audio recording on IC -help wanted

[Peter A Forbes]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:50:14 GMT, Lostgallifreyan <no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:

Makes sense, but I have a totally different take on it.
Why not settle for some kind of common standard that means manufactures
can't exploit the public with high-cost warts of unusual voltage, polarity,
whatever they can do to make their wart vital and another wart useless?

Looking under my desk, I see that we have a total of 12 X 240V 13A sockets, all
occupied with various PC-related devices, plug-top PSU's taking half that number
for the network router, modem, network switch, scanner and so on.

Given that we have a decent sized PSU in the PC itself, why not have an
auxiliary output from there to power all these PC-related items?

A daisy-chained PSU lead could then run to all external devices.

It'll never happen, but it would save a lot of floor space.

Then there's the KVM leads.....

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
Web: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

Peter A Forbes <diesel@easynet.co.uk> wrote in
news:8gsnt21lsf8e6mf3ucpgbs0vii98fnu1b0@4ax.com:

Looking under my desk, I see that we have a total of 12 X 240V 13A
sockets, all occupied with various PC-related devices, plug-top PSU's
taking half that number for the network router, modem, network switch,
scanner and so on.

Given that we have a decent sized PSU in the PC itself, why not have
an auxiliary output from there to power all these PC-related items?

A daisy-chained PSU lead could then run to all external devices.

It'll never happen, but it would save a lot of floor space.

Then there's the KVM leads.....

Given tht most of the computer stuff might be same voltage, same polarity,
why not? An hour with a soldering iron and a stanley knife might be
enough to help that lot. I think I'd do it if it were tangling round my
feet.

Fitting a small row of DC jacks in a slot cover might be a great widget for
some firm to sell to computer users. I think they'd get sales, so long as
people can also buy ready made connecting lines. I wish the 2.1 and 2.5 mm
DC plugs were better designed; and the plug end is a very poor design for
making a chassis mounted part. I suppose there's no problem with having
sockets for inlets AND outlets though, same as with audio jacks.

Re KVM, good point, I've been contemplating replacing a KVM with a network
software based control system, like VNC, PC Anywhere or Kaseya. Not exactly
'thought' as looked wishfully in their general direction. KVM allows real
mode DOS without complications, so I'm not likely to replace it.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

Peter A Forbes <diesel@easynet.co.uk> wrote in
news:v4snt2dniv0h0tett1q96okmk6tvqmtspr@4ax.com:

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:05:56 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:


"Bud--" <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote in message
news:da2ea$45db3feb$4213eb86$2385@DIALUPUSA.NET...

When MOVs fail they can overheat.

Or shoot flames out of the top!

Or explode. We had some large block MOV's across some electrolytics in
a big 620V 150A power supply/charger. Occasionally we would get a
start-up spike from the thyristor bridge that popped one, huge flash
and bang and lots of smoke.

MOV = Metal Oxide Varistor?
I thought those were supposed to be a really neat idea... Can they be
redeemed by adding a series resistance designed to take the full current if
the MOV goes shorted, or would that just allow what they're meant to
prevent?
Right now they seem to look more like a detonator than a part with any real
usefulness.

 

[Peter A Forbes]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:26:50 GMT, Lostgallifreyan <no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:

Re KVM, good point, I've been contemplating replacing a KVM with a network
software based control system, like VNC, PC Anywhere or Kaseya. Not exactly
'thought' as looked wishfully in their general direction. KVM allows real
mode DOS without complications, so I'm not likely to replace it.

Similarly we are still using DOS, mainly for CAD but still find it useful for
the occasional bit of buchery )

We bought a load of new DOS 6.22 a few years ago, gradually using them up as the
floppies fail....

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
Web: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel

 

[Peter A Forbes]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:34:37 GMT, Lostgallifreyan <no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:

Peter A Forbes <diesel@easynet.co.uk> wrote in
news:v4snt2dniv0h0tett1q96okmk6tvqmtspr@4ax.com:

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:05:56 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:


"Bud--" <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote in message
news:da2ea$45db3feb$4213eb86$2385@DIALUPUSA.NET...

