Arrow Keys Going Away

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:13:08 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

I needed a new kb so ordered one that looked nice, from Amazon. It was
a "gamer" keyboard with varying color LED backlights, weird layout,
and really klunky action. I threw it away.

Weird layout is what provides "product differentiation" or minor
changes that distinguish one product from the rest of the herd. If
the keyboard manufacturer can get a user addicted to that particular
form factor, they have a customer for life. I'm afraid I'm one of
those type of customers. I'm addicted to Dell SK-8135 keyboards, I'll
probably continue using them until the supply of used keyboards
evaporates and I'm forced tolerate something different.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=Dell+SK-8135&tbm=isch>
<https://steemit.com/diy/@ammonite/fixing-a-dell-sk-8135-keyboard>

As for the klunky action, that's really a benefit for gamers. I'll
assume it was a mechanical action keyboard, or possibly mechanical
keys with a membrane dome switch. These are highly prized by gamers
for their ability to survive constant pounding and fast response. I
can't offer any advice as to what keyboard might be good for your use
without knowing some details. However, in my limited experience with
my customers, a keyboard that is very much like their previous
keyboard is usually acceptable or best. Making a drastic transition
from one style to another is much less successful.

Lots of stuff on the be on mechanical vs membrane keyboards.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=mechanical+vs+membrane+keyboard>



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:32:47 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

You seem to be making sense, but not really. You say there are
alternatives for the arrow keys, but the arrow keys are still the
first choice, no?

No. For general use, the mouse is the first choice, the trackpad is
2nd, two fingers on the screen for tablets, and maybe the arrow keys
if I'm desperate. For gamers, WASD is the first choice:
"Why gamers use WASD to move"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPCpXXBHFSA>

I would have thought the second choice would be the numeric keypad
which gives arrow keys any time the numlock is off.

The only keys I use on the number pad is the <Enter> key, and maybe
entering the alt codes to enter graphics, special, weird, and foreign
characters. Also, when I have a broken key switch and need to emulate
the broken key:
<https://altcodeunicode.com>

None of that addresses why they would diminish the arrow keys and
the number pad anyway.

Methinks the above YouTube video might explain some of it. Try to
think like a teenager and see if you come to a different conclusion.
Hint: Winning the game is EVERYTHING.

There are still ash trays in many cars even though they are
typically not used.

I use the ash tray in my Subaru for parking meter change, keys, loose
hardware, and paper clips. The nearby cigarette igniter socket is
occupied by a USB power adapter used to charge my phone, GPS, 2way
radio, etc. If my car still had a buggy whip socket, I would use it
to mount an inverted broom or ham radio antenna.

Again, not closing the loop. If the RGB color shifting keyboards
are so special, why does MSI make so many that are only red?

I have no idea. When you first mentioned the problem in this
newsgroup, I was certain that no keyboard manufacturer could be so
stupid, especially on a high end gamer product. Yet, there were quite
a few red only keyboards. My guess(tm) is that someone in MSI was
living in the stone age and assumed that lighted keyboard was only
used by overworked engineers, late at night, working in the dark so as
not to wake their wives. That may have been the original target
audience, but was soon replaced by a much younger gamer market, which
had a very different use in mind. It was still useful for playing
games under the covers at night, but also useful for irritating
everyone within sight.

I don't see how my current illuminated keyboard is ugly with the
uneven edges.

You're probably accustomed to the ugliness. Ugliness is in the eye
(and mind) of the buyer. For example, I really like Steampunk
keyboards:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=steampunk+keyboards&tbm=isch>
However, nobody else I know likes them, especially after they've seen
the price tag. The few people that I know who own one tend to treat
them like a museum piece, instead of a utilitarian "appliance".

>Don't get what this has to do with tiny keycaps.

Mechanical keys need to have some vertical height. It can't be done
in a low profile key without compromises. Gamers want mechanical
keys. The sound is also important:
"WASD - Mechanical Keyboards Cherry MX Switch Sound Comparison 2017"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12L0QZFf2XA>

Incidentally, try this experiment. Find a mouse, low profile, and a
genuine mechanical keyboard (preferably with Cherry MX series). Setup
some kind of timer to count how many times you can hit one key (the
fire button) on the two keyboards and the mouse in a 1 minute time
period. No fair using software to program the fire button into a
machine gun. You'll find that the mechanical keyboard is the fastest
and least tiring.

