2.4mm 50GHz coax cables

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 12:38:02 PM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:30:19 -0800 (PST), "John Miles, KE5FX"
jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:44:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:
One of the least expensive I have found is CentricRF at $150:

https://tinyurl.com/sveffcr

Seems like a good deal, except for the part about being 4 inches long.

A 50 GHz signal won't travel far over coax!

That depends a bit on the insulator. Vacuum insulated coaxial cable should offer relatively low losses, and if you used a high temperature super-conductors for the conductors, they'd be even lower.

I've wondered how useful a 100 GHz sampling oscilloscope can be. It's
hard to get a signal to it.

Portable oscilloscopes can be taken fairly close to the signal. I once ended up using a time domain reflectomenter halfway up the side of a large superconducting magnet. Some of it's wiring had gone open circuit, and we were trying to work out exactly where. The guy who had had the idea had one leg blown off by a land-mine in 1946 (when he was about nine) and wasn't up to doing the clambering required to test it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com>
wrote:

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77 GHz.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar
That's my next target after 50 GHz.

I thought you were looking for coaxial cable that needed to pass DC to
50GHz. Automotive radar lives at 76 to 81 GHz where the transmission
lines do not need to pass lower frequencies. So, 77 GHz waveguide
(WR12) and coax transitions should work.
<https://www.everythingrf.com/tech-resources/waveguides-sizes/wr12>
From what I've seen from Ti, there isn't any coax or waveguide being
used except in test fixtures and maybe evaluation boards.
<http://www.ti.com/product/AWR1642>
<http://www.ti.com/tool/AWR1642BOOST?jktype=tools_software>
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=AWR1642>
All the RF is on the same PCB as the antenna array with microstrip
transmission lines. However, the array is used for beam forming and
steering, where all the transmission lines between the RF sources and
antennas must be phase matched. The built in calibration helps reduce
the phase matching problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Phase matching
is possible on a PCB or machined metal substrate, but far more
difficult and expensive for individual coax cables or waveguides at
the level of precision needed.
77GHz = 3.9mm wavelength
where 1 degree = 0.01 mm = 10 micrometers or microns
Therefore, I don't think you'll see any coax cables running at 77 GHz
in auto radar products.

Reminder: RF is magic.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 2:07:28 PM UTC+11, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77 GHz..
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar
That's my next target after 50 GHz.

I thought you were looking for coaxial cable that needed to pass DC to
50GHz. Automotive radar lives at 76 to 81 GHz where the transmission
lines do not need to pass lower frequencies. So, 77 GHz waveguide
(WR12) and coax transitions should work.
https://www.everythingrf.com/tech-resources/waveguides-sizes/wr12
From what I've seen from Ti, there isn't any coax or waveguide being
used except in test fixtures and maybe evaluation boards.
http://www.ti.com/product/AWR1642
http://www.ti.com/tool/AWR1642BOOST?jktype=tools_software
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=AWR1642
All the RF is on the same PCB as the antenna array with microstrip
transmission lines. However, the array is used for beam forming and
steering, where all the transmission lines between the RF sources and
antennas must be phase matched. The built in calibration helps reduce
the phase matching problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Phase matching
is possible on a PCB or machined metal substrate, but far more
difficult and expensive for individual coax cables or waveguides at
the level of precision needed.
77GHz = 3.9mm wavelength
where 1 degree = 0.01 mm = 10 micrometers or microns
Therefore, I don't think you'll see any coax cables running at 77 GHz
in auto radar products.

Reminder: RF is magic.

Only in the Arthur C. Clarke sense that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic until you have mastered the technology.

Somebody who wanted a transmission line section whose length could be smoothly varied over 3.9mm with a resolution of better than 10 microns could get one made if they had access to sufficiently skillful and ingenious mechanical engineers and decent machine tools. The prototype might not be cheap, but the unit price would depend on production volume, and cars are made in high volume.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[mpm]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 10:22:38 PM UTC-5, Bill Sloman wrote:

Somebody who wanted a transmission line section whose length could be smoothly varied over 3.9mm with a resolution of better than 10 microns could get one made if they had access to sufficiently skillful and ingenious mechanical engineers and decent machine tools. The prototype might not be cheap, but the unit price would depend on production volume, and cars are made in high volume.

