WWVB Receiver...

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 04.01.22 um 14:00 schrieb Jan Frank:

I have posted complete details of the noise rejecting sampler here. The
zdncpfd is a combination of the sampler plus a very simple extension of the
comventional pfd.

Google spends 0.7 seconds of its valuable search time
to return nothing but this conversation here and something
that seems to be a cash fraud page that Thunderbird does
not want to enter.

So much for complete details.

Gerhard

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 5 Jan 2022 10:32:03 +0100) it happened Gerhard Hoffmann
<dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote in <sr3oik$psk$1@solani.org>:

Am 04.01.22 um 14:00 schrieb Jan Frank:

I have posted complete details of the noise rejecting sampler here. The
zdncpfd is a combination of the sampler plus a very simple extension of the
comventional pfd.

Google spends 0.7 seconds of its valuable search time
to return nothing but this conversation here and something
that seems to be a cash fraud page that Thunderbird does
not want to enter.

So much for complete details.

Gerhard

The only \'noise rejecting sampler\' for a PLL I came up with years ago
was just a sample and hold on a square wave derived from the local oscillator.
If the sample pulse failed (due to dropouts in the medium)
then no wrong sample was taken,
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/fdc-2.jpg
was for a 5 1/4 inch floppy drive data decoder.
CD4046
Man that thing was good, you could slow down the flop with your hand and it would still read data without errors.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html

 

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 05.01.22 um 09:25 schrieb Jan Frank:

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

No, you still don\'t understand. There is no locking of the 1PPS to GPS. You

No, you still don\'t understand. There IS locking of the 1PPS to
GPS. That is its only purpose. The lock is a long term average,
in terms of hours. An integrating low pass filter IS needed.

can have multiple phase reversals as the receiver clock drifts high and
low. You can have hanging bridges, where the internal clock is temporarily
at the correct frequency, but the wrong phase.

See Tom Van Baak, Sawtooth and hanging bridges, timing stability at
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/MG1613S/

I consider it fraudulent that you cite TvB\'s work as if it would
endorse your ideas.

In most GPS receivers the 1pps output is just a port bit of the
CPU. You can ask some receivers for an estimate of how wrong the
previous 1pps has been.

Single 1pps have no meaning other than an opportunity to
blinking a LED. It takes 1000s of them to have any significance.

Gerhard

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Jan Frank wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jan Frank wrote:

[...]

The output is not the conventional linear pdf + and - pulses. The
20*log(N) does not apply.

No sort of phase detector--linear mixer, sampling, bang/bang, xor, you
name it--can get rid of the 20 log N, because it ain\'t the phase
detector that produces it. It\'s inherent to the multiplication process.

I keep telling you it is not linear and does not follow the same
limitations.

It\'s inherent in the frequency multiplication process.

It is the phase detector. You can lock
two 10MHz signals together, such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it
works the same.

Sure, because then 20 log N = 0.

If you use a conventional pfd, the rubidium noise will transfer to the OCXO
since the pfd is linear. The 20*log(1) is meaningless here.

My detector is not linear and will not transfer the rubidium noise to the
OCXO. It will lock on frequency and phase, but the rubidium jitter will not
affect the OCXO.

Every case of locking one oscillator to another shows a shelf in the phase
noise where the jitter is inside the loop bandwidth. My detector eliminates
this shelf.

For example, you could lock a SAW oscillator at 1 GHZ to a crystal
oscillator at 1 MHz. Normally, the 20*log(N) would produce 60 dB of
degredation in the SAW phase noise.

My detector decouples the SAW from the crystal, and keeps the original SAW
phase noise.

similarly, you could lock a GUNN at 10GHz to a 1 MHz crystal. This would
normally produce 80 dB degredation in the GUNN phase noise, which is why
ultra pure oscillators running at as high a frequency are sought after. See
Wenzel 100Mhz ULN oscillators.

With my detector, this is no longer true. You can use any stable crystal to
achieve the same frequency stability without the additional noise due to
frequency multiplication.

Thanks for your comments. You are giving me excellent ammunition when it
comes to selling my detector to major companies in the low noise business.

