XOR at 12V and a few amps.

John Fields · Sep 29, 2012

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:09:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:53:40 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:57:06 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

Since Toyota's have been described as "5-wire", I presume that's...

Brake Left Brake Right
Turn Left Turn Right
Ground

So each side is independent and "Turn" (flashing) trumps "Brake"
(steady).

...Jim Thompson
---
Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

Are both "Brake" lamp circuits wired together?

---
Like in parallel?

If they were, and a single lamp were to be used for both the brake and
flash functions, it'd be pretty tough to separate the directional and
brake signals George H asked for.

--
JF

Jamie · Sep 29, 2012

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:27:12 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:16:54 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

[snip]

Since Toyota's have been described as "5-wire", I presume that's...

Brake Left Brake Right
Turn Left Turn Right
Ground

So each side is independent and "Turn" (flashing) trumps "Brake"
(steady).

...Jim Thompson

---
Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

Are both "Brake" lamp circuits wired together? I have a wiring
diagram for my Q45... I guess I should open the manual and see how
Infiniti does it.

...Jim Thompson

Booboos. We fret over brake and turn, but what about tail/running
lights?

...Jim Thompson

---
There's no requirement for them to be included.

Around her, in Arizona-land, you're required to have at least one
"running" light or a "flag" ;-)

I'm wondering if "5-wire" isn't actually...

Running
Brake
Left Turn
Right Turn
Ground

...Jim Thompson

I found this...

http://tinyurl.com/44m6pmu

...Jim Thompson
Right, something I stated way back at the start of this tread and I

took that from memory.

So, it is true then, if it's on the internet it must be true
otherwise beware of information coming elsewhere.

Jamie

John Fields · Sep 29, 2012

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 17:05:31 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:27:12 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:16:54 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

[snip]

Since Toyota's have been described as "5-wire", I presume that's...

Brake Left Brake Right
Turn Left Turn Right
Ground

So each side is independent and "Turn" (flashing) trumps "Brake"
(steady).

...Jim Thompson

---
Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

Are both "Brake" lamp circuits wired together? I have a wiring
diagram for my Q45... I guess I should open the manual and see how
Infiniti does it.

...Jim Thompson

Booboos. We fret over brake and turn, but what about tail/running
lights?

...Jim Thompson

---
There's no requirement for them to be included.

Around her, in Arizona-land, you're required to have at least one
"running" light or a "flag" ;-)

I'm wondering if "5-wire" isn't actually...

Running
Brake
Left Turn
Right Turn
Ground

...Jim Thompson

I found this...

http://tinyurl.com/44m6pmu

...Jim Thompson
Right, something I stated way back at the start of this tread and I
took that from memory.

So, it is true then, if it's on the internet it must be true
otherwise beware of information coming elsewhere.

Jamie

---
Do neither of you have a clue?

The OP asked for steady brake lights when the brake pedal was pressed,
unless a directional signal was invoked, at which time the directional
signal would override the brake signal and flash the directional lamp
on that channel.

---
What have either of you done to bring his request to fruition?

--
JF

Jim Thompson · Sep 29, 2012

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:03:59 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:09:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:53:40 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:57:06 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

Since Toyota's have been described as "5-wire", I presume that's...

Brake Left Brake Right
Turn Left Turn Right
Ground

So each side is independent and "Turn" (flashing) trumps "Brake"
(steady).

...Jim Thompson
---
Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

Are both "Brake" lamp circuits wired together?

---
Like in parallel?

If they were, and a single lamp were to be used for both the brake and
flash functions, it'd be pretty tough to separate the directional and
brake signals George H asked for.

Separate brake lamps and turn lamps... or like I just saw in
traffic... looked like simply different current drives to the same
LED's for running and brake/turn, so a "trailer kit" gets a bit more
complex. My suspicion being that you'll need to order up your new car
with a towing kit that includes an interface to "old style".

Take a peek at this...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/ParkingLicense&TailLights_Schematic.pdf

This was followed by 10 pages of diagnostics.

Keep in mind, this is a 7 year-old car!

Just have a nightmare about what newer vehicles must have in them.

Now draw me up a trailer adapter

Jim Thompson · Sep 29, 2012

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:54:28 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 17:05:31 -0400, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:27:12 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:16:54 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

[snip]

Since Toyota's have been described as "5-wire", I presume that's...

Brake Left Brake Right
Turn Left Turn Right
Ground

So each side is independent and "Turn" (flashing) trumps "Brake"
(steady).