The issue is not the height, it's the XY size. I recognized they
had crammed the two up/down arrow keys into the size of one key initially.
Then I found they shrunk the left/right arrow keys the same way and
left the rest of the space empty!!!

The issue is height. If you want a mechanical keyboard, each switch
is independent and the same size. So, you're stuck with a fixed
spacing. If you use a membrane dome switch, you can cram them closer
together. They do make smaller mechanical switches, but I haven't
seen any in keyboards yet.

What ever happened to "form follows function"???

Obsolete and replace by "Form follows Fashion".

Louis Sullivan is turning over in his grave

Sorry, I forgot to apologize for butchering is statement. However, my
adaptation is quite correct. Fashion is now driving aesthetics,
industrial design, human factors, features, and probably price in the
gaming market. However, don't panic. There will still be machines
designed for Neanderthal users who prefer the IBM Selectric keyboard
layout, clicky keys, everything in beige, and the Caps_Lock key.

>and I'm not buying a $1,200 piece of crap with a malformed keyboard.

Would you buy a $600 piece of crap with a malformed keyboard? Never
mind the features and ergonomics. At what price level will you be
willing to tolerate all your complaints?

>Sooner or later I'll find something worth while.

As price attrition takes its toll, and the game computer market
becomes saturated with strange stuff, the price will drop. Something
not so worth while will probably find you first.

Incidentally, the M6800 turned out to be real winner. No signs of
overheating for general use. However, the fan did come on and stay on
with high CPU usage. I replaced the original Toshiblah hybrid drive
with a Samsung 860 EVO and everything sped up about 3 times. Very
fast and very stable running Win 7 and Linux Mint 19.2 from a flash
drive. I had to slow the machine down with DOSBox in order to run an
ancient CAD program. No loose hinges or other screws (after I took it
apart and tightened everything). Really easy to work on. Thanks for
the hint.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:f0553cb8-4e8c-40a9-90e3-05fcbf7dd116@googlegroups.com:

Remember "Minority Report"?

A lot of that tech was real, and that was a long time before
"Fate
of the Furious".

The tech in Back to the Future was all real too. lol

--

Oh boy, we got us another lolTard.

Some of the tech in Minority Report was real, dipshit. It was the
beginnings of those types of panels.

Nice try though, twerp. Spout off about BTTF as if I said
something about it and would believe in things that are not possible.

No, fucktard... I was talking about things that are possible and
are real.

But you had to go and do your pathetic, childish loltard thing.

You were once likely someone to take seriously. Have discussions
with and such. But sorry, PUTZ, that last crack was you doing the
krw stupid boy dance... again.

Whenever you do that stupid shit, I will come back with it in your
face. Since you do it a lot... that putz moniker may not only
stick, but is a proper call too.

 

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news3bqoe1seg68huq92n0nu0dpb85bpmss8m@4ax.com:

Arrow
keys are used only by games who can't afford a gaming mouse,
joystick, etc, or don't know that the arrow keys are duplicated on
the number pad and as the ESDX or WASD keys, also known as the
"cursor diamond".

Cursor keys are used by plenty of folks. Bank tellers ALL use them
because their databases were set up such that the cursor keys could
move the user from one data field location to the next or previous.
Plenty of other uses too and easier in those instances than trying to
use the keypad assignments, since it was set to numeric.

There are games that use it too. Nethack, for instance, does not
use a mouse.

All of the old arcade games had four or eight way joysticks, unlike
modern games where they do not resolve position by way of switches.

When I play those old arcade games, the cursor keys can be set to
work on whichever games I am comfortable using them on.

 

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:1ldqoe5i4q1br2o23m1aqqhdtdp8lk7vmj@4ax.com:

I do disable Caps Lock. Why does anyone want Caps Lock?

A data entry session where all caps are needed in the fields.
Much easier than shifting each keypress.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 10:43:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Weird layout is what provides "product differentiation" or minor
changes that distinguish one product from the rest of the herd. If
the keyboard manufacturer can get a user addicted to that particular
form factor, they have a customer for life. I'm afraid I'm one of
those type of customers. I'm addicted to Dell SK-8135 keyboards, I'll
probably continue using them until the supply of used keyboards
evaporates and I'm forced tolerate something different.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Dell+SK-8135&tbm=isch
https://steemit.com/diy/@ammonite/fixing-a-dell-sk-8135-keyboard

I think that I still have some of those. I have about 150 used keyboards that will be donated to a local Veteran's group. They are all boxed and in storage right now, but I need to get rid of them.