When MOVs fail they can overheat.

Or shoot flames out of the top!

Or explode. We had some large block MOV's across some electrolytics in
a big 620V 150A power supply/charger. Occasionally we would get a
start-up spike from the thyristor bridge that popped one, huge flash
and bang and lots of smoke.


MOV = Metal Oxide Varistor?
I thought those were supposed to be a really neat idea... Can they be
redeemed by adding a series resistance designed to take the full current if
the MOV goes shorted, or would that just allow what they're meant to
prevent?
Right now they seem to look more like a detonator than a part with any real
usefulness.

They are useful, up to a point. They don't exhibit a great tolerance to spikes
as we found out, and it is difficult to assess their performance in-circuit.

If the source impedance is very low then they are definitely the weakest part of
the protection chain.

Interesting that in each case (3 separate failures) the actual failure mode was
identical, the body blew open and red-hot parts went like shrapnel through the
equipment cabinet, that was the most worrying part.

The 620V charger is at: http://www.prepair.co.uk/100kWChgr.htm

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
Web: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel

 

[w_tom]

On Feb 22, 3:09 am, Peter A Forbes <die...@easynet.co.uk> wrote:

They are useful, up to a point. They don't exhibit a great tolerance to spikes
as we found out, and it is difficult to assess their performance in-circuit.

If the source impedance is very low then they are definitely the weakest part of
the protection chain.

Interesting that in each case (3 separate failures) the actual failure mode was
identical, the body blew open and red-hot parts went like shrapnel through the
equipment cabinet, that was the most worrying part.

MOVs that vaporize or explode are grossly undersized for the task.
MOVs must become conductive (shunt) and remain functional. MOVs have
tremendous tolerance for transients. But MOV manufacturers also
provide charts that relate current, length of transient, and number of
transient to life expectancy.

How does an MOV fail? Its threshold voltage degrades by 10%.
Vaporization occurs when the MOV operates on curves that are far off
the chart - well beyond what the manufacturer intended. Vaporization
(one shot usage) occurs where MOVs are grossly undersized such as in
many power strip protectors. Vaporization promotes sales among the
naive.

VI curves for MOVs obviously make them poor for transient protection
across an electrolytic. Again, look at how they work. Voltage
increases significantly as the current increases. But electrolytic
capacitors have a narrow region between operational voltage and
destructive voltage.

Protection for the electrolytic is part of an integrated system that
includes series mode protection such as EMI/RFI filters and other
parts. This integrated protection makes appliances so resilient that
a 120 volt appliance will even withstand a short 600 volt spike
without damage. Are larger spikes occurring? Then those much be
earthed back at the building entrance so that the transient does not
overwhelm protection inside all electronics.

Can we put additional shunt mode protection across electrolytics?
Well, first the current size (not voltage) and time of that transient
must be determined. Again, functions defined by the series mode
filters, et al currently installed. To obtain effective protection
in the narrow range between operational voltage and destructive
voltage, components such as Transzorbs or overvoltage crowbars should
be considered.

Meanwhile, learn the VI curves and life expectancy curves for MOVs.
And notice the absolute maximum ratings. The exploding MOV must be
well outside those maximum rating - a violation of manufacturer's
specs.

 

[Al]

In article <12u42m1jsi72b43@corp.supernews.com>,
Chris Jones <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:

PeterD wrote:

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:55:11 GMT, Al <no.spam@wanted.com> wrote:

In article <45E1C67B.7F3034C7@worldnet.att.net>,
Michael <nospam@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Al wrote:
(snip)
The problem is with temperature cycling. The solder joints eventually
fracture and lead to either intermittents or opens. You can really
stress you electronics by letting it cold soak and then turning it on.
It may not fail immediately, but you have shortened its life.

Al


You make an excellent point, Al, that nobody else here brought up (as
far as
I've read). Thermal cycling stresses solder joints. Period. Repeated
stress
eventually causes strain (damage). Period.

In a former life I was an engineer in Packaging Assurance at a major
U.S.
business machine company. Our life projection testing included thermal
cycling
in the range 0C-100C specifically because thermal cycling produces
stress and stress precipitates strain ... i.e. component failure.