I don't think you'd need Arthur Clarke for that...
Just (very precisely) control the temperature.
Problem solved.

I mean, once you got it close.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:22:32 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
<bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 2:07:28 PM UTC+11, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Reminder: RF is magic.

Only in the Arthur C. Clarke sense that any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic until you have mastered
the technology.

I beg to differ on two counts.
1. The more you dig into the details and minutiae of a given
technology, the more you realize how little we really know about it.
2. On the internet, and sufficiently clever platitude is deemed to be
fact if repeated often enough. "RF is magic" is a good example.

Somebody who wanted a transmission line section whose length could
be smoothly varied over 3.9mm with a resolution of better than
10 microns could get one made if they had access to sufficiently
skillful and ingenious mechanical engineers and decent machine tools.

Nobody wants that. They want the transmission lines to be phase
matched as close as possible to each other. That doesn't mean just
cut to identical lengths but also to compensate for variations in coax
dielectric constant. I once helped design the AN/SRD-21 homing
direction finder
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/AN-SRD-21/>
where two lengths of 150ft of RG-58c/u had to be phase matched to less
than 1 degree at VHF frequencies (121.5 and 156-163MHz). I made the
capital mistake of assuming the consistency of the coax cable over
such long lengths. I eventually got it right, but it wasn't easy.
That was at 150 MHz and I don't want to even think about what it would
take to match coax cables at 77 GHz.

The prototype might not be cheap, but the unit price would depend
on production volume, and cars are made in high volume.

The prototype is never cheap. Yes, high volume would reduce cost.
However, it's cheaper to just etch the interconnecting antenna cables
onto a PCB and find tune it with phase shifters on the RADAR chip. For
example, how does $0.10 per PCB in volume quantities sound?
<https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/77G-Antenna-PCB-PCBA-Electronic-pcba_60746142942.html>
Nice of JYCPCB to post their customers products for public inspection
and dissection. Can you beat $0.10 per PCB with coax cables in any
volume level? I don't think so.

Incidentally, the antennas in the above photo are arranged as 4
transmit and 3 receive channels. The upper antennas are receive,
while the lower are transmit. The reflected receive signal is weaker
than the transmit signal and therefore requires a larger antenna with
more gain. When installed in the automobile, the PCB is mounted
vertically, with the "tips" of the antennas pointed upward. There is
probably a ground plane reflector buried in the PCB or mounted behind
the PCB to give additional gain and isolation. Here's one such
antenna for 2.4GHz:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/antennas/tecom/index.html>

More 77 GHz antennas:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=77+ghz+antenna&tbm=isch>
I don't see any coaxial cables.

So, where's the magic? In my limited experience, it's in the final
tweaking of the antenna design and layout after the computer
simulations have done their best at getting it close. However, close
is not good enough and tweaking is usually required. When the
prototypes arrive, more tweaking. When the boards hit production,
even more tweaking. The magic is knowing what to and where to tweak.

It's not enough to rub the magic lantern and wait for the genie to
provide the answers. You sometimes have to sniff the lantern fumes
and provide the answers yourself.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:07:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77 GHz.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar
That's my next target after 50 GHz.

I thought you were looking for coaxial cable that needed to pass DC to
50GHz. Automotive radar lives at 76 to 81 GHz where the transmission
lines do not need to pass lower frequencies. So, 77 GHz waveguide
(WR12) and coax transitions should work.

Mix it down very close (1-10 cm) to the probe tip with a 75 GHz local
oscillator (LO) so you can use coaxial cables to carry a few GHz
signal to the actual instrument.

https://www.everythingrf.com/tech-resources/waveguides-sizes/wr12
From what I've seen from Ti, there isn't any coax or waveguide being
used except in test fixtures and maybe evaluation boards.
http://www.ti.com/product/AWR1642
http://www.ti.com/tool/AWR1642BOOST?jktype=tools_software
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=AWR1642
All the RF is on the same PCB as the antenna array with microstrip
transmission lines. However, the array is used for beam forming and
steering, where all the transmission lines between the RF sources and
antennas must be phase matched. The built in calibration helps reduce
the phase matching problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Phase matching
is possible on a PCB or machined metal substrate, but far more
difficult and expensive for individual coax cables or waveguides at
the level of precision needed.

