WTF with my computer clock?

On 8/13/2009 10:34 PM isw spake thus:

In article <4a844907$0$7473$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 8/13/2009 4:58 AM root spake thus:

isw <isw@witzend.com> wrote:

What the NTP process does is essentially to monitor the local clock
compared to a reference to understand just what its errors are, and
synthesize a "perfect" clock from it. The synthesized clock can remain
within a few microseconds (or better) of a reference timekeeper all the
time.

Maybe that works if you leave the computer on all the time. I started
the ntpd daemon early in the morning and by late afternoon the time
was, once again, way the hell off. Since I only care one time, one
day a week what the time is I have set up crontab entries to do the
job.

I see the problem, that seems to have been missed by those suggesting a
software kluge that periodically stuffs the clock with the right value.

Here's an idea I haven't seen in this thread yet: If you're really
interested in getting to the bottom of this problem, how about trying to
determine whether it's the actual clock (RTCC hardware) that's off, or
whether the OS is missing interrupts or there's some other software problem?

How about booting the computah under some other OS, say Windoze or even
DOS, and running a utility that checks the RTCC for accuracy? (Don't
know of any, but I'm ass-uming that there are lots of such utilities out
there. Maybe there's even one for Linux.) That way you could know
whether the clock needs to be tweaked (new crystal as suggested by
others), or whether it's an OS problem.

Just an idea.

As I said earlier, if the local clock (crystal, whatever) is
free-running (not synced to a standard reference using e.g. ntpd), it
*will not* stay accurate because it *cannot* be running at precisely the
proper rate all the time. No matter how often you set it. No matter how
often you tweak that little capacitor (which is very likely *not there*
to tweak in the first place. You can *never* get it "right on". The
question is not whether it is ever "correct", but only how fast it
diverges from "correct" whenever you stop messing with it. The
brilliance and elegance of NTP is that it can take that crappy,
imprecise, piece of temperature-sensitive quartz, and from it synthesize
an amazingly precise timekeeper.
Click to expand...
Sounds OK to me, except that I just checked and reset my computah's
clock (I use a little Windoze utility called "NIStime" that gets the
time from NIST); it was off by about 5 minutes. Haven't synched it up
for at least 6 months, so I know my RTCC is at least that accurate.
(Running W2K, so I assume that no software process is adjusting my
clock.) Shouldn't most PC clocks be about that accurate? (Older MB,
forget exactly what, can find out if you're interested.)


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
 
"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:2kqel6-rpd.ln1@radagast.org...
In article <zm2hm.283768$Sn5.199463@newsfe26.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I reckon that TV companies must now use these laptops with very rough RTCs
!
Have you noticed that now programme material is not networked from one
region into some or all of the others, and adverts are no longer 'local',
there is not any need for accurate cueing points around the network, so
advertised starting times are not even nodded at ? I checked the starting
times of about half a dozen programmes tonight, using the teletext clock,
which I believe to be accurate, and not a single one started within 1
minute
of the correct time, and a couple of them were off by several minutes.
Just
another manifestation of declining standards throughout the civilised
world
... :-\

At least some of that starting-time error seems to be a deliberate
policy by the stations/networks. By de-synchronizing a network's
start times from those of its competitors, the network can make
channel-surfing less attractive to the viewer... by the time you
finish watching a show on that network, the shows on the other
networks have already started and you'd miss something by surfing away.

It's a frightful bother who use DVRs and VCRs to time-shift programs...
losing the first or last minute of a show is quite common.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Click to expand...
Very possible Dave. But on that score, one thing I've found is that when you
decide to go channel hopping on the satellite programmes, it seems to be the
law that the first channel you surf to, will be in a commercial break, then
the next, then the next, then the next, then the .....

And you're right about them going straight into content, with the opening
credits following later. It drives me up the wall as well, when opening
credits are running at the rate of one every 20 seconds or so, and it
doesn't get to "directed by" (always the last one) until 10 minutes - or
more sometimes - into the show. Worst that I've come across in recent years
for annoying openings, was "The Shield". That one had an opening sequence of
what happened in some storyline two seasons ago, as if you can remember, and
then the opening credit sequence started, running over the top of the new
storyline. That I could live with, except that each character name was on a
black screen, so some scene important to the current episode is running, and
for two minutes, you keep getting a black screen with a white name on it,
obliterating what's going on, whilst the sound continues to run, just to
taunt you.

