audio recording on IC -help wanted

Rich Grise wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:48:05 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark
"Henry Kolesnik" <kolesnik@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
...
"Man with one watch knows exact time, man with two, not sure."
Confucius

Well, if what Confucius said is true, then NIST must not be certain of
the exact time. But NIST claims accuracy of something like 10^14 or so
over their numerous standards..

Perhaps it should be "Man with one watch is deceived into thinking he
knows the exact time.."

Ironically, a watch that's not even running shows the exact time twice
a day!

Cheers!
Rich
Not digital watches. They just lay there and do nothing.
--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
From: "mike742" on Sun,Apr 17 2005 11:09 pm

I've always noted with some curiosity that 77.503kHz,
60.002kHz, and 60.005kHz are off-the-shelf crystals too...
used in a direct conversion receiver for DCF/WWV to 3Hz, 2Hz,
and 5Hz carrier-detect frequencies maybe?

Strange. Maybe another resonance mode?

I'd guess the specified frequency is parallel resonance with
the specified load capacitance.

I have some Digi-Key SE3320-ND 60 Khz xctls (C-2 60.000KC-P).

My best try at measuring the series resonant frequency shows
59998 Hz. Perhaps the 60.002 Khz ones are series resonant at
60000 Hz. I don't have any of those to measure.
To help us out, it would be best if you describe your
method of testing the resonance frequencies and the
accuracy of your frequency meter/counter.

A -2 Hz "error" in frequency is about 33 PPM (Parts
Per Million) or 0.0033 %. That seems to be within
manufacturer's stated tolerance.

For what it's worth, the spectral occupancy needed
by the WWVB signal is roughly 5 Hz. That is good
enough to demodulate the AM of WWVB and still
preserve the (relative) sharpness of the digital
amplitude transitions for purposes of obtaining the
correct time of day. Modulation on WWVB is roughly
30% AM at 1 second periodicity.

In my TRF receiver for 60 KHz, the carrier is
extracted by amplifying the filtered signal and
applying it to an over-driven MC1350P which acts
as a limiter. Outside of the (relatively) broad
selectivity of the tuned loop (Q roughly 45) and
an interstage L-C tuned coupling, the final filter
is simply two ECS crystals in series with a small
capacitor to ground at the series connection point.
The capacitor value was arrived at by "cut and
try" substitution, much quicker than trying to
calculate everything after an elaborate crystal
measurement exercise. :)

The final selectivity is narrow enough to eliminate
most of the LF hash around the spectrum, especially
the 4th harmonics of the TV set horizontal sweep
frequency. That should work equally well on non-
limiting demodulation to get the time-of-day data.
[without the DSP supplied by the microcontrollers
in the radio clocks...we have two commercial units
in the house for that]

Measuring the exact crystal resonance frequency is
NOT a simple exercise at 60 KHz. I would suggest
looking closer at the Digi-Key links for technical
data direct from the manufacturer. Those are found
on the Digi-Key final part-number page just below
the electronic catalog page PDF link. Manufacturer's
data yields the parallel capacitance, maximum series
resonance crystal equivalent resistance, and either
the equivalent series inductance or the equivalent
series capacitance. Digi-Key is excellent in their
links to manufacturer's data in my estimation.

LenAnderson@ieee.org
 
I have some Digi-Key SE3320-ND 60 Khz xctls (C-2 60.000KC-P).

My best try at measuring the series resonant frequency shows
59998 Hz. Perhaps the 60.002 Khz ones are series resonant at
60000 Hz. I don't have any of those to measure.

To help us out, it would be best if you describe your
method of testing the resonance frequencies and the
accuracy of your frequency meter/counter.
....

Measuring the exact crystal resonance frequency is
NOT a simple exercise at 60 KHz. I would suggest
looking closer at the Digi-Key links for technical
data direct from the manufacturer. Those are found
on the Digi-Key final part-number page just below
the electronic catalog page PDF link. Manufacturer's
data yields the parallel capacitance, maximum series
resonance crystal equivalent resistance, and either
the equivalent series inductance or the equivalent
series capacitance. Digi-Key is excellent in their
links to manufacturer's data in my estimation.

A -2 Hz "error" in frequency is about 33 PPM (Parts
Per Million) or 0.0033 %. That seems to be within
manufacturer's stated tolerance.
I see what you're asking.