 

[Peter]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news3bqoe1seg68huq92n0nu0dpb85bpmss8m@4ax.com:

Arrow
keys are used only by games who can't afford a gaming mouse,
joystick, etc, or don't know that the arrow keys are duplicated on
the number pad and as the ESDX or WASD keys, also known as the
"cursor diamond".

Cursor keys are used by plenty of folks. Bank tellers ALL use them
because their databases were set up such that the cursor keys could
move the user from one data field location to the next or previous.
Plenty of other uses too and easier in those instances than trying to
use the keypad assignments, since it was set to numeric.

There are games that use it too. Nethack, for instance, does not
use a mouse.

All of the old arcade games had four or eight way joysticks, unlike
modern games where they do not resolve position by way of switches.

When I play those old arcade games, the cursor keys can be set to
work on whichever games I am comfortable using them on.

It was Steve Jobs who originally banned these. He also banned the
installation of 3rd party keyboards on IOS devices.

He had some weird ideas. That stupid magnifying glass for cursor
positioning...

It wasn't until after he popped his clogs that Apple put them in.

 

Peter <nospam@nospam9876.com> wrote in news:qmklcs$2jq$2@dont-email.me:

It wasn't until after he popped his clogs that Apple put them in.

If only Trump had some clogs that will be popping.

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 11:28:38 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:32:47 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

You seem to be making sense, but not really. You say there are
alternatives for the arrow keys, but the arrow keys are still the
first choice, no?

No. For general use, the mouse is the first choice, the trackpad is
2nd, two fingers on the screen for tablets, and maybe the arrow keys
if I'm desperate. For gamers, WASD is the first choice:
"Why gamers use WASD to move"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPCpXXBHFSA

First choice of KEYS! The video does explain the gamer thing. Still, there's no reason to shrink the arrow keys. I guess they will shrink with every generation and eventually disappear. We need to provide some selective pressure to make them the same size as the other keys. Maybe it's time for me to make my own YouTube video.

I would have thought the second choice would be the numeric keypad
which gives arrow keys any time the numlock is off.

The only keys I use on the number pad is the <Enter> key, and maybe
entering the alt codes to enter graphics, special, weird, and foreign
characters. Also, when I have a broken key switch and need to emulate
the broken key:
https://altcodeunicode.com

I nearly never use the numbers at the top of the keyboard. Being an engineer I enter a lot of numbers. Anytime I'm not copy and pasting the numbers (fewer mistakes by far) it's with the numeric keypad.

How do you emulate a broken shift key? lol

None of that addresses why they would diminish the arrow keys and
the number pad anyway.

Methinks the above YouTube video might explain some of it. Try to
think like a teenager and see if you come to a different conclusion.
Hint: Winning the game is EVERYTHING.

You are thinking gamers. They started diminishing keys on regular laptops first.

There are still ash trays in many cars even though they are
typically not used.

I use the ash tray in my Subaru for parking meter change, keys, loose
hardware, and paper clips. The nearby cigarette igniter socket is
occupied by a USB power adapter used to charge my phone, GPS, 2way
radio, etc. If my car still had a buggy whip socket, I would use it
to mount an inverted broom or ham radio antenna.

I'm going to use it to add a couple/four USB outlets. I might be able to heat sink to the metal. But the point is, that's not why it's there. In fact they have places to put change in cars today, although that seems to be going away with the use of the EZ-Pass for tolls.

Again, not closing the loop. If the RGB color shifting keyboards
are so special, why does MSI make so many that are only red?

I have no idea. When you first mentioned the problem in this
newsgroup, I was certain that no keyboard manufacturer could be so
stupid, especially on a high end gamer product. Yet, there were quite
a few red only keyboards. My guess(tm) is that someone in MSI was
living in the stone age and assumed that lighted keyboard was only
used by overworked engineers, late at night, working in the dark so as
not to wake their wives. That may have been the original target
audience, but was soon replaced by a much younger gamer market, which
had a very different use in mind. It was still useful for playing
games under the covers at night, but also useful for irritating
everyone within sight.

I don't see how my current illuminated keyboard is ugly with the
uneven edges.