Good luck with that. They can mostly do math, I expect.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 6/1/22 2:34 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Jan Frank wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jan Frank wrote:

[...]

The output is not the conventional linear pdf + and - pulses. The
20*log(N) does not apply.

No sort of phase detector--linear mixer, sampling, bang/bang, xor, you
name it--can get rid of the 20 log N, because it ain\'t the phase
detector that produces it.  It\'s inherent to the multiplication process.

I keep telling you it is not linear and does not follow the same
limitations.

It\'s inherent in the frequency multiplication process.

It is the phase detector. You can lock
two 10MHz signals together, such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it
works the same.
Sure, because then 20 log N = 0.

If you use a conventional pfd, the rubidium noise will transfer to the
OCXO
since the pfd is linear. The 20*log(1) is meaningless here.

My detector is not linear and will not transfer the rubidium noise to the
OCXO. It will lock on frequency and phase, but the rubidium jitter
will not
affect the OCXO.

Every case of locking one oscillator to another shows a shelf in the
phase
noise where the jitter is inside the loop bandwidth. My detector
eliminates
this shelf.

For example, you could lock a SAW oscillator at 1 GHZ to a crystal
oscillator at 1 MHz. Normally, the 20*log(N) would produce 60 dB of
degredation in the SAW phase noise.

My detector decouples the SAW from the crystal, and keeps the original
SAW
phase noise.

similarly, you could lock a GUNN at 10GHz to a 1 MHz crystal. This would
normally produce 80 dB degredation in the GUNN phase noise, which is why
ultra pure oscillators running at as high a frequency are sought
after. See
Wenzel 100Mhz ULN oscillators.

With my detector, this is no longer true. You can use any stable
crystal to
achieve the same frequency stability without the additional noise due to
frequency multiplication.

Thanks for your comments. You are giving me excellent ammunition when it
comes to selling my detector to major companies in the low noise
business.

Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.

MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
his name along with \"colloidal silver\" for an example. I\'m not surprised
he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
he cannot win but will not admit defeat.

 

[Jan Frank]

Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:

Am 05.01.22 um 09:25 schrieb Jan Frank:
Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

No, you still don\'t understand. There is no locking of the 1PPS to GPS.
You

No, you still don\'t understand. There IS locking of the 1PPS to
GPS. That is its only purpose. The lock is a long term average,
in terms of hours. An integrating low pass filter IS needed.

There is no phase locking as in a pll. The internal crystal
oscillator drifts in frequency due to small temperature changes.

Since phase is the integral of frequency, this causes a ramp in
phase. The phase rolls over when it reaches 360 degrees, which
causes the sawtooth waveform in the 1 PPS.

The 1PPS is not locked to the GPS. The error is bounded by the
period of the internal crystal oscillator in the GPS receiver. Since
the oscillator drifts, the phase also changes. See

\"Allan Deviations of Typical Clocks\"

Quote: \"An example of 1PPS sawtooth. This is a \"hanging bridge\" that
results when receiver\'s clock passes thru an integer Hz causing a
zero-beat. While this happens, the statistics of time-interval
averaging goes bad.\"

This is on page 12: https://www.cnssys.com/files/PTTI/PTTI_2006.pdf

Hanging bridges cause an indeterminant error in the phase of the 1PPS. You
normally have no way to detect this, but I show a simple method below.

can have multiple phase reversals as the receiver clock drifts high and
low. You can have hanging bridges, where the internal clock is
temporarily at the correct frequency, but the wrong phase.

See Tom Van Baak, Sawtooth and hanging bridges, timing stability at
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/MG1613S/

I consider it fraudulent that you cite TvB\'s work as if it would
endorse your ideas.

Gerhard, I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion.
I am not using TvB\'s work to endorse my ideas. These are not my
ideas. They are TvB\'s. I got them from him.

I cited his page for clairification of their meaning. That is how
references are used. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as
you give credit. Which I did.

In most GPS receivers the 1pps output is just a port bit of the
CPU. You can ask some receivers for an estimate of how wrong the
previous 1pps has been.

Yes. There is a very simple way to drive the error to zero using the
NMEA ZDA - Time and Data message. You can use the information to
adjust the internal crystal in the GPS receiver to the exact
frequency needed for zero beat. See \"Allan Deviations of Typical
Clocks\", cited above. There is usually no direct connection to
the oscillator, but there are very simple tricks to get around that.

