X-ray machine

Guest
This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1

Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had
something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I
wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On Friday, 11 October 2019 04:17:44 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1

Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had
something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I
wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one.

Maybe your next project is making one.
I gather handling the high EHT is a significant cost. Perhaps the secondary could be in the tube somehow, eliminating all external EHT wiring - I doubt it really.


NT
 
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:39:04 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, 11 October 2019 04:17:44 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1

Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had
something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I
wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one.

Maybe your next project is making one.
I gather handling the high EHT is a significant cost. Perhaps the secondary could be in the tube somehow, eliminating all external EHT wiring - I doubt it really.


NT

ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.

My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite
expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same
xray source.



--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:39:04 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, 11 October 2019 04:17:44 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1

Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had
something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I
wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one.

Maybe your next project is making one.
I gather handling the high EHT is a significant cost. Perhaps the secondary could be in the tube somehow, eliminating all external EHT wiring - I doubt it really.


NT

ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.

It depends on the image size. There are plenty of dental image sensors but
they are rather small. I have an almost new Midmark Progeny machine with #1
sensor that is barely enough for 256-ball 1mm pitch BGA. It is a VETERINARY
dental Xray that is exactly the same as regular one just having
cats/dogs/horses shown on its control panel but that mere fact made it
half-price of regular one. And it came with a used #1 sensor for that price.

Image is immediate -- just push a button, hear a short noise of running HV
supply and see picture on your computer monitor.

Those sensors are insanely expensive on Ebay, usually cost almost as much as
I paid for my entire complete machine with a sensor.

However there are other alternatives e.g. Image Intensifier with regular
camera attached. Those are bigger and let one overcome the main issue with
dental Xray, quite a big focal spot size (my Midmark has 0.5mm focal spot
that is actually smaller than 0.7mm for cheapest Xray option, Heliodent)
that require moving the tube as far from the object as possible to get good
resolution that makes it too weak at the object.

The crown jewels are made by Hamamatsu (there are others but Hamamatsu stuff
is probably the only one us mere mortals can buy; anything else is almost
unheard of being sold used for a fraction of original price) with best MFX
units having focal spots of 5 microns or so. Those are NOT pulsed tubes,
they are CW and such a small focal spot size allows for very high
magnification factors without losing resolution. Paired with decent size
Image Intensifier such unit is simply fantastic and works like a microscope
with high zoom factor (purely optical, not faked digital zoom)...

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
 
On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:


ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.


My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite
expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same
xray source.

I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image
on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography

I don't think they have any electronics in them.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:


ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.


My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite
expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same
xray source.

I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image
on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography

I don't think they have any electronics in them.

Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film"
things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:


ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.


My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite
expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same
xray source.

I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image
on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography

I don't think they have any electronics in them.

Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film"
things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total.

"Digital film" is not good for our kind of job. You have to make an
exposure, then put that "digital film" in a scanner to actually get the
image.

Intraoral sensors are much better -- most of those are just USB devices that
you hook up to your computer and have image immediately after exposure
without a need for additional scanner and moving your exposed film to that
scanner. With sensor you can immediately see your image is not what you
wanted so you can re-adjust your object/sensor and take another picture
right away. You can also take several snapshots of e.g. BGA chip at
different angles to check if it is soldered properly by simply turning your
board and pushing the Xray button without taking that "digital film" to the
scanner after each shot.

However even that is a big hassle as it is rather low-res at its default
setting and it is PULSED so you can only make still pictures. Sure it is way
better than nothing but it pales in comparison with a microfocus CW source
with digital sensor or image intensifier with a camera that gives you live
video in real time. You can rotate your board as you wish to better see some
details, zoom in/out and change tube voltage/current while seeing results
immediately. Dental Xray has a very limited voltage adjustment range if any
at all so the only parameter you can change is exposure time.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
 
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:17:36 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

This counts parts, on reels, trays, or in tubes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dxshzvpv53y5c3/VisiCon.JPG?raw=1

Sadly, its resolution is mediocre imaging a PC board. I wish I had
something for small parts, wire-bond sort of resolution, but I
wouldn't use it often enough to justify buying one.

Here's a PCB imaged with that parts counter machine.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kt99nhimkn1fjzn/T909a_Xray.tiff?raw=1

Interesting but not very useful.
 
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 17:39:49 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
<ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:


ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.


My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite
expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same
xray source.

I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image
on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography

I don't think they have any electronics in them.

Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film"
things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total.

"Digital film" is not good for our kind of job. You have to make an
exposure, then put that "digital film" in a scanner to actually get the
image.

Intraoral sensors are much better -- most of those are just USB devices that
you hook up to your computer and have image immediately after exposure
without a need for additional scanner and moving your exposed film to that
scanner. With sensor you can immediately see your image is not what you
wanted so you can re-adjust your object/sensor and take another picture
right away. You can also take several snapshots of e.g. BGA chip at
different angles to check if it is soldered properly by simply turning your
board and pushing the Xray button without taking that "digital film" to the
scanner after each shot.

However even that is a big hassle as it is rather low-res at its default
setting and it is PULSED so you can only make still pictures. Sure it is way
better than nothing but it pales in comparison with a microfocus CW source
with digital sensor or image intensifier with a camera that gives you live
video in real time. You can rotate your board as you wish to better see some
details, zoom in/out and change tube voltage/current while seeing results
immediately. Dental Xray has a very limited voltage adjustment range if any
at all so the only parameter you can change is exposure time.

I was looking at one of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1

but ebay and Amazon seldom describe what a gadget actually does.

I wouldn't mind a little hassle to get an image of an IC or a small
potted thing, but I would want resolution, to at least see wire bonds.

Wet film developing would be too much hassle.
 
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 17:39:49 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:


ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.


My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite
expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same
xray source.

I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image
on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography

I don't think they have any electronics in them.

Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film"
things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total.

"Digital film" is not good for our kind of job. You have to make an
exposure, then put that "digital film" in a scanner to actually get the
image.

Intraoral sensors are much better -- most of those are just USB devices that
you hook up to your computer and have image immediately after exposure
without a need for additional scanner and moving your exposed film to that
scanner. With sensor you can immediately see your image is not what you
wanted so you can re-adjust your object/sensor and take another picture
right away. You can also take several snapshots of e.g. BGA chip at
different angles to check if it is soldered properly by simply turning your
board and pushing the Xray button without taking that "digital film" to the
scanner after each shot.

However even that is a big hassle as it is rather low-res at its default
setting and it is PULSED so you can only make still pictures. Sure it is way
better than nothing but it pales in comparison with a microfocus CW source
with digital sensor or image intensifier with a camera that gives you live
video in real time. You can rotate your board as you wish to better see some
details, zoom in/out and change tube voltage/current while seeing results
immediately. Dental Xray has a very limited voltage adjustment range if any
at all so the only parameter you can change is exposure time.

I was looking at one of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1

OK, first of all it doesn't make sense to copy all that Ebay crap. Just make
it https://www.ebay.com/itm/ and add item number at the end so it would by
just:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143395881300

That easily fits in a single line. All that other garbage is totally
useless.

but ebay and Amazon seldom describe what a gadget actually does.

I wouldn't mind a little hassle to get an image of an IC or a small
potted thing, but I would want resolution, to at least see wire bonds.

Wet film developing would be too much hassle.

That particular item is one of a legion of intraoral sensor I've been
talking about. It is Chinese so you won't get any support if you lose e.g.
calibration files. Those are all extremely overpriced and there are people
who actually pay such prices. This is one of the reasons why our healthcare
is probably overpriced by at least an order of magnitude.

Just to give some number for comparison -- I paid something like $1,300
total (including shipping) for a complete almost new fully working MidMark
Progeny dental Xray unit (that included control box, wall mount,
articulating arm, full set of original manuals and accessories and even
original shipping box with all foam inserts etc) AND size 1 intraoral sensor
with all accompanying software. Most of that software is actually useless
for meas it is mostly integration into typical hospital environment but it
allow you to take pictures among thousand other features. It also had a
Windoze SDK and TWAIN driver that allows to use it from any TWAIN-compatible
Windoze application.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
 
On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 10:53:24 PM UTC-4, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

I was looking at one of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675..m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1

OK, first of all it doesn't make sense to copy all that Ebay crap. Just make
it https://www.ebay.com/itm/ and add item number at the end so it would by
just:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143395881300

That easily fits in a single line. All that other garbage is totally
useless.

No, it isn't useless. Everything past the question mark following the listing number is Ebay's tracking information to show who did the search. That's why I trim it when posting a link to Ebay.
 
Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 10:53:24 PM UTC-4, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

I was looking at one of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1

OK, first of all it doesn't make sense to copy all that Ebay crap. Just make
it https://www.ebay.com/itm/ and add item number at the end so it would by
just:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143395881300

That easily fits in a single line. All that other garbage is totally
useless.

