Why do circuit breakers go up for on and down for off?...

On 2023-02-15 16:50, Scott Lurndal wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> writes:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 13:54:41 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-11 13:24, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 12:03:39 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-11 10:34, Brian Gaff wrote:
I\'m sure the modern ones will work any way around you wanted. If you
don\'t
like it simply do a head stand before you change them.

My main question, however is why are some breakers so sensitive they
trip
more often than others?
I think they are way too complex now with earth leakage as well as
just
looking for overloads.

Here all houses have mandatorily a whole house RCD. Since many years.

And if you don\'t have one you what? Go to jail?

You do not get electricity.

Remind me never to live in that communist state. It really is none of anyone\'s business how safe you are.

It is, however, their business if the electrical problem
causes a fire that burns down half the town, or takes out
a condominium project or flats.

Even if it only burns his house, it causes work for the emergency
workers that they don\'t need.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:33:36 -0000, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com
wrote:
On 13/02/2023 03:59, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:08:57 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Radios of that era had a setting named \"phone\". And a socket. You
connected the output of the \"electric gramophone\" pickup to the phone

Every mains valve radio had a \"Gram\" or \"PU\" socket with switching,
usually combined with the waveband switch.

Did valve radios use Cockcroft-Walton multipliers?

No, transformers for AC mains, dropper resistors for DC, HT/LT batteries
for portables and vibrator power packs for car radios. (Or valves with
12V HT and a power transistor for hybrids.)

Mine has no output jacks or cords.  Just a small nice wooden cabinet
with no holes, no jacks, maybe one 12\" wire as a transmitting antenna (I
have to go look again.  Not sure if there\'s a wire.)

Maybe 14 or 16\" square and 5\" high.

It might be from the 30\'s after my mother got married in 1929.

input of the radio, which was actually the audio amplifier section.

The radio could have a switch to disable the radio section or not, in
which case you would have to \"tune out\" the stations.

I have been lucky enough that there was no strong station at the
frequency.  I left a note inside so I or the next owner doesn\'t have to
hunt for it.

I don\'t think that would have been legal, certainly not in the UK.

I doubt it was illegal at that short a distance.   You can (or could
recently) buy a transmitter to convert something (mp3?) into FM to go to
your car stereo.  It wouldn\'t get far outside the car.

The low power FM transmitters came later. Recently I bought Thomson
wireless headphones that use UHF and reach out into the car park: much
better than Bluetooth and with no latency.

They used to be very stuffy about home transmitters in the past: If you
learnt Morse code you could become a radio ham. I think you could have a
radio controlled toy running at 27 MHz, though might have needed a
licence. People imported 27 MHz walkie-talkies but they were illegal to
use. I think they eventually made CB radios legal.

--
Max Demian
 
On 2/15/2023 10:33 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
The goal for this approach is 2kW average primary energy usage of all forms, ie 48kWh/day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000-watt_society

But the number is largely arbitrary.

Let\'s pick the average energy consumed, per capita, during the
Holy Roman Empire -- estimated at 500W. Surely, 500W back then
should be just as acceptable now?

Using an average -- without justifying the actual value -- is
just silly. It could be too high *or* too low (the folks
in Bangladesh exist on 300W)

After all, the average human has one breast and one testicle!
 
On 18/02/2023 12:37, Max Demian wrote:
On 17/02/2023 21:04, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 16:57:19 -0000, Max Demian
max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 15/02/2023 14:48, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Mind you the whole idea of metal wheels on metal tracks is crazy.  If I
drive my car with bald tyres, I\'m breaking the law.

Works though; provided there are no \"leaves on the line\".

(Something to with the friction between similar metals I think.)

There\'s fuck all friction, which is why they want the cars to wait for
the train at a level crossing, and not the other way round.  And why
the new tunnel the Germans are building couldn\'t go right underground
and had to be installed on the bottom of the ocean, because the
pathetic toy trains couldn\'t handle the incline.  This is the 21st
century, we have cars.  Public transport is for chavs.

If there were no friction between train wheels and track acceleration
and braking wouldn\'t happen.

The reason railway tracks are so level is so that the engines can have
the minimum power to pull the train. Very steep inclines would require
extra locomotives to be put on to get up the hills.
Steam locos were not rated in horsepower, but \'tractive effort\' . How
many tons of pull they could generate before the wheels slipped.

That\'s why they had a lot of driving wheels - at least four, generally 6
and up to 8.

At a given slope even the loco alone cant get up it which is where rack
and pinion railways come in.

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.
 
On 2023-02-15 16:41, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 12:54:12 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-15 07:58, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 14 Feb 2023 19:13:35 +0100, \"Carlos E. R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-14 18:55, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:48:29 +0000, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 11/02/2023 15:56, John Larkin wrote:
But I guess 240v is a lot nastier than 120, so more ground fault
sensing makes sense in europe.