Does anyone know where in the world the school of half-arsed camerawork and
editing techniques is ? Must be a big place, as it seems that networks won't
take on anyone any more, who hasn't graduated from it ... :)

Arfa
 
In article <zm2hm.283768$Sn5.199463@newsfe26.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I reckon that TV companies must now use these laptops with very rough
RTCs ! Have you noticed that now programme material is not networked
from one region into some or all of the others, and adverts are no
longer 'local', there is not any need for accurate cueing points around
the network, so advertised starting times are not even nodded at ? I
checked the starting times of about half a dozen programmes tonight,
using the teletext clock, which I believe to be accurate, and not a
single one started within 1 minute of the correct time, and a couple of
them were off by several minutes. Just another manifestation of
declining standards throughout the civilised world ... :-\
Click to expand...
Depends - the actual ad break times are pretty accurate between some of
the companies - the idea being to prevent channel hopping when the ads
come on. You'll just see ads on the others. Hence the way they crash into
the break on progs not made with this schedule in mind. And most of ITV
comes from just one playout centre, so should be synchronised across the
country.
Start times for progs have never been accurately published. They've always
been approximate - apart from on some data points in the evening.

--
*The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
In article <2kqel6-rpd.ln1@radagast.org>,
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote:
It's a frightful bother who use DVRs and VCRs to time-shift programs...
losing the first or last minute of a show is quite common.
Click to expand...
Most PVRs allow you to set a buffer period at start and finish of the
prog. But if only the EPG sent out a flag for the *actual* start and
finish.

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
In article <isw-D236FF.22072913082009@[216.168.3.50]>,
isw <isw@witzend.com> wrote:
It doesn't come "from" my ISP; more like "through" it. And if I have a
decent NTP client setup, my computer's clock (not the hardware, but the
software one the OS provides to applications) will run at *precisely*
the correct rate in the long term (the longer the term, the greater the
precision), and will provide the proper epoch within a couple of
microseconds or so -- maybe better. The rate be very, very close for
shorter intervals. The place where it will not do so well is with very
short measures because the jitter may be a bit high compared to, say, a
rubidium clock.
Click to expand...
Dunno the actual process, but I have a radio controlled clock next to the
computer - and that always agrees as close as I can tell to the time
signal off analogue radio - but never *exactly* with the computer one. Of
course this could be some delay within the computer. I have two computers
here - an elderly RISC OS one and a newish PC, and it applies to both.

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
In article <O29hm.139722$OM.1328@newsfe06.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Does anyone know where in the world the school of half-arsed camerawork
and editing techniques is ? Must be a big place, as it seems that
networks won't take on anyone any more, who hasn't graduated from it
... :)
Click to expand...
It was once thought that any camera work or editing which grabbed your
attention would distract from the story. But nowadays story seems often
less important than the action.
I'm of a generation brought up on radio drama - and still enjoy it.
Luckily in the UK there's still a fair bit. Both film and TV have to work
hard to improve on your own imagination. ;-)

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508a9cb9eddave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <O29hm.139722$OM.1328@newsfe06.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Does anyone know where in the world the school of half-arsed camerawork
and editing techniques is ? Must be a big place, as it seems that
networks won't take on anyone any more, who hasn't graduated from it
... :)

It was once thought that any camera work or editing which grabbed your
attention would distract from the story. But nowadays story seems often
less important than the action.
I'm of a generation brought up on radio drama - and still enjoy it.
Luckily in the UK there's still a fair bit. Both film and TV have to work
hard to improve on your own imagination. ;-)

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Click to expand...
There's a lot of camera and editing techniques employed now, which I think
are the result of arty-farty thinking, and often at least incongruous in a
particular production, if not downright inappropriate. One that seems to
have come in recently, is where a show like for instance "The Hotel
Inspector", has a presenter who needs to present some parts direct to
camera. They used to look at the camera, and the good ones could get the
right 'expression' into their eyes to 'engage' the viewer. You actually felt
like they were talking to you alone. Now, they seem to talk to some unknown
person standing 10 feet behind the camerman's right shoulder. This gives
their eyes a strange 'disconnected' look, and it feels sort of rude of them
to appear to be talking to someone else rather than me.