So exposing e.g. your laptop to thermal cycling - be that room temp. -
hot car
-> room temp. or room temp -> cold car -> room temp - is decidedly a
Bad
Thing. Maintaining your electronics at a *constant* temperature during
its entire life is impractical but would go a long way toward extending
its life.

Then again, who really cares if a laptop dies after only a couple years?
Within
that relatively short period of time it is superceeded, at least twice,
by newer-faster-better.

So says this guy, who still uses a PC-AT, a vintage 1993 80486-20
laptop, and a
vintage 1998 Pentium II-350 desktop PC.

And I did component failure analysis at a major defense contractor. I've
seen it too many times. And another one was tin whiskers between solder
joints. ;-) Can't wait to see what happens with the new lead free
solders. It'll be a bonanza for us failure analysts.

Al

RoHS solder has already shown itself to be substandard in this
respect, and we'll be seeing lots of these failures as the standard
becomes the rule in the rest of the world. Course, Europe will lead
the way in broken electronics gear!

Now that was done to reduce 'hazardous' materials in the disposal
chain. Wait... So now they throw away *more* stuff because it breaks
more quickly? That's efficiency?

I'd also like to know if "tin pest" has started happening. I guess the
first place to check would be some cold country because it's supposed to
happen below 13 degrees C.

Chris

I'm not cognizant of that. What I have seen is when a cold PCB, say if
the equipment was outside in cold weather and is brought into a warm,
more humid atmosphere, moisture condenses on the PCB and the contacts.
Conformal coat covers most of the PCB, but not necessarily at the
contacts. If, due to poor layout, a +5VDC contact is next to a ground
contact, the moisture will bridge the gap and the tin whisker will form
between the two. Now at the power points the problems is self correcting
as that as soon as the whisker bridges the gap between power and ground,
it vaporizes. You can imagine that if this occurs at a rapid rate, you
get spikes on your power plane. Hopefully your power filter caps will
take care of this.

But.....if this happens on high impedance paths, like between a HIGH
output from a gate and ground, there may not be enough energy to
vaporize the short. So, you can guess the consequences. Sometimes, the
short happens and then blows open. It depends on the current carrying
capicity of the whisker. Then you get logic errors. Ah, and they are so
intermittent.

BTW, at a recent IEEE Reliability Group meeting, I listened to a lecture
which revealed that consumer electronics are now being designed for a
3yr lifetime. So perhaps you will "upgrade" before your equipment dies
due to tin whisker growth.

Al

 

[Impmon]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:17:14 +0000, Chris Jones
<lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:

I'd also like to know if "tin pest" has started happening. I guess the
first place to check would be some cold country because it's supposed to
happen below 13 degrees C.

13C... that's about 55.4F for us Americans. Yeah I could see that
being a problem as seeing I usually spend only about 2 or 3 months a
year at or warmer than 60F in where I live.

I wonder if the mfgs would sell the electronics with really short
warranty or none at all, especially for those of us in colder
climates.

Looks like I may consider the store's extended warranty no-question
asked package as I'd probably end up having to return electronics
every so often due to failed solder joints.

 

[Mark Aitchison]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

... a 12 mile round trip to get rid of my trash.

as the person who started the "history of bulk electronic component
suppliers" thread I have to say the way this one changed topic again and
again was pretty amazing, even by the standards of some the the alt.
newsgroups!

But full circle, and talking rubbish... if there is little demand for
bulk out-of-spec or whatever components those old dinosaur companies
like Poly Paks and BiPak supplied, what happens to them now? I presume
there is still a lot coming off production lines that are not quite 100%
within spec... are they simply trashed?? And what about those zillions
of old transistors and ICs for sale on the internet that nobody will
ever need but nobody wants to toss out? I mean - there are really old
obscure transistors out there by the cartload that probably only 3
people in the world will ever consider using to fix up some old
equipment, and even then they'll use some modern equivalent if they can.

Do these guys actually sell enough of these things (that nobody would
dream of using of using in new designs) when the outlets that used to
sell a bag of 'em for a few bucks are all gone?

