A Sony' CRTs color is screwed up.

[Phil Allison]

"Arfa Daily"

( snip heaps of very good stuff)

As to questioning the credentials of the people that have replied to this,
being new, you should probably be aware that the William has a lifetime's
experience at the sharp end of service, sales and technical writing, Bob
has lectured the stuff, I spent many thousands of hours of my life working
on this stuff at nuts and bolts level, and Phil, for all his occasional
rants and outbursts, is a highly qualified service engineer whose
technical understanding and ability is without question.

** Tears ..............



..... Phil

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:b16312F3igtU1@mid.individual.net...

"Arfa Daily"

( snip heaps of very good stuff)


As to questioning the credentials of the people that have replied to
this, being new, you should probably be aware that the William has a
lifetime's experience at the sharp end of service, sales and technical
writing, Bob has lectured the stuff, I spent many thousands of hours of
my life working on this stuff at nuts and bolts level, and Phil, for all
his occasional rants and outbursts, is a highly qualified service
engineer whose technical understanding and ability is without question.


** Tears ..............



.... Phil

Best wishes from the group on your up-coming birthday ...

Arfa

 

[Wild_Bill]

Magnets aren't good as John pointed out. It's best to keep magnets away from
CRTs, including older external speakers which don't have magnetic shielding.

You could use an electric soldering gun (Weller or similar design) or
possibly a bulk tape eraser.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"micky" <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:6c2qq8psn8al5d2fl4cgs3njbkac2o2qpn@4ax.com...

Sounds good. Because this involves turning the tv around (which
involves cleaning off the kitchen table) I'm saving this one for
third, even though it sounds like something I can do.

Thank you all. I've read all the posts as of last night, and I also
like the idea of degaussing and of using a magnet to see what happens.

Right now, I'm trying to remember where I keep all my magnets. I have
all sizes but the only ones whose whereabouts I know are on the
refrigerator.

The only degaussing coil I have came from a tv I destroyed. I never
found a power supply for it, and right now I also can't remember where
it is. There are only two rooms in the basement. It has to be in
one of them. But anyhow, I went on Freecycle to try to borrow a
degausser. It worked when I needed a metal detector, although it
seems borrowing is against the rules, and some moderators won't
approve a request to borrow. So I say it's a request to be given and
then I'll reccycle it again in a week, including to the original
owner. .

The other possibility is the shadow mask (aperature grill in a Sony) cut
loose.

There may well have been a current surge while I was gone (though
nothing else looks bad, so far, and all the clocks were still right
(Yeah, that's not a surge, but still.)

But I don't think there was an earthquake**, so I'm figuring the
aperture grill is still in the right place. When I get to the point
of moving the tv, I'll turn the screen a little and see if that has a
big effect. **We've only had one in 30 years here (Baltimore) and it
was not much. However sitting in the basement at the work bench I
could feel it, so I do get to cross earthquake off my bucket list.

There is no fix for that, though I can do wonders with magnets around
the bell of the CRT. The problem with that is that it might not be
stable.

Without a vow, I'll get back with results when I have them.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

** Tears ..............

Crocodile tears.

Your seeming "gratitude" would be believable if you would commit yourself to
psychiatric treatment -- or at least unburdening yourself to a close friend
who cares about you (assuming such exists).

 

[William Sommerwerck]

You could use an electric soldering gun (Weller or
similar design) or possibly a bulk tape eraser.

A bulk eraser will work, but make sure you don't accidentally shut it off near
the set. I caused serious harm to a Trinitron when this occurred.

 

"Sounds good. Because this involves turning the tv around (which
involves cleaning off the kitchen table) I'm saving this one for

third, even though it sounds like something I can do"

Haha, sounds like some of my houses.

"The only degaussing coil I have came from a tv I destroyed. I never
found a power supply for it, and right now I also can't remember where

it is."

You cannot just hook up an internal coil to AC, it will burn up before you can pull it away. Do you have a variac ? You can use that. Just put the coil in front of the screen, turn it up until you see the raster bend enough that there are black spots. you'll see what I mean. Then bring it down gradually, like over two seconds.

If you manually degauss it with it on, Don't leave it cranked long, it only takes a second. It upsets some vertical circuits. Also, with a coil out of a set you will not really want to go to 120 volts, those things pull a hell of alot of amperage. If you go to say 100 volts AC, as soon as you switch it on start bringing it down quickly. Either way should work.

Then just hope the connection doesn't intemittently make and screw it up again.

But I don't think there was an earthquake**, so I'm figuring the
aperture grill is still in the right place."

An earthquake strong enough to dislodge it would have take the building off the foundation. It gets knocked out when the set is dropped usually, and it has to drop pretty hard to create enough G force. However sometimes it just happens on its own. They try to match the thermal expansion coefficients as well as possible, but you are talking steel and glass here and in fact in a Sony I think a couple parts are cast iron for whatever reason.