I also hate the waggling camera shots, the rapid zooms and de-zooms that
leave the focus lagging a couple of seconds behind, and the way that cookery
programmes are shot now, with the camera zooming in on a single tomato seed
in the mixing bowl, before a high speed de-zoom to some arbitrary ingredient
pile or implement, followed by another high speed and defocussed zoom to the
spot on the end of the presenter's nose, followed by a rapid drop back into
the mixing bowl. WTF are they trying to show ? How is that sort of crap
appropriate to that type of programme ?

And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong', changed the way
it's lit, presumably to try to give it some kind of dark edginess, added the
most inappropriate incidental music, and changed the characters into moody
hard-men. That show had a good format before, and wasn't suffering falling
ratings, so why try to fix what ain't broke ?

And it never starts on time ... :)

Arfa
 
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508a9cb9eddave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <O29hm.139722$OM.1328@newsfe06.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Does anyone know where in the world the school of half-arsed camerawork
and editing techniques is ? Must be a big place, as it seems that
networks won't take on anyone any more, who hasn't graduated from it
... :)
It was once thought that any camera work or editing which grabbed your
attention would distract from the story. But nowadays story seems often
less important than the action.
I'm of a generation brought up on radio drama - and still enjoy it.
Luckily in the UK there's still a fair bit. Both film and TV have to work
hard to improve on your own imagination. ;-)

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

There's a lot of camera and editing techniques employed now, which I think
are the result of arty-farty thinking, and often at least incongruous in a
particular production, if not downright inappropriate. One that seems to
have come in recently, is where a show like for instance "The Hotel
Inspector", has a presenter who needs to present some parts direct to
camera. They used to look at the camera, and the good ones could get the
right 'expression' into their eyes to 'engage' the viewer. You actually felt
like they were talking to you alone. Now, they seem to talk to some unknown
person standing 10 feet behind the camerman's right shoulder. This gives
their eyes a strange 'disconnected' look, and it feels sort of rude of them
to appear to be talking to someone else rather than me.

I also hate the waggling camera shots, the rapid zooms and de-zooms that
leave the focus lagging a couple of seconds behind, and the way that cookery
programmes are shot now, with the camera zooming in on a single tomato seed
in the mixing bowl, before a high speed de-zoom to some arbitrary ingredient
pile or implement, followed by another high speed and defocussed zoom to the
spot on the end of the presenter's nose, followed by a rapid drop back into
the mixing bowl. WTF are they trying to show ? How is that sort of crap
appropriate to that type of programme ?

And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong', changed the way
it's lit, presumably to try to give it some kind of dark edginess, added the
most inappropriate incidental music, and changed the characters into moody
hard-men. That show had a good format before, and wasn't suffering falling
ratings, so why try to fix what ain't broke ?

And it never starts on time ... :)

Arfa
Click to expand...
Have you noticed that they've just discovered tilt shifting so that
almost every cop show you watch these days has long shots that look like
lego models and usually quite out of context - they do it cos they can.

Ron
 
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:53:23 -0700, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens>wrote:

On 8/13/2009 10:34 PM isw spake thus:

In article <4a844907$0$7473$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 8/13/2009 4:58 AM root spake thus:

isw <isw@witzend.com> wrote:

What the NTP process does is essentially to monitor the local clock
compared to a reference to understand just what its errors are, and
synthesize a "perfect" clock from it. The synthesized clock can remain
within a few microseconds (or better) of a reference timekeeper all the
time.

Maybe that works if you leave the computer on all the time. I started
the ntpd daemon early in the morning and by late afternoon the time
was, once again, way the hell off. Since I only care one time, one
day a week what the time is I have set up crontab entries to do the
job.

I see the problem, that seems to have been missed by those suggesting a
software kluge that periodically stuffs the clock with the right value.

