven't got much of a clue about how the
biological life works on the planet, right?!

Thats talking about what climate change does to biological
life, not what anything AUSTRALIA does have any effect at all.

Imagine all the other countries adopting the same argument like yours
and do nothing, simply 'cos it won't have any effect.

They are doing that anyway.

Absolutely mad IMO.

Your opinion is completely irrelevant.

But, you sure do know a lot about geology, don't you?!

NBN FTTH has been a real white elephant giant tortoise so far, and
I'm bit sceptical about the catch phrase of 'fibre on a copper
budget'.

Yeah, its just another mindlessly glib line.

Sounds way too optimistic and unrealistic,

What he proposes with regard to doing FTTP significantly
cheaper isnt. The very fundamental problem with what he
proposes tho is that the cost of whats in each home or
premises is only a tiny part of the total cost of the NBN.

I presumed he knows his shit enough to know that.

Yes, its clearly just an attempt to do things better for RSPs
with the usual fudging the issue claiming lower costs.

So, you don't think he's not even marginally sincere?!!

I didnt say that, just that he is raving on about a small part of the
problem.

Yes, it does make sense to instead of going for a very fancy
complex NTU unique to this country to have the RSP provide
all the hardware in the house instead. But thats not going
to make much difference to the cost of the NBN now.

He got some vested interests to bullshit?!

He obviously has being an RSP himself.

The real reason the cost to the consumer keeps rising
over time in that graph from the NBN is because it has
to be done like that otherwise no one would ever be
stupid enough to sign up for an NBN service when
they can keep using the broadband they already
have for a MUCH lower cost.

NBN has been boasting about super fast and low cost internet.

Just like all spivs and con men do. The real cost is at
least $50B that someone is going to have to pay for.

True. But, shouldn't we gona have to spread a mesh of fibre all
around the suburban streets and regional main roads sooner or later?!

No, not when we currently have much better
things than that to spend anything like $50B on.

Yeah, that may make sense, but, what are those more important
things(other than Sydney traffic bottleneck)?!!

Already told you.

Like pissing money on off-shore processing in Nauru and PNG by giving
millions of our money to them,

Not even a single billion involved.

so their corrupted pollies can wank at banana trees with our money?!!

No banana trees in either of them.

'Cos I bet the rest of the country won't give a rat's poop about Sydney
traffic issue,

They do about the other ones.

mostly sydney dwellers give a shit about that.

Not just them, anyone who has a clue about the waste that produces.

Even traffic gridlock in Sydney alone is MUCH more
important and is wasting MUCH more money on all
those fools running their engines and moving nowhere.

By that I meant FTTP. Isn't that gona be an eventuality, unless some
genius comes up with a higer bandwidth wireless technology

Yes, but there are more important things to be spending $50B on right
now.

(without higher level of radioation, enough kill half of us by
cancer)?!

You dont get cancer from wireless transmissions that far
away from you. We've been doing that with TV for more
than half a century now at MUCH higher power levels and
with radio for even longer than that.

It's likely that won't cut it for higher bandwidth wireless technology.

It aint about power levels.

If we are looking at decent higher bandwidth wireless technology, then
we are looking at higher power micro waves,

Nope.

unless some genius come up with something unique.

Dont need that. The NBN is doing it already.

There's nothing unique about NBN.

Thats just plain wrong. The NTUs are unique world wide, stupidly.

Fibre has been around for a long time.

Yes, but FTTP hasnt.

It's indeed old technology rejuvenated.

Wrong, as always.

We already know what mobile phone radioation can do to our brain

No we dont. It doesnt do anything at all.

Obviously not to you.

Not to anyone else either.

But, the rest of us can be affected by mobile phone radiation.

Nope.

The researchers say so.

Like hell they do.

(and our arse and testicles)

Those even less than nothing.

Three guesses who that is going to be ?

Me an you?!!!. Well, It's me, for the most part, right?!

Nope.

Your great great great great grand children??!!

Nope.

Little green men?!!

That only if you've managed to produce any. Somthing tells me you
haven't!!!

Then you need a new hearing aid.

Hearing aid helps me to hear the nagging of your non existing great great
great great grand children??!!
How does that work?!

But, that's not gonna happen as far as lower cost part concerns,
right?!

And even their own 'business plan' admits that.

That's a worry.

Thats also why the NBN has gotten Telstra to rip
out all the copper and cable, so the consumer has
no choice but to use the NBN if they want a
broadband service other than wireless.

but can lead to real solutions on a much lower budget than the
current white elephant.

No, not that much lower, essentially because the
much simpler approach to the boxes in the house
is only a tiny part of the cost of the NBN.

Turnball's solutions aint' that bad,

Completely fucking useless in fact.

considering out current budget issues.

There are no current budget issues when the plug is pulled
on stupiditys like the NBN and Gonski and all the other

I bet my arse it ain't gonna happen.

Yes, the coalition is too stupid to do that with the NBN.

They arent with Gonski tho.

Yep, and if they do that. then to compensate for the generation of
illiterate kids we will be raising,

We didnt do anything like that before that fool Gonski
showed up.

Shouldn't we thank him with warm hearts for spending his own time,
energy and money on that project?!!

Nope, not when he's so stupid that he can't even manage
to work out that when the numbers of kids in schools keeps
dropping, that last thing we should be doing is pissing
billions of bucks more educating a shrinking number of kids.

So, we should spend that money ugrading the sydney road network

Yes.

and high speed railway projects, right?!!

Nope.

And perhaps upgrade all the inner city streets,

Nope.

so Packer boy can build more and more casinos, right?!!

Nope.

He obviously gives a clear shit about our future generation.

But doesnt have a fucking clue about what to do about that.

And you obviously have a clue?!!

Yep.

we can import Chinese kids as you promoted while ago.
It may make sense in the long run, 'cos it was the Chinese who may
have had tried to take over the country from Aborigenes, long before
Captain Jimmy the Cooker was taking a leak in the Botany Bay.

Like hell they did. They in fact cruised around even
as far as Africa, decided it was all too boring to bother
with and scrapped their entire ocean going fleet.

That's not what I heard.

Then you need to get a new hearing aid BAD.

My hearing is superb. as a matter of fact it's better than average.
My range expands into the higher frequency where most people can't hear.
Above 20kHz to be precise. Ain't that great?!!

Nope, completely useless in fact.

They were mining here already

Bullshit they were.

Of course they were man.

Nothing for them to mine.

They entered via the northern tip and have been trading with northern
aborigenes, long before the anglos showed up.

That wasnt the chinese.

and Dutch were here long before the Jimmy the Cooker showed up on the
beach for a piss.