Mark A

 

[Prepair Ltd]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2007 23:17:16 +1300, Mark Aitchison <MarkA@protov.plain.co.nz>
wrote:

Do these guys actually sell enough of these things (that nobody would
dream of using of using in new designs) when the outlets that used to
sell a bag of 'em for a few bucks are all gone?

Mark A

Surprisingly, I have some good results with new old stock film capacitors on
ebay as a lot of the makers have stopped production of many of them and they are
unobtanium now.

Semiconductors are still in demand, carbon film resistors you can't give away
but occasionally a deal can be done, things like mains adjusters are obsolete
with universal input switch mode equipment coming along, so they are not easy to
sell, panel fuseholders don't seem to have a big market either, toroidal
trannies move very well if they fit what homebrew guys want, even some of the
most unusual things will sell if someone wants it!

It is all a case of having something available when someone wants it. I found it
easier to start an ebay shop where I have sold more obsolete stuff this past few
months than ever I did in the few years previously.

(This is separate from our company transactions)

Peter
--
Peter A Forbes
Prepair Ltd, Luton, UK
prepair@easynet.co.uk
http://www.prepair.co.uk

 

[Terry Given]

Palindrome wrote:

John E. wrote:

Terry Given sez:

BTW in that position its probably a 47V zener, clamping the peak
drain voltage.



I'd been turning over in my mind that this is indeed a zener, not
simply a "plain" rectifier. It is indeed a 47 volt zener.
Why was this diode chosen in the design? I'm familiar with the
standard diode being used to short-circuit the back-EMF from the
solenoid, but I can't figure out the purpose of a zener used in this
location.


The zener does a better, but more expensive, job of protecting the
series switching element. It limits both positive and negative
transients.

its pretty hard finding a FET without a body diode, so negative
transients are invariably taken care of regardless of the type of clamp
circuit.

A diode across the switched inductor does stop most (but not

all) of the switching transient - but doesn't protect the series element
from transients on the supply rails,

by "series element" you must be referring to the FET. Yep, the zener
will protect the FET against voltage spikes on the 42V bus. Of course
FETs nowadays are rated for avalanche energy.....


caused by other inductances

elsewhere reacting to the sudden change in current.

Que?

It is usual to

combine these sorts of design with reasonably fast (eg
tantalum)electrolytics placed locally - to act as energy "tanks" to
supply and sink transient power.

seeing as Im being a pedantic sod, I'll point out that tantalums are not
electrolytics (and vice versa).

I once had a serious brain fart in this regard, making a small motor
controller at Uni. It ran from a 3-phase supply, and seeing as
full-wave-rectified 3-phase AC has ~15% ripple, I figured I didnt need a
DC bus cap.

Which worked fine, until the first time I turned the H-bridge off with
current flowing in the motor 30 minutes, 4 FETs and a complete set of
gate drive circuits later, I added a large cap. oops.

Vdd
/\
|
|
SS
SS Solenoid
SS
|
+-----+
| |
| |
BUZ72 | /---/ ZY47
FET |--+ /\ Diode
-------| | |--+ |
| |
\ |
0.27R / |
\ |
| |
| |
/// ///

I think that should show proper in Courier or Monaco... or Paris (c:
I must add that Vdd is *reported* to be 42vdc. I was handed this board
with scribbled specs. May be higher or lower or in a parallel universe.

As I and others have written - the diode didn't burn up because of
transient energy. There is a supply problem, somewhere.

assuming the thing ever worked properly, which it sounds like it did.

conceivably a shorted solenoid could have stored enough energy to end up
snotting the zener, but as you say, a supply overvoltage would
definitely kill it. And it doesnt even have to be that much, just
continuous.

Cheers
Terry

 

[JW]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:49:12 +0900 "lee jae kyung" <leelk3@kornet.net>
wrote in Message id: <esm56k$3p0$1@news2.kornet.net>:

We are sell device

We are buy not from spammers.

 

[Eeyore]

DaveC wrote:

Newark normally has them but is out of stock. I would call Bourns.

