2.4mm 50GHz coax cables

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:32:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:
My interest is in test fixtures where I definitely need coax. 50 GHz
is just a stepping stone.

More like a stumbling block. You're likely to have a difficult time
keeping up as the FCC moves from auctioning off everything in sight to
auctioning off bands that are well out of sight. Are you ready for
3THz? Don't worry, because nobody else is either:
"FCC opens 95GHz to 3THz spectrum for ‘6G, 7G, or whatever’ is next"
https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/15/fcc-opens-95ghz-to-3thz-spectrum-for-6g-7g-or-whatever-is-next/
300GHz to 3THz signals are at or under 1 millimeter
in wavelength, and for that reason called "submillimeter waves."
I guess the article author, the FCC, or both don't know about
micrometer and nanometer wavelengths.

The expression "submillimeter waves." has been used for decades by
radio astronomers.

What is strange in that news is that FCC starts the reallocation from
95 GHz, while international frequency allocation tables already extend
to at least 275 GHz. Most of these are for passive radio astronomy and
earth sensing, containing some interesting spectral lines,

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com>
wrote:

>It just takes money.

Yeah, but *heaps* of it for the spectrum you're aspiring to work in.
--

No deal? No problem! :-D

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 15:58:14 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

110GHz BW, 256GS/s, $1.3 Million US dollars

And it doesn't stop there. I wonder what a set of calibration
standards, interconnects, adaptors, attenuators and whatnot costs for
a BW like that. :-/
Steve's going to need very deep pockets - or a friendly investor.
--

No deal? No problem! :-D

 

[Steve Wilson]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

https://youtu.be/DXYje2B04xE

110GHz BW, 256GS/s, $1.3 Million US dollars

Followup on Micron abandoning Keysight Memory.

So they made the decision to go with micron memory early on and it
was too late to switch, bad luck. Or are they actually using HBM(2),
which offers far more speed and more memory per packacke. HMC just
wasn't competitive and is discontinued.

Hybrid Memory Cube (HMC) --> HBM (High-Bandwidth Memory)

Micron is discontinuing the HMC product

https://www.micron.com/about/blog/2018/august/micron-announces-shift-in-
high-performance-memory-roadmap-strategy

Hybrid Memory Cube was co-developed by Samsung Electronics and
Micron Technology in 2011,[1] and announced by Micron in September
2011.[2]. It promised a 15 times speed improvement over DDR3.[3] The
Hybrid Memory Cube Consortium (HMCC) is backed by several major
technology companies including Samsung, Micron Technology,
Open-Silicon, ARM, HP (since withdrawn), Microsoft (since
withdrawn), Altera (acquired by Intel in late 2015), and
Xilinx.[4][5] Micron, while continuing to support HMCC, is
discontinuing the HMC product [6] in 2018 when it failed to achieve
market adoption.

HMC combines through-silicon vias (TSV) and microbumps to connect
multiple (currently 4 to 8) dies of memory cell arrays on top of
each other.[7] The memory controller is integrated as a separate
die.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Memory_Cube

High Bandwidth Memory (HBM) is a high-performance RAM interface for
3D-stacked SDRAM from Samsung, AMD and SK Hynix. It is used in
conjunction with high-performance graphics accelerators and network
devices.[1] The first HBM memory chip was produced by SK Hynix in
2013,[2] and the first devices to use HBM were the AMD Fiji GPUs in
2015.[3][4]

High Bandwidth Memory has been adopted by JEDEC as an industry
standard in October 2013.[5] The second generation, HBM2, was
accepted by JEDEC in January 2016.[6]

HBM achieves higher bandwidth while using less power in a
substantially smaller form factor than DDR4 or GDDR5.[7] This is
achieved by stacking up to eight DRAM dies (thus being a
Three-dimensional integrated circuit), including an optional base
die with a memory controller, which are interconnected by
through-silicon vias (TSVs) and microbumps. The HBM technology is
similar in principle but incompatible with the Hybrid Memory Cube
interface developed by Micron Technology.[8]

HBM memory bus is very wide in comparison to other DRAM memories
such as DDR4 or GDDR5. An HBM stack of four DRAM dies (4?Hi) has two
128?bit channels per die for a total of 8 channels and a width of
1024 bits in total. A graphics card/GPU with four 4?Hi HBM stacks
would therefore have a memory bus with a width of 4096 bits. In
comparison, the bus width of GDDR memories is 32 bits, with 16
channels for a graphics card with a 512?bit memory interface.[9] HBM
supports up to 4 GB per package.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Bandwidth_Memory

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 09:53:12 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:32:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:
My interest is in test fixtures where I definitely need coax. 50 GHz
is just a stepping stone.