Yes, but only by accident. Not deliberately.

Who said the Jimmy Cooker was here deliberately?!!

Corse he was.

He was bullshitting the British royalty to get into the history books by
fudging his records.

Nothing to do with British royalty, everything
to do with real science, the transit of Venus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook#First_voyage_.281768.E2.80.9371.29

And the polynesians took care of him for spreading all the diseases,

Not a fucking clue, as always.

but they were too late, weren't they?
Luckily for him, the aborigenes weren't anywhere as violent as
polynesians, so he did manage to contaminate here pretty well.
Hence, we are here, right?!!

Wrong. Some poms decided they needed a penal colony.

And they had enough of a clue to notice that what later became
Indonesia was a lot more useful to them than here too.

Besides, the way Gonski reforms are being tweaked, it can hardly be
called Gonski now.

Bullshit. If anything its even more stupid than Gonski proposed.

I didn't say it's modified in a better way.

NBN will go ahead regardless of who's coming to power, coalition can
only tweak it the way Turnball wants it

It remains to be seen if thats even possible.

Turn the Ball is a crafy fella.

Bullshit he is. He is so stupid that he didnt even notice
what those in his own party were interested in climate
change wise and pulled the plug on any possibility of
ever being PM and quit politics and only stayed in
politics when his nose was rubbed in what would
happen to the coalition with a by election in his seat.

Man, he lost to Tony the Abattoire by one ballot.
Doesn't that tell you something?!!

Yep, that some didnt see the assassination
of the leader so publicly was a great idea.

Well, it's not a great idea after all, it's the dumbest thing coaltion
did.

Nope, he was flushed where he belongs politically.

They would've had the upcoming election in their pockets, easily, if they
had kept Turnball.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof
that you have never ever had a fucking clue about
anything to do with politics or anything else either.

Now, they have Krudd the ultimate warrior to deal with,

Nope, to laugh at when gets flushed where he belongs.

and Tony the Abattoire is sweating hard.

Only because he rides that stupid bike of his.

On the other hand, there's no way to kill a leader in stealth mode, it
gonna be public one way or the other.

Wrong, as always.

And Aussies obviously don't like inner party dog fights and kinghits.
Krudd and Turnball's popularity is partly(or mainly) due to the underdog
effect.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof
that you have never ever had a fucking clue about
anything to do with politics or anything else either.

Even Johnny the Coward kept going on about an ETS before he was kicked
out.

Yes, he was that stupid.

I'm glad you see him that way.

He was even more stupid with his middle class welfare.

Turnball didn't do something off the grid by supporting the ETS.

Yes he did.

He's still in favour of ETS.

Yep, he actually is that stupid.

He's only bashing carbon tax to stick around for bit longer with Tony the
Abattoire, so when Abbot is flushed down the sewer, he gets his revenge
and his old job back.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof
that you have never ever had a fucking clue about
anything to do with politics or anything else either.

There are fair number of Libs who's in favour of it.

Fuck all in fact.

Just because many Libs follow lib philosophy doesn't necessarily mean
they live in a fantasy world like Tony the Abattoire.

Fuck all want any ETS at all.

And if Turnball is patient enough, he may even be the first President of
Australian Republic.

Not a chance, you watch.

Even if Abbot gets run over riding his stupid bike,
they won't be having Turdbull again, you watch.

Abbot will be covered in fresh sewage soon, underground. Wait and see.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof
that you have never ever had a fucking clue about
anything to do with politics or anything else either.

Then he won't have to worry too much about sniffing queen's bum.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof
that you have never ever had a fucking clue about
anything to do with politics or anything else either.

From what I know, he doesn't sniff royal bums and never has.

Irrelevant to whether they will ever have him again.

It is. Royal bum sniffers won't have much of a future here in the future.

You're projecting now.

He's a former lawyer, he will find a way.

Not a chance.

Besides, now you are insinuating the impossiblity of pulling the plug
on NBN 'cos it's a 'government operation'!!!

Nope, I JUST said that they have changed their mind on
pulling the plug on it. Nothing to do with that is possible.

Heavy contradiction on your side.

Nope, terminal stupidity on yours.

Are you sure you are not on a heavy dose of home brew?!!!

Nope, no dose at all in fact.

And what they will do when they find that it isnt.

or they can only slow it down.

They can pull the plug on it completely if they want to.

Not without making an absolute dog's breakfast mess.

Bullshit. So little of its been built that it would be a complete yawn.

I didn't mean just infastructure wise.

There would be no dogs breakfast any wise.

Lib voters aren't voting for libs to create more terminal stuff ups
than John Coward era.

They are pulling the plug on the Dud, you watch.

Ever wonder why he's heading towards 51/49 ??!!

Like hell he is.

So is everyone else.

Just like they did with NSW Labor, Qld Labor, etc etc etc.

Qld labor will kick back in next election with a vengance.

Pigs arse they will.

Newman made a dog's breakfast of economy and politics there and still
going. He will flushed down the sewer in next election, guaranteed.

You really should give up on that whacky weed, boy.

Its only Labor that ever has one term in govt.

If that's the case, it will start from Q'land,

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof
that you have never ever had a fucking clue about
anything to do with politics or anything else either.

put on your glasses and keep watching Newman getting flushed where he
belongs.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof
that you have never ever had a fucking clue about
anything to do with politics or anything else either.

He's just doing the usual slash and burn that all pollys
do when they get in in one hell of a landslide.

Howard did the same thing and survived fine.

Having said that, Tony the Abattoire is capable of many things.
That includes his ability on rapid mutation to breath in the ever
increasing 'invisible gas' without any issues on his lungs.

Not to mention it's slow enough as it is though.

And that might well be a good excuse to pull the plug
on it when they discover that FTTN just isnt feasible.

You say that. Couldn't find any records.

Have a look at the wealth of tenders to build it that Dud got.

Nothing there.

Precisely.

That's grossly incorrect.

Nope.

FTTN NBN, doesn't mean to take fibre into every single shack in
outback desert.

Yes, but even the Dud noticed that FTTN isnt viable, thats why
he went for FTTP after he had proposed doing FTTN instead.

With modifications and budget conscious tweaking, it's perfectly
feasible.

Its certainly possible, but it wont save a cent and so is pointless
because it requires the long term maintenance of the copper network.

Yeah, but that's necessary anyway under your scheme of ' do nothing'.

I never ever said anything about do nothing.

"Do something" then?!!!

I told you what should be done instead, time after time after time.

In one ear and straight out the other, as always with you.

The 50B or less investment should kick back within a reasonable time,

Its more work than FTTP, particularly once the basic
structure of the FTTP has all been designed already.

if it's implemented correctly and followed by economic policy

Waffle.