It\'s a trade-off. More shocks with 240V; more fires with the higher
currents required at 120V.

Andy

If the breakers are sized for the wiring, there is no fire hazard
there. Romex doesn\'t get hot at rated current. Fires are started by
appliances like space heaters, which wouldn\'t be affected by the
voltage. Or overloaded extension cords, arguably a lesser hazard at
higher voltage.

Very old houses had knob-and-tube wiring with twisted junctions, in
walls and exposed in attics, and people tended to screw in bigger
glass fuses than the wire could handle. That was, sometimes still is,
a big fire hazard.


In my house, or rather my parent\'s house, fuses were just a strand of
wire wrapped around two metal screws or some metal something. When a
fuse blows, you just put another wire. It it blows again, they put two
strands. Next, they put three... you see the problem.

Of course you can use sealed fuses, or calibrated fuse wire (they sold
that in the UK). But it is just safer to use calibrated breakers which
\"blow\" and you just throw them back. Of course they can be intentionally
\"sabotaged\".

IN NYCity, my apartment building and I\'m sure most apartment buildings,
rentals in general, used Fustats. It\'s an insert that screws into the
original fuse holder (which I think used the same thread as a
lightbulb), but the inserts have a different pitch internal thread for
each amperage. So in the basement, I could only use one 20-amp Fustat,
and in my apartment, I could only use two 15-amp Fustats.

I have seen them.
I had no idea about the different threads.

Aren\'t they a bit expensive? Amazon doesn\'t help, because it wants to
ship to Spain before citing a price in those I find.

They certainly are now, Including for the USA.


Each old switch or socket in my house has one of these:

https://images.app.goo.gl/3wm7PoAi8p7HPDgU7

Here glass fuses like these are used in electronics. For AC they have
big brown cartridge fuses, almost as big as a cigar.

Ah, of course, you need more amps. The biggest I have is rated 6A. I
don\'t trust those cables and sockets for more than that.


And the whole house had this:

https://images.app.goo.gl/3wm7PoAi8p7HPDgU7

YOu repeated the same link.

Oh.

Ok, it was a google link to the photo of the next link:

Often in one, maybe all, of my computers,
ctrl-c woldn\'t work, even though C worked ant ctrl worked. I\'d use
ctrl-c but it didnt\' change what was in the clipboard.

In the site you can move to the inside photo:

https://es.wallapop.com/item/portafusibles-de-porcelana-con-fusible-doble-de-la-854489168

Did I mention that I can read Spanish. Esp. technical and scientfific
Spabish Those wires are the equivalent of putting a penny in the
fusebox. And btw, another big advantage of Fustats is that you can\'t
use a penny that way. The bottom has one connector, but the other one
is under the lip of the fustat and it conacts the top of the adapter.
The inside wall of the adapter is non-conductive.

The rationale is that if you put one strand of wire, it will fuse before
the 10 strands of the whole cable :)



Fustat was the first capital of Egypt under Muslim rule, and the
historical centre of modern Cairo -- oops, wrong link.

https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-Fustat-Buss-Fuse-Pack/dp/B01DWBTZOA
$70 for 4?!. They weren\'t anywhere near this expensive in the 70\'s,
even allowing for 70\'s prices. They only sell this one size, which
seems to be 8 amps. What kind of a value is 8 amps? The ones that
never sold out?

Menards has Cooper Bussmann® Tamper-Proof Fustat Heavy Duty Plug Fuse
6.25 amps for $4.88 each. What kind of a value is 6.25 amps?

Maybe when multiplied by the voltage it gives a nice power figure.

No. I\'m sure now these are the ones that never got sold when they were
under production. The ones people bought were the same sizes as circuit
breakers are now 15, 20, 30, 40, 50?. There are no home circuits that
use 6.25. -- One page I saw still sold the adapters for 15, 20,30**.
Those have to be left-overs too. guess those **But not the fustats
that fit those adapters.

6.25A * 127 ≈ 800W :)

127 was a standard voltage here some time...

I think circuit breakers must have driven fustat out of business,
although I don\'t see how that can happen and what will all the buildings
that use them do. Not everyone is ready to put in breakers. Big
expense. (And the adapters are designed with barbs so they can\'t be
screwed out....

No idea.

Here all houses have circuit breakers.


I panicked for nothing. When I googled Fustat I found very little but
when I googled Type-s fuse there is more:
https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-S-15-Time-Delay-Dual-Element-Rejection/dp/B000BPIM7C
$16 for four. Besides Type-S, they are also called \"rejection base\",
maybe because of the different threads. This one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002GD2BLU/ref=sspa_dk_detail_3 uses both
names, Bussman and Fustat. I don\'t understand why others don\'t use the
word Fustat.