Use multiple mixer with a common local oscillator and use multiple
coaxial cables. If the LO path length to individual mixers are made
slightly variable, it can be used to compensate for the variations in
the signal path.

77GHz = 3.9mm wavelength
where 1 degree = 0.01 mm = 10 micrometers or microns
Therefore, I don't think you'll see any coax cables running at 77 GHz
in auto radar products.

Reminder: RF is magic.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+11, mpm wrote:

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 10:22:38 PM UTC-5, Bill Sloman wrote:
Somebody who wanted a transmission line section whose length could be smoothly varied over 3.9mm with a resolution of better than 10 microns could get one made if they had access to sufficiently skillful and ingenious mechanical engineers and decent machine tools. The prototype might not be cheap, but the unit price would depend on production volume, and cars are made in high volume.


I don't think you'd need Arthur Clarke for that...
Just (very precisely) control the temperature.
Problem solved.

I mean, once you got it close.

IIRR the HP laser interferometer used that technique to keep the length of it's laser tube exactly right - the wavelength of the laser light was some 632.8 nm (and I used to know it to ten digits) and if it moved much the laser would be resonant at a slightly different wavelength.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Steve Wilson]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77 GHz.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar
That's my next target after 50 GHz.

I thought you were looking for coaxial cable that needed to pass DC to
50GHz. Automotive radar lives at 76 to 81 GHz where the transmission
lines do not need to pass lower frequencies. So, 77 GHz waveguide
(WR12) and coax transitions should work.
https://www.everythingrf.com/tech-resources/waveguides-sizes/wr12
From what I've seen from Ti, there isn't any coax or waveguide being
used except in test fixtures and maybe evaluation boards.
http://www.ti.com/product/AWR1642
http://www.ti.com/tool/AWR1642BOOST?jktype=tools_software
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=AWR1642
All the RF is on the same PCB as the antenna array with microstrip
transmission lines. However, the array is used for beam forming and
steering, where all the transmission lines between the RF sources and
antennas must be phase matched. The built in calibration helps reduce
the phase matching problem, but doesn't eliminate it. Phase matching
is possible on a PCB or machined metal substrate, but far more
difficult and expensive for individual coax cables or waveguides at
the level of precision needed.
77GHz = 3.9mm wavelength
where 1 degree = 0.01 mm = 10 micrometers or microns
Therefore, I don't think you'll see any coax cables running at 77 GHz
in auto radar products.

Very good info. Thanks.

My interest is in test fixtures where I definitely need coax. 50 GHz
is just a stepping stone.

I'm interested in broadband DC to 80 GHz. I think I've come across
some VNA's and spectrum analyzers that can do that (except for DC).

The Rohde & Schwarz R&SŽZVA 110 VNA uses 1mm coax and does 10 MHz
to 110 GHz:

https://tinyurl.com/uzsyule

> Reminder: RF is magic.

It just takes money.
So do corporate jets.

 

[Steve Wilson]

"John Miles, KE5FX" <jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:44:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:
One of the least expensive I have found is CentricRF at $150:

https://tinyurl.com/sveffcr

Seems like a good deal, except for the part about being 4 inches long.


What's the solution?

For the cables, you could search on eBay for the specific HP part # that
has the fittings you want. E.g., one good part number I use with an
8517B / 8510C is 85134-60003. These are convenient because the 3.5mm
hardware at the other end will mate with an SMA F-F barrel.

On my 70820A I use 2.4mm / 3.5mm adapters. $100 will get you
good-quality adapters from various sellers. If you insist on a 50
GHz-rated cable, as opposed to adapters that you can "get by" with, it
may hard to find anything new or used for less than a kilobuck.