Yep. I don't have all the technical details of the policies yet, but I'm
working on it.

Can't even spell wanking.

Me or you?!!

You, stupid.

and projects to make a better use of FTTN NBN.

No such animal.

Didn't there is. it's a future possiblity with Turnball,

Nope.

but that's only if his Lib team can survive Krudd onslaught.

There is no onslaught, just more piss and wind.

Yeah, I can see and hear you and Libs pissing themselves 'cos of the Krudd
resurgence.

Obvious lie, you've clearly wanked yourself completely blind.

The problem is two major parties are desparately inventing slogans and
silly policies to protect the country from a non-existing boat people
threat,

Its not a threat. 18K arseholes jumping the queue in just 6 months with
the numbers increasing every day is something that needs to be fixed.

it's not likely they spend enough time to govern the future political
economy of the country.

None of those fools has any effect on the economy of the country.

Good reason not to piss money against walls on them then.

You were talking about the pollys there, not the arsehole queue jumpers.

So, pollys don't have any effect on the economy of the country?!!

Yep, its driven by other stuff entirely.

They are too busy inventing bullshit to get elected at any cost.
If they can violate the consitution enough to implement hugely
expensive off-shore processing,

The constitution is silent on those issues so it can't be violated.

they should be able to find a way to violate the constitution and
tweak the immigration act to not allow boat people to settle here
while allowing the boats to come onto the mainland and build 'huts'
similar to Nauru and Manus island.

Why should we build a damned thing for arsehole queue jumpers ?

"cos we are pissing out money against walls on countries like PNG,
Nauru, etc.

Nope, just doing what might see less arsehole queue jumpers show up.

Bullshit.

Fact.

it never have any valuable effect.

What Howard did did.

Just pissing our money.

Even if it doesnt stop anyone, they'll be in PNG, not here.

The new policy(no settlement of boat arrivals) may have effect.
But the policy will be short lived, since it's happening in PNG at a high
cost.

Nope, much cheaper than having them here.

It's better spent here, with certain tweaking on migration act.

Nope, that aint gunna stop them coming.

Didn't say it does. There's no need to stop them coming, 'cos it's not
possible.

Howard did it, its obviously possible.

And guaranteed to be cheaper, both on short and long run.

Even sillier.

Not if you can count.

You obviously can't.

But, the issue won't be any use for the major parties to get elected if
they abandon off-shore processing.
So, they won't do it.

They won't do it because it wont stop the arseholes coming.

It won't and there's no need to. Only need a deterrent.

Dumping them in PNG is that in spades.

Even the Dud knows that.

In other words, why not promote the 'no boat people settlement' policy
while processing them on-shore?!!

Because that won't stop them coming.

Nothing will stop them coming.

Bullshit. Shooting them dead if they show up in Australian waters would.

Blowing their boats out of the water and letting them drown would too.

Only a terminal mental patient would do that.

Just rubbing your stupid nose in that lie.

It's bullshit to think we can.

Howard's policy showed we can.

Bullshit

Fact.

Coward didn't show jackshit. Boats still kept coming,

Like hell they did.

you just don't know it.

Nothing to know.

You can only control it,

The Dud has done nothing of the sort.

A THOUSAND A FUCKING WEEK NOW.

and that's exactly what we should focus on,

We focus on the THOUSAND A FUCKING WEEK instead.

without pissing our money on little pacific islanders.

We can only manage it to suit our resources.

Bullshit.

And discourage them to get on boats using our on-shore policies.

Not even possible.

Perfectly possible, if we get the party politics out of it.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.

We should outlaw major parties using boat people to get elected.

Completely off with the fucking fairys, as always.

We will still get boats landing on shores and them coming here and
living here illlegally.
That's been happening for a long time.
We can't protect every sqaure inch of the Australian coastal sea.

We can do what sees them decide to stop coming.

We can do whatever we can. The boats will keep sneaking in.

The didnt with Howard.

It will ge an ongoing struggle for them to get here and we to control it.
And that's the way it's going to be.

Nope, you watch.

Making it clear to them that they will never be accepted here and
will end up in some armpit of the world like PNG might well do.

I bet the boat numbers and deaths will drop, when the so called
economic migrants realize that they get to go to detention
straightaway and then get deported.

Its going to drop much more if they get dumped in PNG instead.

It will with the new Krudd slogan, but at a very high cost to taxpayers.

Nope, it cost peanuts compared with letting anyone who wants to
show up here.

Bullshit!

Fact.

That's why it's only for twelve months.

Like hell it is.

You wait and watch.
As soon as Krudd wins the election,

When he loses the election, he will be flushed where he belongs, you watch.

his focus will be on other things.

Yeah, like what he's gunna do outside politics.

With a bit of luck he'll hang himself.

Same with the Libs, until the next next election comes closer.

Nope, they'll have been elected and will have to do something
about the THOUSAND A FUCKING WEEK that the Dud produced.

Not sure what happens after that.

They've stopped coming because PNG is
much worse than where they are coming from.

For ecomomic boat arrivals, yet. But, there are plenty of desparate
refugees among them.

None of them want to end up in PNG either.

And there is nothing so called about it, they are just economic
migrants.

That's bullshit.

Its fact.

Absolute bullshit.

Its a fact.

Believing in bullshit ain't gonna fix the issue.

The Dud fixed it great, eh ? ONLY A THOUSAND A FUCKING WEEK.

Even libs don't believe in that.
Bob Carr mangled something like that, but that's just empty pre-election
slogans.

But doesn't negate the fact that we can't take them all.

So we need to make it clear to them that they will end up in
PNG and be much worse off there than were they came from.

Yes, we do need to make 'it clear', but without pissing and shitting on
ourselves.

You're the only one doing that.

That way, the billions that's being pissed against the wall to deter
people smugglers using off-shore processing, won't be necessary.

Wrong. Thats the only thing that has any possibility of stopping them.

You can't stop them.

Howard did.

Coward didn't do jackshit other than wanking along with Bush.

You can only manage to a level that it won't be a pain in the arse for
the Australian public.

Bullshit.

Fact.

And that money may as well put into the NBN and Gonski reforms.

There are much better things to put it into.

That's debatable.

Nope.

spending like a drunken sailor that Labor has done ever
since the voters were actually stupid enough to make
the Dud PM.

They were almost stupid enough to make a Coward with a half brain, PM
for a decade. So, anything can happen in this country. Take my word on
that, dude.

Nope, I'll flush it where it belongs, dud.

KRudd was the best they ever did with democracy. Beating was good
too. The rest were sleepwalkers.