BTW, I\'ve also seen for sale little circuit breakers that screw into the
socket meant for a fuse. They have a little reset button in the middle.
Because they seem uncommon, I\'ve always assumed thay weren\'t that good.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Cooper-Bussmann-15-Amp-Plug-Type-Circuit-Breaker-BP-MB-15/100348278
Also made by Cooper Bussmann.

Makes sense.

I used to, had to power the whole 6-room apartments, including sometimes
the last couple years a small air conditioner, on 20 amps. Only blew
the fuse about 4 times.


My air conditioning unit is \"inverter\" type. Max power I think is
800Watts, not sure now. Say 1 KW. When the room has reached a stable
temp, it draws as little as 200 watts.

I\'ll hve to learn about inverters some time.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
On 18/02/2023 12:43, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:58:47 -0000, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:33:36 +0000, Max Demian
max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 13/02/2023 03:59, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:08:57 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Radios of that era had a setting named \"phone\". And a socket. You
connected the output of the \"electric gramophone\" pickup to the phone

Every mains valve radio had a \"Gram\" or \"PU\" socket with switching,
usually combined with the waveband switch.

Every AC tube radio....   :)

Mains was always AC wasn\'t it?

If course it wasn\'t (in the UK). Mains was AC or DC, and 120V (or so) to
250V (or so).

Mains was always AC post WWII and probably post the advent of consumer
tube radios and IIRC was always 240VAC post WWII.

\"The Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 merged the 600-odd local generating
companies into area boards, who in turn were centralised into the
Central Electricity Board by the Electricity Supply Act 1925. That is
when the voltage was standardised at 240V, and the National Grid created.

(But DC persisted, in some areas as late as the mid 60s. Refrigerators,
Vacuum Cleaners, Sewing Machines, Electric Drills, Radios and TVs were
available with universal input. They would all work on AC or DC 240V
(one or two DC areas were only 180V, like Dundee or Exeter))\"


--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx
 
On 2023-02-15 18:38, Sam E wrote:
On 2/15/23 09:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-15 16:27, NY wrote:
On 15/02/2023 14:56, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:38:43 -0000, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:
On 2/11/23 04:56, Ian Jackson wrote:

...

What about water taps? Most turn anticlockwise to unscrew the tap so
as to increase the pressure, but a few go the opposite way. And there
seems to be no consensus as to whether the cold or the hot tap should
be on the left: doesn\'t matter as long its separate taps with
coloured inserts, but some modern mixer taps, which rotate to vary
temperature and rock back and forth to vary water flow, have no
indication as to which way to rotate to get hot water - and sometimes
you have to choose a rotation arbitrarily and wait: if the water
remains cold and never runs warm after a while, try the other way :)

In Spain there are conventions on that. Hot is left. But German taps
(Grohe brand) assume hot is right. They all turn in the same
direction, although modern ones do not have any screw thread.

So when we installed a Grohe on the kitchen, we reversed the tubes.
Hot is left, but red colour.

For the Spanish one, is the hot marked with a C?

No, with red.


--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
On 15/02/2023 19:57, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 18:13:39 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

On 15/02/2023 17:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/02/2023 15:39, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:49:09 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/02/2023 22:25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
For instance, the book I started learning English taught the expression
\"it is raining cats and dogs\". Most of the times I tried to use it,
nobody understood it and I had to explain ?

That is sadly, because most English people today are not taught English.
They can\'t pronounce it, spell it, or use  correct grammar.

An educated Indian speaks better English.

Who defines a language, if not the people who use it?

a standards committee.
You nurking farqual.

Except that the UK and the US don\'t have an equivalent of the Academie
Francaise which regulates the language. We have dictionaries which
reflect current usage and imply what usage is and isn\'t \"acceptable\" but
those are advisory, not mandatory.

Before dictionaries were invented, starting about 1600 for English,
people just said and spelled any way they liked. The idea of \"correct\"
English came later.
Each town also had a separate clock on local time.
Do you think we should go back to that, too?
And make Gujerati an official language?


--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
 
On 2/18/2023 2:46 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
UK fridges are much less of a power hog than US ones. The power it takes to
keep cool depends mostly on how often it gets opened and how full it is. 4C
is a widely recognised safe temperature for storing uncooked meat and fish
much above that and you are asking for trouble.

I suspect (?) our frigs are larger than yours.  Ours is 23 cu ft
and that\'s the \"smaller\" variant of this model (the \"standard\"
is 28 cu ft).

*Much* larger! US fridges are often bigger than Dr Who\'s Tardis. A friend has
one more like a wardrobe than an fridge. I could hide in it!

When one discards a refrigerator/freezer, here, you remove the doors to
keep overly-curious kids from becoming trapped inside (think: hide-n-seek)

A typical UK under counter kitchen fridge is about 100L capacity which I think
is about 4 cubic feet. Freezers do come in various larger sizes but under the
counter ones don\'t.