-- john, KE5FX

I found a new source for 50 GHz cables. Thor Labs:

TMM4 Microwave Cable, 4" (102 mm) $100.79

TMM8 Microwave Cable, 8" (203 mm) $111.39

TMM12 Microwave Cable, 12" (305 mm) $122.00

TMM24 Microwave Cable, 24" (610 mm) $153.83

TMM36 Microwave Cable, 36" (914 mm) $185.66

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_ID=9827#9832

Datasheet
https://tinyurl.com/uk3m45q

With prices like these, it doesn't make sense to buy used cables on eBay.
You have no idea if the cable has been damaged, or the connectors have
been abused.

Another problem is overtorquing the connectors. Brass needs 6 inch-oz, and
stainless needs 8 inch-oz. The torque wrenches run $218.59 at Thor Labs:

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_ID=9827#10542

If you need both, you are in for $437.18. That's expensive.

I found a supplier for a torque wrench for 2.4mm coax that is adjustable
and can do both for US $19.71. Search eBay for item number 123971832152.

Calibrating a torque gauge is trivial. There are many methods. See

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=calibrating+torque+wrench

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com>
wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:30:19 -0800 (PST), "John Miles, KE5FX"
jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:44:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:
One of the least expensive I have found is CentricRF at $150:

https://tinyurl.com/sveffcr

Seems like a good deal, except for the part about being 4 inches long.

A 50 GHz signal won't travel far over coax!

Crystek claims <1.44 dB/ft at 50 GHz:

https://www.crystek.com/microwave/spec-sheets/rfcable/150.pdf

Fortunately the 50 GHz runs are probably short.

I've wondered how useful a 100 GHz sampling oscilloscope can be. It's
hard to get a signal to it.

Probably bragging rights. The cables and connectors will cost a fortune.

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77 GHz.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar

That's my next target after 50 GHz.

BTW, I found another source of 50 GHz cable. Thor Labs is now the cheapest
vendor:

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_ID=9827

The big market for 100 GHz scopes is probably telecom, so the input
would be optical fiber. Bang it with a femtosecond optical pulse, get
the impulse response, and synthesize a digital filter to clean up the
step response.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Steve Wilson]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:30:19 -0800 (PST), "John Miles, KE5FX"
jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:44:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson
wrote:
One of the least expensive I have found is CentricRF at $150:

https://tinyurl.com/sveffcr

Seems like a good deal, except for the part about being 4 inches long.

A 50 GHz signal won't travel far over coax!

Crystek claims <1.44 dB/ft at 50 GHz:

https://www.crystek.com/microwave/spec-sheets/rfcable/150.pdf

Fortunately the 50 GHz runs are probably short.

I've wondered how useful a 100 GHz sampling oscilloscope can be. It's
hard to get a signal to it.

Probably bragging rights. The cables and connectors will cost a fortune.

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77
GHz.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar

That's my next target after 50 GHz.

BTW, I found another source of 50 GHz cable. Thor Labs is now the
cheapest vendor:

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_ID=9827

The big market for 100 GHz scopes is probably telecom, so the input
would be optical fiber. Bang it with a femtosecond optical pulse, get
the impulse response, and synthesize a digital filter to clean up the
step response.

All it takes is money.

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/labmaster-10zi-a-datasheet.pdf

They do have a 1mm 100 Ghz coax input. see page 21

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 19:32:25 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com>
wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:30:19 -0800 (PST), "John Miles, KE5FX"
jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:44:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson
wrote:
One of the least expensive I have found is CentricRF at $150:

https://tinyurl.com/sveffcr

Seems like a good deal, except for the part about being 4 inches long.

A 50 GHz signal won't travel far over coax!

Crystek claims <1.44 dB/ft at 50 GHz:

https://www.crystek.com/microwave/spec-sheets/rfcable/150.pdf

Fortunately the 50 GHz runs are probably short.

I've wondered how useful a 100 GHz sampling oscilloscope can be. It's
hard to get a signal to it.

Probably bragging rights. The cables and connectors will cost a fortune.