He'll be flushed where he belongs, just like Cheating was.

Whitless in spades.

Yep. You are eating thanks to them.

Pigs arse I am.

You should kiss Labor pollys arses for keep you going.

Without his medicare, you will be lost under the beds of public
hospitals.

Even sillier.

And the maggots will still refuse to get anywhere near you. ;-)

So, show some gratitute old timer,

That fool didnt do a damned thing for me except provide a
bit of entertainment when he was flushed where he belongs.

Same with the Dud, you watch.

I've already had that when Juliar flushed herself too.

Lets hope you get the same entertainment when Libs get flushed in this
election.

Some should take him out the back and put a bullet in the back of
the neck.

Oh, you violent violent man!!! )

I didnt say I'd to that myself.

Carl Williams didn't do most of his killings by himself either.
I'm sure you've got enough saving to hire a hit man.

You dont need to pay loonys anything much.

The trick is to run barefoot thru the dog shit between their ears.

Well, that's democracy. If you know a better political system and a
polity, feel free to share with us.

Just how many of you are there between those ears, boy ?

We carked it, attempting on Marx' version of communism, didn't we?!

Nope. We were never that stupid.

By that I didn't mean 'we' Aussie bummers, I meant the human race.

Fuck all of the human race was actually that stupid.

I know. Only super humans like you are not stupid, right?!!

I know, you've never been outside the country,

Guess who has got egg all over its silly little face, yet again.

I've spent a lot more time out of the country than you have, boy.

Impossible. I've spend more time overseas than my half life time, so far.

since you are scared crap of flying(or sailing).

Unlikely given that I have owned and flown a number of planes, child.

You are bullshitting man.

So, this is the only landscape you know about, right?!

Wrong, as always.

Where else?! X'mas island?!!

Problem is that, I don't think you got balls to do the things you
would like to do, right?!!! )

You have absolutely no idea how many I have done that to already.

Have a look at what happened to a sysop in fidonet sometime.

Hint: He's dead.

Crap!!! You killed a fidonet sysop?!! Man, you should to some time for
that. )

I should be rewarded and was.

Care to share how you were rewarded??!!

He was gone.

And that's a reward?! Man, you are a pretty evil little old fella. )

I'm hoping to find a way to introduce you to Carl William's cell
mate.

Taint gunna happen, he's never gunna get out now.

On 17th July 2013 I delivered a talk at the CommsDay Wholesale
and Data Centre Summit in Sydney about the NBN called The Ideal
Wholesale NBN Market. Simon Hackett, Internode founder

This talk proposes just a few of the many ways in which the
build cost, build time, and operating cost of the FTTH NBN could
be lowered (perhaps dramatically lowered) by auditing the entire
existing design and by applying the fruits of some lateral
thinking about what is really needed to make the network work
and what the network can do without.

Rod Speed · Jul 28, 2013

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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for
FTTN instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on top
of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS
that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre
network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.
According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I was only agreeing with "But his approach will cost even more than
FTTP will." - I don't see anything from him unless someone else quotes
it, and in this instance that's all I saw.

Decent broadband perhaps for 70+-year-olds using the 'net to send
e-mails to their great grandchildren, but FFS, even Romania has better
'net connectivity than Australia. We entirely skipped VDSL+, a
technology which could've bought us several more years of speed with
zero cabling outlay (and relatively small equipment outlay at the
exchanges).

I have a friend in Romania. They have decent cable internet there as
well.
Yes, I think VDSL has been overlooked here for whatever the reason.

IMO, Fibre NBN is a gamble

No it isnt, just a waste of money.

That depends

and a good one.

No, just a waste of money.

That depends

But we should've debated and researched it lot more before going ahead
with the current FTTP version of the NBN.

Your clown pulled it out of the hat when he discovered that
no one was actually stupid enough to tender for his FTTN.

Somebody must have deleted it,

Nope.

'cos i can't find it anywhere.

Because you wanked yourself completely blind.

Got any links, dude?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network#Initial_failed_federal_government_RFP_2007.2F09

I think it was implemented bit too soon without enough consultation and
research.

And without any attempt to justify spending $50B when most
of us can have a very decent broadband service either.

Wonder why all the outback towns and many regional areas are hopeless when
it comes to 'decent' broadband.

They aren't. They ALL have ADSL2+ available to anyone who wants it.

Similar thing happened with the Home Insulation Scheme as well

It happened with every single thing that terminal fuckwit did in fact.

Yeah, I know, J. Coward was that stupid, other than his federal bill on
gun control on looneys.

Rod Speed · Jul 28, 2013

"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

On 17th July 2013 I delivered a talk at the CommsDay Wholesale
and Data Centre Summit in Sydney about the NBN called
"The Ideal Wholesale NBN Market". Simon Hackett, Internode founder

This talk proposes just a few of the many ways in which the build cost,
build time, and operating cost of the FTTH NBN could be lowered
(perhaps dramatically lowered) by auditing the entire existing design
and by applying the fruits of some lateral thinking about what is
really
needed to make the network work - and what the network can do without.

The author presents a good case based on his position as a
major Retail Service Provider. He is advocating handing over
a larger share of the cost, and therefore the profit, to RSPs.

Not that large a share, actually. And he is actually talking
about the very real problem that the cost to the RSP is
supposed to dramatically increase over time too.

The current NBN Co Network Terminating Unit has four
ports and can offer a choice of RSPs but Hackett wants
to alter the system so that there is only a single RSP and
even proposes that the RSP should supply the NTU.

Yes.

While Hackett is probably right and
the extra ports will be largely unused

I doubt it with PayTV and the net alone.

While operations like his and now iinet that he sold
out to are certainly interested in providing that along
with the net service, that isn't what Foxtel wants to see.

they provide a unique opportunity for imaginative extra services.

Yes, but with a significant cost in what ends
up in the consumer's place as he points out.

The provision of a free government (and other)
services port seems an excellent idea.

Makes more sense to have that included in
the PayTV side of things, but at no cost for
those who just want the free to air channels.

Eliminating the POTS ports would also channel
the supply of telephone services via an RSP

Not necessarily with so many doing that
stuff with the mobile phone system now.

whereas the NBN Co design allows a telephone-only
connection using the customers existing telephones.

Yes, but as he points out, at a very significant cost for
those phone only connections, for what is as he points out
something that is seen with fewer and fewer customers now.

Does it actually make any real sense to be ripping out all that
POTS copper and replacing it with a much more expensive
way of providing POTS services for those customers ?

The reason the NBN wants to do that is because you then
have no choice but to use the NBN because the copper is
gone and they then can claim that most use the NBN service.