 

"If you have a variac, wire a plug to the coil and plug it in. Set the variac for 50 to 60 VAC, plug your coil in and wave it around the front of the TV in a circular motion getting within 6" or so, then, continuing the motion, slowly back away from the TV until you get to a few feet away.
"

I didn't realize you had already covered that because of the noise in here.

I differ slightly, I think it would be easier to just gradually lower the variac without having to move the coil.

With your way the coil might still burn up, with my way the process might get screwed up if the contacts in the variac are not in good enough shape.

One time I had a Sony that looked like the colors were interpolated. If you are old enough you may have seen sets like Zeniths in which the grids (tube) or cathodes (solid state) were connected to those stake connectors which were identical. If you ever saw what happened when thos got mixed up, for whatever reason, this is what this set looked like exactly.

A lightning strike had magnetized the CRT so evenly and strongly that the internal degauseer didn't cut it. The external degauseer did nothing. I had to connect the internal coil to a variac and turn it all the way up to what 135 volts, and then brought it down. That fixed it. Everyone had been scratching their heads on that one.

It was really strange because the purity was actually good, just for the wrong colors. First and last time I ever saw anything like that.

 

"When adjusting the " purity magnets " on a conventional CRT, one sets the
test pattern to red and tries to get a even red colour all over the tube

face. "

A note about that. On a delta gun CRT it would be better to adjust the blue and on an inline gun it would be better to adjust the green but red was chosen because the eye can discern it better.

Actually on inline CRTs I learned how to adjust purity on a white field and convergence on snow (no signal). It works. However now it is just more useless knowledge. Now I am getting into the waveforms on the Ysus and Zsus. Tcon, logic board, LVDS. Where's that confounded yoke ?

 

[Smarty]

On 6/4/2013 7:20 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:

That is 100% correct, and an adept description of how such errors are
barely noticeable on a black and white picture. Understand also that
we are talking pure CRT physics here. Don't get confused by colour
signal weightings that are part of the encoding and transmission
process. Whilst there are some differences in the efficiencies of the
phosphors, and the eye is non linear in its response to the visible
spectrum, those differences are not huge, and for white through shades
of grey, the three beam currents will not be wildly different for a
CRT that's in good emmissive order. Hence the reason that mass beam
landing errors are not anything like as important to the reproduction
of an accurate grey, as you might imagine. The fact that such errors
are much easier to see on a colour picture may well be a perceptual
one, as the human eye / brain combination, is extremely good at
handling colour perception. Single beam landing errors - convergence
errors - are of course, much easier to see on a black and white picture.

I agree with all of the above. The only other possible extra point I
could add is that purity adjustments are nominally made with a solid
raster, and typical gamma for consumer color TV may cause compression /
squashing / clipping of the video drives, making the impact of relative
phosphor efficiency differences all the less noticeable.

As to questioning the credentials of the people that have replied to
this, being new, you should probably be aware that the William has a
lifetime's experience at the sharp end of service, sales and technical
writing, Bob has lectured the stuff, I spent many thousands of hours
of my life working on this stuff at nuts and bolts level, and Phil,
for all his occasional rants and outbursts, is a highly qualified
service engineer whose technical understanding and ability is without
question.

I have no issue with the matter of whether such effects are, as you and
others have stated, correctly described, and conceded this a day or two ago.

Being a design engineer, an inveterate tinkerer, and one who very much
needs / wants to understand the underlying "why and how does it work?",
my challenge has really attempted to gain this critical thinking and
point of view. I previously thanked others for offering such insight and
do so again here and now, with an apology, if I have somehow failed to
make this apparent. The insights and explanations of those who clearly
know better than I do is much appreciated.

 

[Smarty]

On 6/4/2013 7:26 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:

"Smarty" <nobody@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:kojq99$gah$1@dont-email.me...
On 6/3/2013 9:54 PM, hrhofmann@sbcglobal.net wrote:
There is purity, which is making sure the
3 beams hit their respective phosphors.

