Why do I get electricity bills? (another thought-provoking m

[Paul Burridge]

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, the renowned Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.

No, you don't use hardly any leakage current to earth (RCD), and you
don't use more than the maximum trip current between lines (MCB). An
RCBO is an MCB + RCD, to use the Brit terms.

The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.

But the RMS value is 230VAC.

I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Why don't you ring up the power company engineers and see if you can
get them to see things your way? Could save a lot of money.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[News]

"Paul Burridge" <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bre9p0t3e6vf6asvtcd9mk98of084siu4u@4ax.com...

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

There is a minimum charge, regardless of energy usage.

Bill W0IYH

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

---
For a purely resistive load, since P = I˛R, the sign of the current
going into the load gets squared, so that when it goes in negative it
comes out positive.

For a reactive load, you don't get charged for the imaginary current,
(at least in the US we don't) so you get charged for what you use.

--
John Fields

 

[Bill Turner]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

_________________________________________________________

Quite right. Call the electric company and tell them you want only
half-cycles starting immediately. If they persist in sending you an
average of zero, you will start paying your bill with a combination of
payment and charge back. That should straighten them out.

And when your electricity gets cut off, you won't even notice the
difference anyway.

--
Bill W6WRT

 

[Don Pearce]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:38:08 +0000, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:56:34 GMT, donaldun@spamfreepearce.uk.com (Don
Pearce) wrote:

You don't get billed for current, you get billed for energy - in the
UK the measure is the kilowatt hour.

Hey, whose side are you on? ;-)

Multiply your voltage by your
current instant by instant, take the average (gives you power) and
multiply that by the duration in hours and you have your consumption.

They don't bill me instant-by-instant; they bill me for the power they
claim I've used over the course of a three-monthly period. Since power
is the product of voltage and current (and I've proved earlier that
both are zero) I'm being charged for electricity that I've not
actually used. The current goes in and out of the house unchanged.
It's all returned to the power company. All I've done is borrow it.
And you can bet that when they get their current back they don't just
dump it to ground; oh no. They re-sell it again and again and again to
other suckers like me. We're all paying multiple sums for the *same*
lousy current that's probably been circulating for years.
The power companies have been scamming us for decades! I can't believe
I've only just woken up to it.

Aww c'mon - if you multiply a positive voltage by a positive current
you get positive power. If you multiply negative voltage by negative
current you get positive power.

Anyway - are you cleaning and refurbishing those amps before you give
them back? They wear out, you know.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

 

[Markus Mandl]

Paul Burridge schrieb:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Because free energy is against one of the laws of thermodynamics - can't
remember which...
As everybody knows, you get fined for doing illegal things
That's what your power company is doing.

Regards
Markus

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:48:00 GMT, donaldun@spamfreepearce.uk.com (Don
Pearce) wrote:

Aww c'mon - if you multiply a positive voltage by a positive current
you get positive power. If you multiply negative voltage by negative
current you get positive power.

Sorry, Don, you obviously haven't thought this through. Since *all*
their current is returned, I cannot have used *any* of it. Whatever
the voltage might be, multiplying it by zero Amps still gives zero
power!

Anyway - are you cleaning and refurbishing those amps before you give
them back?

Why should I? That's *their* job. I pay enough!

They wear out, you know.

You mean they like lose their charge after a while? That would make
sense as I've found as years have gone by, I've had to turn the
heating up more and more. The thieving bastards!


--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Luhan Monat]

Paul Burridge wrote:

The power company run a line to my house.

Hey, maybe I can make the same argument to my water/sewage provider???

--
Luhan Monat: luhanis(at)yahoo(dot)com
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"The Future is not what it used to be..."

 

[ChrisGibboGibson]

Paul Burridge wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

I think the confusion lies in the terminology used.

Use the correct terminology and all the confusion goes away.

Tell your power company to charge you by what they actually send you, ie
electrons.

Agree that you will return to them any that you do not use.

Agree a small interest charge for the loan of the electrons. Just like
borrowing money from the bank.

You won't get free energy but it should be cheaper.

Gibbo

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:57:27 -0700, Luhan Monat <fake@you.out> wrote:

Paul Burridge wrote:
The power company run a line to my house.

Hey, maybe I can make the same argument to my water/sewage provider???

Certainly. If your "out pipe" is the same diameter as your "in pipe."
;->

--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On 12 Nov 2004 19:35:34 GMT, chrisgibbogibson@aol.com
(ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:

Tell your power company to charge you by what they actually send you, ie
electrons.

.... And insist on a totally accurate reading! Brilliant!

Thanks.

p.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[ChrisGibboGibson]

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

Please forgive my naivete, but this is a joke, right?

Well, assume it isn't a joke and tell him where he's (if you think he is)
wrong.

