Advice requested from those of you who have successfully che

[John Harmon]

clare@snyder.on.ca actually said:

If you are going to measure the toe with a string, you may as well
forget about it. You can NOT get enough accuracy or repeatability to
determine if the toe is correct or not.

This is good advice that a string won't be accurate nor repeatable enough
for toe measurements.

Without pro equipment, to get
that granular in your measurement you NEED to extend your measurements
5 or 10 feet and measure with a goor steel tape measure, or extend the
displaced centerline accurately and measure with a steel rule.

This home-alignment howto shows camber in degrees and toe in both degrees
and in inches:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignment.html

The really good news is that the author suggests 0 degrees of camber,
which, it seems to me on initial thought, should be the easiest of all
angles to measure.

Using
the simple tape measure will give you the total toe - which will be
double the specified toe per wheel, and will not tell you if you are
off-center.

That same article shows how to get the individual wheel toe:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignpics/align3.jpg

Since this thread is all about practical advice, the great news is that the
article offered the following pragmatic recommendation of:
a. Zero degrees of camber for a street car
b. Zero toe
(or a smidge of toe of about 1/16" on each side for a total toe of 1/32")

Both those zeroes should be relatively easy to measure with shop tools, are
they not?

 

[John Harmon]

clare@snyder.on.ca actually said:

There is a saying about Bimmers.
If you have to ask how much - for anything - you can't afford to drive
a bimmer.. There are enough things that can go wrong in the front end
of one of those kraut-wagons that I think you are definitely being
penny wise and pound foolish trying to save $100 on the maintenance of
a late model Bimmer. Don't be such a cheap-ass. - or drive a Chevy.

I have multiple vehicles.

My japanese vehicle never breaks.
My bimmer always breaks.

I work on both of them just the same.

You want to know if anything is worn or bent - and measuring CASTER is
required as well to know.

My vehicle has never been in an accident but that's not really the point
because nobody will disagree with you that caster is part of an alignment
equation, and, that caster comes before camber which comes before toe.

This article shows that if you can measure camber, you can measure caster:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignment.html

Since my bimmer has no direct way to adjust caster, I'm skipping the
non-adjustable caster (for now) to concentrate on camber.

You really don't have your head around the
concepts well enough to understand WHY an alignment check should be
done properly.

I think that's an unfair statement that I don't understand why an alignment
measurement needs to be correct but certainly I am confused about how to
convert a toe specification that is given in degrees to a toe measurement
which will be made in inches.

What matters to an alignment check is simply that the manufacturer's stated
accuracy is achieved.

That accuracy, for my bimmer, is stated here:
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg

Your "quick check" is just that - and if you are at all
in tune with your car as a driver you will know there is something
wrong just as well by simply driving the car. If you are not "in tune
with the car" the Bimmer is wasted on you --- (as it is on the vast
majority of Bimmer owners)

The bimmer insult isn't really needed here since this is a technical
question, but it's fair to say that what you're saying is that "alignment
can be felt" but I would clarify that by adding "sometimes".

I'm not sure if you can feel the difference, for example, between 2 degrees
of negative camber in the rear wheels and 1 degree.

Over time, your tires will tell you; but waiting the 5K miles for the tires
to inform you of that difference is not a quick check by any means.

 

[John Harmon]

clare@snyder.on.ca actually said:

The accuracy of the level application on my one phone is out bt over
7 degrees. That is a simple "level" app..

This is the first indication of what's possible out of a mobile device in
this thread, so I thank you for figuring out that your level app has an
accuracy of plus or minus 7 degrees (if I understood you correctly).

How did you find that out though?

The "rigid" level
application on my Blackberry PlayBook is very accurate - How you
reference it to the wheel will be the biggest variable that can
through your accuracy off. A trammel type setup made from a straight
bar of metal (or "straight" hardwood) with 2 screws protruding to
reach the edge of the rim, adjusted to be identical in protrusion,
will transfer the wheel angle accurately to the "level". You can
determine if the rim is true to the spindle by checking the level with
the bar upright with the wheel turned 180 degrees to make sure the
reading is the same with the wheel turned.

