Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic

  • Thread starter Electro Migration
  • Start date
Joel Koltner wrote:
Kevin -- I do agree with much of what you're said; we're not really
that far apart, I think, in our beliefs. Thanks for the post...
Click to expand...
Yes and thanks.

One thing I'd mention is that "learning by looking at circuits and
designing them" is not as applicable today as it was in, e.g., the
'70s: Circuits today are very complex to take in all at once (you
can't just open up the back of a cell phone and figure much out...).
Recall the discussion about...
Click to expand...
I was really restricting my reply to analogue ic design itself. The circuits
are usually more manageable. I agree, that many actual products are
impossible to analyse.

-- Whether or not even the most brilliant minds of the '60s would be
able to figure out how a modern hard drive worked (not so clearcut!)
-- The case where some guy's friend wanted to make a 3D computer game
and so just started entering "code" such as "fire missiles at
enemies" in a text editor and actually thought he was "pretty close"
to making something work!
If you open up electronics magazines today, the vast majority of them
are centered around microcontrollers and digital stuff which arguably
is much easier to understand and digest than, e.g., some fancy
neutralized tube amplifier for UHF. Even if you open up a magazine
and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using
someone's all-in-one IC rather than being a discrete design, right?
Click to expand...
Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct.


--
Kevin Aylward
ka@kevinaylward.co.uk
www.kevinaylward.co.uk
 
Joerg wrote:
Electro Migration wrote:
Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic
designers? If graduating electrical engineers wish to be considered
proficient
analog, mixed-signal, or RF designers using commercial tools, what
are their options today?

Here's what I can find so far by googling and asking of others:

They start with an EE degree - then they ...
- add 3-5 years on-the-job training (i.e., design, then lead 5-10
projects) - attend universities (e.g., MIT open university or UC Berkely
extension) - take technical training (e.g., Besser Associates or SVTII)
- build "in-house training" (e.g., hire consultants for custom
classes) - follow "trade publications" (e.g., IEEE.org journals or
EEdesign)
- peruse "designer websites" (e.g., designers guide or analog ic
design) - they ???

Given it would be nice to collect pointers on how to be a better
analog, rf, or mixed-signal designer, the question is two-fold.

(1) What other "options" are there for a custom-IC designer to
improve their job-related skills?

(2) Is there a great list of "practical" design classes,
instructors, and materials available on the web that we could
collect here?


Only this way: Build stuff. Buy parts at Digikey or other places, fire
up the soldering iron, put it together, make it work. IMHO you cannot
become a good analog IC designer unless you have a lot of experience
with discrete circuits under the belt.
Click to expand...
I probably have to agree, maybe, sort of. It was my own particular path,
however, I dare say its possible in principle to become good without
discrete circuit experience. What is quite important though is getting real
experience with any physical hardware, even if it is only with your ic fabed
ones.

Nowadays I encounter a lot of fresh grads who think that mastering
SPICE and VHDL is all they need. Wrong. If someone can't solder I
usually advise my clients against hiring that engineer and keep
looking.
Click to expand...
Although I have spent many, many, years on the bench, for the last 10 years
or so, it has been entirely in the virtual cadence world. I can honestly say
that I can design relatively complex analogue chips, entirely by computer,
and have first pass successes. However, its hard to evaluate just how much
of my prior discrete bench work contributed to this. I believe it was
significant, but I just can't really say for definite.

Generally, I find those that can't solder are not much use, because
soldering is what bods do, and in my experience, its only the bods that end
up being any good. You need to have done things on your own accord, to be
good at anything, in my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum
has to force you, their wasting their time.

--
Kevin Aylward
ka@kevinaylward.co.uk
www.kevinaylward.co.uk
 
Kevin Aylward wrote:
Joel Koltner wrote:
Kevin -- I do agree with much of what you're said; we're not really
that far apart, I think, in our beliefs. Thanks for the post...

Yes and thanks.

One thing I'd mention is that "learning by looking at circuits and
designing them" is not as applicable today as it was in, e.g., the
'70s: Circuits today are very complex to take in all at once (you
can't just open up the back of a cell phone and figure much out...).
Recall the discussion about...

I was really restricting my reply to analogue ic design itself. The circuits
are usually more manageable. I agree, that many actual products are
impossible to analyse.

-- Whether or not even the most brilliant minds of the '60s would be
able to figure out how a modern hard drive worked (not so clearcut!)
-- The case where some guy's friend wanted to make a 3D computer game
and so just started entering "code" such as "fire missiles at
enemies" in a text editor and actually thought he was "pretty close"
to making something work!
If you open up electronics magazines today, the vast majority of them
are centered around microcontrollers and digital stuff which arguably
is much easier to understand and digest than, e.g., some fancy
neutralized tube amplifier for UHF. Even if you open up a magazine
and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using
someone's all-in-one IC rather than being a discrete design, right?

Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct.
Click to expand...
Nope, it sure ain't. I make a living with it. What is quickly dwindling
is the required talent pool. Because most students believe in this
extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, embedded or
software. A client had searched a full two years for an analog guy with
discrete design capabilities and finally had to import one. And I am
still coaching him because young grads haven't had our level of hobby
exposure.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
"Kevin Aylward" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:pSIsj.16$GQ6.0@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
You need to have done things on your own accord, to be good at anything, in
my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum has to force you,
their wasting their time.
Click to expand...
In general I agree, but I do think some people are so extraordinarily bright
that they end up being very good at particular things with only, say,
pecuniary interest (rather than, e.g., hobbyist interest) -- someone like
Tonya Harding (clearly quite talented) perhaps might fit this category.

I also imagine that someone like Gary Kasparov, even if he hadn't been playing
chess all his life, could still beat most players within, say, one year of
beginning to play. It's hard to overstate just how much better someone like
Kasparov is at what he does best than the average Joe is.

---Joel
 
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:27:52 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Kevin Aylward wrote:
Joel Koltner wrote:
[snip]
Even if you open up a magazine
and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using
someone's all-in-one IC rather than being a discrete design, right?

Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct.


Nope, it sure ain't. I make a living with it. What is quickly dwindling
is the required talent pool. Because most students believe in this
extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, embedded or
software. A client had searched a full two years for an analog guy with
discrete design capabilities and finally had to import one. And I am
still coaching him because young grads haven't had our level of hobby
exposure.
Click to expand...
Spread the word: If at all possible use a uP... keep us old farts
working ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
 
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:27:52 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Kevin Aylward wrote:
Joel Koltner wrote:
[snip]
Even if you open up a magazine
and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using
someone's all-in-one IC rather than being a discrete design, right?
Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct.

Nope, it sure ain't. I make a living with it. What is quickly dwindling
is the required talent pool. Because most students believe in this
extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, embedded or
software. A client had searched a full two years for an analog guy with
discrete design capabilities and finally had to import one. And I am
still coaching him because young grads haven't had our level of hobby
exposure.

Spread the word: If at all possible use a uP... keep us old farts
working ;-)
Click to expand...
Yep :)

But there will come a time when we aren't around anymore. Even among
analog chip designers I can tell the difference between the old ones and
newer grads. The young folks lean heavily towards building blocks and
have a hard time with true device level stuff. In the discrete world
it's worse, only very few young engineers who would dare to jump into
transistor level at all.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Kevin Aylward wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Electro Migration wrote:
Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic
designers? If graduating electrical engineers wish to be considered
proficient
analog, mixed-signal, or RF designers using commercial tools, what
are their options today?

Here's what I can find so far by googling and asking of others:

They start with an EE degree - then they ...
- add 3-5 years on-the-job training (i.e., design, then lead 5-10
projects) - attend universities (e.g., MIT open university or UC Berkely
extension) - take technical training (e.g., Besser Associates or SVTII)
- build "in-house training" (e.g., hire consultants for custom
classes) - follow "trade publications" (e.g., IEEE.org journals or
EEdesign)
- peruse "designer websites" (e.g., designers guide or analog ic
design) - they ???

Given it would be nice to collect pointers on how to be a better
analog, rf, or mixed-signal designer, the question is two-fold.

(1) What other "options" are there for a custom-IC designer to
improve their job-related skills?

(2) Is there a great list of "practical" design classes,
instructors, and materials available on the web that we could
collect here?

Only this way: Build stuff. Buy parts at Digikey or other places, fire
up the soldering iron, put it together, make it work. IMHO you cannot
become a good analog IC designer unless you have a lot of experience
with discrete circuits under the belt.

I probably have to agree, maybe, sort of. It was my own particular path,
however, I dare say its possible in principle to become good without
discrete circuit experience. What is quite important though is getting real
experience with any physical hardware, even if it is only with your ic fabed
ones.
Click to expand...
I do not think one can become good without getting the hands dirty. Only
by building stuff can one gain a true appreciation about inductive
coupling mechanisms, EMI, inductor saturation, ESR, datasheets cooked by
marketing people, and so on.


Nowadays I encounter a lot of fresh grads who think that mastering
SPICE and VHDL is all they need. Wrong. If someone can't solder I
usually advise my clients against hiring that engineer and keep
looking.

Although I have spent many, many, years on the bench, for the last 10 years
or so, it has been entirely in the virtual cadence world. I can honestly say
that I can design relatively complex analogue chips, entirely by computer,
and have first pass successes. However, its hard to evaluate just how much
of my prior discrete bench work contributed to this. I believe it was
significant, but I just can't really say for definite.
Click to expand...
Your bench experience is what give you a dose of reality when doing
SPICE. For example, a rookie who never saw a bench will not likely know
why and when tantalum capacitors become spacecraft.


