audio recording on IC -help wanted

Lostgallifreyan wrote:
rebel <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:n93go3tg3rphsfa8d16fdfv0oo30198mvk@4ax.com:


Ian, do you have ANY evidence to back that claim re sunlight. AFAICT it is
urban legend, but tests we conducted - in a far sunnier climate than yours

;-) -

revealed not a single bit had changed in 2764's after a month in the

weather.

rebel

32S 116E



Should just be a matter of time, given photons as quanta. I couldn't do it
here, light not strong enough, but a less-than-annihilating focus with a
magnifier speeded it up enough to prove I could erase and re-write, so the
question is not whether unfiltered sunlight can do it, it's how long does it
take for a given strength.


Lostgallifreyan

51N 238W
Well I was taught many many moons ago, that an EPROM could get wiped by
sunlight and IIRC individual memory cells could be affected in a matter
of weeks of direct sunlight. Of course it would take *much* longer for
the whole EPROM to read blank - especially in our climate.

I *may* still have some of my notes from the time, but they are in dead
tree format and aren't practically searchable (not to mention lousy
handwriting). One thing to bear in mind when setting up such an
experiment is that ordinary window glass is a fairly effective UV filter
and also you need a sunlight recorder (the sort that burn trails accross
the daily paper if you want repeatable results. A lot of work for a
hobbyist for not much knowlage. ONE student engineer probably did some
research back in the early 70's and by the end of that decade, it was
commonly accepted that one *did* cover the windows. Whether later
generations of EPROMS are as vunerable to daylight as say a 1702, is
another matter. I suspect that in the interests of long term data
integrity, later chips may be effectively 'hardened'.

A 1702 datasheet gives the requirements for erasure as shortwave UV
(UVC) at 2537 angstroms with an integrated exposure of 6 watts/sec/cm^2.
UV levels at sea level (tropical) peak at about 0.13 milliwatt/cm^2 at
about 5000 angstroms. UVC is effectively totally removed by the ozone
layer. *IF* UVB was as effective as erasing eproms as UVC, then a 1702
would be totally wiped by 13 hours of direct sunlight. The intesity of
UVC at about 2500 angstrom *outside* the earth's atmosphere is of the
close order of 0.01 milliwatt/cm^2, so an EPROM in *ORBIT* protected
against UVB but *NOT* UVC would be totally erased in 600 hours of
sunlight. Add in the variable effects of cloud cover, strength of the
ozone layer, possible inadequate programming of the EPROM in the first
place, and reduced exposure to flip the first bit rather than wipe ther
whole array etc. I see no reason to doubt that the effective life of the
data in an unprotected EPROM exposed to direct sunlight is of the order
of weeks, not years. One thing is for sure, I am not digging out one of
my remaining few 1702s and breadboarding a programmer to do any tests :)

I do know that there are confirmed reports of ordinary bench or room
lighting upsetting the operation of windowed EEPROMS and for the price
of a roll of foil tape, one has guaranteed 100% effective light barrier.
I've never experimented with the effect, decapped DRAM with a suitable
lens over it was *much* more interesting!

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
 
robb wrote:

"Eric Smith" <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
news:m3wsqfq0s9.fsf@donnybrook.brouhaha.com...

robb wrote:

- both (OE) and (CE) work as surogate latch but which is

better

choice ?

Impossible to say without knowing the relative timing. Use a

dual-trace

scope, trigger on OE, and look at address lines (one at a time)

on other

trace. Make sure there seems to be enough setup time from

address valid

to the edge of OE. In other words, the scope trace for the

address line

shouldn't show any transitions for perhaps 20 ns before the

edge of OE.

(Look up the required address setup time in the data sheet.)

Then try the same experiment for CE.

If they both show sufficient set up time, it doesn't matter,

but I'd

choose the one that shows more.


hello Eric,

Thanks for reply,

OE shows the most delay before falling edge *BUT* that fall
occurs way ou ther about halfway accross/between the
Address/Data transitions which are maybe 150 ns wide.