...Jim Thompson

---
Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

Are both "Brake" lamp circuits wired together? I have a wiring
diagram for my Q45... I guess I should open the manual and see how
Infiniti does it.

...Jim Thompson

Booboos. We fret over brake and turn, but what about tail/running
lights?

...Jim Thompson

---
There's no requirement for them to be included.

Around her, in Arizona-land, you're required to have at least one
"running" light or a "flag" ;-)

I'm wondering if "5-wire" isn't actually...

Running
Brake
Left Turn
Right Turn
Ground

...Jim Thompson

I found this...

http://tinyurl.com/44m6pmu

...Jim Thompson
Right, something I stated way back at the start of this tread and I
took that from memory.

So, it is true then, if it's on the internet it must be true
otherwise beware of information coming elsewhere.

Jamie

---
Do neither of you have a clue?

The OP asked for steady brake lights when the brake pedal was pressed,
unless a directional signal was invoked, at which time the directional
signal would override the brake signal and flash the directional lamp
on that channel.

---
What have either of you done to bring his request to fruition?

Without a schematic for the car to be used, you have no clue of what
might be needed. See this for an example...

Subject: Re: XOR at 12V and a few amps.
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 15:01:52 -0700
Message-ID: <7uqe6893cr1m2gnvbe6mp56q6jbk455qsp@4ax.com>

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

Jamie · Sep 30, 2012

John Fields wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 17:05:31 -0400, Jamie
jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:27:12 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:16:54 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

[snip]

Since Toyota's have been described as "5-wire", I presume that's...

Brake Left Brake Right
Turn Left Turn Right
Ground

So each side is independent and "Turn" (flashing) trumps "Brake"
(steady).

...Jim Thompson

---
Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

Are both "Brake" lamp circuits wired together? I have a wiring
diagram for my Q45... I guess I should open the manual and see how
Infiniti does it.

...Jim Thompson

Booboos. We fret over brake and turn, but what about tail/running
lights?

...Jim Thompson

---
There's no requirement for them to be included.

Around her, in Arizona-land, you're required to have at least one
"running" light or a "flag" ;-)

I'm wondering if "5-wire" isn't actually...

Running
Brake
Left Turn
Right Turn
Ground

...Jim Thompson

I found this...

http://tinyurl.com/44m6pmu

...Jim Thompson

Right, something I stated way back at the start of this tread and I
took that from memory.

So, it is true then, if it's on the internet it must be true
otherwise beware of information coming elsewhere.

Jamie

---
Do neither of you have a clue?

The OP asked for steady brake lights when the brake pedal was pressed,
unless a directional signal was invoked, at which time the directional
signal would override the brake signal and flash the directional lamp
on that channel.

---
What have either of you done to bring his request to fruition?

You are absolutely lost...

YOu really know how to screw up things.

Jamie

Jasen Betts · Sep 30, 2012

On 2012-09-29, Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2012-09-25, George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
First off this question is of academic interest only.

So I needed to hook up the a 4 wire trailer connector onto our Toyota
van. (previously we had a Ford van.) My brother warned me that the
foreign cars use a 5 wire lamp indicator system. (There are separate
bulbs for the brake and turn signal. The trailer uses only one bulb
for both brake and turn.)
I first thought I could just put the two (brake, turn) lines together
with diodes. But I then realized this wouldn't work with both the
brake and the turn signal on.
What I needed was a XOR connection between the lines.
both off, bulb off
one on, bulb on
both on, bulb off
So is there a way to do this with some diodes, transistors,
resistors?
I've been unable to see the way to an answer. (I haven't tried
google, that's too easy and this is more fun.)

Any ideas?

Oh, I solved the problem by going to carquest and buying a wiring
harness for ~$50. But say I'm stuck on a desert island with only my
parts box.

a couple of form b relays each wired to disconnect the other circuit...

if you can read ascii ladder logic.

---|BRK|-+----( A )-------------
|
`----|/B|---+--(OUT)---
|
.----|/A|---'
|
---|IND|-+----( B )-------------

you'll want two of those, one for each side.

What about four way (hazard) flasher mode?

I'm working on the assumption that the "4 wire trailer plug"
is ground, left brake, right brake, tail lights.