I agree that the jig attached to the wheel has to be exactly on target
(within the stated accuracies, all of which add up).

Here's an example of a camber jig for home use:
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg

Here's an even better camber jig setup for home use:
http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png

WITH CARE you can check your camber to a reasonably high level of
accuracy. To get the camber "normalized" you need to roll the car
back and forth a few feet so the car "settles" on it's suspension.

This is good practical advice that you need to both roll the car back and
forth to let it settle on the suspension, and you need to add slip plates
under the wheels so that they slip nicely when adjusted.

A
professional setup uses a "slip plate" that allows the wheels to slide
in and out with little resistance. Normal procedure is to bounce the
car on the slip plates to "normalize" the suspension.

This is also good advice to bounce the car and to use slip plates for
measuring and adjusting toe so that the wheels move freely.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignpics/align3.jpg

I've done it long pre-smart-phone using a simple bubble level to
verify the alignment was "close enough" afterr an accident in central
Africa severely damaged the front of my Peugeot.

The really good news is that, like in your case, a simple bubble level
might suffice simply because a decent rear camber spec is zero degrees
anyway, which is the easiest angle to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png

In summary, what I've learned in the past day are a few things:

1. A practical value for rear camber is 0 degrees to a smidge negative
2. A practical value for toe-in is 0 inches to a smidge positive (inward)

Both those are so close to zero that I can check that they are zero, and
then I can tweak them to a "smidge" inward.

But that is a different problem from checking them, which seems to be
easily doable using a few common tools based on my googling today:
http://www.tomhoppe.com/index.php/2009/02/cheap-digital-camber-gauge/

 

[John Harmon]

nospam actually said:

But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm
almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement.

not if you want to do it correctly, you won't.

This article states that you can get as accurate at home as you need to:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-1010-diy-wheel-alignment/

Here's how they measured toe-in, for example:
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/30286048+w+h+q80+re0+cr1/modp_1010_06_o%2bdiy_wheel_alignment%2bstring_box.jpg

Notice they measured toe in linear measurements.

 

[John Harmon]

clare@snyder.on.ca actually said:

Total toe iis the difference between the track at the
front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire.

Ah! My bad. Thank you for that correction.

Until you admonished me, I had previously thought total toe was just the
toe of both wheels to the centerline added up.

I stand corrected.

So "total toe" is the difference between the tracking of the front of the
tire and the rear of the tire (measured to centerline of the vehicle).

The specification on the Bimmer and most cars today is given as the
toe PER SIDE, which theoretically is 1/2 of the total toe..

Yes.

The toe
per wheel is measured to the parallel longitudinal axis of the vehicle
and is given per wheel to enable centering of the steering linkage so
the car goes straight when the wheel is centered.

Thank you for this pragmatic advice that the toe per wheel is given so that
we can keep the steering wheel centered while doing the job.

The reason the measurements are given as an angle is because that is
essentially what you are setting.

Thank you because, when I read the next sentence, for the first time, I
understood why toe is specified as an angle!

You are setting the angular
relationship between the wheel and the longitudinal axis of the car.

Ah. Yes. This is true that the *angle* is the angle of the wheel to the
centerline of the vehicle.

It's a tiny angle which is very close to zero; but it's an angle for sure!

Is this diagram I just made modified correct for that angle?
http://i.cubeupload.com/rtvi9L.gif

A
linear measurement is not an accurate specification because different
diameter wheels can be used on vehicles, and the displacement of the
neasurement from the rolling axis of the tire affects the linear
measurement, but not the angular measurement.

Ah. I see what you're talking about.
Thanks for that pragmatic advice!

Is this diagram that I just made showing what you just said?
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

If you are not using professional equipment and you are depending on
calculated linear measurements the ONLY way to aproach the accuracy
BMW is specifying is by extending the measurement to at least 3 feet,
prefferably 6 to 10, and calculatinf the offset at that point.