You're probably accustomed to the ugliness. Ugliness is in the eye
(and mind) of the buyer. For example, I really like Steampunk
keyboards:
https://www.google.com/search?q=steampunk+keyboards&tbm=isch
However, nobody else I know likes them, especially after they've seen
the price tag. The few people that I know who own one tend to treat
them like a museum piece, instead of a utilitarian "appliance".

I believe that's why they use Apples in TV shows so preferentially.

Don't get what this has to do with tiny keycaps.

Mechanical keys need to have some vertical height. It can't be done
in a low profile key without compromises. Gamers want mechanical
keys. The sound is also important:
"WASD - Mechanical Keyboards Cherry MX Switch Sound Comparison 2017"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12L0QZFf2XA

That still has nothing to do with the size of the keys, the XY size.

Incidentally, try this experiment. Find a mouse, low profile, and a
genuine mechanical keyboard (preferably with Cherry MX series). Setup
some kind of timer to count how many times you can hit one key (the
fire button) on the two keyboards and the mouse in a 1 minute time
period. No fair using software to program the fire button into a
machine gun. You'll find that the mechanical keyboard is the fastest
and least tiring.

For a while I played a game that basically consists of hitting the mouse button. I used a paint ball technique with two fingers and got up to 20 per second. Not tiring once your learn the technique.

Then I got the rapid clicker software and got up to about 50 clicks per second.

The issue is not the height, it's the XY size. I recognized they
had crammed the two up/down arrow keys into the size of one key initially.
Then I found they shrunk the left/right arrow keys the same way and
left the rest of the space empty!!!

The issue is height. If you want a mechanical keyboard, each switch
is independent and the same size. So, you're stuck with a fixed
spacing. If you use a membrane dome switch, you can cram them closer
together. They do make smaller mechanical switches, but I haven't
seen any in keyboards yet.

Sorry, you are talking about something completely different. I'm talking about the XY size of the key tops. The question is WHY, not HOW. I get that they want to make their computers sell the best which is often be tiny increments that would not matter to most businesses. So they make them look pretty. But gamers don't care so much about looks, they care about function. Smaller keys don't function as well no matter what part of the game they are used for.

What ever happened to "form follows function"???

Obsolete and replace by "Form follows Fashion".

Louis Sullivan is turning over in his grave

Sorry, I forgot to apologize for butchering is statement. However, my
adaptation is quite correct. Fashion is now driving aesthetics,
industrial design, human factors, features, and probably price in the
gaming market. However, don't panic. There will still be machines
designed for Neanderthal users who prefer the IBM Selectric keyboard
layout, clicky keys, everything in beige, and the Caps_Lock key.

No, there won't be laptops. If even the gaming market is moving away from function and chasing fashion, then it is game over.

What I'd really like is a common laptop form factor like they use in desktops so I can assemble my own laptop. But alas there is no such thing. Size and weight are such important selling features that no one is going to give up even a bit in order to fit a common form factor. Also, they don't really want commonality since they would then have less product differentiation.

and I'm not buying a $1,200 piece of crap with a malformed keyboard.

Would you buy a $600 piece of crap with a malformed keyboard? Never
mind the features and ergonomics. At what price level will you be
willing to tolerate all your complaints?

None. I can get what I want if I buy an older machine. In this case I think I'm going to fix the hinge first, then buy a new keyboard. I just need to find some videos to see how the whole thing comes apart. I don't have the work bench I used to have, but still have a table top.

Sooner or later I'll find something worth while.

As price attrition takes its toll, and the game computer market
becomes saturated with strange stuff, the price will drop. Something
not so worth while will probably find you first.

Incidentally, the M6800 turned out to be real winner. No signs of
overheating for general use. However, the fan did come on and stay on
with high CPU usage. I replaced the original Toshiblah hybrid drive
with a Samsung 860 EVO and everything sped up about 3 times. Very
fast and very stable running Win 7 and Linux Mint 19.2 from a flash
drive. I had to slow the machine down with DOSBox in order to run an
ancient CAD program. No loose hinges or other screws (after I took it
apart and tightened everything). Really easy to work on. Thanks for
the hint.

I'm glad it's working for you. The newer Precisions have the evil keyboards. Heck, the one I'm typing on do have slightly smaller numeric and arrow keys, but it's workable.

It all started when they shrunk the function keytops. I should have blown up a few PC factories back then and sent a message.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:19:22 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:1ldqoe5i4q1br2o23m1aqqhdtdp8lk7vmj@4ax.com:

I do disable Caps Lock. Why does anyone want Caps Lock?