No, it isn't useless. Everything past the question mark following the
listing number is Ebay's tracking information to show who did the search.
That's why I trim it when posting a link to Ebay.

Sure it is. But what use does it have for links posted to usenet? And what
is the use for that lengthy part between itm/ and item number? Does that
"SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista"
carry anything useful that is worth manual unrapping those extra-long lines
and have most newsreaders complaining about lines being too long?

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
 
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 1:18:33 AM UTC-4, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
Michael Terrell wrote:
On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 10:53:24 PM UTC-4, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

I was looking at one of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1

OK, first of all it doesn't make sense to copy all that Ebay crap. Just make
it https://www.ebay.com/itm/ and add item number at the end so it would by
just:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143395881300

That easily fits in a single line. All that other garbage is totally
useless.

No, it isn't useless. Everything past the question mark following the
listing number is Ebay's tracking information to show who did the search.
That's why I trim it when posting a link to Ebay.

Sure it is. But what use does it have for links posted to usenet? And what
is the use for that lengthy part between itm/ and item number? Does that
"SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista"
carry anything useful that is worth manual unrapping those extra-long lines
and have most newsreaders complaining about lines being too long?

I already said that I delete it, for security reasons. I usually cut the description part of the longer link and post it separately, so that people can see what the link is for.
 
On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 05:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
<ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 10:53:24 PM UTC-4, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

I was looking at one of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1

OK, first of all it doesn't make sense to copy all that Ebay crap. Just make
it https://www.ebay.com/itm/ and add item number at the end so it would by
just:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143395881300

That easily fits in a single line. All that other garbage is totally
useless.

No, it isn't useless. Everything past the question mark following the
listing number is Ebay's tracking information to show who did the search.
That's why I trim it when posting a link to Ebay.

Sure it is. But what use does it have for links posted to usenet?

Excuse me for wasting bytes. Some day we'll all run out and I'll feel
terrible.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:9dr3qed85irkdc7dvime1umjanp222et3g@4ax.com:

Excuse me for wasting bytes. Some day we'll all run out and I'll
feel
terrible.

Nah... you are just stupid for being so stupid as to not notice
how things are.

It was easy to notice years ago, so you been lackin' boy.

I post a youtube link I searched for, it always has the search
criteria tagged onto the actual found file string.

You are simply too oblivious to the small stuff to notice it, much
less care about it or "sweat it" as they say. Not good attributes to
be short of as an engineer.
 
On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 10:57:11 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 17:39:49 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:37:55 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/10/2019 06:44, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-11, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:


ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they
need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.


My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite
expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same
xray source.

I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image
on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostimulated_luminescence#Radiography

I don't think they have any electronics in them.

Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film"
things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total.

"Digital film" is not good for our kind of job. You have to make an
exposure, then put that "digital film" in a scanner to actually get the
image.

Intraoral sensors are much better -- most of those are just USB devices that
you hook up to your computer and have image immediately after exposure
without a need for additional scanner and moving your exposed film to that
scanner. With sensor you can immediately see your image is not what you
wanted so you can re-adjust your object/sensor and take another picture
right away. You can also take several snapshots of e.g. BGA chip at
different angles to check if it is soldered properly by simply turning your
board and pushing the Xray button without taking that "digital film" to the
scanner after each shot.

However even that is a big hassle as it is rather low-res at its default
setting and it is PULSED so you can only make still pictures. Sure it is way
better than nothing but it pales in comparison with a microfocus CW source
with digital sensor or image intensifier with a camera that gives you live
video in real time. You can rotate your board as you wish to better see some
details, zoom in/out and change tube voltage/current while seeing results
immediately. Dental Xray has a very limited voltage adjustment range if any
at all so the only parameter you can change is exposure time.

I was looking at one of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista/143395881300?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D6f6ec70310254507b70a9abac3f6ff4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D143395881300%26itm%3D143395881300%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Afd289eb3-ec4f-11e9-810f-74dbd180f05f%7Cparentrq%3Abbf3f54016d0a9cb7196678fffe6e92a%7Ciid%3A1

but ebay and Amazon seldom describe what a gadget actually does.

I wouldn't mind a little hassle to get an image of an IC or a small
potted thing, but I would want resolution, to at least see wire bonds.

I don't think standard dental x-ray will be able to see bonding wire. They are designed to see cavity without giving too much radiation. You might have to increase intensity for higher resolution.

> Wet film developing would be too much hassle.

