A tale of a cheapo ink cartridge ...

[Jabba]

Arfa Daily scribbled...

As you were using cheapo carts, I'm surprised you didn't look at them
first.


Well, hindsight is, as we all know, a wonderful thing. But be honest here,
would you really have immediately thought of a single faulty cartridge out
of an array of 6, to cause the printer to fail to recognise that *any*
cartridges were in place ? Also given the fact that it is never turned off,
was used the day before, and the offending cartridge had been in place for
some weeks ? Jeff L thought that it was an unusual problem that he wouldn't
have thought of, and he repairs printers all the time ...

I've learned to look at the simple stuff first - electrical fault - is
it plugged in, batteries flat, etc, etc.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 14/07/2014 11:22 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:

For a long time, my primary printer has been an HP Photosmart series
all-in-one. It's a 6 ink job, which makes it expensive to replace inks
if you use the genuine HP article. So, for several years, I have been
using cheapo eBay inks. They come from China originally, and the most
recent ones I have been using, have translucent cases so you can even
see how much ink is actually in them. They are high capacity cartridges,
and the chip on them says so correctly. I have never had a problem with
the printer failing to recognise them as a high capacity cartridge of
the correct colour, and the usage indicator seems to remain accurate.

So, a couple of weeks ago, I come down in the morning, and it's sitting
there saying "copy abandoned", and the exclamation mark LED is flashing.
Sure enough, one of the missus's documents is in the top that she's
obviously been trying to copy before going to work. So I try the cancel
button - nothing. Nor the on / off button. No buttons work, so I pop the
power, just expecting to get the usual lashing for not turning it off
properly. But no. As soon as it gets going, it tells me that "The
following ink cartridges appear to be missing... " That would be all
six of them, then ...

Nothing would recover it from this. I had a trawl around on the net, and
there was a number of mentions of a couple of caps that bulge on the
main board, so I dived in to check, and yes ! there was one of them. I
checked its ESR for sport, and it was out the window. I stuck a new one
in, expecting all to be well, but it was just the same :-(

A friend lent me a printer in the meantime, while I had a think about
this one. Another friend is a pro photographer, and he has one of these
HPs also, and I knew that he only used genuine inks, so I rang him and
asked if he happened to have any empties laying about. He did, as he
takes them back to Staples, who give you half off in exchange. He came
over today with a bag of them, so I started by taking all of my
cartridges out. As expected, it told me that all of the cartridges were
missing, so I put in an empty colour one and restarted it. This time, it
told me that only five were missing, and the one that I had just put in
was nearly empty and should be replaced soon.

One by one, I added 'empty' genuine cartridges, and each time, it read
the cartridge ok. I eventually got to a full house, and all was well. So
one by one, I put my cheapo cartridges back in, and all remained ok,
until the very last one, dark magenta, when back came the message that
all six cartridges were missing. I went and got another from my stock
and put it in, and all was still ok.

So I'm guessing that the comms to these cartridges are just a simple 2
wire bus, and each colour just has its own address to allow the
processor to read them individually. I'm also guessing that the faulty
dark magenta cartridge, must have a short on one of the bus lines so
that when the processor issues the addresses in sequence to read each
cartridge at boot up, none of them are able to reply so the machine
assumes that they are not present.

How easy it would have been for the printer to have just got chucked in
the bin, for what was ultimately a simple problem ...

Arfa

**I hat ink jet printers. Although I've been using a laser printer since
1988, there have been times when I purchased an ink jet (usually because
I wanted to print photos or something similar). I've always been sorry.
Anyway, a few years back, I decided to change my thermal fax machine for
an HP inkjet. I quickly tired of paying nonsensically high prices for
black cartridges, I purchased one of those ink jet refiller kits. I
figured I'd refill the cartridge in the lounge room one evening (100%
wool, Berber carpet). At the last moment, I decided that SWMBO might
kill me if I spilt the ink, so I did the job in the workshop. Part of
the job called for pressurising the cartridge after re-filling. I
dtifully pumped air into the cartridge. No print. I pumped a little more
air in. No pump. I pumped a little more air in and BANG. Ink went
everywhere. It's been ten years and I am still finding ink in places I
never expected.

I hate ink jet printers.



--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote

William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Is $150 too much for your budget?