More like a stumbling block. You're likely to have a difficult time
keeping up as the FCC moves from auctioning off everything in sight to
auctioning off bands that are well out of sight. Are you ready for
3THz? Don't worry, because nobody else is either:
"FCC opens 95GHz to 3THz spectrum for ‘6G, 7G, or whatever’ is next"
https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/15/fcc-opens-95ghz-to-3thz-spectrum-for-6g-7g-or-whatever-is-next/
300GHz to 3THz signals are at or under 1 millimeter
in wavelength, and for that reason called "submillimeter waves."
I guess the article author, the FCC, or both don't know about
micrometer and nanometer wavelengths.

The expression "submillimeter waves." has been used for decades by
radio astronomers.

Thanks. I'm not into astronomy and didn't know that. However, if
radio astronomy has progressed to such such frequencies, perhaps it
might be useful to inform them of micrometers and nanometers?

What is strange in that news is that FCC starts the reallocation from
95 GHz, while international frequency allocation tables already extend
to at least 275 GHz. Most of these are for passive radio astronomy and
earth sensing, containing some interesting spectral lines,

"FCC ONLINE TABLE OF FREQUENCY ALLOCATIONS"
<https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/spectrum/table/fcctable.pdf>
See Pg 68 for the highest frequencies allocated by the FCC. Looks
like it's 275GHz. The last entry is "275 - 3000 GHz not allocated"
with "amateur radio" as the primary(?) user.

What will probably happen is a replay of the Ligado (LightSquared)
allocation problem with GPS interference. Ligado won a chunk of
spectrum adjacent to the GPS band and wants to use it for cellular
phone and data service. Since they contributed to the campaign of
Democrat president, and we now have a Republican in office, they may
need to wait until the next Democrat administration approves their
science fiction solution to the interference problem.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligado_Networks>
<https://ligado.com>

Something similar happened when the FCC allocated the 24 GHz band for
5G without bothering to look at their own allocation table to see if
it was already in use. It seems that it's an important frequency for
radiometers used for satellite weather forecasting.
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredcampbell/2019/06/21/department-of-commerce-attacks-on-fcc-5g-rules-for-24-ghz-spectrum-are-inappropriate/>
Summary: NOAA lost.

I expect similar frequency conflicts to be a continuing problem as the
FCC merrily monitizes spectrum to support government spending.
Frequency bands will be reallocated and auctioned followed by protests
by incumbent users. It won't be pretty.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:49:47 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Something similar happened when the FCC allocated the 24 GHz band for
5G without bothering to look at their own allocation table to see if
it was already in use. It seems that it's an important frequency for
radiometers used for satellite weather forecasting.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredcampbell/2019/06/21/department-of-commerce-attacks-on-fcc-5g-rules-for-24-ghz-spectrum-are-inappropriate/
Summary: NOAA lost.

I expect similar frequency conflicts to be a continuing problem as the
FCC merrily monitizes spectrum to support government spending.
Frequency bands will be reallocated and auctioned followed by protests
by incumbent users. It won't be pretty.

Next there will be an auction for visible spectrum.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
"Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:52:41 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>Next there will be an auction for visible spectrum.