I don't understand that statement.
I was trying to draw what you said but I don't know which way to extend.

In which direction do I extend the line?
In front of the car?
Or to the side?

 

[John Harmon]

clare@snyder.on.ca actually said:

Total toe iis the difference between the track at the
front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire. devided by 2.

Thank you for your pragmatic advice.

Is this diagram I just made correct for total toe?
http://i.cubeupload.com/kYxrgm.gif

 

[John Harmon]

clare@snyder.on.ca actually said:

You can educate youself on what an alignment consists of, and
understand what is involved, without doing it yourself. I think your
problem is you have a fear of mechanics - an ingrained mistrust -
combined with a very tight grip on your money (although how that goes
along with driving a wiener wagon, I cannot for the life of me figure
out)

I appreciate your advice.
Here are the diagrams I made for toe based on your pragmatic advice.

1. This shows why toe is specified as an angle to the centerline:
http://i.cubeupload.com/rtvi9L.gif

2. This shows why an *angle* is better than a distance specification:
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

3. This shows that Total Toe is a distance while toe is an angle:
http://i.cubeupload.com/kYxrgm.gif

If that is correct, the only problem I have understanding in the spec is
why the total toe is specified in angles when it should be the difference
in the distance between the front and rear tracks to the centerline:
http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg

 

[John Harmon]

nospam actually said:

My japanese vehicle never breaks.

buy another

My bimmer always breaks.

sell it or give it away

My japanese vehicle is sort of like Android; it just works.
The bimmer is more like my iPad; it constantly can't do basic stuff.

 

[John Harmon]

Ed Pawlowski actually said:

My reply is strictly based on the fact that you come across as an
arrogant prick telling poeple who may reply..

I understand your reply (which was that I sounded arrogant to you when I
asked people who wouldn't be adding any value not to respond).

And you must understand mine, which is that I was trying to prevent a huge
waste of time becuase *most* people wouldn't dare contemplate checking
their camber (or toe) at home.

The problems with doing alignment at home stem first from *understanding*
the specs, which it is clear, I'm still grasping.

After the specs are understood, then the next problem is measuring the
camber and toe.

And the third problem is adjusting them.

This thread is only about measuring them, but I agree, my confusion on toe
angles slowed things down.

 

[John Harmon]

Scott Dorsey actually said:

The japanese vehicle you can drive and drive without doing any maintenance and
it won't break until all of a sudden everything fails. The BMW requires a lot
of very specific maintenance, and you need to keep on top of that maintenance,
and if you do not do it, it will break. But, you can drive it for a long, long
time before everything fails.

Maintenance is better than repairs any day, though.

To put the difference more honestly, I've had both vehicles for more than
15 years each so I know their personalities well.

The Toyota almost never breaks down, but when it does, the fix is generally
simple and easy to do where parts are easy to find and relatively
inexpensive. Yet, it doesn't handle as well (although it's a different type
of vehicle altogehter).

But here are the "problems" I've had with the Toyta:
1. The transmission shift lever uses idiotic plastic bushings (replaced 2x)
2. The sway bar used buna rubber bushings (replaced with poly bushings)
3. The electrical antenna keeps breaking (I finally gave up on it)
4. The torsion clutch pedal spring is stupid (replaced with linear spring)
5. The digital clock digits go out (gave up after fixing it twice)
6. The oil filter housing gasket leaks (fixed by replacing it)
8. The door opening mechanism failed (replaced with OEM)
9. The front shocks were toast within five years (replaced w Bilsteins)
10. The rear brakelight stopped working (sanded a few times & is now fixed)
Plus assorted standard maintenance (belts, clutch, fluids, brakes, etc.).

The bimmer constantly breaks down, but its handling is nice. However, it's
important to know that the bimmer I have is the E39 which has about 20
items made like crap, where *everything* else is rock solid.

So the twenty items made like crap on the E39 are, offhand:
1. The cooling system (mostly the idiotic plastic expansion tank)
2. The DISA valve (mostly an idiotic plastic flap pin)
3. The window regulators (two idiotic plastic rollers)
4. The Bosch ABS control module (an idiotic internal wire badly mounted)
5. The seats twist (idiotic sleeves on the many motor control cables)
6. Instrument cluster pixels die (idiotic pink stickytape connectors)
7. The headlight adjustment (idiotic plastic adjustment pins break)
8. AC control (idiotic FSU/FSR blows its mosfets time and time again)
9. CCV (aka PCV) (idiotic design creates mayonaise in cold weather locales)
10. Doors leak water (idiotic lack of glue in the vapor barrier adhesive)
11. Trunk wiring (utterly idiotic design has no concept of opening flex!)
12. Temperature (idiotic placement of the ambient temperature sensor)
13. Windshiled washer system (the entire design is idiotic)
14. Jack pads (idiotic lack of a center pin was replaced under TSB)
15. AC odors (idiotic lack of a way to vent collected water)
16. The cupholders (idiotic design can't be fixed - just throw it away)
17. Wood trim (idiodic material was never tested for lifespan)
18. Windshield molding (idiotic use of recycled rubber was a disaster)
19. Power steering leaks (idiotic design of the I6 hoses & V8 brackets)
20. The front shocks were toast within its first year (warranty fix)
Plus assorted standard maintenance (belts, clutch, fluids, brakes, etc.).

My summary, after owning both from new for over fifteen years each is that
the BMW is a pain in the ass to repair whenever something does go wrong,
and things go wrong a lot because BMW doesn't know how to design a complete
car but the handling is phenominal and the engine is bulletproof.

Meanwhile, the Toyota is a dream child to repair when something does go
wrong (which is almost never) simply because Toyota knows something BMW
doesn't know, which is how to design a complete vehicle.

But all this is OT.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:01:12 AM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
re now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot.

Hey Peter, why all the hate?

Hatred? That is an emotion that takes effort and requires knowledge of the actual target beyond the initial idiocy.

Harmon/Alger is a troll whose sole purpose in life is to spin the wheels of the otherwise well-intentioned by inveigling them into meaningless discussions over processes that have no relevance in reality. Usually continued so long that the "horse" is not only dead, but skinned, flayed and flensed.

He cannot read for content. As the processes over which he appears to be confused are rather obvious. Which means either one of two things:

a) he is invincibly ignorant.
b) he enjoys spinning peoples' wheels.

Whether the former or the latter, he has no place in a reasonable discussion as he cannot be reasonably, nor engage in meaningful discussion.

Again, the sharpest tool he should be allowed is a rubber spoon as he is clearly a danger to himself or others who may be victims of his ineptitude.

I would have a great deal more respect for him were he to sign his real name. But that he changes it as often as he (likely) changes his socks is the certain indication of his status as a troll.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[amdx]

On 12/9/2016 7:47 AM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:54:19 PM UTC-5, John Harmon wrote:

So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?

You are now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot.

Hey Peter, why all the hate?
How is the rest of your life, do you treat everyone this way?
I think I have posted a pretty good explanation to try and give him the
understanding he is missing.
I did it without one vile word.
In fact, I enjoyed it. How joy did you have in your response?
None, you were mad. Huh! How silly. If you are not happy making
a response, why do it.
Mikek

 

[amdx]

On 12/8/2016 7:36 PM, amdx wrote:

On 12/8/2016 6:54 PM, John Harmon wrote:
amdx actually said:

But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
That depends on the length.

Following that statement to the logical next step, here is a
representiative track for my sedan from this thread:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1312326-1998-BMW-528i-Complete-FRONT-Suspension-Overhaul


That photo says that the track is:
- Front Track Width = 1512 mm
- Rear Track Width = 1526 mm

So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?

