(10) Technologies That Deserve To Die

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Chuck Harris wrote:

The question better asked is: Why is there so much
heat build up?

I have left my IDEK Iiyama 21" monitor on 24/7 since
1992. It still works very nicely.

-Chuck Harris


Some monitors are designed for better airflow, and use parts rated
for higher temperatures. Electrolytics are rated for "X" number of hours
operating at "Y" temperature. So, the more that it is on, the more heat
damage occurs. Take a look at any of the capacitor manufacturers
websites Vishay, CDE, or dozens of others, and you will see at least
three temperature ranges: 85°C 105°C 125°C. Using a higher temperature
part extends the life of monitor, or other equipment. Also, some use
more low ESR parts, which hold up better in some applications. Some are
too cheap to use high frequency rated parts, causing more internal
heating of the electrolyte. This slowly boils away the liquid, which
causes the ESR to rise, and causes more internal heat. Finally, the
capacitor either has too high of an ESR, or the capacitance has dropped
too low to work properly.
Click to expand...
Or probably the worst offense: locating the caps next to a heatsink or
power resistor, etc. Like poor design.


--
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###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
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Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
I speak only for myself, no one else, & they're my opinions
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On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:44:30 -0800, the renowned "Watson A.Name \"Watt
Sun - the Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

Or probably the worst offense: locating the caps next to a heatsink or
power resistor, etc. Like poor design.
Click to expand...
There's often a trade-off between thermal and electrical design...

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:44:30 -0800, the renowned "Watson A.Name \"Watt
Sun - the Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:


Or probably the worst offense: locating the caps next to a heatsink or
power resistor, etc. Like poor design.


There's often a trade-off between thermal and electrical design...
Click to expand...
No doubt. Y'ever notice how the SMPSes have an area that seems to be
separated from the rest of the circuits, mainly because it has the
rectified AC line current on the incoming side. So the filter caps have
to isolated from the rest of the circuit. I guess the point is that the
designers are forced to place components in a certain area because of
high voltage testing requirements and the like.

Another oddity is that some SMPSes have a fan controller circuit, which
turns on the fan when it gets hot. Well, why doesn't the fan always
stay on so it _never_ gets hot? That way, the components last longer!
Yeah, sure it's noisier..

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Click to expand...

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
I speak only for myself, no one else, & they're my opinions
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:07:22 -0800, the renowned "Watson A.Name \"Watt
Sun - the Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Another oddity is that some SMPSes have a fan controller circuit, which
turns on the fan when it gets hot. Well, why doesn't the fan always
stay on so it _never_ gets hot? That way, the components last longer!
Yeah, sure it's noisier..
Click to expand...
Aside from the noise, the e-caps and the fan are the two main parts
that "wear out", but yes, that's another trade-off- noise vs. life. Or
the variable-speed fans so that the life is constant no matter how
cool the environment. ;-)

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 
Hi Watson,

I'll let you in on a secret: I have made thousands of dollars
fixing high end switching powersupplies, such as the Lambda's that
put out 5V, 500A. In every case, all I had to do was repack the
ball bearings on the fan motors. The bearings would gum up, and the
fans would slow, and the motor would send a fault signal to the
powersupply controller board, so the 5V would quit.

The moral of the story is the fans are the least reliable part of
any powersupply... particularily 12V DC muffin fans.

-Chuck

Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover" wrote:
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:44:30 -0800, the renowned "Watson A.Name \"Watt
Sun - the Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:


Or probably the worst offense: locating the caps next to a heatsink
or power resistor, etc. Like poor design.



There's often a trade-off between thermal and electrical design...


No doubt. Y'ever notice how the SMPSes have an area that seems to be
separated from the rest of the circuits, mainly because it has the
rectified AC line current on the incoming side. So the filter caps have
to isolated from the rest of the circuit. I guess the point is that the
designers are forced to place components in a certain area because of
high voltage testing requirements and the like.

Another oddity is that some SMPSes have a fan controller circuit, which
turns on the fan when it gets hot. Well, why doesn't the fan always
stay on so it _never_ gets hot? That way, the components last longer!
Yeah, sure it's noisier..

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
Click to expand...
 
In article <bnsgig$pta$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, cfharris@erols.com
mentioned...
Hi Watson,

I'll let you in on a secret: I have made thousands of dollars
fixing high end switching powersupplies, such as the Lambda's that
put out 5V, 500A. In every case, all I had to do was repack the
ball bearings on the fan motors. The bearings would gum up, and the
fans would slow, and the motor would send a fault signal to the
powersupply controller board, so the 5V would quit.