Here's an idea I haven't seen in this thread yet: If you're really
interested in getting to the bottom of this problem, how about trying to
determine whether it's the actual clock (RTCC hardware) that's off, or
whether the OS is missing interrupts or there's some other software problem?

How about booting the computah under some other OS, say Windoze or even
DOS, and running a utility that checks the RTCC for accuracy? (Don't
know of any, but I'm ass-uming that there are lots of such utilities out
there. Maybe there's even one for Linux.) That way you could know
whether the clock needs to be tweaked (new crystal as suggested by
others), or whether it's an OS problem.

Just an idea.

As I said earlier, if the local clock (crystal, whatever) is
free-running (not synced to a standard reference using e.g. ntpd), it
*will not* stay accurate because it *cannot* be running at precisely the
proper rate all the time. No matter how often you set it. No matter how
often you tweak that little capacitor (which is very likely *not there*
to tweak in the first place. You can *never* get it "right on". The
question is not whether it is ever "correct", but only how fast it
diverges from "correct" whenever you stop messing with it. The
brilliance and elegance of NTP is that it can take that crappy,
imprecise, piece of temperature-sensitive quartz, and from it synthesize
an amazingly precise timekeeper.

Sounds OK to me, except that I just checked and reset my computah's
clock (I use a little Windoze utility called "NIStime" that gets the
time from NIST); it was off by about 5 minutes. Haven't synched it up
for at least 6 months, so I know my RTCC is at least that accurate.
(Running W2K, so I assume that no software process is adjusting my
clock.) Shouldn't most PC clocks be about that accurate? (Older MB,
forget exactly what, can find out if you're interested.)
Click to expand...
W2K has an SNTP client built in. Run cmd.exe then type 'net time /?'
for help.

I used to build OEM computers and have seen many different degrees of
inaccuracy both positive and negative.
 
"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:EuidncV-4e9X2xjXnZ2dnUVZ8kVi4p2d@bt.com...
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508a9cb9eddave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <O29hm.139722$OM.1328@newsfe06.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Does anyone know where in the world the school of half-arsed camerawork
and editing techniques is ? Must be a big place, as it seems that
networks won't take on anyone any more, who hasn't graduated from it
... :)
It was once thought that any camera work or editing which grabbed your
attention would distract from the story. But nowadays story seems often
less important than the action.
I'm of a generation brought up on radio drama - and still enjoy it.
Luckily in the UK there's still a fair bit. Both film and TV have to
work
hard to improve on your own imagination. ;-)

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

There's a lot of camera and editing techniques employed now, which I
think are the result of arty-farty thinking, and often at least
incongruous in a particular production, if not downright inappropriate.
One that seems to have come in recently, is where a show like for
instance "The Hotel Inspector", has a presenter who needs to present some
parts direct to camera. They used to look at the camera, and the good
ones could get the right 'expression' into their eyes to 'engage' the
viewer. You actually felt like they were talking to you alone. Now, they
seem to talk to some unknown person standing 10 feet behind the
camerman's right shoulder. This gives their eyes a strange 'disconnected'
look, and it feels sort of rude of them to appear to be talking to
someone else rather than me.

I also hate the waggling camera shots, the rapid zooms and de-zooms that
leave the focus lagging a couple of seconds behind, and the way that
cookery programmes are shot now, with the camera zooming in on a single
tomato seed in the mixing bowl, before a high speed de-zoom to some
arbitrary ingredient pile or implement, followed by another high speed
and defocussed zoom to the spot on the end of the presenter's nose,
followed by a rapid drop back into the mixing bowl. WTF are they trying
to show ? How is that sort of crap appropriate to that type of programme
?

And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong', changed the
way it's lit, presumably to try to give it some kind of dark edginess,
added the most inappropriate incidental music, and changed the characters
into moody hard-men. That show had a good format before, and wasn't
suffering falling ratings, so why try to fix what ain't broke ?

And it never starts on time ... :)

Arfa

Have you noticed that they've just discovered tilt shifting so that almost
every cop show you watch these days has long shots that look like lego
models and usually quite out of context - they do it cos they can.

