9v battery terminal blanks?

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

BobW wrote:

Do you have any info that indicates that they can't put out as much current
and/or have higher internal resistance (over time) compared with alkalines?

Sorry, I said two different things in the same paragraph and may have created
some confusion.

First the slow self-discharge rechargable batteries have a higher internal
resistance and lower output current than the "regular" ones of the same
chemistry.

Therefore "slow" NiMH batteries have a higher internal resistance, lower
output current and longer recharge times than regual NiMH batteries.


"Slow" alkeline batteries have a higher internal resistance, lower
output current and longer recharge times than regular alkeline batteries.

I mentioned the alkeline ones as their high internal resistance was a
deal killer for me. I could not use on HT's (handheld radios). They worked
fine with 1 watt output (low power), but on high power (3-4 watts), they
failed.

Going back to the NiMH batteries, I can't say how well they will hold up
over time. I only use them on MP3 players that take a single AAA battery.
So far it has not been good, the first batch to almost 10 cycles to
have any usefull capacity. It may also have been my fault, because I
charged them with the included charger which needed 24 hours or more
to charge them.

The second batch has been charged only with a higher current charger and
they seem fine.

Note that the players are low current devices, they discharge at about a
rate of 100ma or less.

I have been using the Hybrio hybrid batteries in a Canon SX100IS digital
camera for about a year now and I haven't noticed anything problematic about
them. They last a LONG time without any special conditioning. I use a Maha
MH-C401FS charger (set to 'slow').

I've used alkalines in several different cameras and have had horrible
results with them.

All alkelines have a higher internal resistance, which is probably why you
have the problem with them. If you are a camera buff, that was one of the
two differences between the Canon T-90 and EOS-1. The T-90 used AA batteries,
the EOS used lithium. Canon was unable to get the current they needed for
all of the electronics in the camera from AA batteries.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

 

[ian field]

"Ron Johnson" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:nr2dnZHkN6rliNfUnZ2dnUVZ8sXinZ2d@bt.com...

jakdedert wrote:
John E. wrote:
... and I never ever use rechargables in radio packs.
ROn(UK)

Why? [if you wouldn't mind a newbie question...]

See my multiple posts on the subject. For most presentation purposes,
the proven reliability of the good old alkaline--fresh out of the box--is
superior. One less thing to worry about in a complex and demanding
environment.

The cost of having a show 'go down' is much more than that of fresh
cells...especially if the cost is losing your job.


What he said. The risk just isn't worth it for the price of a few
batteries.
There`s also the factor that some low end radio mikes seem to object to
rechargable batteries (certainly nicads) It`s possibly the batteries
internal resistance changing as it discharges.
I`ve not really studied it, but when the rechargable discharges beyond a
certain point, the transmitters agc seems to get screwed up and unstable,
feedback is the result. Maybe someone with more technical understanding
can explain.

Ron(UK)

You don't need much technical understanding to know that NiCd & NiMh
batteries have a lower terminal voltage.

 

[Ron Johnson]

ian field wrote:

"Ron Johnson" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:nr2dnZHkN6rliNfUnZ2dnUVZ8sXinZ2d@bt.com...
jakdedert wrote:
John E. wrote:
... and I never ever use rechargables in radio packs.
ROn(UK)
Why? [if you wouldn't mind a newbie question...]
See my multiple posts on the subject. For most presentation purposes,
the proven reliability of the good old alkaline--fresh out of the box--is
superior. One less thing to worry about in a complex and demanding
environment.

The cost of having a show 'go down' is much more than that of fresh
cells...especially if the cost is losing your job.

What he said. The risk just isn't worth it for the price of a few
batteries.
There`s also the factor that some low end radio mikes seem to object to
rechargable batteries (certainly nicads) It`s possibly the batteries
internal resistance changing as it discharges.
I`ve not really studied it, but when the rechargable discharges beyond a
certain point, the transmitters agc seems to get screwed up and unstable,
feedback is the result. Maybe someone with more technical understanding
can explain.

Ron(UK)

You don't need much technical understanding to know that NiCd & NiMh
batteries have a lower terminal voltage.

It`s not to do with the terminal voltage, it`s something to do with the
batteries internal resistance. Wireless packs are designed for
replacable batteries. The internal battery metering is calibrated for
Alkalines.

Remember the OP was talking 9v (PP3) batteries here, You're asking for
trouble using anything other than Procells or Energisers.