Yep, lousy value. I got the last Canon inkjet for $5 at a garage sale, works
fine.

http://www.brothermall.com/Printers/Model/HL3070CW/Refurbished#.U8QQLUC9Y0o
Not the best color laser printer on the planet, but quite cheap.
Figure on about $70 for a set of 4 replacement clone carts on eBay, or
about $200 for brand new retail. The color carts are good for about 1400
pages:
$70 / 1400 = $0.05/page
(I refill my own color carts, which costs me about $32 to refill 4 carts).

A similar ink spraying printer might cost $30 for a set of carts,

Nothing like that for non genuine carts that work fine.

and optimistically print 500 pages (usually less).
$30 / 500 = $0.06/page

In other words, the cost of ink/toner is slightly cheaper for the
color laser printer, if you use refilled and clone carts and toner.

But you have to use the same carts in the inkjet to compare.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 14/07/14 21:17, Jabba wrote:

Arfa Daily scribbled...




As you were using cheapo carts, I'm surprised you didn't look at them
first.


Well, hindsight is, as we all know, a wonderful thing. But be honest here,
would you really have immediately thought of a single faulty cartridge out
of an array of 6, to cause the printer to fail to recognise that *any*
cartridges were in place ? Also given the fact that it is never turned off,
was used the day before, and the offending cartridge had been in place for
some weeks ? Jeff L thought that it was an unusual problem that he wouldn't
have thought of, and he repairs printers all the time ...


I've learned to look at the simple stuff first - electrical fault - is
it plugged in, batteries flat, etc, etc.

Note to self/ When Linux desktop freezes, its not a software problem.
It's the notebook wedged on top of the escape key.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll

 

[Jeff Layman]

On 14/07/2014 02:22, Arfa Daily wrote:

How easy it would have been for the printer to have just got chucked in the
bin, for what was ultimately a simple problem ...

It might not have been so simple if you'd updated the drivers recently.

I have an oldish Samsung laser printer (ML-1640). It came with a
cut-down cartridge When it reached the "average" count of 700 pages, it
reported the cartridge had to be replaced. But I had some unused old
cartridges from a Brother laser printer which still had toner in them.
So I carefully transferred toner from the Brother cartridge to the
Samsung cartridge, and shorted a couple of pins on the chip which
counted the 700 pages to reset it. The laser printer continued to work
without problem after the reset, but it wouldn't have if I'd bothered to
update the printer driver to the next version, as that software stopped
the shorted-chip method from working.

Another good example of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

--

Jeff

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 10:01:21 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20129/China_Refillable_ink_cartridge_HP02_compatible_for_Photosmart_C5140_C5150_C5180_C5185_C6150_C6180_C715020129121800026.jpg
I have such a printer in the office that I can check the connector
wiring with an ohms guesser (on Tues).

Yep, that's the style of cartridge, and I think the same as you, two wire
bus plus piezo drive. And yes. Shorted bus was a good one, and certainly
something I wouldn't have suspected right off. Hence why I bothered to tell
all here !
Arfa

Would you believe a 4 wire bus? I removed the 02 carts from an HP
C7250 printer, and ran my ohms-guesser between corresponding pins
between cartridge contacts. 4 contacts per cart and all 4 wires are
on a bus between all 6 carts.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Rod Speed]

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:c2ivafFb485U1@mid.individual.net...

On 14/07/2014 11:22 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:
For a long time, my primary printer has been an HP Photosmart series
all-in-one. It's a 6 ink job, which makes it expensive to replace inks
if you use the genuine HP article. So, for several years, I have been
using cheapo eBay inks. They come from China originally, and the most
recent ones I have been using, have translucent cases so you can even
see how much ink is actually in them. They are high capacity cartridges,
and the chip on them says so correctly. I have never had a problem with
the printer failing to recognise them as a high capacity cartridge of
the correct colour, and the usage indicator seems to remain accurate.

So, a couple of weeks ago, I come down in the morning, and it's sitting
there saying "copy abandoned", and the exclamation mark LED is flashing.
Sure enough, one of the missus's documents is in the top that she's
obviously been trying to copy before going to work. So I try the cancel
button - nothing. Nor the on / off button. No buttons work, so I pop the
power, just expecting to get the usual lashing for not turning it off
properly. But no. As soon as it gets going, it tells me that "The
following ink cartridges appear to be missing... " That would be all
six of them, then ...