The Digi-Key pages says 100 ppm (+/- 6 Hz @ 60 Khz). The Epson
web page says they are photolithography-finished and at least
one Epson data sheet says the standard frequency tolerance is
20 ppm. Possibly they have no problem hitting 20 ppm and the
actual tolerance is much better than that (but not over
temperature).

20 ppm is still 1.2 Hz wide and the resonance probably is
sharper than that (Q > 50K?).

This measuring project started when I tried to use the Epson
crystal data to calculate what the series resonant frequency
would be of the 60 Khz parallel specified crystals. After
much mucking around with various numbers I decided to measure
it.

And you're right, I've been ignoring calibration. Here's how
I'm measuring the resonance:

I have a homebrew LC VCO running at 6 Mhz. It's full frequency
range is about 5.99180 to 6.0053 Mhz. This is divided by 100
(two 74LS90's) and then low pass filtered resulting in a sine
wave around 60 Khz.

The signal level is attenuated via 10k/1k resistors and then fed
through the crystal with a 10k load on the other side. There's
some additional loading from the x100 gain amplifier and then
into a scope.

The circuit around the xctl looks like:
.1 10k
from-e-follower-lowpass--||----/\/\/\/\/----+---| xctl |----+---> to
x100 amp
< >
1k < 10k
gnd gnd

I can see a noise widened trace on the scope plus some
switching spikes/artifacts. As I tune the VCO, the noise
trace is flat except at one specific frequency, which is
about 1 Hz at most wide where the noise band becomes a sine
wave.

I'm measuring the frequency of the 6 Mhz VCO with a
Ramsey C-125 frequency counter. It's a standard ICM7216D
counter with a cheap 10 Mhz crystal as the time base. It's
uncalibrated (other than the factory, not sure of the date,
possibly in the 70s?).

Ok, how to calibrate the frequency counter?

And how stable is the frequency counter?

I'm living in a cloud of RF noise, plus computers. In addition
the frequency counter is a real RF noise generator too
(multiplexed LEDs in addition to the counting circuitry).

By moving the counter and short wave radio to a different room
I managed to hear the 2nd harmonic of a 5 Mhz crystal oscillator
on 10 Mhz with WWV. It sounded like the beat frequency was lower
in frequency than the 100 Hz WWV modulation pulses. So an upper
bound of +/- 100 Hz at 10 Mhz would put the upper bound on the
frequency counter of 10 ppm.

I'm not really happy with this calibration, I'll have to see what
I can do to improve it.
 
I'm not really happy with this calibration,
I'll have to see what I can do to improve it.
Zero-beat to WWV is hard to do better than 50Hz by ear. Mechanical
aids will get you a little better but then at the few Hz level you hit
variations in carrier due to ionospheric variation.

For a few hundred $, HP Z3801A's are available on the surplus market.
They're a 10MHz OCXO locked to GPS. Short term Allan variation is
10^-12 or better over 1-100 seconds. Many lab counters and a lot of
ham radio frequency counters will happily accept the 10MHz reference
that the Z3801A makes.

Other telecom-related GPS-locked OCXO's/rubidium oscillators are
available on the surplus market too, some make telco-related reference
frequencies like 1.544MHz or 19.6608MHz which can be used to calibrate
on.

Tim.
 
mike742 wrote:
I've always noted with some curiosity that 77.503kHz,
60.002kHz, and 60.005kHz are off-the-shelf crystals too...
used in a direct conversion receiver for DCF/WWV to 3Hz, 2Hz,
and 5Hz carrier-detect frequencies maybe?

Strange. Maybe another resonance mode?

I'd guess the specified frequency is parallel resonance with
the specified load capacitance.

I have some Digi-Key SE3320-ND 60 Khz xctls (C-2 60.000KC-P).

My best try at measuring the series resonant frequency shows
59998 Hz. Perhaps the 60.002 Khz ones are series resonant at
60000 Hz. I don't have any of those to measure.
Here are some measurement of a few Epson Type 2 60 kHz crystals I made
recently:

Fs BW Fp
60001.6 4.6 60009.9
60001.2 4.6 60009.7
60002.2 5.6 60010.6
60001.1 4.4 60009.5

The test setup is shown below. The input signal was produced
by my homebrew function generator implemented with an AD9833.
The clock for the 9833 is an 10 MHz SG-615B which
has a specified frequency stability of 100 PPM.


|Vcc
|
|
20.0k |
Vi 0.1++ |-+ 2N5457
-/\/\-+--||-||--+->|
| ++ | |-+-- Vo
\ \ |
/ 1M / \
1.0k \ \ /1k
| | \
| | |
+---------+----+
|
V
 
I have used (and still use) <2kV caps from Murata, Kemet and Panasonic
(although they can be difficult to get hold of).