Ron
Click to expand...
I hadn't particularly noticed that one, but I shall be looking for it now
....

Arfa
 
In article <Kfbhm.225069$xB.193120@newsfe10.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong',
Click to expand...
It's called HD. ;-)

changed the way it's lit, presumably to try to give it some kind of dark
edginess, added the most inappropriate incidental music, and changed the
characters into moody hard-men. That show had a good format before, and
wasn't suffering falling ratings, so why try to fix what ain't broke ?
Click to expand...
Oh, but it was. Rumour has it ITV wanted to pull it totally - but Talkback
Thames threatened to withdraw the other shows they make for ITV if they
did. Hence it changing to only one ep per week - and if the ratings don't
improve it will go by Xmas.

--
*If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
In article <EuidncV-4e9X2xjXnZ2dnUVZ8kVi4p2d@bt.com>,
Ron <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote:
Have you noticed that they've just discovered tilt shifting so that
almost every cop show you watch these days has long shots that look like
lego models and usually quite out of context - they do it cos they can.
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar with the term and don't know what you mean - can you
expand?

--
*Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
On 8/14/2009 6:52 AM Meat Plow spake thus:

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:53:23 -0700, David Nebenzahl
nobody@but.us.chickens>wrote:

Sounds OK to me, except that I just checked and reset my computah's
clock (I use a little Windoze utility called "NIStime" that gets the
time from NIST); it was off by about 5 minutes. Haven't synched it up
for at least 6 months, so I know my RTCC is at least that accurate.
(Running W2K, so I assume that no software process is adjusting my
clock.) Shouldn't most PC clocks be about that accurate? (Older MB,
forget exactly what, can find out if you're interested.)

W2K has an SNTP client built in. Run cmd.exe then type 'net time /?'
for help.

I used to build OEM computers and have seen many different degrees of
inaccuracy both positive and negative.
Click to expand...
Thanks; as Johnny Carson used to say, "I did not know that".

So how does NTP work in this case? I'm guessing it must contact some
entity over "the network" (meaning something external to my computer) in
order to determine the actual time, no? How does this work? Who does it
contact? (Short answer will be fine.) I do notice that one of the NTP
commands is

[\\computername] /SETSNTP[:ntp server list]

so I assume my computah keeps a list of servers "out there".

(So I guess if my computer is contacting a time server out there
periodically, but my clock was still off by 5 minutes, then the RTCC
must be *really* inaccurate.)

By the way, you can type "net time ?" to see the "help" info.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508ac7be38dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <Kfbhm.225069$xB.193120@newsfe10.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong',

It's called HD. ;-)
Click to expand...

Are you sure that's what it is ? Any HD that I've seen is just that. A
perfectly 'normal' looking picture, but with a higher resolution. Why should
a higher res camera change the tonal composition of the picture ? (assuming
that it is being shot on video). Looks more like they've changed from film
to video, or the other way round perhaps. Or are maybe using a video mode
that attempts to simulate film, something like that. I saw it before on the
programme when they did a couple of 'specials'. Didn't like it then, don't
like it now.


changed the way it's lit, presumably to try to give it some kind of dark
edginess, added the most inappropriate incidental music, and changed the
characters into moody hard-men. That show had a good format before, and
wasn't suffering falling ratings, so why try to fix what ain't broke ?

Oh, but it was. Rumour has it ITV wanted to pull it totally - but Talkback
Thames threatened to withdraw the other shows they make for ITV if they
did. Hence it changing to only one ep per week - and if the ratings don't
improve it will go by Xmas.

--
*If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. Not what I read, but as you are 'in the trade', probably more
accurate. Still, with what they've done to the programme now, I can't see it
picking up many new viewers, and I think that many of the existing ones
won't stick around long either. It has now lost all of its humour and
'feelgood' factor. It was sort of like a latter day Dixon of Dock Green in
some ways. I think it showed quite nicely that sometimes, an average
copper's day is more about helping old ladies cross the road, than screaming
down that road at 80 mph in the area car to get to some pervert's house
before he has a chance to murder the child he's abducted, and wipe his hard
drive. Every storyline now seems to be about a CID operation, with uniform
backing them up. All of the stories seem 'dark' and 'moody'. They've turned
the head of CID into an arsy, sulky, depressive, and Jack Meadows into a
growling grumpy old sod. If this is what the programme makers think is going
to save the programme, then I think it probably will be pulled by Christmas,
and sadly, not really missed.