Let us assume that for some reason, all three electron guns come in at
an incorrect angle thru the shadow mask or grid or screen. The blue
electron gun hits 50% on the blue phosphor and 25% on the red and 25%
on the green phosphor. The red gun hits 50% on the red phosphor and
25% on the blue and 25% on the green phosphor. The green gun hits 50%
on the green phosphor and 25% on the red and blue phosphors. All
three phosphors are illuminated at 100%, so only differing electron
beam strengths due to compensating for differing phosphor efficiencies
will be noticeable in any color shading of white and gray areas of the
picture.
Your chosen example that the 3 guns are mis-registered uniformly, and
that the phosphors are all illuminated to 100% is not realistic. The
differences in phosphor efficiencies and the necessary beam currents
to achieve comparable light outputs are, as you acknowledged, quite
different. More important is the fact that mis-registered beams are
not, in general, spilling their mis-directed energy to reach 100%
phosphor saturation during a black and white program (versus the full
white example you have chosen). In general they will be generating
beam currents on the average well below peak white and perhaps closer
to black. The instantaneous beam current for, let's say, the least
efficient phosphor's gun, will be mistakenly exciting the most
efficient neighboring phosphors at the same time as the exact
opposite is occurring for nearby areas of the screen owing to the
fact that the most efficient gun is simultaneously exciting the wrong
phosphor area with too little energy. If the proposed mechanism /
concept made sense theoretically, then a black and white picture
should not show colored regions due to magnetization at all.

The ability to discern color differences has as much to do with human
vision as it does with the pure physical radiation of visible light
from the phosphor surfaces, and my partial explanation is that humans
see color variations which are much more subtle at some frequencies
compared to others. White and shades of gray reveal less whereas some
color fields reveal more.

For purposes of our discussion, the esential ingredient of impurity
of color is the non-homogeniety of the electromagnetic field due to
uncontrolled magnetic influences arising from nearby magnetized areas
including the shadow mask. To the extent that we are talking about
pretty drastic purity issues causing large blotches of color, some
areas of the CRT will have gross errors due to landings which are at
the extremes of the convergence system (and thus more likely to be
visible) or beyond the intended raster limits. Recall that the
purity control of the CRT and degausser is intended to deal with the
extremely small and subtle effects of the Earth's magnetic field,
whereas abrupt failure of the degausser is likely to impart a much
bigger residual effect unless corrected. Also, the magnetic
distortion is, unlike the Earth's field, very localized and highly
non-linear across the CRT surface, making the assumption that
spoiling of the beams occurs in any uniform way highly unlikely.



All of which is jolly interesting. Pity it doesn't match the actual
facts, as have been repeatedly put to you by a number of people very
well qualified to comment, by virtue of the fact that collectively,
they spent a very long time time working on this stuff at nuts and
bolts level, and have probably seen every possibility of purity error
on every type of CRT and under every set of circumstances possible ...

No disagreement that the well qualified folks here have seen it all and

done it all in terms of tackling all sorts of purity problems. My
intention has been to understand what causes the characteristics which
have been described, and I think a frank answer is that none of us fully
understand it but can offer explanations which are way beyond adequate
for repair purposes.

 

[hrhofmann@sbcglobal.net]

On Jun 4, 4:15 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

You could use an electric soldering gun (Weller or
similar design) or possibly a bulk tape eraser.

A bulk eraser will work, but make sure you don't accidentally shut it off near
the set. I caused serious harm to a Trinitron when this occurred.

Yeah, a good 6 feet away, with the nearest point of the power cord
also 6 feet away when turning off.

 

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker, Stalker and TROLL"

Crocodile tears.

** You are an utter idiot on every possible level.

You are totally WRONG about me.

You post hate messages because I make you look like such a fool.

Drop dead.



.... Phil

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Smarty" wrote in message news:kombo3$38i$1@dont-email.me...

I agree with all of the above. The only other possible extra point
I could add is that purity adjustments are nominally made with a
solid raster, and typical gamma for consumer color TV may cause
compression / squashing / clipping of the video drives, making
the impact of relative phosphor efficiency differences all the less
noticeable.

I don't think you understand transfer characteristics.

You're not alone. About 30 years ago, Bob Carver announced he intended to
introduce a TV monitor that eliminated the compression in the video signal.

Being a design engineer, an inveterate tinkerer, and one who very
much needs / wants to understand the underlying "why and how
does it work?", my challenge has really attempted to gain this critical
thinking and point of view. I previously thanked others for offering
such insight and do so again here and now, with an apology, if I have
somehow failed to make this apparent. The insights and explanations
of those who clearly know better than I do is much appreciated.

The operative word is "clearly".

I have been in similar situations, and when I found that there was no
communication or learning (on either side), I simply backed off and let the
dust settle.

I believe you're sincere when you say you need and want to understand
underlying principles. I am, too. But you are still clearly stuck on
"authority worship".

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message news:b17v7oFg9ovU1@mid.individual.net...
"William Sommerwanker, Stalker and TROLL"

Crocodile tears.

** You are an utter idiot on every possible level.

You are totally WRONG about me.

Then prove it. Stop posting nasty remarks when you disagree with someone.

You post hate messages because I make you look like such a fool.

And what do you make yourself look like?

When are you going to seek help?

 

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker, Stalker and TROLL"

Crocodile tears.

** You are an utter idiot on every possible level.

You are totally WRONG about me.

You post hate messages because I make you look like such a fool.

