Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad a

[Danny D'Amico]

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/10989825326_f3fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/10989723005_3ee48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/10989888274_6ed9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:00:25 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described here:
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg2440-ac-transformer-24-vac-40-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

Anyone ever take them up on their "limited" lifetime warranty?
http://www.elkproducts.com/_literature_63744/P1216,TRG1640,TRG2440_Data_Sheet

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:04:21 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** Might seem clever to crosspost and then direct all replies to one NG -
but it ain't.
Cos no-body on "sci.electronics.repair" can see any replies at all.
And that is really stupid and annoying.

I apologize. As the record shows (in alt.free.newsservers), I had a problem with
aioe.org triplicating posts, which, after a while, caused aioe to drop all posts
due to "too many errors". Pan, my news client, didn't tell me, so, all posts
were lost.

So, I didn't have access to aioe.

When I asked what to do, people said to switch to Solani. But, Solani *forces* you
to have a single followup! You can't possibly have a followup to the groups you posted
to. I asked alt.free.newsservers *why* Solani does that, and, the answer came back
they can do whatever they want (so, the point is, that it doesn't make any sense).

I can't win either way.

After a few days, Aioe let me back in (this is a recurring theme with them); so,
hopefully, this will get to both groups (and also alt.free.newsservers) because
I'll send it via aioe.

Of course, it could just go nowhere ... and I'll never know, because Pan won't warn
me until it's too late (but that's in another thread to news.software.nntp).

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:42:54 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Me neither. I'll call them on Monday (they're not open weekends).

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.
PTCs self reset once they cool down.

It has had plenty of time to cool down!
I think the burnt plastic smell gives me a clue.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Danny D'Amico"

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

** There must be a fuse inside that unit - wired in series with the 16.5V
secondary.

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

** It's probably worn out .

Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

** Open circuit testing a gell cell tells you nothing.

(I don't know how to load it though):

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif

** The voltages on the transformer went high enough to cause a big increase
in current and fuse failure, maybe something inside the alarm box failed
too.

> Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.


.... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Danny D'Amico"

Phil Allison wrote:

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described here:
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg2440-ac-transformer-24-vac-40-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.

PTCs self reset once they cool down.

IME a tranny that is well made, moisture sealed and has a PTC in the output
ought to last 10 to 20 years.



..... Phil

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:06 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
Temperature Coefficient" fuses.

Ah. I see. Mine is at least ten (maybe twenty?) years older.

The old transformer you have has a short piece of tiny wire attached
in series to the secondary winding of the transformer

That would explain why it blew once, and then died.
I did smell burnt plastic; but the garage doors were open so it
dissipated too quickly for me to identify from where. It was only
a while later, after testing it, that I realized the power
transformer had blown.

I believe the blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module
may not work. It could have presented a short circuit to the power
transformer which popped the fusible link.

I guess the good news is that the newer transformer will survive that,
if when I put it in, that's the case of the shorted power circuit.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:

Alarm system transformer + power supply
(would both go bad at once?)
NO

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:

1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif

2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif

3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif

4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

This makes no sense to me; but I'm not an EE.

Does this (repeatable) information above tell us anything about
the power supply or battery?

Note: This dent in the capacitor was due to it being pressed
down against the transistor (I pushed it away):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11012334393_cd136e612d_o.gif

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:02:58 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

In your case, it's very easy to establish if the battery is the
problem or not. Measure the voltage with it connected to the alarm.

The strangest thing happened when I took you up on your suggestion!

A. The battery, connected to the power supply, was 12.87 volts:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/11012332223_24ba3777a7_o.gif

B. I also read 12.87 volts at the very edge of the power supply,
so, the wires are good:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/11012105955_96364f93f1_o.gif

C. I then got 12.87 volts between the battery and the GND spade on
the power supply board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif

D. But, the strangest thing is there is no voltage between the
battery and the PWR spade of the power supply:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of those conflicting results.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:20:19 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery?

Yes. 13.8 volts is "normal" for an open-circuit voltage.
The voltage is highest after charging, and then goes down, over
time, depending on the type of battery.

> If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and start from there.

I have no qualms about replacing stuff, but, I am trying to
debug first, *what* needs to be replaced (other than the transformer,
which is on order).

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

I'd measure before replacing anything, though the battery is likely
toast no matter what else is bad. Don't replace it until you're sure
that's the only thing that's gone.

That's exactly how I'm (trying to) handle it.

I don't have any problem replacing anything that tests bad; but, just
throwing parts at a problem isn't what I'm trying to do.

Of course, that means I need to look closely at the circuit board, as
that's the first step of any diagnostic procedure.