--
ââ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

Jasen Betts · Sep 30, 2012

On 2012-09-29, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

.. 12V
.. |
.. | +------[RLAMP]--+
.. RFLASH>-+ | | |
.. | | O K1 GND
.. [COIL].|. . .\
.. | O-> \<-o
.. | | NO
.. BRAKE---+ |
.. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
.. | | | |
.. | | O K2 GND
.. [COIL].|. . .\
.. | O-> \<-O
.. | NO
.. LFLASH>-+

--
ââ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

John Fields · Sep 30, 2012

On 30 Sep 2012 06:38:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-29, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

. 12V
. |
. | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

--
JF

Jim Thompson · Sep 30, 2012

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:56:10 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On 30 Sep 2012 06:38:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-29, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

. 12V
. |
. | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

John Fields · Sep 30, 2012

On 30 Sep 2012 06:38:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-29, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

---
Since you're working on the assumption that the "4 wire trailer plug"
is ground, left brake, right brake, and tail lights, then the tail
light hots could be the 12V input to K1.

--
JF

John Fields · Sep 30, 2012

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:57:44 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:56:10 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On 30 Sep 2012 06:38:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-29, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

. 12V
. |
. | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

Or coil current much less than normal bulb current.

...Jim Thompson

---
I don't see that; what am I missing?

--
JF

Jamie · Sep 30, 2012

John Fields wrote:

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:57:44 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:56:10 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On 30 Sep 2012 06:38:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-29, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

. 12V
. |
. | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

Or coil current much less than normal bulb current.

...Jim Thompson

---
I don't see that; what am I missing?

Vehicle supplied circuit!

Jamie

Jasen Betts · Oct 1, 2012

On 2012-09-30, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

. 12V
. |
. | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

No, you just need a pull-downs. The exisitng indicator and brake lamps
are typically 15W lamps which have a hot resistance less than 15 ohms
(and cold resistance even lower) but yeah, if both brake lamps, or
both indicator lamps on one side fail it'll stop working. If LED lamps
are used it's game over.

--
ââ 100% natural

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Jasen Betts · Oct 1, 2012

On 2012-09-30, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

Since you're working on the assumption that the "4 wire trailer plug"
is ground, left brake, right brake, and tail lights, then the tail
light hots could be the 12V input to K1.

Over here tail lights can be turned off (and usually are).

--
ââ 100% natural

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John Fields · Oct 1, 2012

On 1 Oct 2012 06:11:20 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-30, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

. 12V
. |
. | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

No, you just need a pull-downs.

---
Really?

Where would you connect them and what value of resistance would you
use?

--
JF

John Fields · Oct 1, 2012

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 17:39:43 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

John Fields wrote:

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:57:44 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:56:10 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On 30 Sep 2012 06:38:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-29, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

Mine works like that and provides hazard mode flash as well, with
three relays instead of four:

. +12
.BRAKE---+ |
. | O K1
. [COIL]. . ./
. | O->/ <-O
. GND | NC |
. | |
. | +----|--[LLAMP]--+
.LFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K2 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND | NO |
. | |
. | +----|--[RLAMP]--+
.RFLASH>-+ | | | |
. | | O K3 | GND
. [COIL].|. . .\ |
. | O-> \<-O
. GND NO

yeah but you need to run a (at-least) a 12V wire from the fusebox to the trailer
hitch. mine can be patched into the existing harness at the rear of
the vehicle,

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

. 12V
. |
. | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

Or coil current much less than normal bulb current.

...Jim Thompson

---
I don't see that; what am I missing?

Vehicle supplied circuit!

---
What did you have in mind?

--
JF

Jasen Betts · Oct 2, 2012

On 2012-10-01, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On 1 Oct 2012 06:11:20 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-30, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

No, you just need a pull-downs.

---
Really?

Where would you connect them and what value of resistance would you
use?

I'd use the existing indicator and brake lamps already installed in
the vehicle. At 12 ohms each the resistance is sgnificanly less than
the 90 ohm resistance of a typical automotive horn relay.

worst case is the hazard blinkers running both relays in parallel into
the only the two brake lights.

in all other cases you two "pulldowns" per relay.

.. .--(RF)--.
.. |--(RR)--|
.. | |
.. --+-- | 12V

. | |
. | | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
.. | |

.. .--(LB)--+ |
.. |--(RB)--+ |
.. | | |
.. --+-- | |

--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+
.. |

.. .--(LF)---+
.. +--(LR)---'
.. |
.. --+--

--
ââ 100% natural

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petrus bitbyter · Oct 2, 2012

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> schreef in bericht
news:k4dv6u$a88$1@reversiblemaps.ath.cx...

On 2012-10-01, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On 1 Oct 2012 06:11:20 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-30, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

No, you just need a pull-downs.