If the FCC thought that companies might pay for those frequencies,
they would certainly try to sell it. That could have happened with
dark fiber and WDM (wave division multiplex).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength-division_multiplexing>
Proponents of FTTH (fiber to the home) and MAN (metro area networks)
proposed an optical network where the various carrier monopolies would
provide the necessary switching and routing. I may have saved the
wallchart full of proposed topologies which I picked up somewhere. As
I vaguely recall, someone suggested that it would be nice if the
wavelengths (colors) used by various entities were standardized. I
don't know if they were serious or joking, but they recommended that
the FCC administer the allocations. Knowing the FCC, I suspect that
they would jump at the opportunity to auction off something they don't
really understand.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:49:47 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Something similar happened when the FCC allocated the 24 GHz band for
5G without bothering to look at their own allocation table to see if
it was already in use. It seems that it's an important frequency for
radiometers used for satellite weather forecasting.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredcampbell/2019/06/21/department-of-commerce-attacks-on-fcc-5g-rules-for-24-ghz-spectrum-are-inappropriate/
Summary: NOAA lost.

There is a strong water vapor absorbtion line at 22 GHz, which is
useful for determine the amount of vapor in the atmosphere for a
specific geographical area.

Why is NOAA talking about 250 MHz frequency difference, when the
difference is about 2 GHz ? Perhaps the satellite receiver bandwidth
is several GHz wide ?

 

[Steve Wilson]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 09:53:12 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:32:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:
My interest is in test fixtures where I definitely need coax. 50 GHz
is just a stepping stone.

More like a stumbling block. You're likely to have a difficult time
keeping up as the FCC moves from auctioning off everything in sight to
auctioning off bands that are well out of sight. Are you ready for
3THz? Don't worry, because nobody else is either:
"FCC opens 95GHz to 3THz spectrum for ‘6G, 7G, or whatever’ is next"
https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/15/fcc-opens-95ghz-to-3thz-spectrum-fo
r-6g-7g-or-whatever-is-next/
300GHz to 3THz signals are at or under 1 millimeter
in wavelength, and for that reason called "submillimeter waves."
I guess the article author, the FCC, or both don't know about
micrometer and nanometer wavelengths.

The expression "submillimeter waves." has been used for decades by
radio astronomers.

Thanks. I'm not into astronomy and didn't know that. However, if
radio astronomy has progressed to such such frequencies, perhaps it
might be useful to inform them of micrometers and nanometers?

What is strange in that news is that FCC starts the reallocation from
95 GHz, while international frequency allocation tables already extend
to at least 275 GHz. Most of these are for passive radio astronomy and
earth sensing, containing some interesting spectral lines,

"FCC ONLINE TABLE OF FREQUENCY ALLOCATIONS"
https://transition.fcc.gov/oet/spectrum/table/fcctable.pdf
See Pg 68 for the highest frequencies allocated by the FCC. Looks
like it's 275GHz. The last entry is "275 - 3000 GHz not allocated"
with "amateur radio" as the primary(?) user.

What will probably happen is a replay of the Ligado (LightSquared)
allocation problem with GPS interference. Ligado won a chunk of
spectrum adjacent to the GPS band and wants to use it for cellular
phone and data service. Since they contributed to the campaign of
Democrat president, and we now have a Republican in office, they may
need to wait until the next Democrat administration approves their
science fiction solution to the interference problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligado_Networks
https://ligado.com

The military needs GPS for their aircraft and smart bombs. Ligado is not
going anywhere.

 

[Steve Wilson]

Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

What will probably happen is a replay of the Ligado (LightSquared)
allocation problem with GPS interference. Ligado won a chunk of
spectrum adjacent to the GPS band and wants to use it for cellular
phone and data service. Since they contributed to the campaign of
Democrat president, and we now have a Republican in office, they may
need to wait until the next Democrat administration approves their
science fiction solution to the interference problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligado_Networks> <https://ligado.com

The military needs GPS for their aircraft and smart bombs. Ligado is not
going anywhere.

Insidegnss.com, January 22, 2020

DOD Just Says “No”

The “clear and unambiguous” perspective of the EXCOM opinion was noted in
the Nov 18 letter sent to the FCC by Secretary of Defense Mark Esper, whose
opinion has probably had the most overall impact. There are, he said, “too
many unknowns and the risks are far too great to federal operations to
allow Ligado ‘s proposed system to proceed.”

“All independent and scientifically valid testing and technical data shows
the potential for widespread disruption and degradation of GPS services
from the proposed Ligado system,” Esper wrote. “This could have a
significant negative impact on military operations, both in peacetime and
war. I, therefore, strongly oppose this license modification.”