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77
GHz.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar

That's my next target after 50 GHz.

BTW, I found another source of 50 GHz cable. Thor Labs is now the
cheapest vendor:

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_ID=9827

The big market for 100 GHz scopes is probably telecom, so the input
would be optical fiber. Bang it with a femtosecond optical pulse, get
the impulse response, and synthesize a digital filter to clean up the
step response.

All it takes is money.

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/labmaster-10zi-a-datasheet.pdf

They do have a 1mm 100 Ghz coax input. see page 21

The people designing internet backbone gear, or cell towers for 5G,
can afford megabuck scopes.

Rigol is up to 2 GHz now. I remember when a 30 MHz scope cost as much
as a new Ford, and a sampling head cost a new Jaguar.

Funny: I googled Rigol oscilloscope and the first thing I saw was an
ad by Tek.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Steve Wilson]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

Rigol is up to 2 GHz now. I remember when a 30 MHz scope cost as much
as a new Ford, and a sampling head cost a new Jaguar.

You are right. The Tektronix 547 50 MHz scope cost $2,500 in 1968:

https://www.tek.com/blog/comparing-apollo-era-workhorse-today%E2%80%99s-
bench-scope

The average price of a new car was $2,822:

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1968.html

I was at MIT playing with Tek 453 scopes:

http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/453

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 07:44:14 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com>
wrote:

I don't need Metrology Grade or Instrument Grade, but vendors rarely tell you
what grade they are offering.

What's the solution?

Pretty obvious, really: don't exceed 30Mhz.
--

No deal? No problem! :-D

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com>
wrote:

My interest is in test fixtures where I definitely need coax. 50 GHz
is just a stepping stone.

More like a stumbling block. You're likely to have a difficult time
keeping up as the FCC moves from auctioning off everything in sight to
auctioning off bands that are well out of sight. Are you ready for
3THz? Don't worry, because nobody else is either:
"FCC opens 95GHz to 3THz spectrum for ‘6G, 7G, or whatever’ is next"
<https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/15/fcc-opens-95ghz-to-3thz-spectrum-for-6g-7g-or-whatever-is-next/>
300GHz to 3THz signals are at or under 1 millimeter
in wavelength, and for that reason called "submillimeter waves."
I guess the article author, the FCC, or both don't know about
micrometer and nanometer wavelengths.

I'm interested in broadband DC to 80 GHz. I think I've come across
some VNA's and spectrum analyzers that can do that (except for DC).

The Rohde & Schwarz R&SŽZVA 110 VNA uses 1mm coax and does 10 MHz
to 110 GHz:
https://tinyurl.com/uzsyule

<https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/pt/product/zva-productstartpage_63493-9660.html>
Only $17,885 to start.

Notice that both RF heads in the cover photo have a length of
waveguide exposed. I couldn't find a block diagram of the R&S ZVA 110
VNA, so I don't really know what the waveguide is doing. My wild
guess(tm) is that they are down-converters similar to:
<https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/zvaz-productstartpage_63493-10282.html>
Click on the "models" tab. 50-75GHz and 75-110GHz which might explain
why the photo shows to RF heads.

Looks like the ZVA 110 also comes in various frequency ranges:
<https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/pt/products/test-and-measurement/network-analyzers/high-end-network-analyzers_229190.html>
R&S ZVA 8: 300 kHz to 8 GHz
R&S ZVA 24: 10 MHz to 24 GHz
R&S ZVA 40: 10 MHz to 40 GHz
R&S ZVA 50: 10 MHz to 50 GHz
R&S ZVA 67: 10 MHz to 67 GHz
R&S ZVA 110: 10 MHz to 110 GHz
Looks like "DC" is 10 MHz for this product and that you're not going
to see DC to light in one giant sweep via one 1mm coax cable. I'm not
sure, but I think you'll need to change RF heads (down-converters).
Looking at the different models, my guess(tm) is that the basic VNA
has 8 GHz bandwidth, and everything else is downconvereted in 8 GHz
blocks. Just a guess(tm).

Reminder: RF is magic.

It just takes money.
So do corporate jets.