Nothing would recover it from this. I had a trawl around on the net, and
there was a number of mentions of a couple of caps that bulge on the
main board, so I dived in to check, and yes ! there was one of them. I
checked its ESR for sport, and it was out the window. I stuck a new one
in, expecting all to be well, but it was just the same :-(

A friend lent me a printer in the meantime, while I had a think about
this one. Another friend is a pro photographer, and he has one of these
HPs also, and I knew that he only used genuine inks, so I rang him and
asked if he happened to have any empties laying about. He did, as he
takes them back to Staples, who give you half off in exchange. He came
over today with a bag of them, so I started by taking all of my
cartridges out. As expected, it told me that all of the cartridges were
missing, so I put in an empty colour one and restarted it. This time, it
told me that only five were missing, and the one that I had just put in
was nearly empty and should be replaced soon.

One by one, I added 'empty' genuine cartridges, and each time, it read
the cartridge ok. I eventually got to a full house, and all was well. So
one by one, I put my cheapo cartridges back in, and all remained ok,
until the very last one, dark magenta, when back came the message that
all six cartridges were missing. I went and got another from my stock
and put it in, and all was still ok.

So I'm guessing that the comms to these cartridges are just a simple 2
wire bus, and each colour just has its own address to allow the
processor to read them individually. I'm also guessing that the faulty
dark magenta cartridge, must have a short on one of the bus lines so
that when the processor issues the addresses in sequence to read each
cartridge at boot up, none of them are able to reply so the machine
assumes that they are not present.

How easy it would have been for the printer to have just got chucked in
the bin, for what was ultimately a simple problem ...

Arfa

**I hat ink jet printers. Although I've been using a laser printer since
1988, there have been times when I purchased an ink jet (usually because I
wanted to print photos or something similar). I've always been sorry.
Anyway, a few years back, I decided to change my thermal fax machine for
an HP inkjet. I quickly tired of paying nonsensically high prices for
black cartridges, I purchased one of those ink jet refiller kits. I
figured I'd refill the cartridge in the lounge room one evening (100%
wool, Berber carpet). At the last moment, I decided that SWMBO might kill
me if I spilt the ink, so I did the job in the workshop. Part of the job
called for pressurising the cartridge after re-filling. I dtifully pumped
air into the cartridge. No print. I pumped a little more air in. No pump.
I pumped a little more air in and BANG. Ink went everywhere. It's been ten
years and I am still finding ink in places I never expected.

I hate ink jet printers.

I got the last of the Canon inkjets that doesn't use chipped carts,
use non genuine carts from ebay and it worked fine for years and
years.

 

[Randy Day]

In article <6bk8s9pn4ljh7p0melcjfjuslv2mutrvs0@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

[snip]

Would you believe a 4 wire bus? I removed the 02 carts from an HP
C7250 printer, and ran my ohms-guesser between corresponding pins
between cartridge contacts. 4 contacts per cart and all 4 wires are
on a bus between all 6 carts.

Sounds like some form of I2C; you'd have +v(piezo),
gnd, Clock and Data going to all 6.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2is0hFae1dU1@mid.individual.net...

Fredxxx <fredxx@nospam.com> wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.
If quantity requires then get a colour laser with an eye on the cost of
replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of the HPs that
I've owned over the years have been remarkably reliable given the level of
use and abuse that they get. The only ones that have given me grief, are a
couple of Epsons, which were the worst pieces of shit that I have ever
owned. The problem that I detailed with my current HP, isn't actually a
problem with the printer itself either.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:bb58s91aijh3c4l794fif7mr900ndtceb2@4ax.com...

On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 10:01:21 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Yep, that's the style of cartridge, and I think the same as you, two wire
bus plus piezo drive. And yes. Shorted bus was a good one, and certainly
something I wouldn't have suspected right off. Hence why I bothered to
tell
all here !

Thanks. I learned something new.

Do you still have the bad magenta 02 cartridge? If so, try an
ohmmeter test on the contacts. I'm curious if the cart can be tested.