But in reality most would just use a mobile phone if the copper
is ripped out, most of them wouldn't bother with the NBN unless
they are too stupid to work out how to use a mobile phone and
just want someone to do everything for free and carry on regardless
and in effect by grossly subsidised by everyone else for that approach.

His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect
also limits competition. I believe the additional points of
interconnect were added at the instigation of the ACCC
because they would allow more localised service providers

But there are in fact fuck all of those left anymore for various reasons.

Does it really make any sense to be forcing everyone who
wants to operate nationally to be spending a hell of a lot more
just so almost no one can do a local service more cheaply ?

and to avoid making existing telco's fibre useless.
They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

And dramatically so too.

The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes

And its clear its only a small part of the total cost
of the NBN even if he doesn't spell that out himself.

let alone an estimate of the added costs to the consumer.

He did claim it wouldn't cost much more at and is
likely right about that with the RSP provided NTU.

I agree that the cost of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised.

I don't when most of us already have a decent broadband service.

We don't.

We do.

Most of us do much more than usenet and wikepedia, etc surfing.
We download and upload a fair bit.

ADSL2+ and cable are fine for that.

Bandwidth demand due to audio-video material is growing rapidly.

Works fine over ADSL2+ and cable.

I don't see that transferring a small fraction of those
costs to the consumer via the RSP is a benefit

And it can only be a small fraction.

especially if it limits access to the NBN.

It doesn't.

Rod Speed · Jul 28, 2013

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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for
FTTN instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on top
of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the PSTN/POTS
that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into full fibre
network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.

Only to those as stupid as you.

I have said repeatedly now that we should be providing
a decent broadband service for those who can't currently
have one if they want one, and that how that is best done
varys with where they are.

That's pretty vague, isn't it?!!

Nope.

Seriously lacks any technical details.

Nope, those are there right now.

How can the outback towns get at least 20Mbps?!!

They dont need at least 20Mbps.

ADSL2+ will do them fine and most of them have that right now.

The problem isnt the towns, its those well out of the towns.

Is is possible the current satellite interenet technology to provide a
minimum satisfactory speed?!

Yes.

What about the towns(either regional outback ones or not so regional)
that need 50Mbps speed(at least)?!

None of them need anything like that.

You need to give some tech details,

Nope.

otherwise they are just sweet words that may turn bitter.

Nope.

According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I have never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like
that.

Yes, you said something remotely resemble that.

Nope.

I quote you here,

"I just dont see any reason to be spending anything like $50B NOW when
most of us have
a very viable broadband service if we want it."

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that MOST OF US is nothing even remotely
resembling anything like ALL OF US.

"It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband service
to those who can't currently have one

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that THOSE WHO CAN'T CURRENTLY HAVE
ONE is nothing even remotely resembling anything
like ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

using whatever makes the most sense with those who can't currently have
a decent broadband service."

And you provide us very little detail how you gonna do that!

Because anyone with even half a clue who has been following
the debate about the NBN knows that that is by using whatever
of ADSL2+. wireless the way the NBN is doing it right now, and
satellite and FTTP are the way to do that.

If that's the case why are you saying FTTP NBN is a waste?!!!

Because it costs a lot more than $50B.

I'm dying here to hear more details of your broadband plan for the
nation.

Then just die quietly.

'Whatever' isn't good enough.

You get no say what so ever on what is or is not good enough.

Pollies like to hear details regardless of whether they can understand
it or not.

No one with even half a clue actually gives a flying red fuck
what those stupid clowns might or might not like to hear.

Compare the coalition's rejigged-one-more-time-'cause-we've-got-NFI
policy to that of roadworks. Let's take the example of majority of
the M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba.

They had the ability to implement three lanes in each direction when
it was being built, for nominally 15% more than the cost of building
two lanes in each direction - but they chose not to. Now the widening
of the road to three lanes each way is costing them 150% of the
original building cost.

Let's pluck an exemplaery figure out of my arse - if the original
cost of building the M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba was $1B, it
would've cost them $1.15B to make it a six-lane road - but it's now
costing them a total (including original woks) of $2.5B.

As financially painful as it might be in the short term, a complete
investment in infrastructure will yield massive rewards going into
the future without constantly "sticky-taping" costly improvements as
the need arises for each.

That doesn't mean to say I fully agree with the way in which it was
implemented; engaging contractors with NFI to do the job just because
they said they can was an utterly idiotic decision to make, not at
all different to the way in which the "free roof insulation" scheme
was implemented.

Ultimately, we _do_ need this type of infrastructure if we're to even
survive through the remainder of the century - we no longer have a
viable manufacturing industry, most of our intellectual resources are
being shipped out, and anybody who thinks we're getting a fair price
for the ore that's being dug out of our land is an idiot.

Without providing technological infrastrucutre, it won't be long
before we end up being another Greece. Why do you think India's
booming? It's not because of their natural resources and definitely
not because of their capable citizens - it's because their government
was astute enough to realise that providing appropriate tools would
allow even incompetents to flourish in the new world economy.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for
FTTN instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on
top of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the
PSTN/POTS that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into
full fibre network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.
According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I was only agreeing with "But his approach will cost even more than
FTTP will." - I don't see anything from him unless someone else quotes
it, and in this instance that's all I saw.

Decent broadband perhaps for 70+-year-olds using the 'net to send
e-mails to their great grandchildren, but FFS, even Romania has better
'net connectivity than Australia. We entirely skipped VDSL+, a
technology which could've bought us several more years of speed with
zero cabling outlay (and relatively small equipment outlay at the
exchanges).

I have a friend in Romania. They have decent cable internet there as
well.
Yes, I think VDSL has been overlooked here for whatever the reason.

IMO, Fibre NBN is a gamble

No it isnt, just a waste of money.

That depends

and a good one.

No, just a waste of money.

That depends

But we should've debated and researched it lot more before going ahead
with the current FTTP version of the NBN.

Your clown pulled it out of the hat when he discovered that
no one was actually stupid enough to tender for his FTTN.

Somebody must have deleted it,

Nope.

'cos i can't find it anywhere.

Because you wanked yourself completely blind.

You are bullshitting, aren't you?!

Got any links, dude?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network#Initial_failed_federal_government_RFP_2007.2F09

Come on. you can do better. There's nothing there about any FTTN by Krudd.
Find me the tender papers you are bragging about.

I think it was implemented bit too soon without enough consultation and
research.

And without any attempt to justify spending $50B when most
of us can have a very decent broadband service either.

Wonder why all the outback towns and many regional areas are hopeless
when it comes to 'decent' broadband.