---
Really?

Where would you connect them and what value of resistance would you
use?

I'd use the existing indicator and brake lamps already installed in
the vehicle. At 12 ohms each the resistance is sgnificanly less than
the 90 ohm resistance of a typical automotive horn relay.

worst case is the hazard blinkers running both relays in parallel into
the only the two brake lights.

in all other cases you two "pulldowns" per relay.

. .--(RF)--.
. |--(RR)--|
. | |
. --+-- | 12V
. | |
. | | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | |
. .--(LB)--+ |
. |--(RB)--+ |
. | | |
. --+-- | |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+
. |
. .--(LF)---+
. +--(LR)---'
. |
. --+--

--
?? 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

Well, I think it'll work. I did not check your calculations as I suppose
you're fully capable to do the math correct.

I also consider it only interesting as an academic solution and that was
what the OP asked for.

As a real world solution I consider it bad engineering practice. Too much
changings in the original installation making it less reliable. Things like
pull ups/pull downs are common in the world of electronics but not in an
automotive lighting installation. Failing of the extra joints, the extra
resistors and even original bulbs do not only effect the trailer lights but
also the cars lighting.

Another practical point that did not get attention was the place of the
adaption circuit. Somehow the four wire plug of the trailer does not fit
into the five wire outlet of the car. Best practice is leaving the car
unchanged. But then you have to mount a five wire plug and cable to the
trailer. Once you are that far it may be easier to mount new five wire
lamps on the trailer.

petrus bitbyter

Jasen Betts · Oct 4, 2012

On 2012-10-02, petrus bitbyter <petrus.bitbyter@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> schreef in bericht
news:k4dv6u$a88$1@reversiblemaps.ath.cx...
On 2012-10-01, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On 1 Oct 2012 06:11:20 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2012-09-30, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

If you're going to run a 12V wire you can do it with 2 relays.
(probably not going to work if the vehicle has LED signal lights)

---
I see a problems in that the input switches must be form C.

No, you just need a pull-downs.

---
Really?

Where would you connect them and what value of resistance would you
use?

I'd use the existing indicator and brake lamps already installed in
the vehicle. At 12 ohms each the resistance is sgnificanly less than
the 90 ohm resistance of a typical automotive horn relay.

worst case is the hazard blinkers running both relays in parallel into
the only the two brake lights.

in all other cases you two "pulldowns" per relay.

. .--(RF)--.
. |--(RR)--|
. | |
. --+-- | 12V
. | |
. | | +------[RLAMP]--+
. RFLASH>-+ | | |
. | | O K1 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-o
. | | NO
. BRAKE---+ |
. | |
. .--(LB)--+ |
. |--(RB)--+ |
. | | |
. --+-- | |
. | | +------[LLAMP]--+
. | | | |
. | | O K2 GND
. [COIL].|. . .\
. | O-> \<-O
. | NO
. LFLASH>-+
. |
. .--(LF)---+
. +--(LR)---'
. |
. --+--

--
?? 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

Well, I think it'll work. I did not check your calculations as I suppose
you're fully capable to do the math correct.

I also consider it only interesting as an academic solution and that was
what the OP asked for.

it was a just for fun question, the OP already has an off-the-shelf
solution.

As a real world solution I consider it bad engineering practice. Too much
changings in the original installation making it less reliable.

Adding a single wire is too much for me, too many interior panels,
membranes and other automotive hardware to mess with, (not so bad in a
Kombi, where the wire just has to cross the engine compartment, but OP
had a Toyota)

Things like
pull ups/pull downs are common in the world of electronics but not in an
automotive lighting installation.

Failing of the extra joints, the extra
resistors and even original bulbs do not only effect the trailer lights but
also the cars lighting.

none of the existing wiring need be cut, the only thing that needs to
be added is the relays, the 12V supply wire, the trailer socket, and
the cable to it.

Another practical point that did not get attention was the place of the
adaption circuit. Somehow the four wire plug of the trailer does not fit
into the five wire outlet of the car. Best practice is leaving the car
unchanged. But then you have to mount a five wire plug and cable to the
trailer. Once you are that far it may be easier to mount new five wire
lamps on the trailer.

You could add an extra socket. OTOH the 4 relay circuit I proposed way back
would work in-line with an exisiting "5-wire" socket. you could stick
it in a project box and attach it to the trailer with velcro straps
when needed.

--
ââ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

XOR at 12V and a few amps.

John Fields

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