Looking at the BOTTOM of the circuit board, I find something
interesting at each end of the electrolytic capacitor leads:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/11013129635_251c6ff9ec_o.gif

It almost seems as if the capacitor overheated, but, it it not
an open circuit:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/11013119175_dfa5301efd_o.gif

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:32:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.

I just realized, that's *not* a power supply board!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/11013239006_7ef98f0bb4_o.gif

It says it's a "D135A Low Battery Disconnect", part number
79-04360401 (where the last 4 and last 1 might be another digit).

Googling, I find these datasheets:
http://resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_2548187915.pdf
http://www.boschsecurity.com.br/_archivos_productos_sitios_la/documentos/intrusion/EN/d135a_description_0910_en.pdf

Which say:
"The D135A works with compatible control panels to protect the
battery from deep discharge in the event of an extended AC
power outage. Disconnects the control panel from the battery
when the battery level drops to 9.5 VDC."

I find an installation guide here, which explains that the sticky tape
is because the module is supposed to be stuck onto the top of the battery:
http://tinyurl.com/p74he4t

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:41:40 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:29:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module.

You are correct! I had thought it was a "power supply" but it's not.
A sticker says it's a "D135A low battery disconnect", which is
apparently supposed to be sticky-taped to the top of the battery.

Googling, it's a 9.5 volt cutoff (as you said, to save the battery
from a deep discharge). I'm surprised you could tell that from
where you sit, because I only just realized that myself now.

The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer.

You seem to be familiar with this stuff but I must ask:

What is the "it" in the sentence above? The battery?
Or the low-battery protection board?

I would remove the module and hook the panel's power leads
directly to the battery.

Before I do this, may I clarify the suggestion?

Should I remove the D135A low-battery protection board, and then,
connect the battery directly to the black and red power leads of
the Radionics D2212B (LT) circuit board?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

> What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:50:17 -0600, RTS wrote:

> Dude, it looks to me like you got a bad module..

It seems that all three test bad:
1. The transformer has an open secondary
2. The low-voltage protection module has an open cap
3. The alarm system simply beeps when I plug in 12VDC

I plugged the 13.5V battery, without the ELK TRG1640 ac charger and
without the D135A low-voltage-protection board, into the
Radionics D2212B alarm system board.

The alarm beeped continuously, without any other indication of
working, and the current I measured was 98 ma continuous:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

Can all that really happen simply by shutting off the 200Amp main
breaker without also turning off the automatic power generator?

 

[NightcrawlerÂŽ]

"Danny D'Amico" <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6qmmh$usg$1@speranza.aioe.org...

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:

Alarm system transformer + power supply
(would both go bad at once?)
NO

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:

<snip>

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

What connects to this connector?

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

 

[NightcrawlerÂŽ]

"Danny D'Amico" <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6qoqr$46s$2@speranza.aioe.org...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:20:19 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery?

Yes. 13.8 volts is "normal" for an open-circuit voltage.
The voltage is highest after charging, and then goes down, over
time, depending on the type of battery.

If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and start from there.

I have no qualms about replacing stuff, but, I am trying to
debug first, *what* needs to be replaced (other than the transformer,
which is on order).

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.

The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

 

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/23/2013 10:44 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:06 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
Temperature Coefficient" fuses.

Ah. I see. Mine is at least ten (maybe twenty?) years older.

The old transformer you have has a short piece of tiny wire attached
in series to the secondary winding of the transformer

That would explain why it blew once, and then died.
I did smell burnt plastic; but the garage doors were open so it
dissipated too quickly for me to identify from where. It was only
a while later, after testing it, that I realized the power
transformer had blown.

I believe the blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module
may not work. It could have presented a short circuit to the power
transformer which popped the fusible link.

I guess the good news is that the newer transformer will survive that,
if when I put it in, that's the case of the shorted power circuit.

That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module. The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer. If you or one of your friends can
repair circuit boards, get him/her/it to take a look at it because it's
a fairly simple circuit. I would remove the module and hook the panel's
power leads directly to the battery. Hopefully, the battery charging
circuit on the panel's circuit board is not damaged. ^_^

TDD

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:39:07 -0600, NightcrawlerÂŽ wrote:

> http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/D2212B%20Installation%20Manual.pdf

That's a very nice find, especially since three things appear to have been blown
when I turned the power off without turning off the generator:

1. The ELK TRG140 16.5V AC transformer secondary windings are now open
2. The D135A battery-protection board cap is apparently blown
3. The Radionics D2212B alarm circuit board is apparently malfunctioning

The test of the Radionics board was to hook the battery directly to
the power and ground leads. That drew 98ma and the alarm system merely
beeped an incessant single beeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for the entire time that
I left the battery connected.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif