Advice requested from those of you who have successfully che

[John Harmon]

Bill Vanek actually said:

The old standard was always about +- 1 degree, when you had no other
specs to go by. Enthusiast cars like the BMW have different needs for
handling purposes.

I just looked that up for my two cars.

The Toyota spec for the front camber is -.6? to .9? which is exactly in the
range you suggested.

The BMW rear camber E39 I6 and 540 models with "standard," "low slung
sport" and "M-sport" suspensions spec is apparently -2 deg 10 minutes. The
tolerance varies among options: either +/- 20 minutes or +/- 25 minutes of
angle.

The M5 spec is -1 deg 50 minutes perhaps due to 275/35 section width tires
vs 225/55 for I6 cars.

I hate to say this, but you can get pretty close just eyeballing toe
and camber. Especially with camber, if you can't see any substantial
lean, the camber is probably close enough that it won't cause tire
wear. In a pinch, it works for toe, too.

For the caster on the toyota of 1.7 to 3.2 degrees, I am not yet sure how
to measure it for the Toyota but I won't have to bother for the bimmer
because caster isn't adjustable.

For the camber of -.6 to .9 degrees for the Toyota, I think I'll use a
magnetic base inclinometer such as the Husky 10-inch Home Depot electronic
level.

I think I'll just set the toe to 1/16th of an inch less in the front tread
(measured as close to centerline of the wheel as possible) than in the back
tread to centerline of the vehicle.

That will give me a total toe of 1/8th inch on the Toyota.
I'll use toe plates and a tape measure, I think.

It's not necessarily a repeatable test, though. The one time you do
that, you might have gotten lucky.

True. But it would be free if I got lucky!

They are expected to print out the readings, so it takes some effort
to lie. I'm sure they usually find something, but that's only because
cars do go out of alignment.

But if I align it first, it should be within spec, at least for what can be
aligned, which is, for the toyota, front caster, camber, and toe, and for
the bimmer, rear caster and toe and front toe.

I'm pretty sure that none of the manufacturers expect techs to load a
car before alignment anymore. The specs take into account average
occupant weights.

The 500 pound loading on a bimmer is for a different purpose.
You are supposed to put 100 pounds on the driver seat, 100 pounds on the
passenger front seat, and 200 pounds evenly spaced on the rear bench and
100 pounds in the trunk.

That artificially "lowers" the car to a specific "ride height" which all
BMW alignment specs are to.

There is much discussion of why BMW uses that artificial ride height to
normalize all their specs, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the
"typical" loading of a vehicle with a driver.

I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car
taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.).

And I doubt that it makes the least bit of difference.

I mostly agree with you that when the tire shop torques *all* lug nuts and
bolts to the same 100 foot pounds, it probably doesn't hurt anything. Nor
if they fill up all tires to the same 40 psi, again, it won't kill anyone
(even though BMW specifies different pressure for the front versus the
rear).

That they pry off the BBS hubcaps with a screwdriver just breaks the
plastic tabs. And that they don't remove all the old weights just makes
them put more on each time (and increases the chances of an imbalance from
a lost weight).

And that they don't mount the tire with the red or yellow dots to the valve
stem or match mounting mark just means they'll use more weight than
necessary.

That they don't even torque the bolts in a star pattern probably only makes
the wheel slightly crooked.

So, I agree with you that the fact that no tire is ever mounted correctly
isn't causing accidents left and right.

But it's still wrong.

 

[Bill Vanek]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:37:01 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Bill Vanek actually said:

I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a
troll. There is some very simple math involved here.

Hi Bill,

If you can answer this question then it will show that you actually
understand what you call *simple math*.

Here is the question:
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif

Summarized, that says: If total toe is the difference in toe between the
rear and front of the tire, and if the difference in angles between the
rear and the front of the tire are exactly the same (by definition, since
the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the car is the
same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination is!), then how the heck
can total toe be specified in degrees?

I replied to your original question days ago, and you ignored that
reply. Regardless of that, your questions have been answered
repeatedly. Toe *is* an angle, but if you know the outside diameter of
the tire, it can also be spec'd in inches, or any other linear
measure. The conversion involves only the measure of sides of a
triangle, which is really basic math. This is my original reply:


Inches depends on the outside diameter of the tire:
https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm

Minutes to degrees can be found here:
http://zonalandeducation.com/mmts/trigonometryRealms/degMinSec/degMinSec.htm

Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are
trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause
any meaningful tire wear. Toe is much more critical, including for
overall feel at higher speeds, but you are also dealing with runout,
and there really isn't any good way to adjust for that at home.

The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the
tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can
be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation. Toe is much
more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do
it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's
exactly right.

You also have to keep in mind that a rear drive car's toe out will
increase with speed, and a front drive car will do the opposite. There
is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied
readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying
to save money is not such a good idea.

At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a
challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there.

If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't
be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are
trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear
purposes, pay someone.

 

[Bill Vanek]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:49:28 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

It's not the math (the math is easy); it's the concept of total toe having
anything whatsoever to do with degrees when it's merely the difference in
toe between the front and rear of the tire when the angle at the front and
the rear is (by virtue of straight lines) exactly the same!

That is not at all what total toe means. 0 degrees of toe for a wheel
is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car
(that is a simplification, but it's usable here). Toe is a measure of
the variance in degrees from straight ahead. Total toe is merely they
sum of the toe in degrees of both the left and right sides. So if the
left is +2 degrees, and the right is -2 degrees, the total toe is 0
degrees. That means minimum tire wear (theoretically), but the
steering wheel will be a bit off-center.

The difference between the front and back of the tires is used only
for distance measure, not angles.

 

[John Harmon]

Scott Dorsey actually said:

I mean the big rubber hose going between the throttle body and the airflow
sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car
starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping
adhesive for a while until after a while you can't.

Oh, yeah. I know it all too well.

My first smoke test for a lean condition showed a crack on the *underside*
of that large ribbed tube. A few years later, my second smoke test showed
that the tubes sticking out had leaks.

It would have been cheaper to just replace the damn things, instead of
doing all those expensive smoke tests, which was your point, I agree!

The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear
regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat
of course.

Maybe you can answer a question which has irked me for years.
As you know, the AC/Heating system is "fully automatic" meaning it's not
intended for manual control, so, the blower starts at whatever settting it
wants to start at when you start the car, no matter what setting you left
it at when you last shut down the car.

I *always* adjust that, either to *off* or to the midway position.

But what I always wondered was, if the blower is on at all, whether the
full on, or midway position caused less stress on the FSU?

I'm guessing from something a guy named cn90 and jim cash wrote that I
found by googling, that the midway position is least stressful for that
TO220 FET (there are three of those MOSFETs aren't there?).

Which blower position do you think is least stressful on that MOSFET driver
if the blower is on?

1 bar
5 bars
10 bars

In Germany it's not a problem, but in Florida it fails pretty
promptly. There are a couple places that have retrofit ones with big
heatsinks. There have been a couple people talking about making PWM retrofits
but nobody has done it yet that I know.

I know when my FSU failed the first time, it was so hot I burned my hand
trying to get it out of those Germanic clips. The second one failed without
heat, as did the others (where they failed in a way that gave the AC/heater
controls a mind of their own).

Tried Formby's Furniture Refinisher or maybe just xylene on it to liquify
the varnish and redistribute it?

Nope. I didn't know about that trick. Maybe I'll try since it's just the
varnish that is cracked.

I would tend to disagree, with a few exceptions like the cooling system
which really IS shameful.

The ABS "trifecta" failing on the E38, E39, and E46 is also shameful.
So is the trunk wiring loom fraying on almost every vehicle.
And the headlight adjusters crumbling on some of the models like mine.

> I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like BMWs

Thanks for your insight.
Very interesting!

 

[Vic Smith]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:08:52 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Yes, you need to change your brake fluid

Hi Scott,

In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue
stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber"
ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber.

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,

I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.

 

[AMuzi]

On 12/10/2016 6:57 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:08:52 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Yes, you need to change your brake fluid

Hi Scott,

In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue
stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber"
ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber.

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,


I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.

None of my cars have dual-diagonal lines so I purge the
brake fluid annually on each of them. A burst rusted brake
line can be a memorable experience- it sure was for me. OTOH
I wouldn't tell anyone else how to maintain their vehicles,
YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Scott Dorsey]

Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.

And... on a Japanese car you can get away with that and not have any issues.
Some of them don't even list the brake fluid on the maintenance schedule.

Unfortunately you _cannot_ get away with that on the BMW. It is NOT forgiving
about maintenance.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Scott Dorsey]

John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

I'm extremely familiar with the BMW, but only you and I seem to know what
we're talking about here.

What I am talking about is mostly that maintenance and repairs are different,
and there are vehicles that require a lot of maintenance and if you don't
do that maintenance you get repairs.

Maintenance you can do at your convenience in a heated or air-conditioned
garage. Repairs are not so clean.

The Japanese cars... you don't do a lot of maintenance, instead you do a
lot of repairs all at once. The BMW, you do a lot of maintenance.

If you haven't replaced your air plenum, you're probably about time for
doing that to do. Do it before it fails.

I appreciate the advice, but offhand I'm not sure what you're calling the
"air plenum", but if you're talking about that idiotically designed DISA
valve which moderates the intake manifold harmonics, I'm completely
familiar with the DISA valve engineering flaws and have long ago replaced
the innards with re-engineered ones from Gary at German Engineering
(replace the plastic pin with titanium).

I mean the big rubber hose going between the throttle body and the airflow
sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car
starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping
adhesive for a while until after a while you can't.

8. AC control (idiotic FSU/FSR blows its mosfets time and time again)
There's an aftermarket retrofit for this also.

There are *tons* of aftermarket FSUs, but I'm not aware of any design
change to any other component than the FSU itself.

The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear
regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat
of course. In Germany it's not a problem, but in Florida it fails pretty
promptly. There are a couple places that have retrofit ones with big
heatsinks. There have been a couple people talking about making PWM retrofits
but nobody has done it yet that I know.

What we have all done is we have modified our oil dipstick tubes, because
the CCV dumps cold oil into the dipstick tube, which hardens with contact
with water vapor into the extremely badly designed teeny tiny
concentric-circle space in the two-tubed dipstick.

If you are changing oil every 3,000 miles you shouldn't need to do any
of this. Just swab it out when you cahnge.

I left off a few things because that was an ad-hoc list, but just like the
fact that *all* the cluster and MID pixels go bad, all the wood trim
cracks.

It's not actually the wood that cracks; it's the super thick coating of
varnish on the outside that cracks. It's a warranty repair and I had all my
wood trim replaced under warranty, but the replacement wood trim cracked
just the same.

Tried Formby's Furniture Refinisher or maybe just xylene on it to liquify
the varnish and redistribute it?

>It's a manufacturing and design flaw that they all have.

This might be the same issue as the fan controller and the exterior rubber:
stuff that works just fine in the German climate but doesn't do so well in
places in the US.

The power steering leaks again are what you get if you don't purge the
system annually like the manual says and don't change the hoses when they
start to fail. By now you should have replaced every rubber part under
the hood at least once. If you haven't replaced the pads in the shock
towers and the differential mount, do them now.

I have done an overhaul of the rubber from buna to viton long ago, and the
worst were the SAP/SAS valves in the back of the intake manifold. They're
impossible to get to under the best of circumstances.

If you keep changing the fluid, the rack seals don't fail. If you don't
change the fluid, the rack seals will fail. Changing to viton isn't a bad
idea at all, but constant maintenance reduces the need to do that.

I learned of all the issues by running into them and then learning how to
re-engineer them. My point is that most of these known problems span
models, so, BMW *knows* that they build crappy components but they don't
fix them. So that's just bad engineering on BMW's part.

I would tend to disagree, with a few exceptions like the cooling system
which really IS shameful.

All BMW cares about is the handling and performance, and, those components
are engineered fantastically well.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff to do every 3,000 miles including checking
the rubber parts. Yes, there's a transmission fluid change and differential
fluid change every 30,000 miles. Yes, you need to change your brake fluid
every two years and your coolant every fall. There is a _lot_ of maintenance
on these cars.

I disagree with *some* of what you just wrote.

Most bimmer owners have learned NOT to change the "lifetime" transmission
fluid for two key reasons. The first is that many people have had failures
just *after* changing the fluid where the hypothesis is that "stuff" got
mixed up and moved about (like crud). The second is that it's actually not
trivial to change the transmission fluid because of the specific
temperature requirements (which most people skip).

Okay, I was making the assumption of the manual transmission. Why would
anyone get a BMW and then put a slushbox in it?

If you DO have a slushbox, regular fluid changes are even MORE important
although not at as short intervals, because if you don't do it regularly
while the transmission is young, you're going to get exactly into that
situation when the transmission is old. (Note also that a fluid change
is NOT the same as a complete flush.... the complete flush is a bad idea
in any case... just drain what comes out and refill it. It won't change
all the fluid in the case but that's okay because you're going to do it
again soon enough anyway).

Agreed that if you're stuck with a high mileage automatic that has been
abused in its youth by a lack of proper fluid changes that the best thing
to do is just keep your fingers crossed and hope it doesn't fail. (Well,
really the best thing to do is trade in the car before it does fail but
that's another story).

This is a case of repairs vs. maintenance again.

BTW, are you the "Magnum" "Scott" of BMW fame?
If so, we actually know each other and we have common friends who have both
beemers and bimmers.

Nope, I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like
BMWs for the reason that if you do put the proper maintenance into them
you can just keep driving and driving them. I just rolled over 360,000
mile on the E28 this week coming home from work and it's still almost new.

Either way, it's a *pleasure* to speak with someone who is not only
intelligent, but who knows what he's talking about (which most of the fools
in this thread don't).

I don't claim to be intelligent, I just claim to be able to keep cars running.
A good argument could be made that if I were intelligent I would have traded
the E28 in twenty years ago and I wouldn't be driving the 2002 at all.
Certainly my wife makes that argument often.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Bill Vanek]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:00 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Bill Vanek actually said:

Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are
trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause
any meaningful tire wear.

However, in the end, a "smidge" of negative camber (about a degree or so)
is probably in the accuracy range we really need, which a smartphone can
do.

The old standard was always about +- 1 degree, when you had no other
specs to go by. Enthusiast cars like the BMW have different needs for
handling purposes.

The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the
tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can
be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation.

BMW does not recommend ever rotating tires,

That's not uncommon.

but they don't care about tire
wear. The camber is only adjustable in the rear and it's pretty high (I
forget but it's at least 2 degrees negative camber for each rear wheel).
That wears out the inner edge like you can't believe.

That doesn't sound right. 2 degrees should not cause early wear, so
you really need to check the ride height. And recheck the camber.

As for wear, it seem everything goes in this direction:
1. caster
2. camber
3. toe

Yes, caster will not cause wear.

In that caster is done first, then camber, and then toe, and in that wear
is least with caster and then more with camber and then even more with toe
(under typical settings).

That's not the reason for the order, but it's not important.

Toe is much
more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do
it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's
exactly right.

I have done my toe when I replaced tierod ends, pitman arms, and idler
arms, and then when I took the cars for alignment, the toe was spot on.

So I think toe is easy, compared to caster and camber.

I hate to say this, but you can get pretty close just eyeballing toe
and camber. Especially with camber, if you can't see any substantial
lean, the camber is probably close enough that it won't cause tire
wear. In a pinch, it works for toe, too.

There
is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied
readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying
to save money is not such a good idea.

The simple test is to set the alignment at home, and then take it to the
shop for double checking.

It's not necessarily a repeatable test, though. The one time you do
that, you might have gotten lucky.

Many shops offer free tests if nothing needs to
be changed; but I would hesitate to take them up on that only because they
can always find something so I suspect that's just a gimmick.

Has anyone here ever gotten the "free test" actually for free if there was
nothing to change? Or do they always find "something"?

They are expected to print out the readings, so it takes some effort
to lie. I'm sure they usually find something, but that's only because
cars do go out of alignment.

At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a
challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there.

Never in my life (and I'm an old man) have I seen a mechanic install a tire
correctly (I use Tire Rack authorized installers), so I suspect it's the
same with alignment.

For example, I had to bring 500 pounds of my own weights to my last
alignment. The alignment guy *knew* how to do it right, he just knew that
most of this customers don't have a clue.

I'm pretty sure that none of the manufacturers expect techs to load a
car before alignment anymore. The specs take into account average
occupant weights.

It's the same with the tire mounting shops. They *know* how to do it right,
but they also know most of their customers don't have a clue so they get
lazy.

I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car
taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.).

And I doubt that it makes the least bit of difference.

If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't
be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are
trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear
purposes, pay someone.

I think the summary is this simple.

A. Check the alignment at home for the things that can be adjusted.
For my Toyota, that's only caster, camber, and toe in the front, and for my
bimmer, that's only camber and toe on the rear and toe on the front.

B. Adjust if necessary (using a smart phone or inclinometer for camber, and
a tape measure for toe). I'm not sure how to do caster in the toyota since
I only just found out that the caster is adjustable on the toyota.

C. Take it to one of those "free if it's ok" shops, and see what they get
for measurements.

If I'm perfect, it's free (I assume); if it needs adjusting, then I learn
what can and can't be done.

You don't really learn that, except for each time you try it. You can
get very different results on future attempts.

 

[Bill Vanek]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:01 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
<HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Bill Vanek actually said:
0 degrees of toe for a wheel
is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car
(that is a simplification, but it's usable here).

I don't understand why that is a *simplification* because it seems to be
true by definition that if the wheel/tire angle to the centerline of the
car is zero, then there is zero static toe.

Toe is actually the angle to the thrust angle, but if the thrust angle
is not aligned with the center line, there is something wrong with the
geometry of the car. It's easier for this discussion to just simplify
it.

 

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 19:20:27 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

On 12/10/2016 6:57 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:08:52 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Yes, you need to change your brake fluid

Hi Scott,

In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue
stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber"
ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber.

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,


I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.


None of my cars have dual-diagonal lines so I purge the
brake fluid annually on each of them. A burst rusted brake
line can be a memorable experience- it sure was for me. OTOH
I wouldn't tell anyone else how to maintain their vehicles,
YMMV.

I've had 3 brake line failures. All rear wheel and all on cars that
had +20 years driving in salt. Had one a few months ago.
They've all been on my "emergency" cars.
I was very close to home every time, and I always have a working
e-brake.
In every instance the lines were heavily corroded salt corroded.
The only maintenance I could have done to prevent it was to replace
the lines, which I should have done.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/11/2016 4:18 AM, Vic Smith wrote:

However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is
hygroscopic,


I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership.
So it's not "normal" to me.



I've had 3 brake line failures. All rear wheel and all on cars that
had +20 years driving in salt. Had one a few months ago.
They've all been on my "emergency" cars.
I was very close to home every time, and I always have a working
e-brake.
In every instance the lines were heavily corroded salt corroded.
The only maintenance I could have done to prevent it was to replace
the lines, which I should have done.

Just anecdotal evidence, but brake line replacement seems to be much
more common in the past 15 or so years. I had the lines of my 5 year
old Buick corrode. I know others that had to replace them on 5 to 8
year old cars.

Either new snow removal materials are being used or the lines are
thinner, or both. This suppoerts it
http://www.wfsb.com/story/23874231/mechanics-blame-winter-road-treatment-for-damage-to-cars

Connecticut auto mechanics told the I-Team they are concerned over a
recent rash of rust and they blamed the need for so many rust-related
repairs on the way cities and towns in the state treat the roads during
winter storms.

The I-Team heard it at the Vernon Collision Center where they said,
"everything just seems to rust. Five or six years ago, we didn't do
nearly as many brake lines as we're doing now."

It was the same story at the Canton Gulf, where the I-Team heard, "I've
been here 35 years and in the last three or four years we've done more
brake lines than I have in the first 30 years."

 

[amdx]

On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:

amdx actually said:

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers, so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11_toe_is_a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in-digital-lasertrac-reg-level/p-00948292000P?sid=BVReview

That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.

I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.

The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.

I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
two angles.
See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
figure. > http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf

All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
wheel edge.
Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
modify yours the way I wanted.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3pmgzb/TOE%20IN.jpg?dl=0

Mikek

 

[tlvp]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:00 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

If they specify toe at any other point than a known point off from the
center of the wheel, then they have to specify how far they are from that
known point for any inches-to-degrees conversion to apply.

Isn't that right?

Yes. That's why they specify toe directly as an angle. HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

 

[Colonel Edmund J. Burke]

Nobuddy but Pleasance is allowed to touch my camber.

 

[tlvp]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:34:02 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

how can total toe be specified in degrees when it's measured
in inches?

Silly, it's specified in degrees because it's measured in degrees. HTH.
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

 

John Harmon posted for all of us...

Tekkie? actually said:

The BMW sounds like a great value... Have you considered having it bronzed?

Tekkie,

Why do you constantly pollute this thread with your worthless drivel?
You don't know the answer to *any* question asked.
Not one.

Yet, you pollute the thread nonetheless.

I know the answers as I have done alignments in the past.

You have repeatedly been given excellent answers without learning.

I think you are a troll and are polluting this thread. Why don't you go over
to a BMW group? They are probably not as patient as we are.

I will post what you consider is drivel since you are a troll. I am glad you
are the arbiter of this news group, keep up the lousy job.

I suggest that all this trolls "questions" have been answered many times and
any more replies be treated as such, but that's just me.
--
Tekkie

 

John Harmon posted for all of us...

Scott Dorsey actually said:

Many of these are known problems. Things like the cooling system you need
to plan to replace, and not just the expansion tank but also the thermostat
body. You may want to consider one of the aftermarket water pumps that do
not fail also, when it comes time to do your next water pump replacement.

Hi Scott,

I'm extremely familiar with the BMW, but only you and I seem to know what
we're talking about here.

Doesn't seem like it from your postings.

Unlike Tekkie, nospam, & Jeorg Lorens (who can only troll), I'm intimately
familiar that the cooling system overhaul is a standard maintenance item on
the E39, E38, and E46 (all of which use essentially the same Meyle and
Nissan components) and I am also intimately familiar with the metal-vaned
(petersburgh) water pumps.

You sir, are the troll, asking the same questions repeatidly without
learning.

The gasket-less MAP thermostat isn't all that bad, but since the water pump
has to be removed anyway, we replace them as a matter of course during the
overhauls (I've done about four overhauls of my entire cooling system
myself).

Overhauls?

We all have the special counterholding tools for the fan clutch removal and
we often replace the mechanical or hydraulic tensioners (it's arbitrary
which any one bimmer has) and serpentine belt at the same time since all
that stuff has to come off anyway.

We have it down to a science. In fact, most of us have replaced the
expansion tank cap (I think the ORM is 1.2 bar but I'd have to look that
up) with a lower pressure cap, which doesn't prevent anything from
happening *other* than when it blows, it blows out the cap at a lower
pressure so the expansion tank seams don't split.

We also all know to keep the coolant level LOW (at or below the max at all
times) since too many people overfill the expansion tank. Admittedly, when
it's full, it *looks* empty but that is the way it was designed.

German 'engineering'?

If you haven't replaced your air plenum, you're probably about time for
doing that to do. Do it before it fails.

I appreciate the advice, but offhand I'm not sure what you're calling the
"air plenum", but if you're talking about that idiotically designed DISA
valve which moderates the intake manifold harmonics, I'm completely
familiar with the DISA valve engineering flaws and have long ago replaced
the innards with re-engineered ones from Gary at German Engineering
(replace the plastic pin with titanium).

No you don't you know it all.

These are _maintenance_ items that you know are going to fail, not
_repair_ items that you fix when they break. You know it's going to happen,
deal with it before it fails.

Again, you and I are probably the only people on this thread who understand
what we're talking about so I'm extremely familiar which what breaks on the
typical E39, E38, and E46 (which are all essentially the same depending on
the years designed).


That's good then take it to email, I hope Scott has time to deal with you.

8. AC control (idiotic FSU/FSR blows its mosfets time and time again)
There's an aftermarket retrofit for this also.

There are *tons* of aftermarket FSUs, but I'm not aware of any design
change to any other component than the FSU itself.

9. CCV (aka PCV) (idiotic design creates mayonaise in cold weather locales)

There'a sheet on that one. you're supposed to clean it when you change your
oil. And yes, you're supposed to change your oil often. Follow the extreme
service schedule in the book or get the "old school maintenance" schedule
from the BMWCCA.

Scott it sounds like you know vs the troll.

This one I'm also intimately familiar with, simply because, if you know the
bimmer, you know one of the most difficult standard jobs is to overhaul the
CCV because it's in the middle of the engine so to speak.

So now you are using the tailpipe for coitus?

--
Tekkie

 

[Scott Dorsey]

John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com> wrote:

Scott Dorsey actually said:

I mean the big rubber hose going between the throttle body and the airflow
sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car
starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping
adhesive for a while until after a while you can't.

Oh, yeah. I know it all too well.

My first smoke test for a lean condition showed a crack on the *underside*
of that large ribbed tube. A few years later, my second smoke test showed
that the tubes sticking out had leaks.

It would have been cheaper to just replace the damn things, instead of
doing all those expensive smoke tests, which was your point, I agree!

First of all, if you'd had a competent BMW mechanic, he would have replaced
it before it failed.

Secondly, when it DID fail, he would have looked at that and at the hose
underneath it as the first things that cause leaks into the throttle body.

Thirdly, if he didn't know any of these things, it should have taken him
less than five minutes to find the leak with a can of starting fluid. There
is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for someone to bring out the smoke machine for that
sort of leak unless they are trying really hard to find ways to bill their
customers for something.

This is an EXACT example of what I am talking about when I say that doing
maintenance is cheaper than doing repairs.

The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear
regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat
of course.

Maybe you can answer a question which has irked me for years.
As you know, the AC/Heating system is "fully automatic" meaning it's not
intended for manual control, so, the blower starts at whatever settting it
wants to start at when you start the car, no matter what setting you left
it at when you last shut down the car.

I *always* adjust that, either to *off* or to the midway position.

But what I always wondered was, if the blower is on at all, whether the
full on, or midway position caused less stress on the FSU?

If you have it on full, the transistor is completely turned on and so there
is less heat being generated in that configuration. However, if you have to
worry about what position of the heater puts less stress on it, something
is wrong. Put a retrofit one in there and it won't fail.

The ABS "trifecta" failing on the E38, E39, and E46 is also shameful.
So is the trunk wiring loom fraying on almost every vehicle.
And the headlight adjusters crumbling on some of the models like mine.

ABS I don't know about... but everybody knows about the loom so everybody
wraps it. If yours wasn't wrapped, it will fail.

Likewise the headlight assemblies can be replaced with European spec ones
in some cases, which don't fail. It's only the wacky DOT ones for the
American market that are an issue.

I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like BMWs

Thanks for your insight.
Very interesting!

I just rolled over 360,000 miles on the new car this afternoon. Should have
it at 400,000 before 2018 starts.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[amdx]

On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:

On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
amdx actually said:

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about
what
they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
sugestions.

It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers,
so,
while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or
minus
six minutes.

However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.

However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
So is the centerline of the car.

So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
c. That's the triangle!
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11_toe_is_a_triangle.gif

NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.

Hey, just noticed your link,
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
has the sears level shown here,
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in-digital-lasertrac-reg-level/p-00948292000P?sid=BVReview


That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.

The Sears level does have a laser in it.
That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
simple trig problem.

I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the
straight
line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where
they
intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif

The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.

The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.

The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif

Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is
how on
earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!

I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.

I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
two angles.
See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
figure. > http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf

All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
wheel edge.
Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
modify yours the way I wanted.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3pmgzb/TOE%20IN.jpg?dl=0

Mikek

Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
Mikek