Analog use of CMOS logic chips

J

Joerg

Guest
Hello All,

CMOS logic such as the CD4000 series, 74HC and others can be used as
amps, signals switches, you name it. However, there isn't much data
available if you want to do that in a design for series production. I
wrote to ON Semi about it today. Still, my question would be:

Is there any good resource on the web or elsewhere about this topic? I
did try Google a lot but other than the usual app notes about making
amps and stuff with CMOS inverters there wasn't much out there. Of
course one can always simulate and 'Monte Carlo' it all to death but I
am looking more for information and data for the conceptual phase.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
Joerg wrote:
Hello All,

CMOS logic such as the CD4000 series, 74HC and others can be used as
amps, signals switches, you name it. However, there isn't much data
available if you want to do that in a design for series production. I
wrote to ON Semi about it today. Still, my question would be:

Is there any good resource on the web or elsewhere about this topic? I
did try Google a lot but other than the usual app notes about making
amps and stuff with CMOS inverters there wasn't much out there. Of
course one can always simulate and 'Monte Carlo' it all to death but I
am looking more for information and data for the conceptual phase.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Click to expand...
The second half of my old purple RCA COSMOS data book is application
notes including several on analog design. You might look for one of
those.

Fairchild inherited some of those and has them on their web site,
including:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-88.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-118.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-140.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-340.pdf

--
John Popelish
 
Hi John,

Thanks, I didn't have the last two app notes so I printed them out. I
wish I had that old purple RCA book, the only one I have is the yellow
book but that is about linear chips. Its cover actually has turned from
yellow to 'bleached wheat' over the years.

What this proves time and again is to never throw away old databooks. I
never do. Sometimes whole datasheets disappear just a few years after
they obsolete a product. That is not good practice but unfortunately
pretty common.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
Hi Kevin,

I have made a few anlogue spice models of HC and CD gates, including the
4007 and 4066, using estimates and manufactures data. They are in the
usual
place:)


That is great. The 4007 and 4066 are almost analog devices though,
Click to expand...
basically CMOS switches. Somewhere I have seen a Spice model for the
4049UB but it only had 'typical' parameters in there.

Is your 'usual place' the models.zip file on your web site? Would these
work with PSIPCE?

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
Joerg wrote:
Hi John,

Thanks, I didn't have the last two app notes so I printed them out. I
wish I had that old purple RCA book, the only one I have is the yellow
book but that is about linear chips. Its cover actually has turned from
yellow to 'bleached wheat' over the years.

What this proves time and again is to never throw away old databooks. I
never do. Sometimes whole datasheets disappear just a few years after
they obsolete a product. That is not good practice but unfortunately
pretty common.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Click to expand...
This is the book (RCA COS/MOS Integrated Circuits, 1974) I was talking
about:
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y3571380Y0937926/103-2549282-0470214

--
John Popelish
 
CMOS logic such as the CD4000 series, 74HC and others can be used as amps,
signals switches, you name it. However, there isn't much data available if
you want to do that in a design for series production. I wrote to ON Semi
about it today. Still, my question would be:

Is there any good resource on the web or elsewhere about this topic? I did
try Google a lot but other than the usual app notes about making amps and
stuff with CMOS inverters there wasn't much out there. Of course one can
always simulate and 'Monte Carlo' it all to death but I am looking more
for information and data for the conceptual phase.
Click to expand...
There's a small chapter (about 30 sides) in the 'Motorola MCMOS Handbook',
1974, but it's probably not much more than the app notes already posted.

Tim

--
__________________________________________________________
Tim Stinchcombe

Cheltenham, Glos, UK
 
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:08:28 -0800, the renowned Tim Wescott
tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote:


The last place I worked has made it a practice (which I have adopted) of
_always_ archiving a manufacturer's electronic datasheet when a part is
designed into a product. This doesn't help you when you need to adopt
an older product from someone else, but it sure helps with maintenance.


Archive the errata too!


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Click to expand...
No, no, you can get in trouble for archiving the dirty pictures.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
 
"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:3dj7p09uoee093kuosnopgiluqcf4s0gdo@4ax.com...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:08:28 -0800, the renowned Tim Wescott
tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote:

The last place I worked has made it a practice (which I have adopted) of
_always_ archiving a manufacturer's electronic datasheet when a part is
designed into a product. This doesn't help you when you need to adopt
an older product from someone else, but it sure helps with maintenance.

Archive the errata too!
Click to expand...
And the application notes!
 
Tim Wescott wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Archive the errata too!

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany


No, no, you can get in trouble for archiving the dirty pictures.

Oh, wait -- errata, not erotica.
Click to expand...

Never mind :).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
 
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:<WXAkd.40602$QJ3.20679@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
Hello All,

CMOS logic such as the CD4000 series, 74HC and others can be used as
amps, signals switches, you name it. However, there isn't much data
available if you want to do that in a design for series production. I
wrote to ON Semi about it today. Still, my question would be:

Is there any good resource on the web or elsewhere about this topic? I
did try Google a lot but other than the usual app notes about making
amps and stuff with CMOS inverters there wasn't much out there. Of
course one can always simulate and 'Monte Carlo' it all to death but I
am looking more for information and data for the conceptual phase.
Click to expand...
Bob Pease's "What's all this CD4007 stuff, anyhow?" is a good start.