Ron

 

[Peter Hucker]

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:14:01 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

Then use the new type of NiMH, the pre-charged ones which don't lose
power sat on the shelf. Take them out the packet and they are as good as
alkalines. Only keep them for a fraction of their life if you want a
nice long charge, and put them in a trickle charger when not in use.


There are three problems with them. The first is that they are supplied
charged, but only about 80% charged.

I wasn't aware of that, although 80% sounds pretty good to me. You can always fill them before use (which is what we always used to do with the old type).

While they take longer to discharge
on their own, if they sit on the shelf for a year or so, they very well
may be flat.

The manufacturers claim they only lose 10% in a year.

The second is that they do not reach their full capacity when recharged
until they have been through 3 or 4 recharge cycles. I have found with
the ones I bought it took even longer, sometimes 10 cycles to get
any useful life out of them.

Odd, I've bought Eneloop and Hybrio and had nothing but perfection.

The third is that they have a higher internal resistance which limits their
output current. That is why the rechargeable alkelines that came out around
1995 never really took off. They were lower in capacity to the disposable
ones (about 80%) to allow room for expansion, and they did not put out
the current that nicads or regular alkelines did.

If you're using them in something that needs a high output current, I dread to think how much it's costing you in alkalines.

They also do not charge as fast. I charge mine in a 7 hour NiMH charger,
but have to do it twice. Using the little fixed rate charger that came
with a set, I have to charge then for at least 24 hours.

How long?!?!? I bought a Uniross FIFTEEN MINUTE charger. It charges them in 15 minutes *using a cooling fan) to 80%, then the final 20% in another 15 minutes.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

"Flashlights are tubular metal containers kept in a flight bag for the purpose of storing dead batteries."

 

[Jamie]

DaveC wrote:

I want to keep some NiMH rechargeable 9v batteries in my tool bag (well, my
meter bag, actually). I am currently running a double loop of electrical tape
around the entire battery to insulate the terminals.

I'd like to use something more durable (one battery has had a terminal peek
through the tape) and was thinking about something like a battery terminal
connector but made of insulating material like nylon (probably of some
cheaper plastic).

Does such a thing exist? I did web searches, but maybe my terminology isn't
spot-on...

Ideas?

Thanks,

You mean something like this.

http://www.organize.com/storage-battery.html?gclid=CNO9jpq_zZcCFQhMGgodgG0uSw
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[Peter Hucker]

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:56:44 -0000, jakdedert <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

snip

Then use the new type of NiMH, the pre-charged ones which don't lose power sat on the shelf. Take them out the packet and they are as good as alkalines. Only keep them for a fraction of their life if you want a nice long charge, and put them in a trickle charger when not in use.


In a word; no.

We don't have trickle chargers in the truck that takes them to the next
city; nor the time to monitor their health. A new Procell is a 'known'
resource. It always works, IME. It always lasts about the same amount
of time. When it's exhausted (actually long before) we discard it--or
switch it to less demanding tasks--and grab a new one (which will last
exactly as long as the last one did). I have a box of used ones right
across the room. Want some? They're great for kids toys, flashlights,
portable radios etc.

You're not listening. Use them yourself if you want to. I value my job
and my reputation much higher than the price of a new battery...or a
thousand of them.

What will you do when they stop making them?

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

I had amnesia once -- or twice.

 

[Peter Hucker]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:13:13 -0000, Ron Johnson <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

ian field wrote:
"Ron Johnson" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:nr2dnZHkN6rliNfUnZ2dnUVZ8sXinZ2d@bt.com...
jakdedert wrote:
John E. wrote:
... and I never ever use rechargables in radio packs.
ROn(UK)
Why? [if you wouldn't mind a newbie question...]
See my multiple posts on the subject. For most presentation purposes,
the proven reliability of the good old alkaline--fresh out of the box--is
superior. One less thing to worry about in a complex and demanding
environment.

The cost of having a show 'go down' is much more than that of fresh
cells...especially if the cost is losing your job.

What he said. The risk just isn't worth it for the price of a few
batteries.
There`s also the factor that some low end radio mikes seem to object to
rechargable batteries (certainly nicads) It`s possibly the batteries
internal resistance changing as it discharges.
I`ve not really studied it, but when the rechargable discharges beyond a
certain point, the transmitters agc seems to get screwed up and unstable,
feedback is the result. Maybe someone with more technical understanding
can explain.

Ron(UK)

You don't need much technical understanding to know that NiCd & NiMh
batteries have a lower terminal voltage.