Will Bourn sell single units?

Their distributors might.

It's a shame you can't AIUI still get the Allen Bradley mod-pots.

Graham

 

[krw]

In article <ethcqb$ch1$1@aioe.org>, nixnam@noname.net says...

Lionel wrote:

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:15:35 -0700, SparkyGuy <SparkyGuy@mumcrank.ck
wrote:

Haven't been able to identify this controller. Don't need
replacement; it's got custom code, I'm sure. Would be nice to have
pin IDs.

http://img6.picsplace.to/img.php?file=img6/27/CliffordPCB.jpg

Looks like a custom mask-programmed micro. It's a Nat-Semi of some
variety, but I'm not familiar enough with their range of
microcontrollers to make an intelligent suggestion as to which one. If
you can find the right 'family' on their website, you should at least
then be able to identify clocks, power & I/O pins, if that's any help
to you. You might also try contacting a support person there & see if
they have any ideas:
http://www.national.com/

or could this be a SC\MP version of NatSemi. discontinued
see heavier traces on 20 and 40

I thought about SC/MP, but '92 sounded a bit late. The SC/MP was out
in the late '70s. I wouldn't have thought it survived that long.

--
Keith

 

[mark krawczuk]

"Jonno" <somewhere@inthecloud.com> wrote in message
news:45f62026$0$9773$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:
I agree!

Frank wrote:

I have to ask you "were have you started to read this message"
AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE

So why the fuck do bottom posting wankers want you to spend time
scrolling
down a page of crap looking for were the new message starts ? because
they
are thick, OK you might ask, why not remove the old message so the new
message appears at the top of the page, well that is one option, I only
include it so anyone who comes in half way down the thread can work out
what
is go on, how often does that happen, Not very often.

Get a life, stop wanking, stop bottom posting. Top posting saves time,
as us
more intelligent people seem to understand.




So do I.

what was that , i had to start reading from the top.

 

[Lionel]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:42:19 +0100 (CET), "Ryan Weihl"
<nixnam@noname.net> wrote:

Lionel wrote:

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:15:35 -0700, SparkyGuy <SparkyGuy@mumcrank.ck
wrote:

Haven't been able to identify this controller. Don't need
replacement; it's got custom code, I'm sure. Would be nice to have
pin IDs.

http://img6.picsplace.to/img.php?file=img6/27/CliffordPCB.jpg

Looks like a custom mask-programmed micro. It's a Nat-Semi of some
variety, but I'm not familiar enough with their range of
microcontrollers to make an intelligent suggestion as to which one. If
you can find the right 'family' on their website, you should at least
then be able to identify clocks, power & I/O pins, if that's any help
to you. You might also try contacting a support person there & see if
they have any ideas:
http://www.national.com/

or could this be a SC\MP version of NatSemi. discontinued
see heavier traces on 20 and 40

Were they still making the SC/MP in '92? The last time I saw an SC/MP
was in 1980!

--
W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them."
. | ,. w ,
\|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

Lostgallifreyan <no-one@nowhere.net> wrote in
news:Xns98F84BEDD36A4zoodlewurdle@140.99.99.130:

if resources become low
enough to make a majority of people start to begrudge this and DO
something about the way they choose to spend their money, it will
carry on.

Correction, "...it will stop."

 

am slowly weaning from this techno madness, it is like a creeping crud,
society gets crazed and beleives the earth will be saved by using this
technostuf. pity them

some actually think we will emigrate to another flying rock in the universe.
pity them too.

b gates, now the best artist at this pogrom on human decency, has attempted
to ally his obligation by 'giving' that which he never earned back to some
of less fortunate of situations. hes gonna die just like everyone else, it
wont matter and no one cares.

big companies/small individuals practice the same ignorance toward life,
short term perspective long term dreams.

future/past, we all gonna die anyway, so grab while u can??

solidified security, whatta hooey that is. only means you have a grabbed
too much already.

the kings exist still, under assumed identities and perform the same
crueltys as ever they have.