Arfa
 
In article <4a8509e4$0$7465$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 8/13/2009 10:34 PM isw spake thus:

In article <4a844907$0$7473$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 8/13/2009 4:58 AM root spake thus:

isw <isw@witzend.com> wrote:

What the NTP process does is essentially to monitor the local clock
compared to a reference to understand just what its errors are, and
synthesize a "perfect" clock from it. The synthesized clock can remain
within a few microseconds (or better) of a reference timekeeper all the
time.

Maybe that works if you leave the computer on all the time. I started
the ntpd daemon early in the morning and by late afternoon the time
was, once again, way the hell off. Since I only care one time, one
day a week what the time is I have set up crontab entries to do the
job.

I see the problem, that seems to have been missed by those suggesting a
software kluge that periodically stuffs the clock with the right value.

Here's an idea I haven't seen in this thread yet: If you're really
interested in getting to the bottom of this problem, how about trying to
determine whether it's the actual clock (RTCC hardware) that's off, or
whether the OS is missing interrupts or there's some other software
problem?

How about booting the computah under some other OS, say Windoze or even
DOS, and running a utility that checks the RTCC for accuracy? (Don't
know of any, but I'm ass-uming that there are lots of such utilities out
there. Maybe there's even one for Linux.) That way you could know
whether the clock needs to be tweaked (new crystal as suggested by
others), or whether it's an OS problem.

Just an idea.

As I said earlier, if the local clock (crystal, whatever) is
free-running (not synced to a standard reference using e.g. ntpd), it
*will not* stay accurate because it *cannot* be running at precisely the
proper rate all the time. No matter how often you set it. No matter how
often you tweak that little capacitor (which is very likely *not there*
to tweak in the first place. You can *never* get it "right on". The
question is not whether it is ever "correct", but only how fast it
diverges from "correct" whenever you stop messing with it. The
brilliance and elegance of NTP is that it can take that crappy,
imprecise, piece of temperature-sensitive quartz, and from it synthesize
an amazingly precise timekeeper.

Sounds OK to me, except that I just checked and reset my computah's
clock (I use a little Windoze utility called "NIStime" that gets the
time from NIST); it was off by about 5 minutes. Haven't synched it up
for at least 6 months, so I know my RTCC is at least that accurate.
(Running W2K, so I assume that no software process is adjusting my
clock.) Shouldn't most PC clocks be about that accurate? (Older MB,
forget exactly what, can find out if you're interested.)
Click to expand...
Most crystals used in computers are within ten or 20 parts per million
of the frequency stamped on the case (you can get a lot more accurate
ones, but computers don't need it). AFAIR, those little cylindrical
"clock" crystals that run at 32,768 Hz are at least ten times poorer,
and far more temperature sensitive to boot. I think the *best* you could
expect from one of those without special treatment would be about a
minute a month.

Isaac
 
In article <Xenhm.120546$zh1.31935@newsfe04.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508ac7be38dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <Kfbhm.225069$xB.193120@newsfe10.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong',

It's called HD. ;-)
Click to expand...
It's shot using progressive scan so you get the movement artifacts as on
film. Thompson (Grass Valley) cameras recorded on Panasonic P2 using
solid state memory cards.

Are you sure that's what it is ? Any HD that I've seen is just that. A
perfectly 'normal' looking picture, but with a higher resolution.
Click to expand...
Trouble is they use fog filters on the cameras to reduce the resolution -
common on drama even in SD. And use long lenses most of the time to keep
the backgrounds soft.

Why should a higher res camera change the tonal composition of the
picture ? (assuming that it is being shot on video). Looks more like
they've changed from film to video, or the other way round perhaps.
Click to expand...
No - it's always been video.