Yikes! 4 cu ft is more like a (larger) \"dormitory room\" appliance.
Our freezer (*in* the refrigerator) is bigger than that!

We have a separate \"chest freezer\" (door is the *lid*) in the
garage that\'s about 16 cu ft (our previous one was ~20 cu ft).
We freeze about 100 qts of orange juice from each harvest. As
that is consumed, the released space gets re-appropriated for
other things (spaghetti sauce, baked goods, meats, etc.)

People tend to buy in larger quantities -- esp if they have
extra freezer capacity. I\'m unsure if the savings on the
products justify the increased energy required to preserve them
but it is considerably more convenient to be able to \"visit the
freezer\" than to have to \"visit the store\"!

At least 20% of US homes have two (or more) \"refrigeration appliances\".
A neighbor has a full-size refrigerator w/freezer in his kitchen;
another in his garage; and an under-counter unit in his *other*
garage/man-cave (for beer, of course).

I know folks with refrigerators *without* freezer compartments that
are larger than our 23 cu ft (ours is limited to 23 cu ft as it is
only as deep as the countertops; others protrude farther into the room
for additional capacity). AND, a separate *freezer* (without a
refrigerator compartment) to go alongside! But, this is usually
just a sign of extravagance as most homes wouldn\'t need that sort
of capacity.

A trend in the past few years has been to support multiple
evaporators in the refrigerator/freezer. This allows the user
to determine the temperature range for different compartments
independently of the others (many refrigerators have a single
evaporator in the freezer compartment and \"gate\" airflow into the
refrigerator to \"chill\" that compartment).

And, newer refrigerators are WiFi enabled, some with cameras to
let you view their contents (remotely or on an LCD display
mounted to the front of a door), etc. It\'s really quite
silly -- though *somewhat* practical (if you are the type of
shopper who doesn\'t PLAN their shopping trip and needs to
question what they have, on hand, while out at a store!)

[Ours has a little control panel INSIDE the refrigerator compartment
with a graphic (monochrome) display that lets you control which
features are enabled, temperature setpoints, etc. But, the more
*useful* feature -- a heated butter compartment -- has been
elided (wasteful of energy?)]

Lighting circuits often address the lighting in multiple rooms on
a single circuit.  Ditto for general purpose \"receptacles\" in rooms
other than the kitchen.

Does the US have the same ring main configuration as the UK or is that method
peculiar to us? That is the room sockets form a continuous loop with the cable
going back to the mains distribution node. It has the advantage of two paths
back to the distribution board and so slightly thinner wires for a given
current carrying capacity (or lower losses).

No. The \"feed\" from the breaker (for that branch circuit) can fork
as often as seems appropriate for the routing of that circuit. The
electrician will often choose to run the line in a \"connect-the-dots\"
fashion as the architect will likely have indicated outlet placements
with that in mind on the plans. But, if a more effective use of wire
would require multiple forks, then so be it.

[The mains distribution to homes -- below grade -- is in the form of
an interrupted loop. Power feeds to the first (pad mounted) transformer.
Then, from there, to the next one (on a separate cable). Etc.
The last transformer in the series has a separate feed cable to
the mains -- at a different geographical location -- but it is
not connected. In the event that one of the \"daisy chains\" fails
(isolating the homes that are downstream from that failure), the
utility company will connect this other feed to restore power to
the downstream homes \"from the other end\", after completely
disconnecting the faulted cable segment.]

Keep in mind that most lighting circuits are only ~1800W (and are typically
derated to 1440W). This is also the norm for most (\"non-kitchen\") outlet
circuits.

Our code requires two circuits for (kitchen) countertop use rated at 20A
(~2400W again, typ. derated to 80%) as that\'s where most of the power
hungry appliances are connected (electric frying pan/wok, toaster,
microwave oven, mixer, blender, etc.). I arranged for ours to be
\"interleaved\" so you could determine which circuit fed each outlet
just by casual examination (odds vs. evens). It\'s usually prudent to
feed the two branch circuits from opposite \"legs\" of the mains.

[Technically, one should use receptacles that are tailored to individual
20A loads (a 20A plug has the neutral blade perpendicular -- instead of
parallel -- to the hot blade).]

I\'ve often encountered 4 conductor cable (instead of 3 -- hot, neutral, earth)
used to feed a set of physically contiguous loads (like countertop circuits).
It runs from one outlet to the next, allowing the installer to determine
which \"line\" connection to use for each load.

[Encountered one such site where an outlet had been wired to Hot1, Hot2,
Neutral & Earth (instead of Hot*, Neutral and Earth)... made for some
interesting \"connections\" :< ]

It strikes me it would work even better on lower voltage higher current US
mains circuits if your wiring codes permit it.

I\'m not sure that one can connect two conductors under a single
screw (e.g., at the circuit breaker).

The heavier use circuits (clothes dryer, water heater?, oven, central
air conditioning compressor, etc.) are rated at higher loads (e.g., 12KW?
for the air conditioner\'s compressor, 7KW? for the electric dryer, etc.)
and must ONLY feed those single appliances. Most operate from two \"line\"
connections (i.e., 240VAC)

It is good practice (may even be part of the Code, now) to power
your refrigerator from a single 1800W (120VAC) circuit as well as your
furnace (120VAC blower) on yet another.

And, of course, loads near water require ground fault protection
(bathrooms, garage, basement?, outdoor -- unless overhead, etc.).
I think there is now a requirement for arc-fault protectors
(on bedroom circuits?). And, all are now \"tamper resistant\"
(to keep kids from sticking things into the openings)

[But, the Code tolerates using different *devices* to get that
functionality. E.g., one can buy a GFCI receptacle that can
be wired in series with the other receptacles that need GFCI
protection. In that case, the GFCI receptacle provides it
to its \"slaves\". This, of course, requires the other
receptacles to have been wired \"downstream\" from the chosen
one. This encourages retrofitting that capability to a
home -- a homeowner can make such a change themselves, in
many jurisdictions, without necessitating the involvement of
a licensed electrician (sadly, many homeowners are more frugal
than technically savvy!)

Alternatively, you can install a GFCI circuit breaker and
have all loads on the branch circuit protected -- but this
is a more expensive option (though one I prefer as it makes for
cleaner looking receptacles -- no annoying \"test\" and \"reset\"
buttons!)]
 
On 2/18/2023 6:35 AM, Don Y wrote:
I\'ve often encountered 4 conductor cable (instead of 3 -- hot, neutral, earth)
used to feed a set of physically contiguous loads (like countertop circuits).
It runs from one outlet to the next, allowing the installer to determine
which \"line\" connection to use for each load.

Code requires outlets every ~12 ft (IIRC). But, countertop outlets
are spaced at *4* ft intervals. Kitchen appliances often have very
short power cords (to encourage being unplugged when moved -- not
in use -- as well as eliminate service loops)
 
On 18/02/2023 12:58, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:33:36 -0000, Max Demian
max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 13/02/2023 03:59, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:08:57 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Radios of that era had a setting named \"phone\". And a socket. You
connected the output of the \"electric gramophone\" pickup to the phone

Every mains valve radio had a \"Gram\" or \"PU\" socket with switching,
usually combined with the waveband switch.

Did valve radios use Cockcroft-Walton multipliers?

No, transformers for AC mains, dropper resistors for DC, HT/LT batteries
for portables and vibrator power packs for car radios. (Or valves with
12V HT and a power transistor for hybrids.)

Mine has no output jacks or cords.  Just a small nice wooden cabinet
with no holes, no jacks, maybe one 12\" wire as a transmitting
antenna (I
have to go look again.  Not sure if there\'s a wire.)

Maybe 14 or 16\" square and 5\" high.

It might be from the 30\'s after my mother got married in 1929.

input of the radio, which was actually the audio amplifier section.

The radio could have a switch to disable the radio section or not, in
which case you would have to \"tune out\" the stations.

I have been lucky enough that there was no strong station at the
frequency.  I left a note inside so I or the next owner doesn\'t have to
hunt for it.

I don\'t think that would have been legal, certainly not in the UK.

I doubt it was illegal at that short a distance.   You can (or could
recently) buy a transmitter to convert something (mp3?) into FM to go
to your car stereo.  It wouldn\'t get far outside the car.

The low power FM transmitters came later. Recently I bought Thomson
wireless headphones that use UHF and reach out into the car park: much
better than Bluetooth and with no latency.

They used to be very stuffy about home transmitters in the past: If you
learnt Morse code you could become a radio ham.

There were at least two classes of licence - you needed to learn morse
for the higher licence that permitted more options and made for long
range communications.

I think you could have a
radio controlled toy running at 27 MHz, though might have needed a
licence.

27MHz AM radio control had been around for a long time and I don\'t think
a licence was required. 35MHz FM came in later, again no licence required.

People imported 27 MHz walkie-talkies but they were illegal to
use. I think they eventually made CB radios legal.

Imported CBs were 27MHz AM and caused problems with ambulance service
communications IIRC. When CBs were legalised, it was on 27MHz FM, with
the AM sets remaining illegal and the FM sets being limited to 4 Watts.
Only 40 channels were legal, although some imported sets could access 80.
 
On 2023-02-08 19:35, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-02-08 15:05, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 13:57:10 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-07 22:34, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 13:23:46 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-07 12:35, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 02:48:47 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-06 20:11, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 3:38:45 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 15:28:31 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
palli...@gmail.com> wrote:


There is no such thing as \" wrong\" polarity when DC plugs are
fitted to leads.
Some are positive tip and the rest negative.
Wot planet do you live on ?