A data entry session where all caps are needed in the fields.

I've never encountered anything like that.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:0r4soedg5qif07hi263s7hvbdkatqi25ku@4ax.com:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:19:22 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:1ldqoe5i4q1br2o23m1aqqhdtdp8lk7vmj@4ax.com:

I do disable Caps Lock. Why does anyone want Caps Lock?



A data entry session where all caps are needed in the fields.

I've never encountered anything like that.

There are plenty of situations. A company where their serial
number system uses caps with a person that must enter them in all
day.

You are not a data centric person.

You strike me as so Trumpesque that given the choice, you would
only make signatures all day, and you have never analysed data
collection means or methods in your life, much less now (onviously).
You routinely trivialize anyone or anything that you feel is 'not at
your level'. You are about as far off the mark as it gets.

All because *YOU* have no fucking clue as to what all the keys on
your computer keyboard are for.

Damn, boy, you are such a fucking simpleton. It matters not how
deep you think your electrical engineering acumen is. That is, in
fact, one of your main barriers.

You are like those self impotent lead guitarists.

You had a problem with a simple Fluke meter that pipes read data
into a spreadsheet.

 

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:38:42 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:0r4soedg5qif07hi263s7hvbdkatqi25ku@4ax.com:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:19:22 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:1ldqoe5i4q1br2o23m1aqqhdtdp8lk7vmj@4ax.com:

I do disable Caps Lock. Why does anyone want Caps Lock?



A data entry session where all caps are needed in the fields.

I've never encountered anything like that.

There are plenty of situations. A company where their serial
number system uses caps with a person that must enter them in all
day.

You are not a data centric person.

I've written a million lines of code or so. But most of the stuff I
code is case insensitive.

You strike me as so Trumpesque that given the choice, you would
only make signatures all day, and you have never analysed data
collection means or methods in your life, much less now (onviously).
You routinely trivialize anyone or anything that you feel is 'not at
your level'. You are about as far off the mark as it gets.

Show us something that you have designed. Something you have
programmed, too.

All because *YOU* have no fucking clue as to what all the keys on
your computer keyboard are for.

Damn, boy, you are such a fucking simpleton. It matters not how
deep you think your electrical engineering acumen is. That is, in
fact, one of your main barriers.

You are like those self impotent lead guitarists.

You had a problem with a simple Fluke meter that pipes read data
into a spreadsheet.

Did I? When?

I never use spreadsheets.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:25:18 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:38:42 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:0r4soedg5qif07hi263s7hvbdkatqi25ku@4ax.com:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:19:22 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:1ldqoe5i4q1br2o23m1aqqhdtdp8lk7vmj@4ax.com:

I do disable Caps Lock. Why does anyone want Caps Lock?



A data entry session where all caps are needed in the fields.

I've never encountered anything like that.

There are plenty of situations. A company where their serial
number system uses caps with a person that must enter them in all
day.

You are not a data centric person.

I've written a million lines of code or so. But most of the stuff I
code is case insensitive.

I actually designed a computer once, two boards full of TTL, for a
shipboard data logger. It had three instructions and a 20 KHz 3-phase
clock.

I was planning to use a ferrite-core braided-wire ROM for the program,
but then Harris or somebody introduced a fusible-link ROM, so we used
that.

We did a cross assembler as a few macros in MACRO-11. We later did a
6800-family assembler the same way.

Life's been fun so far.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 02:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell
<terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 10:43:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Weird layout is what provides "product differentiation" or minor
changes that distinguish one product from the rest of the herd. If
the keyboard manufacturer can get a user addicted to that particular
form factor, they have a customer for life. I'm afraid I'm one of
those type of customers. I'm addicted to Dell SK-8135 keyboards, I'll
probably continue using them until the supply of used keyboards
evaporates and I'm forced tolerate something different.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Dell+SK-8135&tbm=isch
https://steemit.com/diy/@ammonite/fixing-a-dell-sk-8135-keyboard

I think that I still have some of those. I have about 150 used keyboards
that will be donated to a local Veteran's group. They are all boxed and
in storage right now, but I need to get rid of them.