CE drops about a fraction after the Address transition.

I will double check that to make sure i am being accurate but
that is my memory at the moment.

thanksfor help, ill double check,
robb
Dont over engineer it! You have *GOT* to latch the address off of the
/ALE signal, nothing else is guaranteed to have the right timing. It is
however usual to use a transparant latch with an 8051, so as Eric said,
you *might* be short of timing margin between the address/data bus
giving a valid address and /ale going low.

If yoy aren't happy enough that it works, you could check the timing.
With a storage scope, set a mid window Trigger on the -ve edge of /ALE
(pin 30 of the CPU IIRC) and check the address bus transition to -ve
/ALE edge timing. To measure it *without* a storage scope, you'll need
to trigger on the +ve edge of /ALE and to get a stable display you'll
need an EPROM full of NOPs (0x00) This will give you a nice steady
display on the scope as it results in the CPU address buss couting up in
binary and eventually wrapping round to zero. For this application ONLY
where the whole EPROM is full of the same value one of your 27c256 chips
should work just fine.

From the 87c257 data sheet, you only need 7 ns of margin between
address transition and -ve edge of /ALE. If you are short of timing
margin a 470R resistor inserted between pin 1 of the EPROm and /ALE on
pin 20, with a 33pF capacitor to ground from pin 1 should be enough
delay to fix it, but its a real kludge and I'd be ashamed to use it if
it wasn't needed :)

Me, I'd just be pragmatic and try heating and cooling the 8051 and the
working 87c257. Use freezer spray and a hair drier! You need to test
all combinations of EPROM and 8051 hot and cold:

ROM CPU
hot hot
hot cold
cold hot
cold cold

For each combination check it woks OK awithout crashing. If it passes,
as a one off unit it *will* be fine for operation at room temperature.


Enjoy :)
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
 
OOPS, I dropped the other groups by mistake!
Reposted as I dont know Robb's home group. Sorry everyone!

Lostgallifreyan wrote:
rebel <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:n93go3tg3rphsfa8d16fdfv0oo30198mvk@4ax.com:


Ian, do you have ANY evidence to back that claim re sunlight. AFAICT
it is
urban legend, but tests we conducted - in a far sunnier climate than
yours

;-) -

revealed not a single bit had changed in 2764's after a month in the

weather.

rebel

32S 116E



Should just be a matter of time, given photons as quanta. I couldn't
do it
here, light not strong enough, but a less-than-annihilating focus with a
magnifier speeded it up enough to prove I could erase and re-write,
so the
question is not whether unfiltered sunlight can do it, it's how long
does it
take for a given strength.


Lostgallifreyan

51N 238W
Well I was taught many many moons ago, that an EPROM could get wiped by
sunlight and IIRC individual memory cells could be affected in a matter
of weeks of direct sunlight. Of course it would take *much* longer for
the whole EPROM to read blank - especially in our climate.

I *may* still have some of my notes from the time, but they are in dead
tree format and aren't practically searchable (not to mention lousy
handwriting). One thing to bear in mind when setting up such an
experiment is that ordinary window glass is a fairly effective UV filter
and also you need a sunlight recorder (the sort that burn trails accross
the daily paper if you want repeatable results. A lot of work for a
hobbyist for not much knowlage. ONE student engineer probably did some
research back in the early 70's and by the end of that decade, it was
commonly accepted that one *did* cover the windows. Whether later
generations of EPROMS are as vunerable to daylight as say a 1702, is
another matter. I suspect that in the interests of long term data
integrity, later chips may be effectively 'hardened'.