We buy DC warts that have the inner part of the barrel connector
positive. Negative would certainly be wrong.

That\'s a flawed certainty.
Here is a counterexample; the center is negative, and it isn\'t just
the label, my multimeter says so too.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7RSyQpJ4NQrKzfgu5

What\'s really spooky, is that I recall an identical manufacturer
and part number unit
with center positive (also correctly labelled).


A P-channel FET or a series Schottky diode fixes that.  I\'d never
omit
polarity protection from any design--even my hand-wired protos have
shunt 1N5819s or 1N5823s.

I don\'t use shunt diodes in products or customer designs--in the
low-noise instruments world, it\'s far from unknown for people to
power
24V stuff from two boat batteries in series.

Interesting point, though--it might be a good idea to put an NFET
in the
negative lead as well as a PFET in the positive one, to protect
against
shorts from V- to ground.  It could be a depletion device to
guarantee
startup behavior.  I\'ll think about that.


I generally use a polyfuse and a big unipolar TVS first thing. That
handles reverse voltage and some (not all) over-voltage cases. But
I\'d
rather have the TVS fail shorted, than blow up everything downstream.

TVS shorted can be blamed on the customer!

Bulletproof startup can be challenging.

We hard-ground everything in our boxes and assume that a customer
might want to power us from their, usually grounded, roughly 24 volt
DC buss.

We often do that too, and used to do it more when we could still get
PolyZens, which were a wonderfully complete and compact solution
(*sniff* *sniff*).

A big TVS can desolder itself and fall off the board if the PCB is
vertical.

Most of our stuff has switchers and lots of filtering, and so runs
fine
off a common power buss.  The rail splitter thing is for light-duty
use.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Take a look at IXYS CPC1540GS.

It\'s a high-voltage bidirectional SSR with current and thermal
limiting.

I\'ve used it as just a current limiter. This and a TVS might be a nice
combination. Drive the LED side with a resistor or a depletion fet.

Some clever LED-side driver might do under/overvoltage lockout too.


Nice part, but its maximum Ron of 25 ohms is on the high side.


It\'s 4 ohms in unipolar mode, which is better but doesn\'t do reverse
protection the obvious way.

I want a higher-power version.

Consider, maybe, a biggish SSR and a small ssr or optocoupler to
measure the ON voltage drop for shutdown.


Nah, I\'ll stick with 70 cents worth of small FETs and a resistor pack
for the grounded-wart fault condition, and let the polyfuse look after
overcurrent.  The TCA0372 will be pretty much loafing at current levels
I care about for this use.

The FETs would be cheaper still except that I need >24 V_GSmax--for
PFETs, I wound up with DMP3056es for all three, and for NFETs, DMG3406L
pass devices and a MCC 2N7002A driver.

We just got the first batch of ten rail splitter boards in from JLCPCB.
<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/wallwartsplitter.pdf>

They work great--if you short either side of the wart to ground, the
FETs open up and latch that way until you cycle the power. It\'s also
polarity-protected, of course.

These ones get clamped to a metal baseplate with a thermal gap pad to
cool the TCA0372.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 21:29:14 -0000, Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

In article <80liuht8a8kapp11avrp0d4rodk6h9e715@4ax.com>,
hubops@ccanoemail.com says...

It could be interesting to see a picture of a panel with the breakers
going 3 different directions.


Commander brand mounted horizontal -
- top row of breakers down is ON
- bottom row of breakers up is ON
- main breaker right is ON
John T.



In the US many panels will have the main at the top and will be up for
ON. The ones on the left side will be RIGHT for on and the right side
will be LEFT for on.

That\'s because of your stupid 120 volt obsession.
 
On 18/02/2023 13:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2023 12:43, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Mains was always AC wasn\'t it?

If course it wasn\'t (in the UK). Mains was AC or DC, and 120V (or so)
to 250V (or so).


Mains was always AC post WWII and probably post the advent of consumer
tube radios and IIRC was always 240VAC post WWII.

\"The Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 merged the 600-odd local generating
companies into area boards, who in turn were centralised into the
Central Electricity Board by the Electricity Supply Act 1925. That is
when the voltage was standardised at 240V, and the National Grid created.

And then the EU stole ten of our good, English volts!

Have we got them back yet?

(But DC persisted, in some areas as late as the mid 60s. Refrigerators,
Vacuum Cleaners, Sewing Machines, Electric Drills, Radios and TVs were
available with universal input. They would all work on AC or DC 240V
(one or two DC areas were only 180V, like Dundee or Exeter))\"

That rather contradicts your first para.