They aren't. They ALL have ADSL2+ available to anyone who wants it.

ADSL2+?! Where hav u been livign in dude?! outback Sydney?!
I warned you about that cheap brew.

Similar thing happened with the Home Insulation Scheme as well

It happened with every single thing that terminal fuckwit did in fact.

Yeah, I know, J. Coward was that stupid, other than his federal bill on
gun control on looneys.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Bob Milutinovic" <cognicom@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for
FTTN instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing the
whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on
top of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the
PSTN/POTS that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards, into
full fibre network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.

Only to those as stupid as you.

I have said repeatedly now that we should be providing
a decent broadband service for those who can't currently
have one if they want one, and that how that is best done
varys with where they are.

That's pretty vague, isn't it?!!

Nope.

Seriously lacks any technical details.

Nope, those are there right now.

How can the outback towns get at least 20Mbps?!!

They dont need at least 20Mbps.

ADSL2+ will do them fine and most of them have that right now.

The problem isnt the towns, its those well out of the towns.

Is is possible the current satellite interenet technology to provide a
minimum satisfactory speed?!

Yes.

What about the towns(either regional outback ones or not so regional)
that need 50Mbps speed(at least)?!

None of them need anything like that.

You need to give some tech details,

Nope.

otherwise they are just sweet words that may turn bitter.

Nope.

According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I have never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like
that.

Yes, you said something remotely resemble that.

Nope.

I quote you here,

"I just dont see any reason to be spending anything like $50B NOW when
most of us have
a very viable broadband service if we want it."

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that MOST OF US is nothing even remotely
resembling anything like ALL OF US.

"It makes a lot more sense to be delivering a decent broadband service
to those who can't currently have one

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to
grasp that THOSE WHO CAN'T CURRENTLY HAVE
ONE is nothing even remotely resembling anything
like ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

using whatever makes the most sense with those who can't currently have
a decent broadband service."

And you provide us very little detail how you gonna do that!

Because anyone with even half a clue who has been following
the debate about the NBN knows that that is by using whatever
of ADSL2+. wireless the way the NBN is doing it right now, and
satellite and FTTP are the way to do that.

If that's the case why are you saying FTTP NBN is a waste?!!!

Because it costs a lot more than $50B.

So, you obviously have a plan to do FTTP NBN for less than $50B, right?

I'm dying here to hear more details of your broadband plan for the
nation.

Then just die quietly.

'Whatever' isn't good enough.

You get no say what so ever on what is or is not good enough.

Pollies like to hear details regardless of whether they can understand
it or not.

No one with even half a clue actually gives a flying red fuck
what those stupid clowns might or might not like to hear.

Compare the coalition's rejigged-one-more-time-'cause-we've-got-NFI
policy to that of roadworks. Let's take the example of majority of
the M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba.

They had the ability to implement three lanes in each direction when
it was being built, for nominally 15% more than the cost of building
two lanes in each direction - but they chose not to. Now the
widening of the road to three lanes each way is costing them 150% of
the original building cost.

Let's pluck an exemplaery figure out of my arse - if the original
cost of building the M5 from Liverpool to Lakemba was $1B, it
would've cost them $1.15B to make it a six-lane road - but it's now
costing them a total (including original woks) of $2.5B.

As financially painful as it might be in the short term, a complete
investment in infrastructure will yield massive rewards going into
the future without constantly "sticky-taping" costly improvements as
the need arises for each.

That doesn't mean to say I fully agree with the way in which it was
implemented; engaging contractors with NFI to do the job just
because they said they can was an utterly idiotic decision to make,
not at all different to the way in which the "free roof insulation"
scheme was implemented.

Ultimately, we _do_ need this type of infrastructure if we're to
even survive through the remainder of the century - we no longer
have a viable manufacturing industry, most of our intellectual
resources are being shipped out, and anybody who thinks we're
getting a fair price for the ore that's being dug out of our land is
an idiot.

Without providing technological infrastrucutre, it won't be long
before we end up being another Greece. Why do you think India's
booming? It's not because of their natural resources and definitely
not because of their capable citizens - it's because their
government was astute enough to realise that providing appropriate
tools would allow even incompetents to flourish in the new world
economy.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"atec77" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kt23g0$ibo$1@dont-email.me...

On 28/07/2013 1:24 PM, Damian wrote:
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5alt4Fp6abU1@mid.individual.net...

How about you blokes trim some , damo either trim which is an effective
weapon against the qwanker bot or get plonked for being a pita

No man. We are having fun here. Very intelligent debate indeed.
There will be solutions for the nation in the end of this by Rod.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5jpspFn6qbU1@mid.individual.net...

"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
news:kt22j3$frn$1@dont-email.me...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5alt4Fp6abU1@mid.individual.net...
Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

On 17th July 2013 I delivered a talk at the CommsDay Wholesale
and Data Centre Summit in Sydney about the NBN called
"The Ideal Wholesale NBN Market". Simon Hackett, Internode founder

This talk proposes just a few of the many ways in which the build
cost,
build time, and operating cost of the FTTH NBN could be lowered
(perhaps dramatically lowered) by auditing the entire existing design
and by applying the fruits of some lateral thinking about what is
really
needed to make the network work - and what the network can do without.

The author presents a good case based on his position as a
major Retail Service Provider. He is advocating handing over
a larger share of the cost, and therefore the profit, to RSPs.

Not that large a share, actually. And he is actually talking
about the very real problem that the cost to the RSP is
supposed to dramatically increase over time too.

The current NBN Co Network Terminating Unit has four
ports and can offer a choice of RSPs but Hackett wants
to alter the system so that there is only a single RSP and
even proposes that the RSP should supply the NTU.

Yes.

While Hackett is probably right and
the extra ports will be largely unused

I doubt it with PayTV and the net alone.

While operations like his and now iinet that he sold
out to are certainly interested in providing that along
with the net service, that isn't what Foxtel wants to see.

they provide a unique opportunity for imaginative extra services.

Yes, but with a significant cost in what ends
up in the consumer's place as he points out.

The provision of a free government (and other)
services port seems an excellent idea.

Makes more sense to have that included in
the PayTV side of things, but at no cost for
those who just want the free to air channels.

Eliminating the POTS ports would also channel
the supply of telephone services via an RSP

Not necessarily with so many doing that
stuff with the mobile phone system now.

whereas the NBN Co design allows a telephone-only
connection using the customers existing telephones.

Yes, but as he points out, at a very significant cost for
those phone only connections, for what is as he points out
something that is seen with fewer and fewer customers now.

Does it actually make any real sense to be ripping out all that
POTS copper and replacing it with a much more expensive
way of providing POTS services for those customers ?