"Lostgallifreyan" <no-one@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:Xns98F84BEDD36A4zoodlewurdle@140.99.99.130...

hapticz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:8NpLh.1277$rj1.718@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net:

no one in business for profit ever cares about resource depletion
until their own kids die from it.. & even then, they figure they will
leave THAT problem for their kids to solve. "if it aint broke,doan
figz it"


Don't kid yourself. They don't think of it AT ALL. Period. There are two
ways to think things like this, unless you're no longer sane, in which
case
all bets are off:
1. You assume it IS relevent to you, and all that you care about, in which
case it nags at you till you eventually do something, ANYTHING, to appease
the nagging sense of doubt, in order to make yourself feel more secure. OR
2. You assume your security is ALREADY assured, thus you don't think of
doing anything to change what others appear to be whinging about as a
perceived threat.

Given that the firms doing this ARE amongst the most secure, financially,
politically, and socially, their arrogance is the cause. This is not mere
ignorance, it is WILLFUL ignorance, the worst and most dangerous kind. It
also the kind that is hardest to forgive, and if resources become low
enough to make a majority of people start to begrudge this and DO
something
about the way they choose to spend their money, it will carry on. There
are
firms that will sell cheap refills, but these aren't the cure, they DEPEND
on the problem to exist.

Now, as I'm saying my small rant in the presence of electronics engineers,
some of which are considering their own business management as well as
electronics details, I won't try to tell them solutions they probably know
more about themselves, it's enough to point out tht there will be a market
for products that don't fleece the buying public at unacceptable expense.

I do have one small suggestion, I guess. Innovation is the ONLY way a
small
firm can get ahead. After all, it;s buying up innovators that makes the
big
firms get ahead, right? So, if small firms patent their stuff precisely
instead of in the aggressive way large firms do to try to stop others,
instead of just protecting themselves, this can help, it can prevent a
large firm from muying and burying innovation that threatens their own
wasteful empires, and it can also prevent them from revising history to
try
to force their exploitation of your ideas. Patent it under your own name
if
you invent it. A firm can't claim your idea even if you thought it up on
their time! Do they OWN your mind? I think not. At least copyright it by
sending yourself signed sealed copies. Do this before it becomes valuable
to someone else.

There may be all kinds of better ideas to erode the tech society that
wastes so heavily, but I'm not inside it enough to think of much more than
I have said here.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

<hapticz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:8OrLh.8425$yW.5521@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net:

big companies/small individuals practice the same ignorance toward life,
short term perspective long term dreams.

future/past, we all gonna die anyway, so grab while u can??

It can work out, and we don't need to wear hair shirts and wring our hands
either.. (old cliche, but still indicative).

Most of earth's history seems to show that while adaptation and new
lifeforms can develop explosively, any security is built on diversity, not
monoculture. This doesn't mean that small firms can't be allowed to want to
earn and keep what they earn. It actually means they do more to help us all
if they DO do these things, making it harder to be bought out oy the large
monocultures.

Whether I think we're all going to hell or not depends on my mood as much
as anything, but the best way out of this mess is the same thing nature
does when threatened, Dig your heels in, buy yourself some time, protect
your reserves. Anyone can do this if they don't try to take on too much.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

Small addition: Co-operation. That can help too. It doesn't need to be some
kind of communism either, we have the internet. Just being able to be aware
of each other's efforts helps. So long as the internet isn't made private
and secret, it will help. That's new, no-one ever had this before, it's
like the revolution of cheap printing. It's no accident that this
discussion springs from that exact issue, the control of cheap printing.
That's what the big monoculture industries are cashing in on. That's where
they get their power.

There are drives to make the internet private, but it will be harder to
control. it has to be made efficient to even work right. Some of the bigger
industries online, like Usenet providers, are aware that they make more
money by letting people get at more data, instead of restricting it. That
will make it better to try to profit from that to recover losses than to
try to resist that reality with old methods.

I won;t try to be a seer and predict where all this will go, but for now,
it's as free a means of sharing information as we've ever had. Use it. Try
to keep it free. Make it hard for the big monocultures to take it away or
revise on their terms.

Entirely too much ranting, I'm done, I hope. >