Esper pointed out that, by law, he could not agree to any restriction on
the GPS System proposed by the head of a department or agency of the United
States outside DOD “that would adversely affect the military potential of
GPS.” That language was passed by Congress as part of the National Defense
Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1998 and became law in 1997. Any statute
is important but because the FCC is overseen by Congress, and not the
executive branch, it may carry more weight than usual. It’s harder to go
against mandates set by lawmakers when they are, effectively, your bosses.

https://insidegnss.com/ligado-controversy-remains-unresolved/

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-01-25 02:53, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:32:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:
My interest is in test fixtures where I definitely need coax. 50 GHz
is just a stepping stone.

More like a stumbling block. You're likely to have a difficult time
keeping up as the FCC moves from auctioning off everything in sight to
auctioning off bands that are well out of sight. Are you ready for
3THz? Don't worry, because nobody else is either:
"FCC opens 95GHz to 3THz spectrum for ‘6G, 7G, or whatever’ is next"
https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/15/fcc-opens-95ghz-to-3thz-spectrum-for-6g-7g-or-whatever-is-next/
300GHz to 3THz signals are at or under 1 millimeter
in wavelength, and for that reason called "submillimeter waves."
I guess the article author, the FCC, or both don't know about
micrometer and nanometer wavelengths.

The expression "submillimeter waves." has been used for decades by
radio astronomers.

That's the general rule IIUC. In lithography and microscopy, for
example, "submicron" means 0.1-1 um, below which you're allowed to use
"nanometre" as an adjective.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 22:36:02 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:49:47 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

Something similar happened when the FCC allocated the 24 GHz band for
5G without bothering to look at their own allocation table to see if
it was already in use. It seems that it's an important frequency for
radiometers used for satellite weather forecasting.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredcampbell/2019/06/21/department-of-commerce-attacks-on-fcc-5g-rules-for-24-ghz-spectrum-are-inappropriate/
Summary: NOAA lost.

There is a strong water vapor absorbtion line at 22 GHz, which is
useful for determine the amount of vapor in the atmosphere for a
specific geographical area.

Why is NOAA talking about 250 MHz frequency difference, when the
difference is about 2 GHz ? Perhaps the satellite receiver bandwidth
is several GHz wide ?

Because the FCC is political, not mathematical.

"FCC's Pai: Study on 24 GHz Weather Data Issue is Fundamentally
Flawed"
<https://www.multichannel.com/news/fcc-pai-study-on-24-ghz-weather-data-issue-is-fundamentally-flawed>
He said that is because the 5G technology that will be
employed in the band is a "rifle shot" not a "shotgun blast."

Really? 5G will be narrowband? So much for gigabit bandwidth via 5G.

He also said the study assumed base stations and devices would
be using spectrum simultaneously, which was impossible,

Really? I guess he's never heard of full duplex communications.

and said that the spectrum for 5G and the spectrum for passive
weather sensors was separated by 250 MHz.

Well, let's see if that works:
<https://www.fiercewireless.com/5g/noaa-chief-warns-24-ghz-5g-would-hamper-weather-forecasts>
5G will use 24.25 GHz - 24.45 GHz and 24.75 - 25.25 GHz
The water vapor radiometer operate at 23.8 and 31.65 GHz.
24.25 - 23.8 = 450 MHz
minus half of whatever bandwidth the radiometer requires. This
article suggests a 400 MHz bandwidth. I gotta dig some more to find
out what is actually used:
"The impact of passband characteristics on imaging microwaveradiometer
brightness temperatures over the ocean"
<https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/rds.20041>
Therefore, the frequency separation would be:
24,250,000 - 23,800,00 - 400/2 = 250 MHz
So, yes... they are separated by 250 MHz, which in my never humble
opinion should be sufficient to keep interference to a minimum. There
really should be about a 50 MHz guard band between services but what's
few MHz when discussing political issues?

So, Chairperson Pai got one out of three claims correct. Impressive.

NOAA Water Vapor Imagery
<https://www.nesdis.noaa.gov/content/water-vapor-imagery>
Try the vertical scroll bar on the right of the image, spin the mouse
wheel, or download the MP4 animation.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558