It`s not to do with the terminal voltage, it`s something to do with the
batteries internal resistance. Wireless packs are designed for
replacable batteries. The internal battery metering is calibrated for
Alkalines.

Remember the OP was talking 9v (PP3) batteries here, You're asking for
trouble using anything other than Procells or Energisers.

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

A beautiful young girl is about to undergo a minor operation.
She's laid on a trolley bed by a lady in a white dress and brought to the corridor.
Before they enter the room she leaves her behind the theatre door to go in and check whether everything is ready.
A young man wearing a white coat approaches, takes the sheet away and starts examining her naked body.
He walks away and talks to another man in a white coat.
The second man comes over and does the same examinations.
When a third man starts examining her body so closely, she grows impatient and says:
"All these examinations are fine and appreciated, but when are you going to start the operation?"
The man in the white coat shrugged his shoulders: "I have no idea. We're just painting the corridor."

 

[Peter Hucker]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 06:44:03 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

BobW wrote:
Do you have any info that indicates that they can't put out as much current
and/or have higher internal resistance (over time) compared with alkalines?

Sorry, I said two different things in the same paragraph and may have created
some confusion.

First the slow self-discharge rechargable batteries have a higher internal
resistance and lower output current than the "regular" ones of the same
chemistry.

Therefore "slow" NiMH batteries have a higher internal resistance, lower
output current and longer recharge times than regual NiMH batteries.

Then how come I charge them in 15 minutes in a Uniross rapid charger?

"Slow" alkeline batteries have a higher internal resistance, lower
output current and longer recharge times than regular alkeline batteries.

What are slow alkaline batteries? No alkalines self discharge, so why ake slow ones?

I mentioned the alkeline ones as their high internal resistance was a
deal killer for me. I could not use on HT's (handheld radios). They worked
fine with 1 watt output (low power), but on high power (3-4 watts), they
failed.

Going back to the NiMH batteries, I can't say how well they will hold up
over time. I only use them on MP3 players that take a single AAA battery.
So far it has not been good, the first batch to almost 10 cycles to
have any usefull capacity. It may also have been my fault, because I
charged them with the included charger which needed 24 hours or more
to charge them.

The second batch has been charged only with a higher current charger and
they seem fine.

I once got a large batch of dud NiMHs. They were non-slow Uniross batteries. They functioned normally for about 3 weeks with a few charges, then started self discharging so rapidly I couldn't leave them on a shelf for 2 days!

Note that the players are low current devices, they discharge at about a
rate of 100ma or less.



I have been using the Hybrio hybrid batteries in a Canon SX100IS digital
camera for about a year now and I haven't noticed anything problematic about
them. They last a LONG time without any special conditioning. I use a Maha
MH-C401FS charger (set to 'slow').

I've used alkalines in several different cameras and have had horrible
results with them.

All alkelines have a higher internal resistance, which is probably why you
have the problem with them. If you are a camera buff, that was one of the
two differences between the Canon T-90 and EOS-1. The T-90 used AA batteries,
the EOS used lithium. Canon was unable to get the current they needed for
all of the electronics in the camera from AA batteries.

There are Lithium AAs.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

When is it ok for a man to hug another man?
A. If he's your father and at least one of you has a fatal disease.
B. If you're performing the Heimlich maneuver.
C. If you're a professional baseball player and a teammate hits a home run to win the World Series, you may hug him provided that:
(1) He is legally within the base path
(2) Both of you are wearing sufficient protection, and
(3) You also pound him fraternally with your fist hard enough to cause fractures.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

Show us some of your designs, troll.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[ian field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e9CdnUM894RZ2tDUnZ2dnUVZ_j0AAAAA@earthlink.com...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

ian field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e9CdnUM894RZ2tDUnZ2dnUVZ_j0AAAAA@earthlink.com...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!

I forgot: A frozen parrot on a stick doesn't count.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[ian field]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e9CdnX8894ST19DUnZ2dnUVZ_j0AAAAA@earthlink.com...

ian field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:e9CdnUM894RZ2tDUnZ2dnUVZ_j0AAAAA@earthlink.com...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!


I forgot: A frozen parrot on a stick doesn't count.

PHucker couldn't even design that!

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Peter Hucker wrote:

There are Lithium AAs.

There are 1.5 volt lithium batteries, such as AA's. They are rare, and
have extremely long shelf life, but I have never seen specs for
discharge rate, etc.

The only ones I have ever seen were packed with a fan powered gas mask,
but I think you can get them if you shop around.