--
Jeff Liebermann

I do, and I'll see what can be read across the contacts. Since we decided
what the contacts might be, I've had another little think about that, and
have now decided that it's not piezo drive on two of them, because these are
HP cartridges without the heads built in. Straight vanilla ink only. So how
about supply, ground, and two-wire bus ?

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:6bk8s9pn4ljh7p0melcjfjuslv2mutrvs0@4ax.com...

On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 10:01:21 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20129/China_Refillable_ink_cartridge_HP02_compatible_for_Photosmart_C5140_C5150_C5180_C5185_C6150_C6180_C715020129121800026.jpg
I have such a printer in the office that I can check the connector
wiring with an ohms guesser (on Tues).

Yep, that's the style of cartridge, and I think the same as you, two wire
bus plus piezo drive. And yes. Shorted bus was a good one, and certainly
something I wouldn't have suspected right off. Hence why I bothered to
tell
all here !
Arfa

Would you believe a 4 wire bus? I removed the 02 carts from an HP
C7250 printer, and ran my ohms-guesser between corresponding pins
between cartridge contacts. 4 contacts per cart and all 4 wires are
on a bus between all 6 carts.


--
Jeff Liebermann

I'm still thinking two-wire bus - see my reply to your post above

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Randy Day" <randy.day@sasktel.netx> wrote in message
news:MPG.2e2e28558db746679896a0@aioe.org...

In article <6bk8s9pn4ljh7p0melcjfjuslv2mutrvs0@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

[snip]

Would you believe a 4 wire bus? I removed the 02 carts from an HP
C7250 printer, and ran my ohms-guesser between corresponding pins
between cartridge contacts. 4 contacts per cart and all 4 wires are
on a bus between all 6 carts.


Sounds like some form of I2C; you'd have +v(piezo),
gnd, Clock and Data going to all 6.

No piezo on these cartridges, so Vcc, Gnd and I2C ??

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

**I hat ink jet printers. Although I've been using a laser printer since
1988, there have been times when I purchased an ink jet (usually because I
wanted to print photos or something similar). I've always been sorry.
Anyway, a few years back, I decided to change my thermal fax machine for
an HP inkjet. I quickly tired of paying nonsensically high prices for
black cartridges, I purchased one of those ink jet refiller kits. I
figured I'd refill the cartridge in the lounge room one evening (100%
wool, Berber carpet). At the last moment, I decided that SWMBO might kill
me if I spilt the ink, so I did the job in the workshop. Part of the job
called for pressurising the cartridge after re-filling. I dtifully pumped
air into the cartridge. No print. I pumped a little more air in. No pump.
I pumped a little more air in and BANG. Ink went everywhere. It's been ten
years and I am still finding ink in places I never expected.

I hate ink jet printers.



--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au

That's a sad story Trevor. To be honest, I can buy Chinese cartridges for
this HP so cheap that it's not worth arsing about doing re-fills.

While you're on, don't suppose you've got a schematic for a Mackie SRM1801
sub have you ? Have combed the net, but nothing lodged with any of the usual
suspects. It has a permanent overload LED, although it seems to be an
indicational problem as otherwise, it works just fine.

Arfa

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 02:07:44 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I'm still thinking two-wire bus - see my reply to your post above
Arfa

You're probably right. There are no piezo driver wires, as I
originally thought because the head is not part of the ink cart.
(Sorry, I guessed wrong in a previous message). So, that leaves
power, ground, and two wires for data. I don't have a protocol
analyzer (that works) but can look at the bus with a scope. The ink
carts are not moving, so that should be easy. Probably I2C.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C2%B2C>

<http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/bus-pirate>
<https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9544>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Rod Speed]

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Fredxxx <fredxx@nospam.com> wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.

If quantity requires then get a colour laser with
an eye on the cost of replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of
the HPs that I've owned over the years have been remarkably
reliable given the level of use and abuse that they get.

I've stuck with Canons myself and have only ever had
the one failure just recently, of the main logic card.

Mate of mine has gone thru 3 Canons now,
all with some sort of electronics failure.

I do know of a few that have ended up with a clogged
print head with other brands and found it unviable to
replace it and have just bought a new one.

The only ones that have given me grief, are
a couple of Epsons, which were the worst
pieces of shit that I have ever owned.

