What is the smallest physically-possible voltage that can be

In comp.dsp GreenXenon <glucegen1x@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)

Are there any devices that can detect, receive, record, playback,
modulate/demodulate, transmit and/or otherwise process signals with
peak-to-peak amplitudes around 1 femtovolt?
Click to expand...
Since it is usually power, and not voltage, that is the limiting
factor, it might be possible if the current is high enough.

If you go through a transformer, or a series of them, to get
to a more usual voltage and current range, then it might work.
I would say that it is likely not possible to measure femtovolts DC,
but likely possible AC.

-- glen
 
rickman wrote:
On Jun 2, 12:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
rickman wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!

No, it can't. It can display zero, even with some voltage at the
input. The issues is the resolution of the meter. Even with the probes
shorted, you will have some Johnson noise which is generated by the
resistors in the input circuitry, if the meter is above absolute zero
degrees. That voltage is too low to be displayed, but it is still there.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

That was my point. It was supposed to be funny... I guess I needed
to add the smiley.

One of the things I have thought about is when in court defending a
ticket for not stopping at a stop sign, asserting that there is no
defense possible since you can never prove a quantity is exactly zero
by measurement. Somehow I suspect the interesting aspects of this
defense would be lost on the judge...
Click to expand...

Judges don't have a sense of humor, and most have no common sense.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
 
Eric Jacobsen wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CMudnRFLId9xOrnXnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

rickman wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!


No, it can't. It can display zero, even with some voltage at the
input. The issues is the resolution of the meter. Even with the probes
shorted, you will have some Johnson noise which is generated by the
resistors in the input circuitry, if the meter is above absolute zero
degrees. That voltage is too low to be displayed, but it is still there.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Yeah, but when it's exactly zero volts, that what the $35 multimeter will
display, so he wasn't incorrect.

;)
Click to expand...

Sigh.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
 
On Jun 2, 12:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
rickman wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

  PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm...  I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!

    No, it can't.  It can display zero, even with some voltage at the
input.  The issues is the resolution of the meter.  Even with the probes
shorted, you will have some Johnson noise which is generated by the
resistors in the input circuitry, if the meter is above absolute zero
degrees. That voltage is too low to be displayed, but it is still there.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
Click to expand...
That was my point. It was supposed to be funny... I guess I needed
to add the smiley.

One of the things I have thought about is when in court defending a
ticket for not stopping at a stop sign, asserting that there is no
defense possible since you can never prove a quantity is exactly zero
by measurement. Somehow I suspect the interesting aspects of this
defense would be lost on the judge...

Rick
 
On Jun 2, 9:08 am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
rickman wrote:

 > On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy > <secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

 >> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin
 >> >> <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

 
 >>> Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.
 >>> John
 >>   PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.
 
 > Hmmm...  I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
 > volts!

How exactly?

Jerry
Click to expand...
The usual way. It's not a magic voltmeter!

Rick
 
On Jun 2, 12:03 pm, glen herrmannsfeldt <g...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
In comp.dsp GreenXenon <glucege...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)

Are there any devices that can detect, receive, record, playback,
modulate/demodulate, transmit and/or otherwise process signals with
peak-to-peak amplitudes around 1 femtovolt?

Since it is usually power, and not voltage, that is the limiting
factor, it might be possible if the current is high enough.

If you go through a transformer, or a series of them, to get
to a more usual voltage and current range, then it might work.
I would say that it is likely not possible to measure femtovolts DC,
but likely possible AC.

-- glen
Click to expand...
Can't you always chop a DC current to produce an AC current? Even if
the current is very high, the fact that it is at a very low voltage
makes it hard to get any of that current to flow through your
measuring device, even if it is a transformer.

I suppose that you could pass the entire current through the measuring
device and then calculate the voltage by knowing the impedance... But
I don't see how having a high current help a direct measurement of a
low voltage.