The reason the NBN wants to do that is because you then
have no choice but to use the NBN because the copper is
gone and they then can claim that most use the NBN service.

But in reality most would just use a mobile phone if the copper
is ripped out, most of them wouldn't bother with the NBN unless
they are too stupid to work out how to use a mobile phone and
just want someone to do everything for free and carry on regardless
and in effect by grossly subsidised by everyone else for that approach.

His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect
also limits competition. I believe the additional points of
interconnect were added at the instigation of the ACCC
because they would allow more localised service providers

But there are in fact fuck all of those left anymore for various
reasons.

Does it really make any sense to be forcing everyone who
wants to operate nationally to be spending a hell of a lot more
just so almost no one can do a local service more cheaply ?

and to avoid making existing telco's fibre useless.
They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

And dramatically so too.

The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes

And its clear its only a small part of the total cost
of the NBN even if he doesn't spell that out himself.

let alone an estimate of the added costs to the consumer.

He did claim it wouldn't cost much more at and is
likely right about that with the RSP provided NTU.

I agree that the cost of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised.

I don't when most of us already have a decent broadband service.

We don't.

We do.

Most of us do much more than usenet and wikepedia, etc surfing.
We download and upload a fair bit.

ADSL2+ and cable are fine for that.

Bandwidth demand due to audio-video material is growing rapidly.

Works fine over ADSL2+ and cable.

Wonder why it's not readiily available in outback towns!
You may need to get out more and see if you can walk.
Miracles do happpen, you know that.

I don't see that transferring a small fraction of those
costs to the consumer via the RSP is a benefit

And it can only be a small fraction.

especially if it limits access to the NBN.

It doesn't.

Rod Speed · Jul 28, 2013

"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
news:kt2pta$80s$1@dont-email.me...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Bob Milutinovic" <cognicom@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b59h1mFh9ksU1@mid.individual.net...
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for
FTTN instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that
wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing
the whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on
top of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the
PSTN/POTS that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards,
into full fibre network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things do
happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.
According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I was only agreeing with "But his approach will cost even more than
FTTP will." - I don't see anything from him unless someone else
quotes it, and in this instance that's all I saw.

Decent broadband perhaps for 70+-year-olds using the 'net to send
e-mails to their great grandchildren, but FFS, even Romania has
better 'net connectivity than Australia. We entirely skipped VDSL+, a
technology which could've bought us several more years of speed with
zero cabling outlay (and relatively small equipment outlay at the
exchanges).

I have a friend in Romania. They have decent cable internet there as
well.
Yes, I think VDSL has been overlooked here for whatever the reason.

IMO, Fibre NBN is a gamble

No it isnt, just a waste of money.

That depends

and a good one.

No, just a waste of money.

That depends

But we should've debated and researched it lot more before going ahead
with the current FTTP version of the NBN.

Your clown pulled it out of the hat when he discovered that
no one was actually stupid enough to tender for his FTTN.

Somebody must have deleted it,

Nope.

'cos i can't find it anywhere.

Because you wanked yourself completely blind.

You are bullshitting, aren't you?!

Got any links, dude?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network#Initial_failed_federal_government_RFP_2007.2F09

Come on. you can do better. There's nothing there about any FTTN by Krudd.

Bullshit. Thats what that para and the one after is says very explicitly
indeed.

Find me the tender papers you are bragging about.

Go and find them for yourself, fuckwit.

I think it was implemented bit too soon without enough consultation
and research.

And without any attempt to justify spending $50B when most
of us can have a very decent broadband service either.

Wonder why all the outback towns and many regional areas are hopeless
when it comes to 'decent' broadband.

They aren't. They ALL have ADSL2+ available to anyone who wants it.

ADSL2+?!

Yep.

Where hav u been livign in dude?! outback Sydney?!
I warned you about that cheap brew.

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet fucking paper bag.

Similar thing happened with the Home Insulation Scheme as well

It happened with every single thing that terminal fuckwit did in fact.

Yeah, I know, J. Coward was that stupid, other than his federal bill on
gun control on looneys.

atec77 · Jul 28, 2013

On 28/07/2013 8:08 PM, Damian wrote:

"atec77" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kt23g0$ibo$1@dont-email.me...
On 28/07/2013 1:24 PM, Damian wrote:
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5alt4Fp6abU1@mid.individual.net...

How about you blokes trim some , damo either trim which is an effective
weapon against the qwanker bot or get plonked for being a pita

No man. We are having fun here. Very intelligent debate indeed.
There will be solutions for the nation in the end of this by Rod.

buhbye

--

X-No-Archive: Yes

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5kaeeFqjmdU1@mid.individual.net...

"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Bob Milutinovic" <cognicom@gmail.com> wrote in message
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"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
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"Bob Milutinovic" <cognicom@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ksqk3t$s7n$1@dont-email.me...
"Damian" <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:ksol43$vj1$1@dont-email.me...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b59h1mFh9ksU1@mid.individual.net...
Damian <damian_andrews75@yahoo.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

Trouble with that line is that Turdbull has decided to go for
FTTN instead.

For obvious reasons.

Yeah, someone eventually got it thru his thick skull that
wireless
was never gunna be able to do anything like what FTTP can do.

Are you telling me Turnball previously believed in wireless'ing
the whole country without fibre??!!
I find it hard to believe!!!

Turnball's not in the business of dragging projects forever on
top of budget blow outs.

But his approach will cost even more than FTTP will.

Not correct in terms of what he promises in terms of speed and
rollout completion.
It may or may not cost more to switch the remainder of the
PSTN/POTS that he leaves as it is from the local node onwards,
into full fibre network, eventually.
But, that's still debatable.

I'd have to agree with Rod in this instance (yes, strange things
do happen!).

But, you are not. Rod's against both governments and opposition's
version of NBN.
Where he stands is unclear.
According to him, we already have decent broadband all around the
country.

I was only agreeing with "But his approach will cost even more than
FTTP will." - I don't see anything from him unless someone else
quotes it, and in this instance that's all I saw.

Decent broadband perhaps for 70+-year-olds using the 'net to send
e-mails to their great grandchildren, but FFS, even Romania has
better 'net connectivity than Australia. We entirely skipped VDSL+,
a technology which could've bought us several more years of speed
with zero cabling outlay (and relatively small equipment outlay at
the exchanges).

I have a friend in Romania. They have decent cable internet there as
well.
Yes, I think VDSL has been overlooked here for whatever the reason.

IMO, Fibre NBN is a gamble

No it isnt, just a waste of money.

That depends

and a good one.