Cleaning 150 keyboards is not my idea of fun. I've done a bit of
experimenting over the years to see what works best. So far, the
winner is:

1. Blow compressed air (from an air compressor, not a can) through a
narrow nozzle that fits UNDER the keys. Blow horizontally, and all
the crumbs, crud, filth, hair, staples, etc, will low out the other
end. Move the nozzle around the outer edge of the keyboard to attack
the crud from all angles. You might need to use a pair of tweezers to
extract large dust balls and hair. You also might need to temporarily
remove a few key caps in order to give the air and crud an exit path.

1. After blowing out the crud, spray some kind of general purpose
cleaner (e.g. 409) over the key caps and sides. Use a soft rag (not a
paper towel) to wipe clean.

I hope this helps.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Sunday, September 29, 2019 at 1:15:36 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 02:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell wrote:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 10:43:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Weird layout is what provides "product differentiation" or minor
changes that distinguish one product from the rest of the herd. If
the keyboard manufacturer can get a user addicted to that particular
form factor, they have a customer for life. I'm afraid I'm one of
those type of customers. I'm addicted to Dell SK-8135 keyboards, I'll
probably continue using them until the supply of used keyboards
evaporates and I'm forced tolerate something different.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Dell+SK-8135&tbm=isch
https://steemit.com/diy/@ammonite/fixing-a-dell-sk-8135-keyboard

I think that I still have some of those. I have about 150 used keyboards
that will be donated to a local Veteran's group. They are all boxed and
in storage right now, but I need to get rid of them.

Cleaning 150 keyboards is not my idea of fun. I've done a bit of
experimenting over the years to see what works best. So far, the
winner is:

1. Blow compressed air (from an air compressor, not a can) through a
narrow nozzle that fits UNDER the keys. Blow horizontally, and all
the crumbs, crud, filth, hair, staples, etc, will low out the other
end. Move the nozzle around the outer edge of the keyboard to attack
the crud from all angles. You might need to use a pair of tweezers to
extract large dust balls and hair. You also might need to temporarily
remove a few key caps in order to give the air and crud an exit path.

1. After blowing out the crud, spray some kind of general purpose
cleaner (e.g. 409) over the key caps and sides. Use a soft rag (not a
paper towel) to wipe clean.

I hope this helps.

That is similar to my method:

I have cleaned hundreds of PC and other types of keyboards in the past 35+ years. I blow out the dust and crumbs, then I stand then up on one end in a laundry sink. I spray a fine mist of household ammonia on them, and wait a few minutes. I follow that with a fine mist of distilled water, to rinse off the dissolved crud. I leave them standing on end to dry overnight. I usually clean five to ten at a time so that I have clean spares when I need one. PC keyboards are a lot easier to clean than the early Commodore keyboards with the taller key caps. Some of those were so grubby that I had to remove the key caps, and the circuit board to soak the plastic frame. I would put a couple Alka Seltzer tablets in the bottom of a cut off two liter soda bottle and fill it about 2/3 full of the dirty parts, the add warm water to let the bubbles remove the crud. A soft nylon brush and running water got off anything that was left behind.

 

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote in
news:16e8b444-0a1c-4f52-bfe1-7cceede92e8b@googlegroups.com:

On Sunday, September 29, 2019 at 1:15:36 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 02:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell wrote:

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 10:43:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff
Liebermann wr
ote:

Weird layout is what provides "product differentiation" or
minor changes that distinguish one product from the rest of
the herd. If the keyboard manufacturer can get a user
addicted to that particular form factor, they have a customer
for life. I'm afraid I'm one of those type of customers. I'm
addicted to Dell SK-8135 keyboards, I'll probably continue
using them until the supply of used keyboards evaporates and
I'm forced tolerate something different.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Dell+SK-8135&tbm=isch
https://steemit.com/diy/@ammonite/fixing-a-dell-sk-8135-keyboa
rd

I think that I still have some of those. I have about 150 used
keyboards

that will be donated to a local Veteran's group. They are all
boxed and

in storage right now, but I need to get rid of them.

Cleaning 150 keyboards is not my idea of fun. I've done a bit of
experimenting over the years to see what works best. So far, the
winner is:

1. Blow compressed air (from an air compressor, not a can)
through a narrow nozzle that fits UNDER the keys. Blow
horizontally, and all the crumbs, crud, filth, hair, staples,
etc, will low out the other end. Move the nozzle around the
outer edge of the keyboard to attack the crud from all angles.
You might need to use a pair of tweezers to extract large dust
balls and hair. You also might need to temporarily remove a few
key caps in order to give the air and crud an exit path.