--
Max Demian
 
tirsdag den 21. februar 2023 kl. 00.42.41 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
On 2023-02-08 19:35, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-02-08 15:05, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 13:57:10 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-07 22:34, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 13:23:46 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-07 12:35, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 02:48:47 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-06 20:11, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 3:38:45 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 15:28:31 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
palli...@gmail.com> wrote:


There is no such thing as \" wrong\" polarity when DC plugs are
fitted to leads.
Some are positive tip and the rest negative.
Wot planet do you live on ?

We buy DC warts that have the inner part of the barrel connector
positive. Negative would certainly be wrong.

That\'s a flawed certainty.
Here is a counterexample; the center is negative, and it isn\'t just
the label, my multimeter says so too.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7RSyQpJ4NQrKzfgu5

What\'s really spooky, is that I recall an identical manufacturer
and part number unit
with center positive (also correctly labelled).


A P-channel FET or a series Schottky diode fixes that. I\'d never
omit
polarity protection from any design--even my hand-wired protos have
shunt 1N5819s or 1N5823s.

I don\'t use shunt diodes in products or customer designs--in the
low-noise instruments world, it\'s far from unknown for people to
power
24V stuff from two boat batteries in series.

Interesting point, though--it might be a good idea to put an NFET
in the
negative lead as well as a PFET in the positive one, to protect
against
shorts from V- to ground. It could be a depletion device to
guarantee
startup behavior. I\'ll think about that.


I generally use a polyfuse and a big unipolar TVS first thing. That
handles reverse voltage and some (not all) over-voltage cases. But
I\'d
rather have the TVS fail shorted, than blow up everything downstream.

TVS shorted can be blamed on the customer!

Bulletproof startup can be challenging.

We hard-ground everything in our boxes and assume that a customer
might want to power us from their, usually grounded, roughly 24 volt
DC buss.

We often do that too, and used to do it more when we could still get
PolyZens, which were a wonderfully complete and compact solution
(*sniff* *sniff*).

A big TVS can desolder itself and fall off the board if the PCB is
vertical.

Most of our stuff has switchers and lots of filtering, and so runs
fine
off a common power buss. The rail splitter thing is for light-duty
use.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Take a look at IXYS CPC1540GS.

It\'s a high-voltage bidirectional SSR with current and thermal
limiting.

I\'ve used it as just a current limiter. This and a TVS might be a nice
combination. Drive the LED side with a resistor or a depletion fet.

Some clever LED-side driver might do under/overvoltage lockout too.


Nice part, but its maximum Ron of 25 ohms is on the high side.


It\'s 4 ohms in unipolar mode, which is better but doesn\'t do reverse
protection the obvious way.

I want a higher-power version.

Consider, maybe, a biggish SSR and a small ssr or optocoupler to
measure the ON voltage drop for shutdown.


Nah, I\'ll stick with 70 cents worth of small FETs and a resistor pack
for the grounded-wart fault condition, and let the polyfuse look after
overcurrent. The TCA0372 will be pretty much loafing at current levels
I care about for this use.

The FETs would be cheaper still except that I need >24 V_GSmax--for
PFETs, I wound up with DMP3056es for all three, and for NFETs, DMG3406L
pass devices and a MCC 2N7002A driver.


We just got the first batch of ten rail splitter boards in from JLCPCB.
https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/wallwartsplitter.pdf

They work great--if you short either side of the wart to ground, the
FETs open up and latch that way until you cycle the power. It\'s also
polarity-protected, of course.

These ones get clamped to a metal baseplate with a thermal gap pad to
cool the TCA0372.

who not use both sections of the opamp?
 
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 23:14:48 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 16:29:14 -0500, Ralph Mowery
rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

In article <80liuht8a8kapp11avrp0d4rodk6h9e715@4ax.com>,
hubops@ccanoemail.com says...

It could be interesting to see a picture of a panel with the breakers
going 3 different directions.

Commander brand mounted horizontal -
- top row of breakers down is ON
- bottom row of breakers up is ON
- main breaker right is ON

In the US many panels will have the main at the top and will be up for
ON. The ones on the left side will be RIGHT for on and the right side
will be LEFT for on.

... my panel turned vertical ! .... imagine that.
John T.

Probably against the USA\'s precious little code to turn it round. You\'ll be put in jail.
 
On 18/02/2023 00:21, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 22:00:34 -0000, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

Stylus was the new word, starting in the 1960\'s iirc.  The original word
was needle, and they looked like needles, steel pins with a point, about
an inch long.  Held in place with a finger screw. .  I still have  my
mother\'s 78 rpm record player, probably from the 20\'s, and a couple
boxes labeled \"needles\" \"Guaranteed to play 10 records\".   I think it
also says \"genuine steel\".

TEN!?

You were usually recommended to use each needle only once. Gramophones
often had a little caddy to put the used needle into.

I couldn\'t really see the difference between a used needle and a new
one, and I hope I didn\'t damage any of the records.