Generally, I find those that can't solder are not much use, because
soldering is what bods do, and in my experience, its only the bods that end
up being any good. You need to have done things on your own accord, to be
good at anything, in my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum
has to force you, their wasting their time.
Click to expand...
Exactamente. If a client asks me to interview a candidate and he or she
can't solder the interview is de facto over.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:35:17 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:27:52 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Kevin Aylward wrote:
Joel Koltner wrote:
[snip]
Even if you open up a magazine
and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using
someone's all-in-one IC rather than being a discrete design, right?
Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct.

Nope, it sure ain't. I make a living with it. What is quickly dwindling
is the required talent pool. Because most students believe in this
extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, embedded or
software. A client had searched a full two years for an analog guy with
discrete design capabilities and finally had to import one. And I am
still coaching him because young grads haven't had our level of hobby
exposure.

Spread the word: If at all possible use a uP... keep us old farts
working ;-)


Yep :)

But there will come a time when we aren't around anymore. Even among
analog chip designers I can tell the difference between the old ones and
newer grads. The young folks lean heavily towards building blocks and
have a hard time with true device level stuff. In the discrete world
it's worse, only very few young engineers who would dare to jump into
transistor level at all.
Click to expand...
We need to hold on to our health as long as possible.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
 
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:41:39 -0800, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Kevin Aylward wrote:
[snip]

Generally, I find those that can't solder are not much use, because
soldering is what bods do, and in my experience, its only the bods that end
up being any good. You need to have done things on your own accord, to be
good at anything, in my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum
has to force you, their wasting their time.


Exactamente. If a client asks me to interview a candidate and he or she
can't solder the interview is de facto over.
Click to expand...
I told all four of my kids, "Do whatever you want to make a living...
just simply be the best."

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
 
"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:bl07r3pm45eaueaaif6jjshu8mdjnmb1kl@4ax.com...
We need to hold on to our health as long as possible.
Click to expand...
And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim!

<< ducking to avoid getting slugged... :) >>
 
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:39:20 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
<zapwireDASHgroups@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:bl07r3pm45eaueaaif6jjshu8mdjnmb1kl@4ax.com...
We need to hold on to our health as long as possible.

And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim!

ducking to avoid getting slugged... :)
Click to expand...
Sno-o-o-o-ort ;-)

My health insurance coverage is presently outstanding... $156
out-of-pocket for the hip replacement.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
 
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:39:20 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
zapwireDASHgroups@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:bl07r3pm45eaueaaif6jjshu8mdjnmb1kl@4ax.com...
We need to hold on to our health as long as possible.
And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim!

ducking to avoid getting slugged... :)


Sno-o-o-o-ort ;-)

My health insurance coverage is presently outstanding... $156
out-of-pocket for the hip replacement.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, once you reach Medicare you are home. But the health care
"system" for anyone below that age is the pits. When working for the
government you get cradle-to-grave pampering, courtesy of the taxpayer
(us!). When working for a large employer here in California you are ok,
well, mostly. Working for a smaller one or self-employed? Then you pay
through the nose if you don't have any old health record blemishes. If
you do you become a pariah, IOW non-insurable. To top it off one big HMO
has just sent notices to doctors enticing them to rat out patients with
enough potential to rescind their coverage. It hasn't ever gotten that
low before, now you have to be careful what you tell the doc or maybe
self-medicate some stuff. Great. This needs to be fixed, and soon, and I
sure hope all the candidates understand that this is a major concern for
the average American.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:37:17 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:39:20 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
zapwireDASHgroups@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:bl07r3pm45eaueaaif6jjshu8mdjnmb1kl@4ax.com...
We need to hold on to our health as long as possible.
And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim!

ducking to avoid getting slugged... :)


Sno-o-o-o-ort ;-)

My health insurance coverage is presently outstanding... $156
out-of-pocket for the hip replacement.


Well, yeah, once you reach Medicare you are home. But the health care
"system" for anyone below that age is the pits. When working for the
government you get cradle-to-grave pampering, courtesy of the taxpayer
(us!). When working for a large employer here in California you are ok,
well, mostly. Working for a smaller one or self-employed? Then you pay
through the nose if you don't have any old health record blemishes. If
you do you become a pariah, IOW non-insurable. To top it off one big HMO
has just sent notices to doctors enticing them to rat out patients with
enough potential to rescind their coverage. It hasn't ever gotten that
low before, now you have to be careful what you tell the doc or maybe
self-medicate some stuff. Great. This needs to be fixed, and soon, and I
sure hope all the candidates understand that this is a major concern for
the average American.
Click to expand...
I remember it well. IIRC, I was up to around $850/month with a $5K
deductible prior to Medicare.

Now it costs me $289.59/month for essentially zero deductible... the
$156 cost was for lab tests that were repeated in less than a year...
one of the drawbacks to Medicare, strange rules.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave
 
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