The moral of the story is the fans are the least reliable part of
any powersupply... particularily 12V DC muffin fans.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they don't make them like they used to. Seems like older fans
used bearings, etc, that lasted a lot longer than today's fans. I've
seen aquirrel cage fans run for many years, maybe a decade.

We have a bunch of new Crisco switches with the dual PSes, etc. The
old 3Com fans used to gum up and a few weeks later the PSes died. I
wonder how long the new stuff is going to last.

-Chuck

Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover" wrote:
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:44:30 -0800, the renowned "Watson A.Name \"Watt
Sun - the Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:


Or probably the worst offense: locating the caps next to a heatsink
or power resistor, etc. Like poor design.



There's often a trade-off between thermal and electrical design...


No doubt. Y'ever notice how the SMPSes have an area that seems to be
separated from the rest of the circuits, mainly because it has the
rectified AC line current on the incoming side. So the filter caps have
to isolated from the rest of the circuit. I guess the point is that the
designers are forced to place components in a certain area because of
high voltage testing requirements and the like.

Another oddity is that some SMPSes have a fan controller circuit, which
turns on the fan when it gets hot. Well, why doesn't the fan always
stay on so it _never_ gets hot? That way, the components last longer!
Yeah, sure it's noisier..

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
Click to expand...

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
The other thing that kept the older fans a running was the motors
that were grossly oversized for the job. The newer fans are part
of the powersupply efficiency rating, and are sized to be as low
power as possible. Any amount of bearing drag more than new, and
the motors slow and stop.

-Chuck

Watson A.Name - Watt Sun, Dark Remover wrote:
In article <bnsgig$pta$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, cfharris@erols.com


Yeah, they don't make them like they used to. Seems like older fans
used bearings, etc, that lasted a lot longer than today's fans. I've
seen aquirrel cage fans run for many years, maybe a decade.

We have a bunch of new Crisco switches with the dual PSes, etc. The
old 3Com fans used to gum up and a few weeks later the PSes died. I
wonder how long the new stuff is going to last.


-Chuck
Click to expand...
 
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:46:08 -0500, "Lewin A.R.W. Edwards"
<larwe@larwe.com> Gave us:

The lag of an LCD refresh makes it impossible for movies or games
where the image moves about a lot.

?? What particular kind of crack are you smoking, or rather what kind of LCD
controllers are you using? I watch movies (and play games, for that matter)
on banks of LCD monitors all the time.
Click to expand...

And all at no higher than 60Hz most likely. And they DO have a
persistence issue, whether YOU see it or not.

I suppose the newer 75Hz models might be bit better, but, I like a
good, crisp, huge CRT flat face monitor for my CAD work, as well as
for games.
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:08:12 -0500, JW <none@dev.nul> Gave us:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:46:08 -0500 "Lewin A.R.W. Edwards"
larwe@larwe.com> wrote in Message id:
EEidnWmzKYd8YQKiU-KYiw@broadviewnet.net>:

The lag of an LCD refresh makes it impossible for movies or games
where the image moves about a lot.

?? What particular kind of crack are you smoking

Any kind DarkSplatter can get his grubby hands on, I'd say.
Click to expand...
You're a goddamned idiot.
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:14:38 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com>
Gave us:

Hi Watson,

I'll let you in on a secret: I have made thousands of dollars
fixing high end switching powersupplies, such as the Lambda's that
put out 5V, 500A. In every case, all I had to do was repack the
ball bearings on the fan motors. The bearings would gum up, and the
fans would slow, and the motor would send a fault signal to the
powersupply controller board, so the 5V would quit.

The moral of the story is the fans are the least reliable part of
any powersupply... particularily 12V DC muffin fans.

-Chuck
Click to expand...

At least, the ones that Lambda used... Apparently.
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:27:47 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com>
Gave us:

The other thing that kept the older fans a running was the motors
that were grossly oversized for the job. The newer fans are part
of the powersupply efficiency rating, and are sized to be as low
power as possible.
Click to expand...
Naaah... The fans used in small environmental chambers last
virtually forever.
 
That would be so if Lambda was the only supply where I saw
12V fan problems, but it isn't. I have also run into it in the
little fans that live in PC power supplies. Only, they are
typically sleeve, rather than ball bearings.

-Chuck

DarkMatter wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:14:38 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com
Gave us:


Hi Watson,

I'll let you in on a secret: I have made thousands of dollars
fixing high end switching powersupplies, such as the Lambda's that
put out 5V, 500A. In every case, all I had to do was repack the
ball bearings on the fan motors. The bearings would gum up, and the
fans would slow, and the motor would send a fault signal to the
powersupply controller board, so the 5V would quit.