I usually don't like anything smaller than 1206 for that voltage, as my
equipment can be in vehicles and is not conformally coated, so free air
dielectric breakdown can become a concern. Note I am using them simply
for ESD / power line spike suppression, not general signal usage.

Cheers

PeteS
 
"Fred Bloggs" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:428F611D.2080304@nospam.com...
If you think about it, the batteries do have an equivalent series
resistance and the LEDs are not perfect voltage clamps either.
There IS a
series resistance even though there is no discrete resistor in the
circuit.

Jim


Exactly. That's why they work. Maybe not as perfectly as some would
like, but good enough to sell.


There is much more to it than that- parallel LEDs are more reliable
than
any other configuration and putting the full battery voltage across
the
LEDs maximizes sensitivity of current to battery voltage so that when
the user notices less than satisfactory light output he/she still has
ample use remaining to change out the batteries- sort of like the low
gas level warning on the car dashboard.
You forgot to add: "that when the user notices less than satisfactory
light output he/she still has ample use remaining to change out the
LEDs"!!!

Running the LEDs at excessive current not only makes them a lot
brighter, it makes them last much shorter, and guarantees the flashlight
maker another sale in a few years, if that long!!! :p
 
"ehsjr" <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:KeVje.150$nb.145@trndny03...
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:
"ehsjr" <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:8CJje.5174$BF5.235@trndny06...

Henry Kolesnik wrote:

I just got a 4 white LED flashlight that uses 3 AA cells from
Harbor
freight. I measured the current at 127 ma and and that leads me to

beleive

they are direct wired. Looking inside as best I can it looks like

all 4 are

in parallel and connect directly to the 3 cells in series. I think

LEDs are

supposed draw a lot less current if they have a dropping resistor.

I'm

guessing that a dropping resistor would reduce current draw

substantially,

increase led life and not reduce light output significantly. But I

can see

were I could easliy install a resistor. I also know just about

zero on

leds.
tnx


The Electronic Goldmine sells a 4 white LED flashlight for
$1.99. Item # G15184 Watch for the line wrap:



http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G15184&variati
on=&aitem=15&mitem=24

You didn't specify the Item # for the Harbor Freight
flashlight - I assume it is ITEM 3653-0VGA

Based on the catalog pictures, it looks like the Harbor
Freight light has a metal body, while the Goldmine's is
plastic. But I'll bet they use the same LED's. I
have the Goldmine unit - there is a bluish tint to the
light it produces. Does yours produce a bluish tint?

As Watson mentioned, overdriving LEDs does reduce their
life and their light output, so your thinking seems right
on target. But for either a $7.00 or a $1.99 4 LED flashlight,
it's probably not worth the effort to incorporate a
dropping resistor - unless experimentation, rather than
function, is the goal.

Ed


Man, for those prices, you can throw them away every time you change
the
AA cells! But what I find problematic is that the length of that
three
cell monster is over 7".



And if you buy the Goldmine flashlight I think you'll be
dissapointed. Your Altoids creations out shine it, and
produce whiter light. I'll have to try it with real AA's -
I'm using NiMh. Dunno if the Harbor Freight lite would work
at ~3.6 using rechargeables.

Modifying the Goldmine for 1 AA cell might be a worthwhile
project. They'll also sell you a 4 white led cluster all
by itself, for $1.99. (Item G14877) It contains 5mm LEDs.
I don't have one so I don't know how it performs.

Ed
Richard Cappels had a project on his web page that replaced one cell
with a V boost circuit. It's in series, so there's nothing to do other
than remove one cell and put the dummy cell circuit in its place. That
might be the way to go with a three cell light if you're using
rechargables.

Here's the URL
http://mail4.cableaz.com/~cappels/dproj/vboostLED/vboostLED.html
 
Is it possible to create more
than 8 different colours on the screen?
There are only 8 colors. Anyone who tells you that there are more is
probably female.

Tim.
 
