Why do I get electricity bills? (another thought-provoking m

[Paul Burridge]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
<null@example.net> wrote:

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion." Care to
participate? ;-)
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:27:45 +0000, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

No European countries run on 230V to the best of my knowledge.

British mains electricity used to be 240V, until the EU <spit!>
'harmonised' the level across EUrope to 230V. Unless of course, you
know better....
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:27:45 +0000, Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

No European countries run on 230V to the best of my knowledge.

British mains electricity used to be 240V, until the EU <spit!
'harmonised' the level across EUrope to 230V. Unless of course, you
know better....

I do. The UK is still 240. They didn't change the voltage, only what
they said the voltage was. Its a Yes-Minister one.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net
wrote:

Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E
are in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E,
during the negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X
-1 Amp = +168 Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a
negative is positive.

Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

Polarity is no more than direction of flow. They send you electrons on
one lead, then electrons on the other lead, making twice the number of
electrons, so you gvetting them for 1/2 price as they only count them
the once

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Pooh Bear]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:27:45 +0000, Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

No European countries run on 230V to the best of my knowledge.

British mains electricity used to be 240V, until the EU <spit!
'harmonised' the level across EUrope to 230V. Unless of course, you
know better....

The only thing that actually *changed* was a bit of paper.


Graham

 

[Roger Hamlett]

"Kevin Aylward" <salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8gtld.9824$P7.6326@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

Paul Burridge wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:27:45 +0000, Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

No European countries run on 230V to the best of my knowledge.

British mains electricity used to be 240V, until the EU <spit!
'harmonised' the level across EUrope to 230V. Unless of course, you
know better....

I do. The UK is still 240. They didn't change the voltage, only what
they said the voltage was. Its a Yes-Minister one.
It has changed a _little_ in some places. The switch was from 240v, with

tighter +/- margins, to 230v, with larger margins. The margin allowed, was
large enough, to include a normally set up 240v, or 220v system in a
country. However some areas of the network were outside these margins, and
have gradually been replaced, and on new areas, the tap change voltages,
are now designed to be closer to 230v, than 240v.
If you have incoming power monitoring equipment, you will find that
typically the voltage has fallen by a couple of volts over the last few
years.

Best Wishes

 

[beerbarrel]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Don't pay it! They will stop sending them.

 

[Richard Henry]

"Paul Burridge" <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sdecp0d0stbmcodsef9m9sq5l9dlrvf2q0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
null@example.net> wrote:

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion."

No, it's not.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:52:59 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

However, when you do turn on a switch you're providing a way for
_their_ electricity to get back to _them_ and stop beating it's head
^^^^
Tsk, tsk, tsk... hangs head in shame _______/

Yes, unusual for you. Watch out for Rich.. ;-)

against an open switch, so it seems to me that they should pay _you_
for doing them the courtesy of returning their electricity.

That's a pretty solid legal argument. I'll probably incorporate it
somewhere into my Writ.

--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:38:44 -0800, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com>
wrote:

"Paul Burridge" <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sdecp0d0stbmcodsef9m9sq5l9dlrvf2q0@4ax.com...
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
null@example.net> wrote:

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion."

No, it's not.

Audience: "Oh yes it is!"

--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Well, if this isn't a gag, then you have to pay because of the
effort required to shove all those electrons down the electron tube
to your house, and scoop them all up from the ground when they
come back.

The guy that operates the crank refuses to work for free.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:21:49 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.

You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.

This is not true either. You are charged for THE ENERGY REQUIRED TO
SHOVE THEM THROUGH YOUR SYSTEM.

The electrons are incidental, very much like the push rod that connects
the piston to the crankshaft.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:51:48 +0000, Scott wrote:

Well, you can look at it this way...It's basically a series circuit,
from generator, through all customer houses, and back to the generator.
You may be returning ALMOST all of the current coming into your house,
minus resistive losses, but if you divert that voltage and current
through one of your appliances, the voltage and current (hence power)
will actually be doing some work. Electricity, while being USED in your
house, is like an employee of YOURS...it is doing WORK, so legally you
must pay the worker's wages for work performed. Just be glad you don't
have to pay it's social security taxes, fed and state taxes, health
insurance, worker's comp insurance premiums, 401K contributions, etc.
Starts to make electricity (employee) sound cheap.