The moral of the story is the fans are the least reliable part of
any powersupply... particularily 12V DC muffin fans.

-Chuck



At least, the ones that Lambda used... Apparently.
Click to expand...
 
And that says what??

-Chuck

DarkMatter wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:27:47 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com
Gave us:


The other thing that kept the older fans a running was the motors
that were grossly oversized for the job. The newer fans are part
of the powersupply efficiency rating, and are sized to be as low
power as possible.


Naaah... The fans used in small environmental chambers last
virtually forever.
Click to expand...
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:56:09 -0800 DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in Message id:
<rqq3qv06u7g62n3cjk4th7u6dsmij3ulja@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:08:12 -0500, JW <none@dev.nul> Gave us:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:46:08 -0500 "Lewin A.R.W. Edwards"
larwe@larwe.com> wrote in Message id:
EEidnWmzKYd8YQKiU-KYiw@broadviewnet.net>:

The lag of an LCD refresh makes it impossible for movies or games
where the image moves about a lot.

?? What particular kind of crack are you smoking

Any kind DarkSplatter can get his grubby hands on, I'd say.

You're a goddamned idiot.
Click to expand...
You're a repetitive little monkey.
 
controllers are you using? I watch movies (and play games, for that
matter)
on banks of LCD monitors all the time.


And all at no higher than 60Hz most likely. And they DO have a
Click to expand...
Now tell me, what kind of movie content are you obtaining that has a
framerate faster than 60Hz?

BTW, checking my monitor info, I see that I'm running at 74Hz. The physical
framerate of the LCD isn't rated, but I do not see motion artifacts of any
kind.

--
-- Lewin A.R.W. Edwards (http://www.zws.com/)
Learn how to develop high-end embedded systems on a tight budget!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0750676094/zws-20
 
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:31:32 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:46:08 -0500, "Lewin A.R.W. Edwards"
larwe@larwe.com> Gave us:

The lag of an LCD refresh makes it impossible for movies or games
where the image moves about a lot.

?? What particular kind of crack are you smoking, or rather what kind of LCD
controllers are you using? I watch movies (and play games, for that matter)
on banks of LCD monitors all the time.


And all at no higher than 60Hz most likely. And they DO have a
persistence issue, whether YOU see it or not.

I suppose the newer 75Hz models might be bit better, but, I like a
good, crisp, huge CRT flat face monitor for my CAD work, as well as
for games.
Click to expand...
I have a 20.1" NEC with a 75 refresh rate .. no lag there .. great
for video editing!! It is a pivot, so I can use it in either
landscape or portrait orientation (which is great as is displays the
whole page when composing brochures and the like!) (software is 35
bucks to make it work) As to crisp , how does 1280 x 1024 grab ya
(default setting)
 
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:26:49 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com>
Gave us:

That would be so if Lambda was the only supply where I saw
12V fan problems, but it isn't. I have also run into it in the
little fans that live in PC power supplies. Only, they are
typically sleeve, rather than ball bearings.

-Chuck
Click to expand...

There are fans, and then there are fans.

We make rack products that utilize fans and filters and they last
for years, just like a good ol' Tek scope or HP scope or analyser.

It all comes down to getting what one pays for. There are superior
brands, and even models within a brand name that is good, that get
economized, and thus fail sooner.

If Lambda bought a cheaper fan, they would have suffered for it in
field failure numbers being high. From your input, they did.

I have seen products whose fans never failed during the life span of
the product itself.

I don't economize on air handling. When fans are called for, there
is usually some heat that needs to be carried away. They, being
mechanical, need to be as reliable as possible. Brand does matter as
well.
 
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:28:06 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com>
Gave us:

And that says what??
Click to expand...
That there ARE reliable fans to be had.
 
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:50:51 -0500, JW <none@dev.nul> Gave us:


You're a repetitive little monkey.
Click to expand...

I got nine inches of "repetitive little monkey" for your lame ass,
little girl.
 
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:55:44 -0500, "Lewin A.R.W. Edwards"
<larwe@larwe.com> Gave us:

Now tell me, what kind of movie content are you obtaining that has a
framerate faster than 60Hz?
Click to expand...

You don't know much about displays.

They spent ten years getting refresh rates up, and your lame ass is
thinking in the stone age if you think 60Hz is OK, particularly for
CAD or gaming.

Much less Putting up a DVD presentation, windowed.
 
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