"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3F95f.2019$dO2.694@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Hello Bill,

...

Then again a SW engineer once told me that nothing is truly analog.
There is always that smallest digital step, the quantum.
Regards, Joerg

Poor fella's got it bass ackward.

73, Steve, K,9;D.C'I
 
"Keith Williams" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dc0285a10282227989c49@news.individual.net...
In article <Eti5f.8621$lN2.115@fe04.lga>, tmoranwms@charter.net
says...
"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3F95f.2019$dO2.694@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Then again a SW engineer once told me that nothing is truly analog.
There is always that smallest digital step, the quantum.

So, digital is base two, and analog is base 1.6 x 10^19? ;-)

Not really. Analog's bits are just smaller. ;-)
-- Keith
That's what he said... 10^18 smaller
73, Steve, K,9.D;C'I
 
"Keith Williams" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dc0529ba3517d20989c55@news.individual.net...
In article <43568483.CCBB8C37@hotmail.com>,
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com says...


Joerg wrote:

Still, the digital guys kept telling us "Some day we'll get there
........

How long have they been saying that ???? ;-)

We've been getting half the way there every two years or so. ;-)

--
Keith


Don-chya love it ? !

73, Steve, K9DCI
 
Hello Erik,

I think the BFS480 are "hotter" than the BFS17 - at least a factor
of two. The oscilloscope under investigation is a C1-122 and the
other componentes have -3dB at around 150MHz so a drop at 750MHz
(as I expect in using the BFS48x) might be OK. In my opinon the SOT363
package is the smallest I want to solder by hand ;-)
Just be careful with these. A GHz transistor can oscillate without you
even seeing it because none of the equipment is fast enough for that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
I am a high school student and need this for a science fair experiment.

I want to be able to record exactly how long it will take for the
person to wake up. As soon as the buzzer wakes them up, they will
press the button to stop the stopwatch.

So at a predetermined time at night (say, 5AM, or 2AM, or whatever),
the buzzer will go off and a stopwatch will start counting up. As soon
as the person wakes up, they will press a button to stop the
counting-up. They will record whatever the stopwatch says on a sheet
of paper. (Or, if possible, the time will be stored onto a memory
chip.)

I need to make this device as dummy-proof as possible, so many students
will participate in my experiment. It needs to be as cheap as possible
to build and it needs to be very easy to use (All they have to do is
press a button and the time shows up. They don't need to set anything,
or do anything whatsoever.)
 
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.basics.]


Mechanical car speedos are usually driven by a rotating cable from the
gearbox, and are all mechanical.

Probably the simplest way to convert to digital would be to glue a pot
track on the instrument face, with a pot wiper on the needle. Run it
off a regulated 10v or whatever, and feed to a multimeter or voltmeter.
Bit crude, but youre going to have fun trying to do it other ways.
If there's enough torque behind the needle to move the wiper that could work.
but, most mechanical speedos work bt a rotating magnet driving an aluminium
disc (or cup) by induction, opposed by the force of a very weak spring.

a carefully placed hall effect sensor could detect the passes of the magnet

the rate of these pulses would need to be translated into the speed...
the sort of thing a small microcontroller excells at.

Bye.
Jasen
 
"Usual Suspect" <reply@thegroup.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C5D153950174403BB01AD9AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
What are the options for accessing a half dozen signals on a 26x26 (1.0 mm
pitch) BGA? Some of these signals are not connected to he PCB (ie, some of
the IC's features not utilized) so tapping into traces is not an option.
JTAG is the usual method to see if the pins are at least toggling - great
for inputs, but outputs need to be probed elsewhere in the circuit to
confirm connection.

Also, it's common practice to fanout every pin (including the outer ones) to
full vias so that they can be probed from the bottom of the board. For
prototypes you can even leave off the solder mask on the bottom vias so you
get easy test points.
If it's a denser board with blind vias then you have to put test points
elsewhere.

Probing options exist but they must be soldered in place with the chip.

Dave.
 
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:03:49 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 4/3/2009 12:10 AM Archimedes' Lever spake thus:

On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 00:46:50 -0700 (PDT), proteusiiv@gmail.com wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:08 pm, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:20:39 +0000, Adrian C <em...@here.invalid> wrote:
If built properly to CE EMC guidelines (applicable in the UK), generally
your domestic PC and connected equipment should not be causing that type
of interference.