A 1702 datasheet gives the requirements for erasure as shortwave UV
(UVC) at 2537 angstroms with an integrated exposure of 6 watts/sec/cm^2.
UV levels at sea level (tropical) peak at about 0.13 milliwatt/cm^2 at
about 5000 angstroms. UVC is effectively totally removed by the ozone
layer. *IF* UVB was as effective as erasing eproms as UVC, then a 1702
would be totally wiped by 13 hours of direct sunlight. The intesity of
UVC at about 2500 angstrom *outside* the earth's atmosphere is of the
close order of 0.01 milliwatt/cm^2, so an EPROM in *ORBIT* protected
against UVB but *NOT* UVC would be totally erased in 600 hours of
sunlight. Add in the variable effects of cloud cover, strength of the
ozone layer, possible inadequate programming of the EPROM in the first
place, and reduced exposure to flip the first bit rather than wipe ther
whole array etc. I see no reason to doubt that the effective life of the
data in an unprotected EPROM exposed to direct sunlight is of the order
of weeks, not years. One thing is for sure, I am not digging out one of
my remaining few 1702s and breadboarding a programmer to do any tests :)

I do know that there are confirmed reports of ordinary bench or room
lighting upsetting the operation of windowed EEPROMS and for the price
of a roll of foil tape, one has guaranteed 100% effective light barrier.
I've never experimented with the effect, decapped DRAM with a suitable
lens over it was *much* more interesting!

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
 
larwe wrote:
That comment should be taken with the appropriate sample of ionic
compound :)
15.432 grams, I presume.

--
One meter, to within 0.0125% accuracy (off by just under .005 inches):
Three feet
Three inches
Three eights of an inch
 
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"Joerg"

** I just gave you the one to look for - with full specs.

Around 2 nV /rt Hz at 20 Hz.


Yes, I meant most others. I'll ask the guys to buy some 2SK369 at Ampslab.
Toshiba also has a nice dual: 2SK3320. For some reason the main
distributors don't seem to carry Toshiba. Strange.

** This mob have the similar 2SK170 for 53 cents in 50 up.

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....... Phil
 
Dave Platt wrote:
In article <46fc71d2$0$24285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Green Xenon [Radium] <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

Would 300:1 work?

Not for video, no.

The ULF is even lower-frequency than MW. If a baud of
20-symbols-per-second but 300 bits-per-symbol is used, can the luminance
signal have its temporal and spatial frequencies downshifted
sufficiently so that it can be on a ULF-frequency FM carrier? Will this
work even if the FM carrier’s center-frequency is 300 Hz?

No. No. And, no. You cannot possibly do this... for several reasons.

Yes he can.
As a known troll on many newsgroup he can do anything.
Eve hide under a bridge.
 
Hello All,

After some problems a client saw I was treated to my own dose of what is
likely flash loss: The uC in our mailbox door has become erratic. I
installed it about three months ago and half of the day it receives a
good pelting from the sun. First it began not recognizing some keys,
then it started doing weird stuff like lock cycling. Things it wasn't
meant to ever do. Batteries, contacts and such look ok, reset didn't
help, so that's not it.

TI has an app note about the topic:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slaa392/slaa392.pdf

Figure 1 looks scary above the 80C range. Later they presented another
test with a different bake cycle which makes things look better but who
knows.

What is you experience with respect to flash errors on uC that are
exposed to elevated temperatures as most outdoors applications are?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
 
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1032-60LTI description

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"Ian Malcolm" <valid.address.in.signature@invalid.invalid> wrote
in message news:fm6ba4$bu9$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
robb wrote:
woot and and hardy THANKS ! to all the help,
i guess no one cared much for my h'omage (woot) to the era this
board derived
[ trim story ....]

thanks again for any helpful advice,
robb

Always consider the possible need for youself or another to be
able to
read the new rom in a programmer in several years time.
Therefore do
*NOT* butcher the pins more than you have to. Clipping the pin
will
make it more difficult to read in the future, so dont if you
can get
enough clearance for safety by bending it out a bit (not dead
flat, it
might break off). IIRC your board had /ALE going to pin 20
(/CS or chip
select) of the socket and PSEN to pin 22 (/OE, outpout enable).
A
carefull inspection of the SGS Thomson M87C257 data sheet
indicates that
it should be acceptable to tie pin 1 (bent out) to pin 20
driving both
the chip enabe and the address latch from the same /ALE signal.
Thats
*ONE* wire soldered diagonally accross the top of the ROM.
I've seen
worse in production equipment!
great, easy enough

No resistors diodes etc. required. The *ONLY* time you should
use a
resistor for a mod like this is if you need to tie an input to
+5V
supply, then you should use a series resistor typically 1K to
prevent
any risk of latchup on a supply spike.