Her record player doesn\'t have speakers, not even one, or any controls
except on/off.  For sound you have to turn on a nearby AM radio and tune
to the right frequency. I meant to check if that means I can listen all
over the house, which would be really nice, but until just now, I\'d
forgotten about

They transmitted?!

Didn\'t find her brand but this is similar:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144780107371

Ouch, they look like they\'d cut through the record if played enough times.

Shellac is very hard. Before I could get proper needles for an electric
record deck I inherited I use panel pins without any trouble.

--
Max Demian
 
On 2023-02-20 19:00, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 21. februar 2023 kl. 00.42.41 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
On 2023-02-08 19:35, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2023-02-08 15:05, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 13:57:10 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-07 22:34, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 13:23:46 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-07 12:35, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 02:48:47 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-02-06 20:11, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 3:38:45 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 15:28:31 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
palli...@gmail.com> wrote:


There is no such thing as \" wrong\" polarity when DC plugs are
fitted to leads.
Some are positive tip and the rest negative.
Wot planet do you live on ?

We buy DC warts that have the inner part of the barrel connector
positive. Negative would certainly be wrong.

That\'s a flawed certainty.
Here is a counterexample; the center is negative, and it isn\'t just
the label, my multimeter says so too.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7RSyQpJ4NQrKzfgu5

What\'s really spooky, is that I recall an identical manufacturer
and part number unit
with center positive (also correctly labelled).


A P-channel FET or a series Schottky diode fixes that. I\'d never
omit
polarity protection from any design--even my hand-wired protos have
shunt 1N5819s or 1N5823s.

I don\'t use shunt diodes in products or customer designs--in the
low-noise instruments world, it\'s far from unknown for people to
power
24V stuff from two boat batteries in series.

Interesting point, though--it might be a good idea to put an NFET
in the
negative lead as well as a PFET in the positive one, to protect
against
shorts from V- to ground. It could be a depletion device to
guarantee
startup behavior. I\'ll think about that.


I generally use a polyfuse and a big unipolar TVS first thing. That
handles reverse voltage and some (not all) over-voltage cases. But
I\'d
rather have the TVS fail shorted, than blow up everything downstream.

TVS shorted can be blamed on the customer!

Bulletproof startup can be challenging.

We hard-ground everything in our boxes and assume that a customer
might want to power us from their, usually grounded, roughly 24 volt
DC buss.

We often do that too, and used to do it more when we could still get
PolyZens, which were a wonderfully complete and compact solution
(*sniff* *sniff*).

A big TVS can desolder itself and fall off the board if the PCB is
vertical.

Most of our stuff has switchers and lots of filtering, and so runs
fine
off a common power buss. The rail splitter thing is for light-duty
use.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Take a look at IXYS CPC1540GS.

It\'s a high-voltage bidirectional SSR with current and thermal
limiting.

I\'ve used it as just a current limiter. This and a TVS might be a nice
combination. Drive the LED side with a resistor or a depletion fet.

Some clever LED-side driver might do under/overvoltage lockout too.


Nice part, but its maximum Ron of 25 ohms is on the high side.


It\'s 4 ohms in unipolar mode, which is better but doesn\'t do reverse
protection the obvious way.

I want a higher-power version.

Consider, maybe, a biggish SSR and a small ssr or optocoupler to
measure the ON voltage drop for shutdown.


Nah, I\'ll stick with 70 cents worth of small FETs and a resistor pack
for the grounded-wart fault condition, and let the polyfuse look after
overcurrent. The TCA0372 will be pretty much loafing at current levels
I care about for this use.

The FETs would be cheaper still except that I need >24 V_GSmax--for
PFETs, I wound up with DMP3056es for all three, and for NFETs, DMG3406L
pass devices and a MCC 2N7002A driver.


We just got the first batch of ten rail splitter boards in from JLCPCB.
https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/wallwartsplitter.pdf

They work great--if you short either side of the wart to ground, the
FETs open up and latch that way until you cycle the power. It\'s also
polarity-protected, of course.

These ones get clamped to a metal baseplate with a thermal gap pad to
cool the TCA0372.


who not use both sections of the opamp?

Because their DC offsets will in general be different. That means
they\'ll fight, unless we put resistors in series with the outputs.

The silicon hardly contributes to the overall thermal resistance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 01:31:06 -0000, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

Sam E <not.email@all.invalid> writes:
On 2/11/23 05:39, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 08:16:45 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

Why do circuit breakers go up for on and down for off? Would they work installed upside down?

Some go up, some go down, some go sideways.
My panel has all three !
You need to get out more.
John T.

It could be interesting to see a picture of a panel with the breakers
going 3 different directions.


That\'s far from unusual.

Cut it out with the double negatives. You could have said \"that\'s common\". Don\'t make us cancel things out to work out what you mean.
 

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