Or are maybe using a video mode that attempts to simulate film,
something like that. I saw it before on the programme when they did a
couple of 'specials'. Didn't like it then, don't like it now.
Click to expand...
Tend to agree. But most production people hate video and will do anything
to make it look 'different'. They've also changed most if not all the
Lighting Directors. The Bill used to be known for using available light -
or making it look like it was. It now looks 'lit'.


changed the way it's lit, presumably to try to give it some kind of
dark edginess, added the most inappropriate incidental music, and
changed the characters into moody hard-men. That show had a good
format before, and wasn't suffering falling ratings, so why try to
fix what ain't broke ?

Oh, but it was. Rumour has it ITV wanted to pull it totally - but
Talkback Thames threatened to withdraw the other shows they make for
ITV if they did. Hence it changing to only one ep per week - and if
the ratings don't improve it will go by Xmas.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Not what I read, but as you are 'in the trade', probably more
accurate. Still, with what they've done to the programme now, I can't
see it picking up many new viewers, and I think that many of the
existing ones won't stick around long either.
Click to expand...
That's always the problem when you change the style.

It has now lost all of
its humour and 'feelgood' factor. It was sort of like a latter day
Dixon of Dock Green in some ways. I think it showed quite nicely that
sometimes, an average copper's day is more about helping old ladies
cross the road, than screaming down that road at 80 mph in the area car
to get to some pervert's house before he has a chance to murder the
child he's abducted, and wipe his hard drive. Every storyline now seems
to be about a CID operation, with uniform backing them up. All of the
stories seem 'dark' and 'moody'. They've turned the head of CID into an
arsy, sulky, depressive, and Jack Meadows into a growling grumpy old
sod. If this is what the programme makers think is going to save the
programme, then I think it probably will be pulled by Christmas, and
sadly, not really missed.
Click to expand...
Sadly the advertisers don't want the older audience. They want youngsters
who they think have more income to spend on their products. Hence them
spending a much lower percentage of their budget on TV than used to be.

Arfa
Click to expand...
--
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508b196350dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <Xenhm.120546$zh1.31935@newsfe04.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508ac7be38dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <Kfbhm.225069$xB.193120@newsfe10.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong',

It's called HD. ;-)

It's shot using progressive scan so you get the movement artifacts as on
film. Thompson (Grass Valley) cameras recorded on Panasonic P2 using
solid state memory cards.

Are you sure that's what it is ? Any HD that I've seen is just that. A
perfectly 'normal' looking picture, but with a higher resolution.

Trouble is they use fog filters on the cameras to reduce the resolution -
common on drama even in SD. And use long lenses most of the time to keep
the backgrounds soft.

Why should a higher res camera change the tonal composition of the
picture ? (assuming that it is being shot on video). Looks more like
they've changed from film to video, or the other way round perhaps.

No - it's always been video.

Or are maybe using a video mode that attempts to simulate film,
something like that. I saw it before on the programme when they did a
couple of 'specials'. Didn't like it then, don't like it now.

Tend to agree. But most production people hate video and will do anything
to make it look 'different'. They've also changed most if not all the
Lighting Directors. The Bill used to be known for using available light -
or making it look like it was. It now looks 'lit'.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes. That's it I think. I was trying to figure just what they had done.
I always try to shoot photos where possible with available light, and always
have both with 35mm film, and latterly, digital. Personally, I think it
gives a more 'natural' look. So in the case of The Bill, it's probably a
two-way thing. Different lighting directors who believe in artificially
lighting the scene, and a desire by the writers / producers / directors (??)
to try to make it look 'edgier' to go with their new post 9pm dark
storylines ...


changed the way it's lit, presumably to try to give it some kind of
dark edginess, added the most inappropriate incidental music, and
changed the characters into moody hard-men. That show had a good
format before, and wasn't suffering falling ratings, so why try to
fix what ain't broke ?

Oh, but it was. Rumour has it ITV wanted to pull it totally - but
Talkback Thames threatened to withdraw the other shows they make for
ITV if they did. Hence it changing to only one ep per week - and if
the ratings don't improve it will go by Xmas.


Hmmm. Not what I read, but as you are 'in the trade', probably more
accurate. Still, with what they've done to the programme now, I can't
see it picking up many new viewers, and I think that many of the
existing ones won't stick around long either.