Dont forget a bit of aluminium foil tape over the window in the
EPROM.
It on1y takes a few weeks of direct sunlight to wipe an EPROM
and
ambient liting can cause the EPROM to malfunction (But not
actually
erase it). Some people would prefer a black paper label. Pale
colours
and PVC tape can let too much light through for *long* term
reliability

At this point, with pin 1 tied to pin 20, assuming it works OK,
leave a
note in an envelope taped inside the cabinet for any future
repair
describing the modification and for ****s sake put it back
together
before the cat knocks it off the bench or anything else goes
wrong :)
well the project was supposed to be a learning exercise... as
well as repair

so put it back together ? and I was just about to re-kindle the
"ringing issue" on the clock signal going to the display board
:D the one that started this mess

As to making the ordinary 27Cxx series roms work with an 8051
equivalent, You would need that address latch, all the circuits
I have
seen use an external TTL octal latch to demultiplex the
Adrdress bus.
I'm not saying it could *NEVER* work without a latch as an old
enough
slow enough EPROM *might* have the data valid long enough from
a
transition on the address bus, but if you replaced with a
different
brand of 8051 or EPROM or even changed the temperature or
supply voltage
10%, I would expect it to stop working! *NOT* exactly a sane
and
reliable design :)

ok, that was my concern. i did not know if the purely timing
dependency was a hardware design issue, since the datasheets
always seem to show a very detailed timing diagram for
data/address/signals

reliability is certainly at the top of my requirements

If the original manufacturer is no more, please consider
putting the Hex
file for the ROM, with full make model and description to
accompany it
on the net somewhere suitable, *somebody* may need it sometime
in the
future.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --
NUL:
lots of great advice.
Again thanks for all the help Ian ,
since you were the one to suggest the latching ROM and 87c257
trek then i guess i owe you a pint or three :)

thanks again,
robb
 
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Balham - LT bus (8/July/1999)

Certainty level: 90%

I am very sure about this one. I got back from holidays on Wednesday.
There were two incidents, both on the tube, on the way back from the
airport. There was a further incident the following day, Thursday, on
the bus (the 155 I think) in Balham, where two girls started spouting
abuse about "crazy", etc. Naturally I had my minidisc with me and was
able to record their words.

The cynical reader might think my demeanour or behaviour had given rise
to the taunts of "crazy" recorded above. But I assure you my behaviour
on the bus would not have made anyone think I was ill; and the taunts
the previous day were the same sexual words as previously; so I'm quite
sure that these incidents are either deliberately staged, or indicative
of an overall high level of awareness among the London public,
particularly in the part of London where I live.

11559


--
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From: Mike_Corley_Fan_Club@Nut_house.org (Old_500)
Newsgroups: uk.misc,uk.legal,uk.media,alt.radio.uk,rec.arts.tv.uk.misc
Subject: MC Exposed as a Fraud
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 17:01:05 GMT
Organization: Anti-Nuts Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <31de9b91.11926469@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <Du4LqI.32o.0.bloor@torfree.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gw5-055.pool.dircon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227


Sad, confused and emotional disturbed Mike Corley wrote:

{ snip }

Because he has made himself into a martyr and now he finds it impossible to
back down. Mike's big secret has now been exposed. He made everything up.

Every time Mike makes allegations against the police, MI5,
Tom-Dick-and-Harry etc. those organisations have taken people off vitally
important work to ascertain whether or not there was any substance in Mike's
ranting allegations.

When I'm told by someone who really does know such things that there was
never any plot to get Mike then I trust that person sufficiently enough to
accept his word.