You must not have seen the 'window equiped' PC cases all over the place
now.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT

I AM PROTEUS

You obviously know nothing about shielding or emission standards.

You obviously replied to a troll. You lose.

Your capacity to make a valid assessment rests at nil. You're a
goddamned idiot.
 
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:32:03 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Lostgallifreyan wrote:
Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:7dbdd3F2b0r74U2@mid.individual.net:

Lostgallifreyan wrote:
If anyone is following this and wants to try modelling their own stuff,
I found what might be a way.
Intusoft make a tool called SpiceMod which is part of a package they
call ICAP4 though it seems the demo setup doesn't have that tool, just
some very good noted on it, and modelling in general:
The file WkwModels.pdf from the demo install answers a lot fo the
questions I had about modelling diodes, which parameters to tweak, and
extraction from data sheets.

I don't know if the lack of response to me is because of a thousand
experts silently screming RTFM at me, or because it's actually
asomething they DON'T KNOW. Given that Intusoft explain that this is a
serious challenge for experts too, I'm assuming maybe they really don't
know, so they might benefit from that file as much as I will.

Most of us just use a regular diode to simulate because all one
(usually) wants to know is that there definitely won't be any ever so
slight spike in diode current because LDs can go poof in microseconds.
Simulating the optics part would be a major challenge, I think.


Thought that might provoke an expert. :) I agree, same here, that's all I
usually need too, though like that EDN manual says, a more detailed model
that allows models to give warning of imminent demise is useful. Modelling
for ESD is likely daft, better that we just take care and put in TVS's and
such, but when it comes to fast modulation, a model definitely helps. Surely
you'd have a use for that, no?


I have designed LD circuitry but I am not an expert. Senor Hobbs would
be one. TVS don't work well. Their cutoff isn't terribly well defined
and they have too much capacitance for this. Just handle the things with
care. I've never killed one with ESD, knock on wood ;-)


While I found that a string of four 1N4148's produced a modelled overshoot
almost exactly like what I saw on an oscilloscope months before I considered
looking at spice, I got a very different result when trying four 1N4001's so
it really does need something better than reaching for a standard diode, in a
model OR as a dummy diode in a real circuit (where a optically dead laser
diode is best anyway). So it really comes down to trying to get something
usefully close! EDN's model seems ideal, aimed at solving this problem for
general use, as opposed to the elaborate models in private university
publications. EDN's is probably tested too, proofread and verified before
publishing.

http://www.e-insite.net/ednmag/archives/1998/071698/pdf/15di.pdf
(Halfway through file).


"File not found" :-(

Some of the 4000 series behave more like PIN diodes.
The higher-voltage ones ARE pin diodes. They can make excellent drift
step-recovery diodes and impact avalanche diodes. Need 1000 volts in
100 picoseconds?

John
 
Phil Hobbs wrote:
Lostgallifreyan wrote:
Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:7dc0a0F2aeembU1@mid.individual.net:

Ringing? I never had that. Don't drive them through a built-in
inductor :)


Not intentional.. I'm using an LM317. Yes, I know it's not the
approved way. It WORKS, far better than expected, and most people who
explore weird tricks with an LM317 are mightily impressed with it,
from the guy who built a class A headphone amp, or the radio ham who
built a transmitter round one...

My physical circuit build, AND the later spice modelling, both
indicate that an LM317 for a cheap way to get up to an amp-amd-a-half
of DC coupled proportional laser drive at up to 500 KHz is very likely
to work well. Maybe the inductance is in the LM317 model, I don't know
where else it can be in my simple circuit models. What's crucial is
that it is the SAME overshoot I saw in the real circuit so spice is
already telling me good things, and I've already improved the driver
on the strength of that spice model.

Ohhhhhh..... You're using a voltage driver, and trying to trick it into
being a current driver. Bad, bad, bad, bad news.

Due to the rolloff in the loop gain, the output of a voltage regulator
appears inductive, which will reliably give you a big noise peak if the
output cap is too big, and some ringing if it's too small. As Joerg
said, you're way better off using current drive. It isn't difficult,
just an op amp and a Darlington. Use the Darlington's collector as the
output, and sense the current in its emitter. Adding an outboard
current limit is easy then too.
You can build a current drive out of a LM317, I've even used it as an AM
modulator. But 500kHz, nope, it ain't going to go quite that far.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
 

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top