Gibbo

 

[Ross Herbert]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:56:34 GMT, donaldun@spamfreepearce.uk.com (Don
Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:42:19 +0000, Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

The power company run a line to my house. They supply me with
electricity. This amounts to a 230V, 65A facility at the distribution
board in a cupboard under the stairs. I run all my stuff from that
board. The board contains several RCBOs that trip-out in the event of
any leakage current being sensed. If current in = current out; they're
happy and won't trip. Because they don't trip out, I conclude I don't
use any current.
The voltage supplied is 230VAC RMS. Since this is alternating between
equal positive and negative half-cycles, the average level of this
voltage supply is zero.
I use no current and they effectively supply no voltage. Why do I get
billed for electricity usage when I clearly can't have used any?

You don't get billed for current, you get billed for energy - in the
UK the measure is the kilowatt hour. Multiply your voltage by your
current instant by instant, take the average (gives you power) and
multiply that by the duration in hours and you have your consumption.

Er, ????

You get billed for "Power Consumed" which is covered under the
umbrella of "Energy". Now POWER is consumed when a voltage potential
causes a current to flow in a circuit. If that circuit happens to be
through a heater or refrigerator then CURRENT flows. Since the supply
voltage is constant (or should be) then the load requirement
determines the current which flows and in some cases it will be small
and in others it will be large. Now since CURRENT x VOLTAGE = POWER,
you do get charged for CURRENT usage and the amount you get charged
varies dependant upon how much current flows and for how long.

 

[Ross Herbert]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:48:00 GMT, donaldun@spamfreepearce.uk.com (Don
Pearce) wrote:

Aww c'mon - if you multiply a positive voltage by a positive current
you get positive power. If you multiply negative voltage by negative
current you get positive power.

Sorry, Don, you obviously haven't thought this through. Since *all*
their current is returned, I cannot have used *any* of it. Whatever
the voltage might be, multiplying it by zero Amps still gives zero
power!

Paul, perhaps you should be a politician...

What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc. Because the current flows in your appliances it
places a load on their generating plant. Because millions of houses
are also doing the same thing at the same time the load on the
generating plant is enormous and in order to supply the large amount
of current required by all users (yes, even though they do get it back
in the return feed), the generating plant has to be enormous itself.
Now, power stations aren't something you pick off a tree, they have to
be built and maintained and they consume "energy" in order to be able
to generate the large amount of current which flows.

Now even a dill can see that the cost of building and running the
plant has to be paid for and the cost of doing this is usually
amortised over a period of 15 or 20 years and after that it is pure
profit. So you are paying for the current which flows through your
systems to generate heat, cool and cook your food, run your stereo
etc, etc. Now despite your fallacious arguments about supply voltage
summing to zero and the supply authority getting all their current
back after having gone through your house, you can't argue that you
shouldn't be charged purely for no other reason than the law stating
the conservation of energy.

"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but may only be changed
from one form to another."

The supply authority is changing one form of energy to another in
order to generate electrical energy and you are changing the energy
they supply into other forms required to generate heat, cooling etc in
your household. I can tell you this, converting energy from one form
to another doesn't come free and not even a politician would be stupid
enough to believe that it does.

Anyway - are you cleaning and refurbishing those amps before you give
them back?

Why should I? That's *their* job. I pay enough!

They wear out, you know.

You mean they like lose their charge after a while? That would make
sense as I've found as years have gone by, I've had to turn the
heating up more and more. The thieving bastards!

 

[Carl D. Smith]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:57:13 -0600, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

For a purely resistive load, since P = I˛R, the sign of the current
going into the load gets squared, so that when it goes in negative it
comes out positive.

Seems like there's an opportunity for free energy kooks there.
Put positive and negative current in alternately, averaging zero,
but get all positive power.

 

[Ian Jackson]

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.

You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.
Ian.
--

 

[Roy Lewallen]

Ian Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:09:35 +0000, Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:


What you are charged for is the use of the current as it flows through
your appliances etc.


You are not charged for using it. You are charged for BORROWING it.
Ian.

Yes, there's an extra fee if you keep any half cycles without returning
them on the following half cycles. It's called the Semi-Unused Cycle
Kinetic Electricity Return fee.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:42:11 +0000, Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net>
wrote:

Huh? It's only 5:30AM here and I just got up but, the ONLY time you
aren't consuming power is at the zero crossing of the voltage and
current sine waves (assuming a purely resistive load where I and E are
in phase). Since you are paying for power, which is P=I X E, during the
negative half cycle, you have, for example, -168 Volts X -1 Amp = +168
Watts...try it on a calculator...negative times a negative is positive.

Thanks, Scott. So you're basically agreeing with me. I owe the power
co. for the positive cycles they send me; they owe *me* for the
negative ones. Since they are equal and opposite, they cancel each
other out. Overall, then, zero billing justified.
We are being conned!!!
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.