Even then, most manufacturer's CD4007 datasheets ignore the analog
aspects of the part.

More modern CMOS logic families with low operating voltages (1.5V and lower)
may present even better opportunities. The CD4007 isn't going to do you
much good below 3V.

Tim.
 
Hi Tim,

The last place I worked has made it a practice (which I have adopted)
of _always_ archiving a manufacturer's electronic datasheet when a
part is designed into a product. This doesn't help you when you need
to adopt an older product from someone else, but it sure helps with
maintenance.
Click to expand...

In med electronic you have to do that. Else the goons will come out and
then it's Sodom and Gomorra.

Each part must be released via ECO and this requires the data sheet from
each vendor to be included. Even if their parts are literally identical
such as SN74HC04N versus MC74HC04. In the olden days that meant the reps
learned very quickly that they better give us the data books right away.
A hindsight release was next to impossible no matter how hard they pushed.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
Hi John,

This is the book (RCA COS/MOS Integrated Circuits, 1974) I was talking
about:
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y3571380Y0937926/103-2549282-0470214
Click to expand...
Thanks! So there is a 2nd hand market for data books. That is great.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
The best analogue circuit I ever saw for a 4000 series IC used a 4007 as
follows...

The inverter was biased to linear operation with as little feedback as
possible. This gave a soft clipping (very valvey [tubey] sounding) distortion
for an electric guitar.

The mosfets were arranged (can't remember exactly how) so that one was in the
feedback path and could thus reduce the feedback, it's gate driven from the
rectified output, this gave an expansion and very hard clipping.

The other mosfet was used to reduce the gain, its drive signal again from the
rectified output, and thus give compression.

Various switch options allowed combinations of the three effects.

The circuit worked brilliantly, sounded terrific and used almost no power.

Very inventive

Gibbo
 
Hi Chris,

There is one that may top that: The "Datong Clipper". Made in England
and when it came out some time in the 70's I bought one right away.

Using a couple of 4007 chips and some other CMOS it mixes audio to a
frequency of 100Khz or so, clips there using Germanium diodes, then
mixes back down. All the harmonics fall out of band. That way you can
compress the heck out of anything. This was meant for radio
communication and it was considered the best performing clipper ever.
Once I convinced a friend to hook it up to his E-guitar rig. He ordered
one that same day.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
John Smith wrote:
"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:4192EA9A.72BABB9D@rica.net...

The second half of my old purple RCA COSMOS data book is application
notes including several on analog design. You might look for one of
those.

Fairchild inherited some of those and has them on their web site,
including:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-88.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-118.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-140.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-340.pdf

--
John Popelish

Some people are just extraordinarily good at searches. Thanks, John.
Click to expand...
You're welcome.

I had noticed exact copies of some of the old RCA ap-notes while
looking for something else. Most of the battle is remembering who
bought out whom.

--
John Popelish
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:36:29 -0800, Tim Wescott wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:08:28 -0800, the renowned Tim Wescott
tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote:


The last place I worked has made it a practice (which I have adopted) of
_always_ archiving a manufacturer's electronic datasheet when a part is
designed into a product. This doesn't help you when you need to adopt
an older product from someone else, but it sure helps with maintenance.


Archive the errata too!


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

No, no, you can get in trouble for archiving the dirty pictures.
Click to expand...
It's not necessary to archive those, if you have a pornographic memory.

;^j
Rich
 
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:04:01 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hi John,

This is the book (RCA COS/MOS Integrated Circuits, 1974) I was talking
about:
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y3571380Y0937926/103-2549282-0470214



Thanks! So there is a 2nd hand market for data books. That is great.

Regards, Joerg
Click to expand...
And this surprises you because ..... ?

Thanks,
Rich
 
Rich The Philosophizer wrote:
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:25:40 +0000, John Smith wrote:

Some people are just extraordinarily good at searches. Thanks, John.

Well, don't discount a thousand years of experience. ;-)
Click to expand...
A thousand years?! And I thought my aching back was making me feel
old.

--
John Popelish
 
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:33:03 -0500, John Popelish wrote:

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:25:40 +0000, John Smith wrote:

Some people are just extraordinarily good at searches. Thanks, John.

Well, don't discount a thousand years of experience. ;-)

A thousand years?! And I thought my aching back was making me feel
old.
Click to expand...
Well, that's "cumulative," of course.
(whatever-T-F that means. %-} )

;^j
Rich
 
In article <20041111172052.21610.00000558@mb-m12.aol.com>,
chrisgibbogibson@aol.com (ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:

The best analogue circuit I ever saw for a 4000 series IC used a 4007 as
follows...

The inverter was biased to linear operation with as little feedback as
possible. This gave a soft clipping (very valvey [tubey] sounding) distortion
for an electric guitar.

The mosfets were arranged (can't remember exactly how) so that one was in the
feedback path and could thus reduce the feedback, it's gate driven from the
rectified output, this gave an expansion and very hard clipping.

The other mosfet was used to reduce the gain, its drive signal again from the
rectified output, and thus give compression.

Various switch options allowed combinations of the three effects.

The circuit worked brilliantly, sounded terrific and used almost no power.

Very inventive

Gibbo
Click to expand...
I'd love to see that one posted if you ever come across it again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top