That's always the problem when you change the style.

It has now lost all of
its humour and 'feelgood' factor. It was sort of like a latter day
Dixon of Dock Green in some ways. I think it showed quite nicely that
sometimes, an average copper's day is more about helping old ladies
cross the road, than screaming down that road at 80 mph in the area car
to get to some pervert's house before he has a chance to murder the
child he's abducted, and wipe his hard drive. Every storyline now seems
to be about a CID operation, with uniform backing them up. All of the
stories seem 'dark' and 'moody'. They've turned the head of CID into an
arsy, sulky, depressive, and Jack Meadows into a growling grumpy old
sod. If this is what the programme makers think is going to save the
programme, then I think it probably will be pulled by Christmas, and
sadly, not really missed.

Sadly the advertisers don't want the older audience. They want youngsters
who they think have more income to spend on their products. Hence them
spending a much lower percentage of their budget on TV than used to be.

Arfa

--
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Click to expand...
 
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:24:19 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508ac7be38dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <Kfbhm.225069$xB.193120@newsfe10.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong',

It's called HD. ;-)


Are you sure that's what it is ? Any HD that I've seen is just that. A
perfectly 'normal' looking picture, but with a higher resolution. Why should
a higher res camera change the tonal composition of the picture ? (assuming
that it is being shot on video). Looks more like they've changed from film
to video, or the other way round perhaps. Or are maybe using a video mode
that attempts to simulate film, something like that. I saw it before on the
programme when they did a couple of 'specials'. Didn't like it then, don't
like it now.
Click to expand...
My Pana 51" has a different color matrix for SD and HD.
 
On 8/14/2009 11:46 PM isw spake thus:

In article <4a8509e4$0$7465$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

Sounds OK to me, except that I just checked and reset my computah's
clock (I use a little Windoze utility called "NIStime" that gets the
time from NIST); it was off by about 5 minutes. Haven't synched it up
for at least 6 months, so I know my RTCC is at least that accurate.
(Running W2K, so I assume that no software process is adjusting my
clock.) Shouldn't most PC clocks be about that accurate? (Older MB,
forget exactly what, can find out if you're interested.)

Most crystals used in computers are within ten or 20 parts per million
of the frequency stamped on the case (you can get a lot more accurate
ones, but computers don't need it). AFAIR, those little cylindrical
"clock" crystals that run at 32,768 Hz are at least ten times poorer,
and far more temperature sensitive to boot. I think the *best* you could
expect from one of those without special treatment would be about a
minute a month.
Click to expand...
Hope I'm not belaboring the point here. I just ran "net time" again and
got the error message "Could not locate a time-server". So I assume that
even if that process is running on my computer, as someone else here
asserted, it's not doing anything to my RTC, as there are no
time-servers to query (that it knows about). Therefore, the time my
computer displays is the actual RTC value. Therefore, it seems to be at
least as accurate as you've stated (about a minute a month), which
actually seems pretty damn good to me. If it gets off by 12 minutes a
year, resetting the thing once annually would yield a clock that should
be close enough for most folks' purposes.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
 
"Meat Plow" <meat@petitmorte.net> wrote in message
news:3230kb.2rp.19.3@news.alt.net...
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:24:19 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:508ac7be38dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <Kfbhm.225069$xB.193120@newsfe10.ams2>,
Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And now that "The Bill" has got a 9 o'clock slot, they've changed the
shooting medium to something that looks altogether 'wrong',

It's called HD. ;-)


Are you sure that's what it is ? Any HD that I've seen is just that. A
perfectly 'normal' looking picture, but with a higher resolution. Why
should
a higher res camera change the tonal composition of the picture ?
(assuming
that it is being shot on video). Looks more like they've changed from film
to video, or the other way round perhaps. Or are maybe using a video mode
that attempts to simulate film, something like that. I saw it before on
the
programme when they did a couple of 'specials'. Didn't like it then, don't
like it now.

My Pana 51" has a different color matrix for SD and HD.
Click to expand...
Explain some more ?

Arfa
 
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