Just Repeating so you don't miss my post.
I would like to know if my explanation made any sense to you.
Be sure to use the trig calculator to help you understand.
Maybe even draw out a few right triangles get the idea

You have a misunderstanding.
To figure millimeter or inches, you need to have two lines that are connected like a below,

l****/
l /
l /
l /
l/
The angle between l and /, we will call 1/60 of a degree,
the **** is the millimeters or inches, BUT, the quantity of millimeters
or inches depends on the length of l, as you can see the longer l the
larger **** will be. But the angle stays the same.


Use the link below
may help you see it.



http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp
I put in a 1 degree angle for (angle a) and 16" for
(side B) Then hit calculate to find (side a).
This says you need 0.279" of tilt top to bottom
on a 16" wheel.
Note: this triangle is rotated 90* to your wheel.
So take that into account when thinking about the calculation.
Bottom line, for a 1 degree angle you need a tilt of 0.279" over 16".
That's measurable, but you need a post 90* off the floor to measure from.
Second note: Side (a) the tilt at the top (mm or inches), Side (b) is
perpendicular to the floor, Side (c) would be the tilt of the wheel.
Angle (a) is the degrees of the angle you set.

Mikek

 

>"Meanwhile, the Toyota is a dream child to repair when something does go
wrong (which is almost never) simply because Toyota knows something BMW
doesn't know, which is how to design a complete vehicle. "

It gets better than that. I used to work with a guy from Poland. Said he could not believe how many tools you need for cars in the US, which includes Toyotas. Says the ones they sell over there come apart with like a half dozen wrenches while here you need all kinds of Torx and whatever else they can invent.

For reasons beyond the scope of this text which is already beyond the scope of this thread, people over there have more of a tendency to fix their own stuff. Seems people in the US are getting lazy, to the point where they will jiggle the handle on the toilet for ten years rather than to adjust it.

 

"You have a trig problem and a measurement problem.
The measurement problem is more difficult. "

I was wondering when someone was going to mention trig.

What he needs is something to act as a really huge caliper. Looking at the bottom of most cars there is no centerline to be found.

Actually is you can be absolutely sure the car is on a level surface, something like a plum bob could work. Measruing it accurately is still a problem, from the rim to a string ? And adjusting to minutes with only like 16" to work with ? No thanks.

But the good news is that you don't need the BMW alignment machine, they are not really brand specific. That means he does not have to go to the dealer and pay three times what an independent would charge.

On older cars I did set the toe in a few times. There was enough clearance to measure underneath wheel to wheel. Whaddya think the odds of that are here ? Did Slim leave town ? I never set caber or caster in the old backyard, but usually you don't heave to, even after replacing ball joints. They have to pretty far out of spec to affect it enough, really. Still, usually I would just pay the damn forty bucks and have it aligned. Of course that forty bucks is now a hundred, but how much is a set of tires ? A nice set of Dunlops or Michelins is worth the cost of an alignment, plus the car handles better. Plus with really good tires it rides better and quieter.

But some people are penny wise and pound foolish.

 

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:34 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

tlvp actually said:

Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones.
An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp

I agree that I'm confused (which is why I am hesitating to respond because
I don't wish to muddy the technical issue further for everyone).

The problem with doing camber at home is different from the problem of
doing toe at home.

For my bimmer, the camber is specified in degrees, and the measurement
tools we're exploring measure in degrees.

We just have to solve the conceptually simple problem of
a. Accuracy to 1 minute of angular measurement
b. Creating a wheel plate that meets that accuracy
c. Measuring to that accuracy with a mobile device

The problem, for my bimmer, is that the manufacturer specifies the toe in
degrees, yet we measure in inches. The conversion confuses me to no end
(which is obvious to all).

However, that specific translation problem may be solved if I trust this
layman's chart, for a similar vehicle:
http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html

Which puts the toe-in in inch measurements of:
Front toe (left): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
Front toe (right): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
Front toe (total): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/16"

As with all specs written by laypeople, I can't tell if that toe is to the
centerline of the bimmer or wheel to wheel but since they specify a
single-wheel toe, can I safely presume that the spec is to the *centerline*
of the vehicle?