Quote: ZDA - Time and Date

\"NOTE: GPS time can be used as a time tag for the PPS output. The ZDA
sentence comes out 00-500 ms after the PPS.\"

\"ZDA - SiRF Timing Message\"

\"Outputs the time associated with the current 1 PPS pulse. Each
message is output within a few hundred ms after the 1 PPS pulse is
output and tells the time of the pulse that just occurred.\"

https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/GPS/NMEA%20Reference%20Manual1.pdf

Here is an article that describes the ZDA message string and sample
C code to decode it:

https://resources.winsystems.com/software/nmea.pdf

Even with zero pps error, you still have to contend with the diurnal
phase shift, especially at sunrise and sunset.

Single 1pps have no meaning other than an opportunity to
blinking a LED. It takes 1000s of them to have any significance.

It takes around 10^4 pulses to get to 1e-12, depending on the
receiver. See

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/3gps/gps-adev.gif
(another link to TvB)

> Gerhard

 

[Jan Frank]

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Jan Frank wrote:

Thanks for your comments. You are giving me excellent ammunition when
it comes to selling my detector to major companies in the low noise
business.

Good luck with that. They can mostly do math, I expect.

They also understand money. Improved performance leads directly to that.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[Jan Frank]

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.

MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
his name along with \"colloidal silver\" for an example. I\'m not surprised
he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
he cannot win but will not admit defeat.

LOL! I posted for a long time on the Yahoo colloidal silver page. It is
full of information on how to make and use colloidal silver. It was moved
to the google groups site when Yahoo terminated the forums. You can find it
at https://groups.google.com, but I haven\'t posted in years.

Instead of the conventional 3 nines, I use pure silver wire bent in a U-
shape. This avoids the concentration of ions at the sharp tips which leads
to the production of silver hydroxide, which is completely inert and of no
use.

I also use a constant current source to control the current. There is no
control with the 3 nines, which leads to runaway as the solution evolves.

I also use a completely different method of taking the silver ions. Instead
of drinking it, which produces silver chloride when it combines with the
hydrochloric acid in the stomach, I simply hold a mouthful for 15 minutes,
then spit it out. This produces a concentration of around 27 parts per
billion in the typical male, so there is no problem with producing silver
chloride when they contact the salt in the blood.

27 parts per billion is a very small amount, but it is all that is needed.
The silver ions provide the mineral needed by white blood cells to track
and destroy pathogens.

The result is no one who uses my method ever has colds or the flu again. I
haven\'t had a cold or flu in over 30 years. Shingles is killed in a day or
so, and herpes simplex (cold sores) drop off in about three days.

The silver ions are also useful in healing cuts and burns. I once received
a serious burn on my finger, which completely stripped off the skin down to
the fingernail.

I wrapped the finger in gauze, and kept it saturated with a silver ion
solution. Within a week or so, the wound was completely healed, with no
trace of a scar.

All along, I provided complete details, including descriptions and
schematics.

I also provided the equations for the electrolysis process for the first
time. This explained how the silver ions are released from the anode into
the solution, and why they combine with the hydroxyl ions formed at the
cathode to form silver hydroxide, AgOh. This is one of the least useful
substances on the planet and is to be avoided.

I explained how the concentration of ions combine in the Nernst Diffusion
layer, and how to swap the polarity of the current in the electrolysis
process to minimize it. This allows you to reach a concentration of around
18 ppm (parts per million) instead of the normal 4-5 ppm with the 3 nines.

I also showed how to use the Faraday equation to calculate the silver ion
concentration in the electrolysis process. Here it is:

; General Faraday Calculation For Metals
; This uses the equation solver written by Roger
Schlafly
; Roger Schlafly\'s files are available at:

;http://archives.math.utk.edu/software/msdos/miscellaneous/mrcry209/.html
; http://www.spinstop.com/roger/eureka.htm
; ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-
stuttgart.de/pdf/borland/Eureka_The_Solver_Owners_Handbook_1987.pdf

; The Faraday Constant gives the amount of charge needed to transfer
; one gram-equivalent of substance by electrolysis. It is 96,485.34
; Coulombs or 26.80 ampere-hours. This is the product of Avogadro\'s
; number and the charge of the electron.