Yeah, I have heard that about them too.
No one I know has ever had one tho.

The problem that I detailed with my current HP,
isn't actually a problem with the printer itself either.

True. I've been meaning to google your fault
but haven't got around to doing that yet.

 

[Randy Day]

In article <Ba%wv.337455$f_5.303052@fx08.am4>, arfa.daily@ntlworld.com
says...

[snip]

Sounds like some form of I2C; you'd have +v(piezo),
gnd, Clock and Data going to all 6.


No piezo on these cartridges, so Vcc, Gnd and I2C ??

Yes.

We can't rule out a proprietary setup, but I2C
is a strong possibility; it's built into a lot
of off-the-shelf microcontrollers, and only
needs 2 external resistors to operate.

We can't assume that the Vcc going to the
cartridges is used as Vcc for the I2C lines;
you'd have to measure the voltages on each
line.

I leave the logistics (of attaching a meter
and/or 'scope probe to a moving print head)
ENTIRELY to you!

 

[Dennis@home]

On 15/07/2014 03:42, Randy Day wrote:

8<

I leave the logistics (of attaching a meter
and/or 'scope probe to a moving print head)
ENTIRELY to you!

One end of the cable doesn't move.

 

[tim.....]

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2jmsbFfgiuU1@mid.individual.net...

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Fredxxx <fredxx@nospam.com> wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.

If quantity requires then get a colour laser with an eye on the cost of
replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of the HPs that
I've owned over the years have been remarkably reliable given the level
of use and abuse that they get.

I've stuck with Canons myself and have only ever had the one failure just
recently, of the main logic card.
Mate of mine has gone thru 3 Canons now, all with some sort of electronics
failure.

I've had 2 printers in my lifetime

what do you guys do to get through so many?

tim

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 15/07/14 09:29, tim..... wrote:

I've had 2 printers in my lifetime

what do you guys do to get through so many?

Printer 1. Struck by lightning* and repaired under 'warranty' since
repairing it cost more than a new printer.

Printer 1a; died when cat urinated into it.

Printer 2 bought off ebay to directly replace it. Now retired..

Printer 3 bought to draw house plans on - A1 inkjet. Now on permanent
loan to someone who needs it.

Printer 4 Color laserjet bought to do A4 colour proofing. Replaced
Printer 2.

*overhead phone line: direct strike. Phone connected to modem connected
to serial parallel card connected to printer.

Computer survived, card, modem and printer did not. Ancient Ex rental TV
BER as well but managed to get v expensive parallel tracking record deck
repaired. Everything else survived apart from sockets blown out of walls
and some mains wire arcing to ground.


House rewired at insistence of insurance company.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll

 

[Rod Speed]

tim..... <tims_new_home@yahoo.co.uk> wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Fredxxx <fredxx@nospam.com> wrote
William Sommerwerck wrote
Jabba wrote

Vote with your wallet, don't buy inkjets.

If you want color, there's no inexpensive alternative. Is there?

Boots and other online printing services. Even cheaper.

Not when you include the cost of driving to pick it up.

If quantity requires then get a colour laser with
an eye on the cost of replacing toner cartridges.

Ink-jets are remarkably unreliable.

Mine arent.

I have to say that hasn't been my experience, either. All of
the HPs that I've owned over the years have been remarkably
reliable given the level of use and abuse that they get.

I've stuck with Canons myself and have only ever had
the one failure just recently, of the main logic card.

Mate of mine has gone thru 3 Canons now,
all with some sort of electronics failure.

I've had 2 printers in my lifetime

Yebbut, your lifetime is a hell of a lot shorter than some of ours.

> what do you guys do to get through so many?

With most of them the technology moved on.

The first of them that I personally owned, an LA180 was as big
as a washing machine and I could barely put one in the back
of a Golf alone, and I was completely stupid to have done that.

That was replaced by a much smaller dot matrix printer
that I only stopped using when I got the first inkjet printer
that produced a much better result and cost peanuts.

I stopped using that when PCs no longer supported the interface.

I replaced that with a decent USB inkjet and had that
work fine for years. Its just had an electronics card failure
and since I had picked up a spare at a garage sale for just
$5 it wasn't worth even changing a failed cap. It's the only
one that has actually died rather than become obsolete.