Considering the shelf life of alkeline batteries sold here is less than
a year, even the "name brands". It's almost a moot point. We no longer
get any batteries from west of us, they all come from Korea, "China"
(inside the PRC), Singapore or Hong Kong.

Even the Japanese brands (Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba) are made in China,
and so are the famous US brands (EverReady, DuraCell). The only one missing
is Ray-O-Vac.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

 

[Ron(UK)]

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.

P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

"Ron(UK)" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in
news:HKadnVPgwPOru9PUnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@bt.com:

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.

Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street shop
level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For decades dull
black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on them, regardless of how
tacky they are, never has an industry blown its trumpet so loudly.

Do they use alkalines in space? In oil drilling gear that has to go down deep
in the earth and stand vibrations? In pacemakers? In aircraft black boxes?
Ok, maybe they do, sometimes, but there are lot of battery technologies
reached for when mission critical reliability is needed, and I bet most
industries don't reach for alkalines. Oil wells reach for lithium thionyl
chloride, for example. If long life primaries with extreme reliability are
important to people who are so up themselves with their 'reputation' and
their expensive hours that are worth SO many batteries, why not buy those?

Instead of clinging to one aging method that is highly polluting, use some
imagination and explore what REAL professionals with mission critical
requirements are up to. Compared to those, the industry that makes such a
song and dance of putting microphones in front of delegates at conferences is
like the hairdressers and telephone sanitisers that Douglas Adams whimsically
crashlanded on some planet along with a captain with a penchant for bathtubs
and rubber ducks. > While we need entertainment and communication to make
life worth living, people used to get by till very recently without having to
use so many mics to feel important or get themselves heard.

Get a grip. This thread has wound its way round this silly circle for too
long, and I should never have got into it myself, but I have, and this is my
parting shot. I'll read the flames if I have the patience, but I will try not
to get further involved.

I admit to using a few alkalines at times, but either where laziness is more
attractive than performance, or where nothing else fits yet. If I could
change all to Li-ion or lithium thionyl chloride types, I would.
Specifically, the only time I justify an alkaline is when I need a PP3 that
is ready to use, between long periods of disuse. For anything else, I find
another way.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
<ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.

I used to have a badly damaged wireless mic that caught fire while in
use. If it hadn't been in a thick leather case the user would have had
third degree burns where the ni-cads failed. He got some first & second
degree burns as it was. The inside of the leather case was soaked with
the contents of the vented cells, which would have caused more damage.
The brand & model information was burnt off, along with most of the
circuitry. The man using it reportedly grabbed it from his chest & threw
it across the room before it could do more damage. When they showed it
to me they didn't know who made it, and the dealer they bought it from
was out of business.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[Peter Hucker]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:19:02 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:
There are Lithium AAs.

There are 1.5 volt lithium batteries, such as AA's. They are rare, and
have extremely long shelf life, but I have never seen specs for
discharge rate, etc.

The only ones I have ever seen were packed with a fan powered gas mask,
but I think you can get them if you shop around.

http://www.farnell.co.uk

Search for lithium aa

There are loads of name brands.

Considering the shelf life of alkeline batteries sold here is less than
a year, even the "name brands". It's almost a moot point. We no longer
get any batteries from west of us, they all come from Korea, "China"
(inside the PRC), Singapore or Hong Kong.

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4 or 5 years in the future.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

In light of the Madrid bombing, France has raised its terror alert level from "run" to "hide."
The only two higher levels in France are "surrender" and "collaborate."

 

[Peter Hucker]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:28:09 -0000, Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogdotyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.

Duracell quote PP3 9v internal resistance as 1.7ohm, which makes the Short circuit current 5.29 Amps - not nearly as much as a NiCd!
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/new/MN1604_US_CT.pdf

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

(
))
(((
))))
(((((
/`-./\.-'\
\ / \ /
) (
\ /
%%%%%%
%%%%
%%%%
%%%%
%%%%
`--'

 

[Peter Hucker]

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:09:02 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.

The only batteries I see leaking are Zinc Carbons, and Alkalines that were bought over 5 years ago. It seems strange you are getting such crap quality cells. I mostly get Duracell and some other lesser known brands.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

|
--====|====--
|
.-"""""-.
.'_________'.
/_/_|__|__|_\_\
;'-._ _.-';
,--------------------| `-. .-' |--------------------,
``""--..__ ___ ; ' ; ___ __..--""``
`"-// \\.._\ /_..// \\-"`
\\_// '._ _.' \\_//
`"` ``---`` `"`