Agreed. I worked for a few companies in the past, who failed to
appreciate the value of decent test equipment. I had a difficult time
getting a management to sign off on purchasing a spectrum analyzer.
Borrowing one from production was becoming rather awkward. So, I
built a life size cardboard model of the spectrum analyzer that I
wanted and covered the front and sides of the box with enlarged color
photos of the real unit. With probes, power cords, and a few flashing
LED's, I conspicuously planted it on my lab workbench and waited for
management to notice.

Nothing happened for about a week when the "suits" suddenly arrived.
There was some discussion for about 15 minutes, after which everyone
simply left. I thought I had failed, when the VP of engineering
arrived with a blank purchase order request form and demanded that I
drop everything and fill it out before he changes his mind. The
spectrum analyzer arrived about 3 weeks later.

Money is nice, especially when supported by self-promotion, corporate
politics, and of course, magic.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 8:19:21 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 07:44:14 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

I don't need Metrology Grade or Instrument Grade, but vendors rarely tell you
what grade they are offering.

What's the solution?

Pretty obvious, really: don't exceed 30Mhz.

That's what mathematicians call a trivial solution.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

fredag den 24. januar 2020 kl. 20.50.05 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 19:32:25 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:23:18 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:30:19 -0800 (PST), "John Miles, KE5FX"
jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:44:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson
wrote:
One of the least expensive I have found is CentricRF at $150:

https://tinyurl.com/sveffcr

Seems like a good deal, except for the part about being 4 inches long.

A 50 GHz signal won't travel far over coax!

Crystek claims <1.44 dB/ft at 50 GHz:

https://www.crystek.com/microwave/spec-sheets/rfcable/150.pdf

Fortunately the 50 GHz runs are probably short.

I've wondered how useful a 100 GHz sampling oscilloscope can be. It's
hard to get a signal to it.

Probably bragging rights. The cables and connectors will cost a fortune.

Another potentially huge market is automobile Long Range Radar at 77
GHz.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/automotive-radar

That's my next target after 50 GHz.

BTW, I found another source of 50 GHz cable. Thor Labs is now the
cheapest vendor:

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_ID=9827

The big market for 100 GHz scopes is probably telecom, so the input
would be optical fiber. Bang it with a femtosecond optical pulse, get
the impulse response, and synthesize a digital filter to clean up the
step response.

All it takes is money.

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/labmaster-10zi-a-datasheet.pdf

They do have a 1mm 100 Ghz coax input. see page 21


The people designing internet backbone gear, or cell towers for 5G,
can afford megabuck scopes.

Rigol is up to 2 GHz now. I remember when a 30 MHz scope cost as much
as a new Ford, and a sampling head cost a new Jaguar.

https://youtu.be/DXYje2B04xE

110GHz BW, 256GS/s, $1.3 Million US dollars

 

[George Herold]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 8:38:02 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:30:19 -0800 (PST), "John Miles, KE5FX"
jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 11:44:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:
One of the least expensive I have found is CentricRF at $150:

https://tinyurl.com/sveffcr

Seems like a good deal, except for the part about being 4 inches long.

A 50 GHz signal won't travel far over coax!

My only experience in the > 1GHz range involved waveguide..
mostly Ku band (13 GHz) a little Ka...the Ka stuff was
smaller and cuter. I don't see much waveguide these days...

George H.

I've wondered how useful a 100 GHz sampling oscilloscope can be. It's
hard to get a signal to it.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Steve Wilson]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 24. januar 2020 kl. 20.50.05 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

Rigol is up to 2 GHz now. I remember when a 30 MHz scope cost as much
as a new Ford, and a sampling head cost a new Jaguar.

https://youtu.be/DXYje2B04xE

110GHz BW, 256GS/s, $1.3 Million US dollars

Mindreader! I have been looking for that exact video, but I would never
have found it. I was looking in the eevblog forum instead of TSP. Many
thanks.