No you can not. Total toe iis the difference between the track at the
front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire. devided by 2.
The specification on the Bimmer and most cars today is given as the
toe PER SIDE, which theoretically is 1/2 of the total toe.. The toe
per wheel is measured to the parallel longitudinal axis of the vehicle
and is given per wheel to enable centering of the steering linkage so
the car goes straight when the wheel is centered.

The reason the measurements are given as an angle is because that is
essentially what you are setting. You are setting the angular
relationship between the wheel and the longitudinal axis of the car. A
linear measurement is not an accurate specification because differen
diameter wheels can be used on vehicles, and the displacement of the
neasurement from the rolling axis of the tire affects the linear
measurement, but not the angular measurement.
If you are not using professional equipment and you are depending on
calculated linear measurements the ONLY way to aproach the accuracy
BMW is specifying is by extending the measurement to at least 3 feet,
prefferably 6 to 10, and calculatinf the offset at that point.

But I'm wasting my breath - You've been told this several times and it
has not gortten through to you. Stop being a cheap-assed wannabee,
find a good mechanic - and TRUST HIM. Pay him what the job is worth.
If you can't afford to proain a bimmer, drive a bloody Chevy!!

 

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:35 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

tlvp actually said:

You need a cataly$t, and a good front end man. Bring your vehicle to the
front end man, lubricate him with your cataly$t ($100 should do nicely),
and he'll perform the conversion for you, even adjusting things to the
result you would desire (key word or phrase: "wheel alignment").

Anyone can catalyze a reaction, but the catalyst remains unchanged.

That is, if I do that, I learn absolutely nothing.

I remain as uneducated as before.

You can educate youself on what an alignment consists of, and
understand what is involved, without doing it yourself. I think your
problem is you have a fear of mechanics - an ingrained mistrust -
combined with a very tight grip on your money (although how that goes
along with driving a wiener wagon, I cannot for the life of me figure
out)

 

[nospam]

In article <o2epef$4s4$1@news.mixmin.net>, John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm
almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement.

not if you want to do it correctly, you won't.

 

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 16:58:31 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Ed Pawlowski actually said:

I've done wheel alignment in my garage

What we don't want is advice from people who would never contemplate doing
a camber measurement at home.

I've done it at home and on the side of the road. I've also done it
hundreds of times with professional equipment.

We want advice from people who have actually checked camber at home:
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg

My advice is YOU will not measure it accurately enough, and camber
isn't the only angle you need to check, and the other angles are more
difficult to measure - with caster being virtually impossible for you
to measure without proper equipment.

All the advice from tlvp, for example, of why he would NOT to check his
camber at home is and was already known before he posted anything. He added
negative value to this thread.

Since he would never do it, he has never thought about how to do it, and
since he not only knows not how to do it, but more importantly, he has
never done it, so his advice not to do it doesn't help anyone.

He simply wasted everyone's time with his fear-filled response.

And a fairly accurate response.

Likewise, you waste everyone's time with your I-won't-tell-you response.
If you're not going to tell anyone anything, then why bother responding?

And I've told you

Besides, you only pretend to have done it, which is fine, but you playing
make believe doesn't help anyone here. I knew all this would happen,
because most people are utterly horrified at the mere thought of checking
camber at home so I was trying to avoid having to respond to comments like
yours and tlvp's which simply waste everyone's time.

Based on these specs ( http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg) the measurement
range is plus or minus 3 degrees to an accuracy of plus or minus one
minute.

If we can't achieve one minute of accuracy out of a mobile device, what
*is* the accuracy thqt we *can* achieve out of a mobile device?

It depends a whole lot on the mobile device, on the application you
are using, and how you apply it.

"design it in autocad, lay it out with a string, mark it with a
crayon, and cut it with an axe"

That about describes the accuracy of your approach. Is it POSSIBLE to
be accurate in that scenario?? Of course, if you try often enough -
but your repeatability is not going to be very good.

 

[nospam]

In article <o2ercj$8g5$1@news.mixmin.net>, John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

> My japanese vehicle never breaks.

buy another

> My bimmer always breaks.

sell it or give it away