Rick
 
All responders have been suckered by the green monster.

Bill

--
Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.
 
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
rickman wrote:

On Jun 2, 12:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:

rickman wrote:


On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!

No, it can't. It can display zero, even with some voltage at the
input. The issues is the resolution of the meter. Even with the probes
shorted, you will have some Johnson noise which is generated by the
resistors in the input circuitry, if the meter is above absolute zero
degrees. That voltage is too low to be displayed, but it is still there.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

That was my point. It was supposed to be funny... I guess I needed
to add the smiley.

One of the things I have thought about is when in court defending a
ticket for not stopping at a stop sign, asserting that there is no
defense possible since you can never prove a quantity is exactly zero
by measurement. Somehow I suspect the interesting aspects of this
defense would be lost on the judge...



Judges don't have a sense of humor, and most have no common sense.
Click to expand...
WRONG!
If you had said "many" or possibly "most" that would be something else.
For over three years I sat in on local Justice of Peace every Monday.
Great entertainment! It was free, educational, and entertaining to boot.
 
rickman wrote:
On Jun 2, 9:08 am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
rickman wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy > <secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:


Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.
John
PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!

How exactly?

Jerry

The usual way. It's not a magic voltmeter!

Rick
Click to expand...
I meant not "How, exactly", but "exact to what extent".

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
 
In comp.dsp Salmon Egg <SalmonEgg@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
All responders have been suckered by the green monster.
Click to expand...
That is true, but the femtovolt question is interesting,
independent of who asked it. I base my replies on
the question, not the questioner. It might be that the
answer is independent of the original question.

-- glen
 
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:44:42 -0700 (PDT), rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

  PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!

Rick
Click to expand...

No... it cannot. In fact, nothing can.
 
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:17:44 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

rickman wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!


No, it can't. It can display zero, even with some voltage at the
input. The issues is the resolution of the meter. Even with the probes
shorted, you will have some Johnson noise which is generated by the
resistors in the input circuitry, if the meter is above absolute zero
degrees. That voltage is too low to be displayed, but it is still there.
Click to expand...

Zero volts cannot be measured no matter what parasitics are in place or
are not.

Nothingness cannot be quantified. Only tangibles can. Zero is not
tangible, it is the absence of tangibility.
 
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:19:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Eric Gisse wrote:

On Jun 1, 4:15 pm, GreenXenon <glucege...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi:

What is the smallest physically-possible voltage that can be detected
or processed given the state of today's technology?

Thanks

Oh my god please fuck off from sci.physics. We do not want you.


Just kill file the idiot. If no one replies, they will give up.
Trolls thrive on attention, so you have to starve them.
Click to expand...

We should all refrain from replying to your horseshit then.
 
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:28:02 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:44:42 -0700 (PDT), rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com
wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

  PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!

Rick

Yeah, but to how many percentage accuracy?

John
Click to expand...

No, as in: there is no such measurement capacity available anywhere on
any device.

Your statement has 'bent' grammar. Insert word "points" or choose
different manner to ask same question as in: "to what degree of
accuracy".
 
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:00:07 -0700, "Eric Jacobsen"
<eric.jacobsen@ieee.org> wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CMudnRFLId9xOrnXnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

rickman wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy
secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin

jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.

John

PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!


No, it can't. It can display zero, even with some voltage at the
input. The issues is the resolution of the meter. Even with the probes
shorted, you will have some Johnson noise which is generated by the
resistors in the input circuitry, if the meter is above absolute zero
degrees. That voltage is too low to be displayed, but it is still there.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Yeah, but when it's exactly zero volts, that what the $35 multimeter will
display,
Click to expand...

] Not if it is turned on it wont.

so he wasn't incorrect.
Click to expand...
Oh yes he was, and so is most of the other responses to him.

If the meter is off, there will be no display. If it is on, it will
not be very likely to read zero volts when probing a bare piece of metal
or shorting the leads.