; Constants

atomwt = metal ; valence

chromium = 51.9961 ; 6 ; atomic weight of chromium
copper = 63.546 ; 2 ; atomic weight of copper
lead = 207.2 ; 2 ; atomic weight of lead
silver = 107.868 ; 1 ; atomic weight of silver
zinc = 65.39 ; 2 ; atomic weight of zinc

faraday = 96485.34 ; Faraday constant

; Unit Conversions

coulombs = amp * seconds ; total number of Coulombs
ionsec = amp / (valence * 1.60217733e-19) ; ions per second
ionsnm2 = ionssqinsec / 6.45e14 ; ions per square nanometer per sec
ionssqinsec = ionsec / area ; ions per sq. in. per sec
mg = grams * 1000 ; convert milligrams to grams
ppb = ppm * 1e3 ; parts per billion
ppm = mg / litres ; 1 ppm is 1 milligram per litre
ppmpermin = ppm / minutes ; ppm per minute
ppt = ppm * 1e6 ; Parts Per Trillion, not Per Thousand
seconds = hours * 3600 ; brew time
seconds = minutes * 60 ; number of minutes
totnumions = ionsec * seconds ; total number of ions transferred
uasqin = (1e6 * amp) / area ; current density in uA per sq in

; Volume Conversions

cc = ml ; 1 cubic centimeter = 1 milliliter
litres = 0.946352946 * quart ; convert US quart to litres
litres = 3.785412 * usgallon ; convert US gallon to litres
litres = 4.546092 * cangallon ; convert Can gallon to litres
ml = litres * 1000 ; convert litres to millilitre
ounces = 33.8140227 * litres ; convert litres to ounces

; Equations

grams = (coulombs * atomwt) / (valence * faraday) ; Faraday Equation

; Brew Parameters

; hours = 22

amp = 300e-6 ; cell current
area = 20
hours = 1
metal = silver ; select metal to use
ml = 10 ; assume 10 cc in contact area
valence = 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the result. Note the values for uasqin, ppm and mg.

atomwt = +107.8680000000000 { = +26967 / 250 }
metal = +107.8680000000000 { = +26967 / 250 }
chromium = +51.9961000000000
copper = +63.5460000000000 { = +31773 / 500 }
lead = +207.2000000000000 { = +1036 / 5 }
silver = +107.8680000000000 { = +26967 / 250 }
zinc = +65.3900000000000 { = +6539 / 100 }
faraday = +96485.3400000000
coulombs = +1.080000000000000 { = +27 / 25 }
amp = +0.0003000000000000000 { = +3 / 10000 }
seconds = +3600.0000000000000
ionsec = +1.87245190892821E+15
valence = +1.0000000000000000
ionsnm2 = +0.14515131076963
ionssqinsec = +93622595446410.4
area = +20.000000000000000
mg = +1.20741078385587
grams = +0.00120741078385587
ppb = 1000*ppm
= +120741.078385587
ppm = 1.20741078385587/(3.785412*usgallon)
= +120.741078385587
litres = 3.785412*usgallon
= +0.010000000000000 { = +1 / 100 }
ppmpermin = 1.20741078385587/(0.946352946*quart)/minutes
= +2.012351306426
minutes = +60.000000000000000
ppt = 1000000*1.20741078385587/(0.946352946*quart)
= +120741078.385587
hours = +1.0000000000000000
totnumions = +6.74082687214155E+18
uasqin = +15.00000000000000
cc = +10.000000000000000
ml = +10.000000000000000
quart = 4.00000022824465*usgallon
= +0.010566882094326
usgallon = 1.20095038532133*cangallon
= +0.002641720372842
cangallon = +0.00219969151526190 { = +2500 / 1136523 }
ounces = 31.9999999982559*quart
= +0.33814022700000

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/silvercentral/message/765?l=1

I consider my contributions to the field very significant, and of interest
to anyone wishing to improve their health.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 06/01/2022 09:34, Jan Frank wrote:

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.

MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
his name along with \"colloidal silver\" for an example. I\'m not surprised
he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
he cannot win but will not admit defeat.

[snip]
I consider my contributions to the field very significant, and of interest
to anyone wishing to improve their health.

Or more likely turn their skin a curious shade of silver grey blue alien
colour as has happened to quite a few of the self medicating colloidal
silver fanatics (and also from industrial injury working with silver).
Argyria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria

Think delusional libertarian freak show...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Jones_(Libertarian_politician)

One odd side effect of the Y2k bug that didn\'t go away!

On the plus side it is nowhere near as harmful as self medicating with
Radium as was once popular in the USA. Promoted by Eben Byers.

https://historyofyesterday.com/eben-byers-the-man-who-drank-radioactive-water-until-his-jaw-fell-off-d2634336b504

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Jan Frank]

Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/01/2022 09:34, Jan Frank wrote:
Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.

MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just
search his name along with \"colloidal silver\" for an example. I\'m not
surprised he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of
starting fights he cannot win but will not admit defeat.

[snip]
I consider my contributions to the field very significant, and of
interest to anyone wishing to improve their health.

Or more likely turn their skin a curious shade of silver grey blue alien
colour as has happened to quite a few of the self medicating colloidal
silver fanatics (and also from industrial injury working with silver).
Argyria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria

Think delusional libertarian freak show...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Jones_(Libertarian_politician)

You have to drink huge amounts of badly made colloidal silver over a long
time to see any effect. Stan Jones drank cs made with sodium chloride for
ten years before he turned blue.

Using salt in the electrolysis process was originally recommended for the 3
nines process. It was quickly abandoned when it was found to have no
effect.

The next step was to eliminate the salt and use pure distilled water
instead of ordinary tap water. This produced solutions of 4-5 ppm and had
much better effect.

The method I recommend is to use a constant current source and alternate
the polarity every 15 minutes, with a 5 minute pause in between. I would be
happy to post the LTspice ASC and PRT files, and the Diptrace schematic and
pcb files if requested.

This produces about 18 ppm of silver ions, which is about the strongest you
can make at home.

The next step is to not drink it, which produces silver chloride when the
silver ions come in contact with the hydrochloric acid in your stomach.

Silver chloride is insoluble, and enters the blood stream after it passes
out of the stomach.

It then distributes throughout the body and builds up over time. This
produces the silver tint shown in various photos.

Instead, my recommendation is to hold a mouthful for abut 15 minutes, then
spit it out. This bypasses the formation of silver chloride in the stomach,
and the silver ions are absorbed sublingually.

The resulting ion concentration in the blood is around 27 ppb (parts per
billion). This is far too small to form silver chloride in the blood, but
it is more than enough to help the immune system find and destroy
pathogens.

I have not had a cold or flu in over 30 years. A shingles attack was
stopped in days. A herpes simplex (cold sores) was stopped in 3 days. Other
users report the same results.

A serious burn that stripped the skin of my finger was healed in a week or
so using silver ions in a gauze bandage.

Silver-impregnated bandages are used in hospitals to treat burn victims.
Silver sulphate bandages are another form that is also used.

These bandages rely on enzymes in the victims secretions to release silver
ions into the wound.

This is actually a very inefficient method of obtaining silver ions.

Saturating a gauze bandage is far more effective, but this would require
teaching doctors and nurses how to handle the solution and avoid
contamination, especially to avoid contact with salts. This is practically
impossible, so the current practise is probably best.

 

[Jan Frank]

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

[...]

MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
his name along with \"colloidal silver\" for an example. I\'m not surprised
he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
he cannot win but will not admit defeat.

I enjoy a good fight with intelligent and knowlegable people. You do not
qualify.

I am changing my nym again. I found that Arnie Dwyer is a much more
satisfying name, and I like it much better. I have tried it on Youtube and I
am very satisfied with the results. Here is a list of my previous nyms:

Mike Monett. This is my real name and the name on my patents. BTW, I got my
first patent at MIT. I doubt you even recognize the name.

Steve Wilson. I used this for a long time, but got sick of it.

Arnie Dwyer. This is my new nym. I will use it for future posts.