That's last century technology. The one i worked on (fixing the stepper motors) has Ethernet and PC drivers to view images.

Gendex Orthoralix 8500/9200
 
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 10:06:00 AM UTC-7, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think standard dental x-ray will be able to see bonding wire.
They are designed to see cavity without giving too much radiation.
You might have to increase intensity for higher resolution.

Interestingly enough, dental X-ray machines are not that wimpy. 60 kVp
at (IIRC) 8 mA is what I usually see on the panel at my dentist's office.
Even at 1% efficiency they are shooting several watts at me.

For PCB inspection, the power of the X-ray source is a *long* way down on
the list of important considerations. Given the right setup, 35 kVp at
300 uA is quite usable for electronic inspection on 6- and 8-layer PCBs,
down to and including the bond-wire level. The sensor quality and
exposure time, along with the tube's focus spot size, are what make the
difference.

This thread is what got me into this stuff:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/faxitron-mx-20-x-ray-system-teardown/

It really sucks that it's so hard to get your hands on a usable microfocus
X-ray system. These things are about as hazardous as the color TVs that
most of us grew up sitting in front of... and that's assuming you've jimmied
the door interlock. Just about everybody here would sell a kidney or two
for an MX-20 if they knew what they were missing.

As it stands, getting a good deal on a good machine is pure luck. And then
you get to build a digitizer and write a bunch of software, unless you were
*really* lucky and got one that was (probably illegally) sold with its
original PC full of patient records. Grumble...

Dental sensors are better than nothing, and at least some of the Gendex
units have been reverse-engineered for use with free software
at https://github.com/JohnDMcMaster/gxs700 . Not sure what kind of results
can be expected without a microfocus tube, though. It's possible that a
Gendex sensor and an older film-based Faxitron would be a good combination.

-- john, KE5FX
 
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 5:19:29 PM UTC-7, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
As I've just finished full testing of recently acquired Hamamatsu L9181-02
Microfocus Source that turned up to be 100% success, fully working in all
modes, went without errors through its 2-hour "warmup" (or "aging" as it's
been called in older models) cycle I will be probably putting my Midmark set
for sale really soon...

That looks like a great tube, all right. It picks up at 40 kVp, right where
the one in the Faxitron leaves off. Do you know what machine(s) it was
originally used in?

Also, any good PCB images with the Midmark?

-- john, KE5FX
 
John Miles, KE5FX <jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 10:06:00 AM UTC-7, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think standard dental x-ray will be able to see bonding wire.
They are designed to see cavity without giving too much radiation.
You might have to increase intensity for higher resolution.

Interestingly enough, dental X-ray machines are not that wimpy. 60 kVp
at (IIRC) 8 mA is what I usually see on the panel at my dentist's office.
Even at 1% efficiency they are shooting several watts at me.

For PCB inspection, the power of the X-ray source is a *long* way down on
the list of important considerations. Given the right setup, 35 kVp at
300 uA is quite usable for electronic inspection on 6- and 8-layer PCBs,
down to and including the bond-wire level. The sensor quality and
exposure time, along with the tube's focus spot size, are what make the
difference.

This thread is what got me into this stuff:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/faxitron-mx-20-x-ray-system-teardown/

It really sucks that it's so hard to get your hands on a usable microfocus
X-ray system. These things are about as hazardous as the color TVs that
most of us grew up sitting in front of... and that's assuming you've jimmied
the door interlock. Just about everybody here would sell a kidney or two
for an MX-20 if they knew what they were missing.

As it stands, getting a good deal on a good machine is pure luck. And then
you get to build a digitizer and write a bunch of software, unless you were
*really* lucky and got one that was (probably illegally) sold with its
original PC full of patient records. Grumble...

Dental sensors are better than nothing, and at least some of the Gendex
units have been reverse-engineered for use with free software
at https://github.com/JohnDMcMaster/gxs700 . Not sure what kind of results
can be expected without a microfocus tube, though. It's possible that a
Gendex sensor and an older film-based Faxitron would be a good combination.

FWIW, an quick way to verify a system in an operatory is to have the
sensor take an X-ray of itself. The GXS-700 sensor is a classic.
Carestream offers a system that captures ~hundred [1] images during
X-ray bursts, software stitches the images together, colorizes them with
flesh and bone tones, and then renders the result in 3D images that can
be turned and viewed from any angle. It's great for patient education
because it drives home the thinness of your oral bone structure.

Note:

[1] ~hundred not hundreds of thousands.

Thank you, 73,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.
 

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