Related:

Infiniium UXR-Series Datasheet:

https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/7018-06242/data-sheets/5992-3132.pdf

TSP #45 - Experiments & Teardown of the Teledyne-LeCroy LabMaster 10-100zi
100GHz Oscilloscope, $1 Million, Feb 9, 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3w_EWgGQuk

Labmaster 10-100zi Datasheet:

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/labmaster-10zi-a-datasheet.pdf

Anritsu Introduces 145 and 170 GHz Spectrum Master Ultraportable
Spectrum Analyzers to Address Emerging Millimeter-wave Applications:

https://www.anritsu.com/en-US/test-measurement/news/news-
releases/2019/2019-09-24-us02

Bandwidths are rising. We need scopes that can keep up.

 

[Steve Wilson]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:20:42 -0000 (UTC), Steve Wilson <no@spam.com
wrote:
My interest is in test fixtures where I definitely need coax. 50 GHz is
just a stepping stone.

More like a stumbling block. You're likely to have a difficult time
keeping up as the FCC moves from auctioning off everything in sight to
auctioning off bands that are well out of sight. Are you ready for
3THz? Don't worry, because nobody else is either:
"FCC opens 95GHz to 3THz spectrum for ‘6G, 7G, or whatever’ is next"
https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/15/fcc-opens-95ghz-to-3thz-spectrum-for-
6g-7g-or-whatever-is-next/
300GHz to 3THz signals are at or under 1 millimeter
in wavelength, and for that reason called "submillimeter waves."
I guess the article author, the FCC, or both don't know about
micrometer and nanometer wavelengths.

I'm interested in broadband DC to 80 GHz. I think I've come across
some VNA's and spectrum analyzers that can do that (except for DC).

The Rohde & Schwarz R&SŽZVA 110 VNA uses 1mm coax and does 10 MHz
to 110 GHz:
https://tinyurl.com/uzsyule

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/pt/product/zva-productstartpage_63493-9660
.html> Only $17,885 to start.

Notice that both RF heads in the cover photo have a length of
waveguide exposed. I couldn't find a block diagram of the R&S ZVA 110
VNA, so I don't really know what the waveguide is doing. My wild
guess(tm) is that they are down-converters similar to:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/zvaz-productstartpage_63493-102
82.html> Click on the "models" tab. 50-75GHz and 75-110GHz which might
explain why the photo shows to RF heads.

Looks like the ZVA 110 also comes in various frequency ranges:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/pt/products/test-and-measurement/network-a
nalyzers/high-end-network-analyzers_229190.html
R&S ZVA 8: 300 kHz to 8 GHz
R&S ZVA 24: 10 MHz to 24 GHz
R&S ZVA 40: 10 MHz to 40 GHz
R&S ZVA 50: 10 MHz to 50 GHz
R&S ZVA 67: 10 MHz to 67 GHz
R&S ZVA 110: 10 MHz to 110 GHz
Looks like "DC" is 10 MHz for this product and that you're not going
to see DC to light in one giant sweep via one 1mm coax cable. I'm not
sure, but I think you'll need to change RF heads (down-converters).
Looking at the different models, my guess(tm) is that the basic VNA
has 8 GHz bandwidth, and everything else is downconvereted in 8 GHz
blocks. Just a guess(tm).

Reminder: RF is magic.

It just takes money.
So do corporate jets.

Agreed. I worked for a few companies in the past, who failed to
appreciate the value of decent test equipment. I had a difficult time
getting a management to sign off on purchasing a spectrum analyzer.
Borrowing one from production was becoming rather awkward. So, I
built a life size cardboard model of the spectrum analyzer that I
wanted and covered the front and sides of the box with enlarged color
photos of the real unit. With probes, power cords, and a few flashing
LED's, I conspicuously planted it on my lab workbench and waited for
management to notice.

Nothing happened for about a week when the "suits" suddenly arrived.
There was some discussion for about 15 minutes, after which everyone
simply left. I thought I had failed, when the VP of engineering
arrived with a blank purchase order request form and demanded that I
drop everything and fill it out before he changes his mind. The
spectrum analyzer arrived about 3 weeks later.

Money is nice, especially when supported by self-promotion, corporate
politics, and of course, magic.

LOL! Thanks.