Drop fucking dead.





.... Phil

 

[Smarty]

On 6/5/2013 8:31 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Smarty" wrote in message news:kombo3$38i$1@dont-email.me...

I agree with all of the above. The only other possible extra point
I could add is that purity adjustments are nominally made with a
solid raster, and typical gamma for consumer color TV may cause
compression / squashing / clipping of the video drives, making
the impact of relative phosphor efficiency differences all the less
noticeable.

I don't think you understand transfer characteristics.

Enlighten me, William Emperor, or are your new clothes still at the dry

cleaner?

I can't wait to hear your insight on this one. Or are you intending to
send me yet another irrelevant citation?

 

[Smarty]

On 6/5/2013 8:31 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Smarty" wrote in message news:kombo3$38i$1@dont-email.me...



I believe you're sincere when you say you need and want to understand
underlying principles. I am, too. But you are still clearly stuck on
"authority worship".

Of all of your comments, this is by far the most comical.

Unlike you, who resorts to re-directing any question to a citation or
published article, as if it somehow a specific authority you might
worship answers the question, and thus relies on other authorities to
answer questions you cannot answer.....

I have been seeking explanations here, exposing my own ignorance, and
(HEAVEN FORBID) the ignorance of others, yourself included.

I have been accused of many things in my engineering career, but I
assure you that "authority worship" has never been one of them. The most
common 'complaint' I have suffered has always been: "Boy, he sure asks a
lot of questions." or "He won't take the obvious answer" I suffer these
comments gladly, since I believe this is the ONLY good way to reveal the
actual underlying facts and truth in technical areas.

Unfortunately, this same approach raises the hackles of Internet trolls,
technical wannabes, and pompous technical illiterates, who most
certainly inhabit the Internet in newsgroups, forums and elsewhere.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

I believe you're sincere when you say you need and want to
understand underlying principles. I am, too. But you are still
clearly stuck on "authority worship".

Of all of your comments, this is by far the most comical.

Unlike you, who resorts to re-directing any question to a citation
or published article, as if it somehow a specific authority you might
worship answers the question, and thus relies on other authorities
to answer questions you cannot answer...

Because you don't accept me as an authority (which you shouldn't -- or anyone
else for that matter). Yet you obviously grovel in front of Peter Scheiber.

I expect people to think think through stuff for themselves, and not blindly
believe anyone. Anyone. But people generally refuse to do this, because it
frightens them. In the case of phase shift, I could not remember the exact
reason, so I spent my valuable time searching for you, and found a clear
explanation from Michael Gerzon. Have you read the article? Do you understand
what he's talking about? (I expect an answer from you on this.)

Do you know who Michael Gerzon was? (No, of course not. You probably don't
even know who Edwin Land was, even though, as you read this, you're probably
sitting in front of a device one of inventions makes possible.) Gerzon
arguably contributed more to our understanding of the psychoacoustics of
surround sound, particularly with regard to recording & playback, encoding and
decoding, than everyone else put together.

I have been accused of many things in my engineering career, but I
assure you that "authority worship" has never been one of them. The
most common 'complaint' I have suffered has always been: "Boy, he
sure asks a lot of questions." or "He won't take the obvious answer".
I suffer these comments gladly, since I believe this is the ONLY good
way to reveal the actual underlying facts and truth in technical areas.

Asking questions is only part learning these things.

You seem to argue before you have carefully considered the information you
have received. This shows a lack of respect for the people who spend their
time trying to answer your questions. I might eventually go back to David
Janszen for further information about driver modeling -- but it won't be until
after I have thoroughly studied he pointed me do.

The world is not obliged to give you a simple, easily digested answer for
every question you might ask. Do you do your homework before you ask? I do.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kolku0$2tb$1@dont-email.me...

** Tears ..............

Crocodile tears.

Your seeming "gratitude" would be believable if you would commit yourself
to psychiatric treatment -- or at least unburdening yourself to a close
friend who cares about you (assuming such exists).

TBH, I took it as a rare flash of comedy from Phil. I thought it was just
'tongue in cheek' ??

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message news:QdKrt.32084$rW2.30902@newsfe05.iad...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:kolku0$2tb$1@dont-email.me...

** Tears ..............

Crocodile tears.
Your seeming "gratitude" would be believable if you would commit
yourself to psychiatric treatment -- or at least unburdening yourself
to a close friend who cares about you (assuming such exists).

TBH, I took it as a rare flash of comedy from Phil. I thought it was
just 'tongue in cheek'?

You are much too forgiving of Phil's grotesque misbehavior, simply because he
is extremely knowledgeable about electronics and electronics servicing.

It is he who created the problem with his beyond-rude behavior. Neither I nor
anyone in this group is obliged to tolerate it or remain silent.