1. After blowing out the crud, spray some kind of general
purpose cleaner (e.g. 409) over the key caps and sides. Use a
soft rag (not a paper towel) to wipe clean.

I hope this helps.

That is similar to my method:

I have cleaned hundreds of PC and other types of keyboards in the
past 35+ years. I blow out the dust and crumbs, then I stand then
up on one end in a laundry sink. I spray a fine mist of household
ammonia on them, and wait a few minutes. I follow that with a fine
mist of distilled water, to rinse off the dissolved crud. I leave
them standing on end to dry overnight. I usually clean five to ten
at a time so that I have clean spares when I need one. PC
keyboards are a lot easier to clean than the early Commodore
keyboards with the taller key caps. Some of those were so grubby
that I had to remove the key caps, and the circuit board to soak
the plastic frame. I would put a couple Alka Seltzer tablets in
the bottom of a cut off two liter soda bottle and fill it about
2/3 full of the dirty parts, the add warm water to let the bubbles
remove the crud. A soft nylon brush and running water got off
anything that was left behind.

I have disassembled entire keyboards from the keycaps down to the
rubber table pads on the base, and washed each individual keycap in
the sink with Dawn while thinking of happy oil free duckling videos.
I clean the outer framework and base as well. No need for drip dry
when you re-assemble it with dry parts and never 'spray' it. And
with the keycaps pulled, one can clear all dust as well.

I bought an old early '70s Harmon Kardon receiver at a yard sale
for $15 one year that worked flawlessly except for the station
display cursor on the tuning dial (I know pretty major flaw). I used
it as my Front channel amp on my home video system. Anyway, I took
it home from the garage sale and took the front panel off to see how
bad the tuning dial problem was, and I washed each Aluminum piece
with dishsoapy water and a toothbrush and re-assembled it to look
like it was new, and it was full of cigarette nicotine when I
started. I was fairly pleased that it turned out so well.

 

On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 02:31:58 -0700 (PDT), mpm <mpmillard@aol.com>
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 6:21:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
It seems the last bastion of real keyboards is throwing in the towel. ....

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about the vanishing cursor keys on your computer.

Ever hear of "Alexa"? (Amazon Echo)
The whole damn keyboard is disappearing!

Bezos surely wants that. He'd love to listen in to everyone,
everywhere.

I do have to say, though, it's one of the FEW refinements that the millennial crowd has helped pushed to widespread adoption. That, and maybe eliminating cords from MP3 players.

Nope. Never going to happen in this house. My son gave us a smart
speaker a couple of Christmases back. It's still in the box, in the
basement.

Then there is the issue of working/surfing with others around. Dumb
idea made dumber.

 

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:25:18 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:38:42 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:0r4soedg5qif07hi263s7hvbdkatqi25ku@4ax.com:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:19:22 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:1ldqoe5i4q1br2o23m1aqqhdtdp8lk7vmj@4ax.com:

I do disable Caps Lock. Why does anyone want Caps Lock?



A data entry session where all caps are needed in the fields.

I've never encountered anything like that.

There are plenty of situations. A company where their serial
number system uses caps with a person that must enter them in all
day.

You are not a data centric person.

I've written a million lines of code or so. But most of the stuff I
code is case insensitive.

Ever use an 029 keypunch? Their caps lock keys are broken too. ;-)

 

On Sun, 29 Sep 2019 21:42:48 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:25:18 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:38:42 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:0r4soedg5qif07hi263s7hvbdkatqi25ku@4ax.com:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 05:19:22 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:1ldqoe5i4q1br2o23m1aqqhdtdp8lk7vmj@4ax.com:

I do disable Caps Lock. Why does anyone want Caps Lock?



A data entry session where all caps are needed in the fields.

I've never encountered anything like that.

There are plenty of situations. A company where their serial
number system uses caps with a person that must enter them in all
day.

You are not a data centric person.

I've written a million lines of code or so. But most of the stuff I
code is case insensitive.

Ever use an 029 keypunch? Their caps lock keys are broken too. ;-)

I interfaced a PDP-11 to one, to punch cards.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2019 21:42:48 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:

>Ever use an 029 keypunch? Their caps lock keys are broken too. ;-)

The Model 029 didn't have a caps lock key:
<http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/029.html>
The 029 was quite modern compared to the Model 026 that I used in
early college:
<http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/026.html>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558