Oh, you do, you can be quite assured of that! That's why electricity

is so exorbitant! ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:44:26 +0000, Paul Burridge wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
null@example.net> wrote:

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion." Care to
participate? ;-)

Well, yeah, except that it's so simple to "explain away" by just
saying that you're not paying for the electrons themselves that
are just passing through, but the energy required to get them
to do that passage.

They've got the motor, you've got the wagon. The electrons
are just a medium, conceptually indistinguishable from the
way a V-belt transfers energy.

I've said this in other FUs kinda ad nauseam, tonight.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Terry Given]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:38:44 -0800, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com
wrote:


"Paul Burridge" <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sdecp0d0stbmcodsef9m9sq5l9dlrvf2q0@4ax.com...

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:18:28 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
null@example.net> wrote:


Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

It's a "thought-provoking metaphysical discussion."

No, it's not.


Audience: "Oh yes it is!"

Audience: Oh no its not, you're either playing silly buggers or
demonstrating a deep lack of understanding.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 04:50:48 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
<null@example.net> wrote:

The electrons are incidental, very much like the push rod that connects
the piston to the crankshaft.

Thanks for the tip, Rich. I'll remove the push rods from my car engine
and save a bit of weight.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 04:59:46 GMT, Rich The Philosophizer
<null@example.net> wrote:

I would really believe this is a gag if you hadn't already shown that
you have the mentality of a neocon.

??
Example?
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Markus Mandl]

Bob Stephens schrieb:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge wrote:


The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?


What you want to do is take an extension cord, plug it into an outlet on
one side of the house, and plug the other end into an outlet on the other
side (carefully observing polarity), thereby sending their own electricity
back to them, running the wattmeter backwards and nulling out any billable
KWH.


Bob

BTW, just in case, this is a *JOKE*, and it wasn't me telling it.

It might just work if you plug it into your neighbour's house...

Markus

 

[Scott]

I guess I'm missing the logic of your argument. Why do you think you
owe them for the positive half of the cycle and they owe you for the
negative half cycle? Both half cycles produce (positive) work in your
appliances, so you owe for both halves of the cycles. I guess that if
you feel that strongly about the issue, you can always disconnect from
the mains and make your own power from solar panels, wind generators,
methane digesters, fuel cells, wood and steam, gas generator, etc. I'm
not sure where in the world you are, but here in the USA, you are not
FORCED into being served by any electric utility. A great place to
start on that issue is http://www.homepower.com and order their
magazine. Tons of people use "renewable" energy sources to power their
homes either in full or in part.

I happen to work for a power utility and we are installing methane
digesters on large farms in the area. Cow poop in equals electricity
and fertilizer out.

YOU can install your own digester, and if, for example, you live in a
farming community with a good supply of manure, you could form an
electric cooperative whereby the MEMBERS of the coop drop off manure,
you shovel it into the digester, methane is produced through
decomposition, collect the gas, use it to fire a generator set and sell
or provide the electricity to the members...By the way, it takes about
750 cows to provide enough manure to have a continuous supply of gas to
fire the generators and produce approximately 750 KW of power...enough
to supply the needs for approximately 50 homes at full load in each
house (240 Volts at 60 Amps). If each house is only using say 5 KW at
any instance, 150 homes could be served from the above noted digester.
You can form your own power plant if you desire (at least here in the
USA)...


Scott

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net
wrote:


Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.


Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!

 

[Scott]

Sounds like Einstein's theory of relativity. It all depends on the
point of reference.

The power company could be providing YOU the courtesy of having
electrons piled up at your open switch and your appliances are just
waiting for you to close the switch so that they can do some kind of
work to give meaning to their lives.

Scott



John Fields wrote:

However, when you do turn on a switch you're providing a way for
_their_ electricity to get back to _them_ and stop beating it's head
against an open switch, so it seems to me that they should pay _you_
for doing them the courtesy of returning their electricity.