No, just a waste of money.

That depends

But we should've debated and researched it lot more before going
ahead with the current FTTP version of the NBN.

Your clown pulled it out of the hat when he discovered that
no one was actually stupid enough to tender for his FTTN.

Somebody must have deleted it,

Nope.

'cos i can't find it anywhere.

Because you wanked yourself completely blind.

You are bullshitting, aren't you?!

Got any links, dude?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadband_Network#Initial_failed_federal_government_RFP_2007.2F09

Come on. you can do better. There's nothing there about any FTTN by
Krudd.

Bullshit. Thats what that para and the one after is says very explicitly
indeed.

So, who's wanked until going blind?! It ain't me!

There ain't anything there about Krudd proposed FTTN. Rudd's RFP doesn't say
anything about FTTN.
G9 FTTN isn't affiliated with KRudd either. And KRudd was in opposition at
the time G9 announced their FTTN.

Find me the tender papers you are bragging about.

Go and find them for yourself, fuckwit.

Just cool down grandpa. It ain't worth a heart attack.

I think it was implemented bit too soon without enough consultation
and research.

And without any attempt to justify spending $50B when most
of us can have a very decent broadband service either.

Wonder why all the outback towns and many regional areas are hopeless
when it comes to 'decent' broadband.

They aren't. They ALL have ADSL2+ available to anyone who wants it.

ADSL2+?!

Yep.

Where hav u been livign in dude?! outback Sydney?!
I warned you about that cheap brew.

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet fucking paper bag.

Yep. You do it well for both of us.

All friggin outback towns I go to ain't got such animal.
It was, as a matter of fact, hopeless.

I warned you about eating too much red meat and drinking too much home brew,
didn't I?!!

)

Similar thing happened with the Home Insulation Scheme as well

It happened with every single thing that terminal fuckwit did in fact.

Yeah, I know, J. Coward was that stupid, other than his federal bill on
gun control on looneys.

Damian · Jul 28, 2013

"atec77" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kt2srh$lbu$1@dont-email.me...

On 28/07/2013 8:08 PM, Damian wrote:
"atec77" <"atec77 "@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kt23g0$ibo$1@dont-email.me...
On 28/07/2013 1:24 PM, Damian wrote:
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5alt4Fp6abU1@mid.individual.net...

How about you blokes trim some , damo either trim which is an
effective
weapon against the qwanker bot or get plonked for being a pita

No man. We are having fun here. Very intelligent debate indeed.
There will be solutions for the nation in the end of this by Rod.

buhbye

Sure.

--

X-No-Archive: Yes

Rod Speed · Jul 28, 2013

"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
news:kt2qdp$aeu$1@dont-email.me...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5jpspFn6qbU1@mid.individual.net...

"Damian" <damianandrews@y7mail.com> wrote in message
news:kt22j3$frn$1@dont-email.me...

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5alt4Fp6abU1@mid.individual.net...
Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> wrote
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Watch the 20 minute video on that page.

On 17th July 2013 I delivered a talk at the CommsDay Wholesale
and Data Centre Summit in Sydney about the NBN called
"The Ideal Wholesale NBN Market". Simon Hackett, Internode founder

This talk proposes just a few of the many ways in which the build
cost,
build time, and operating cost of the FTTH NBN could be lowered
(perhaps dramatically lowered) by auditing the entire existing design
and by applying the fruits of some lateral thinking about what is
really
needed to make the network work - and what the network can do
without.

The author presents a good case based on his position as a
major Retail Service Provider. He is advocating handing over
a larger share of the cost, and therefore the profit, to RSPs.

Not that large a share, actually. And he is actually talking
about the very real problem that the cost to the RSP is
supposed to dramatically increase over time too.

The current NBN Co Network Terminating Unit has four
ports and can offer a choice of RSPs but Hackett wants
to alter the system so that there is only a single RSP and
even proposes that the RSP should supply the NTU.

Yes.

While Hackett is probably right and
the extra ports will be largely unused

I doubt it with PayTV and the net alone.

While operations like his and now iinet that he sold
out to are certainly interested in providing that along
with the net service, that isn't what Foxtel wants to see.

they provide a unique opportunity for imaginative extra services.

Yes, but with a significant cost in what ends
up in the consumer's place as he points out.

The provision of a free government (and other)
services port seems an excellent idea.

Makes more sense to have that included in
the PayTV side of things, but at no cost for
those who just want the free to air channels.

Eliminating the POTS ports would also channel
the supply of telephone services via an RSP

Not necessarily with so many doing that
stuff with the mobile phone system now.

whereas the NBN Co design allows a telephone-only
connection using the customers existing telephones.

Yes, but as he points out, at a very significant cost for
those phone only connections, for what is as he points out
something that is seen with fewer and fewer customers now.

Does it actually make any real sense to be ripping out all that
POTS copper and replacing it with a much more expensive
way of providing POTS services for those customers ?

The reason the NBN wants to do that is because you then
have no choice but to use the NBN because the copper is
gone and they then can claim that most use the NBN service.

But in reality most would just use a mobile phone if the copper
is ripped out, most of them wouldn't bother with the NBN unless
they are too stupid to work out how to use a mobile phone and
just want someone to do everything for free and carry on regardless
and in effect by grossly subsidised by everyone else for that approach.

His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect
also limits competition. I believe the additional points of
interconnect were added at the instigation of the ACCC
because they would allow more localised service providers

But there are in fact fuck all of those left anymore for various
reasons.

Does it really make any sense to be forcing everyone who
wants to operate nationally to be spending a hell of a lot more
just so almost no one can do a local service more cheaply ?

and to avoid making existing telco's fibre useless.
They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

And dramatically so too.

The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes

And its clear its only a small part of the total cost
of the NBN even if he doesn't spell that out himself.

let alone an estimate of the added costs to the consumer.

He did claim it wouldn't cost much more at and is
likely right about that with the RSP provided NTU.

I agree that the cost of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised.

I don't when most of us already have a decent broadband service.

We don't.

We do.

Most of us do much more than usenet and wikepedia, etc surfing.
We download and upload a fair bit.

ADSL2+ and cable are fine for that.

Bandwidth demand due to audio-video material is growing rapidly.

Works fine over ADSL2+ and cable.

Wonder why it's not readiily available in outback towns!

With cable, thats because they arent enough of a market
to warrant cable, they get satellite PayTV instead.

ADSL2+ is available in most towns.

I don't see that transferring a small fraction of those
costs to the consumer via the RSP is a benefit

And it can only be a small fraction.

especially if it limits access to the NBN.

It doesn't.

Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

Damian

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atec77

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Rod Speed

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