The problem is Mike has escalated matters to an extreme level and like many
silly billys he will find it impossible to give up all his self created crap
and to live a normal life. After all what can Mike do now this crap has
been exposed as untrue ? What new cause can Mike dedicate himself to ?
(Some might read that as: who else can Mike now start upsetting ?)

So Mike write to John Major, c/o the Private Secretary, 10 Downing Street,
London SW1A 2AA and ask the Prime Minister to help you. I'd normally
disclose his fax numbers but if I did that you might jam up the lines with
abusive postings just like you do here on Usenet.

Is anyone interested in joining with me to do a mass e-mailing of protests
to Anon Penet and to Toronto Free Net in an attempt to flood their computer
systems thus forcing them to seriously consider pulling the plug on Mike ?
I'm not sure but is my proposal called a "flame" ?

======================================================================

From: BigEars@technocom.com (Big Ears.)
Newsgroups: uk.misc,uk.legal,uk.media,alt.radio.uk,rec.arts.tv.uk.misc
Subject: Re: MC Exposed as a Fraud
Date: Sat Jul 6 17:34:46 1996

John Youles commented:

I've found that torfree.net don't respond, perhaps if they got a high
enough number of complaints they might take notice. See their web pages
for email addresses.
Perhaps we should give Mike 7 days from today (6 July 96) to come to his
senses and they start a massive multiple E-mailing campaign to Toronto Free
Net. If all us victims send multiple copies of E-mails to the right
addresses in Toronto then perhaps the Canadians will begin to get the
appropriate message.

Copy e-mailed to Mike, just so he knows what is coming if he persists.



Big Ears. Posted to uk.misc
==================================================================
Please think of the people sleeping in shop doorways every night
==================================================================

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: I'm wasting MI5's time! I should be arrested!
Newsgroups: uk.misc,uk.legal,rec.arts.tv.uk.misc,alt.journalism,alt.journalism.print,$
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Summary:
Keywords:


It's such a pity that the Security Service has no powers of arrest. How are
they supposed to implement a proper secret police state without the ability to
snatch Joe Citizen off the street whenever they feel like it?

"Old_500" aka "Big Ears" aka "PC Plod" wrote:
Every time Mike makes allegations against the police, MI5,
Tom-Dick-and-Harry etc. those organisations have taken people off vitally
important work to ascertain whether or not there was any substance in Mike's
ranting allegations.
I see. So they're not wasting six years of manpower to persecute you. They're
wasting six years of manpower to prove I'm _not_ being persecuted.

I wish I was clever enough to think of something like that. I really, really do.

When I'm told by someone who really does know such things that there was
never any plot to get Mike then I trust that person sufficiently enough to
accept his word.
Come on "Big Ears", why don't you admit that you made this posting? This is
exactly the same line you were feeding me a few months ago. The posts are from
the same news server, it's even the same newsreading software (Forte Agent
.99e/16.227).

I'm afraid that if you friend "in the know" denied the existence of a plot then
he was being, as they say, economical with the truth. Judging by the extreme
reaction in London in May, and the panic you're showing now, as well as the
replay post yesterday, I would say that things are hotting up again. But for
you this time, not for me. I am out of harm's way, and there is very little you
can do as long as I stay out of the UK.

352


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"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:46845636$0$25377$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4683ABBF.4C33C69E@hotmail.com...
You seem to have exceptionally bad luck.

Tell me about it!
But in fact since it happens with such regularity, claiming it is just bad
luck, is wishful thinking.

Are you even remotely aware how exceptionally strange that is ?

No, since many others claim the same experience.

A few years back
some brands were affected by the 'bad caps' issue. Maybe that affected
your
judgement of them ?

Nope, has been happening for over ten years. The last CFL in my house died
last week in fact, it too was an "infant" according to manufacturers
claims.
Replaced it with an incandescent, so now I have no CFL's.

I for one, have never had a CFL fail to last at least years in practical
use.

Are you even remotely aware how exceptionally unusual that is? :)
Doesn't seem unusual to me (or any of my acquaintances).
Have you ever measured your mains voltage? Is it within
"normal" specifications?
 

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