Like a scale that has been zeroed, one will see drift above and below
the zero line if the scale can resolve to tenths of a gram. It will also
drift as the internal electronics heats up. Not so much with a meter as
with scale electronics, for some reason.

So if the meter has more than 2 digits behind the decimal point, one
will likely see errant values pop in and out.
 
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:03:42 +1000, F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> wrote:

Eric Gisse wrote:
On Jun 1, 4:15 pm, GreenXenon <glucege...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi:

What is the smallest physically-possible voltage that can be detected
or processed given the state of today's technology?

Thanks

Oh my god please fuck off from sci.physics. We do not want you.
Is there any one in this group with the necessary scholastic
qualifications to diagnose the reason this poster asks such esoteric
questions
Click to expand...

The little twit "takes" responsibility for exercising our brains.

He feels that posts that get responses and incite discussion means that
he was the one that got us going, so he feels vindicated for all the crap
he never got done in real life.
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:17:53 -0700 (PDT), GreenXenon
<glucegen1x@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jun 1, 5:40 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

You can buy nanovoltmeters that will resolve a couple of hundred
picovolts, if you're careful.

Superconductive SQUID detectors can measure a picovolt.

Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.


Are there any devices that can detect, receive, record, playback,
modulate/demodulate, transmit and/or otherwise process signals with
peak-to-peak amplitudes around 1 femtovolt?
Click to expand...
Yes, your FM receiver. Usually takes 3 or more though.

We call them radios.

Satellite and deep space radio waves exhibit even less energy. That what
the big concentrator dishes are for.
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:04:50 -0700 (PDT), rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
wrote:

One of the things I have thought about is when in court defending a
ticket for not stopping at a stop sign, asserting that there is no
defense possible since you can never prove a quantity is exactly zero
by measurement. Somehow I suspect the interesting aspects of this
defense would be lost on the judge...
Click to expand...

Yeah, and then there are those of us that, as we aged and learned, did
not decide to cast out half of what we were taught and pull crap like
ignoring rules, not using turn signals, flicking their cigarette butts
out onto the rest of the world, forgetting what the rule is for a stop
sign, and generally growing up thinking they are smart, and then doing
stupid shit like applying to much precision where less is used by the
rest of the world, and invariably using too little where it is needed,
and then they have a wreck, and want to call it "an accident" when they
should be charged with negligence.

It was an accident that we let them make laws that allow any dumb
mutant to get a license to drive. Because invariably some other retarded
mutant observes said mutant driving, and then picks up his mutated foul
driving habits.
 
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:06:00 -0700 (PDT), rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 2, 9:08 am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
rickman wrote:

 > On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy > <secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

 >> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin
 >> >> <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

 
 >>> Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.
 >>> John
 >>   PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.
 
 > Hmmm...  I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
 > volts!

How exactly?

Jerry

The usual way. It's not a magic voltmeter!

Rick
Click to expand...

It would have to be to be able to measure zero volts, since such feats
are not possible.
 
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:02:36 -0400, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:

rickman wrote:
On Jun 2, 9:08 am, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
rickman wrote:

On Jun 1, 10:33 pm, ItsASecretDummy > <secretasian...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:20 -0700, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:


Single-electron transistors can sense, well, single electrons.
John
PMTs can be good enough to detect single photon events.

Hmmm... I have a $35 digital multimeter that can measure exactly 0
volts!

How exactly?

Jerry

The usual way. It's not a magic voltmeter!

Rick

I meant not "How, exactly", but "exact to what extent".

Jerry
Click to expand...
Ahh... the resolution question again. He already answered that one
too, you just have to read what was written.

Another resolution question is the guys trying to determine the age of
the universe.

I would think it quite hard to look that far back because things would
be so distorted that even your determination of how far back you are
"seeing" could be off an order of magnitude. 13.5 Billion years could
really be 135 Billion.

See you on 12/20/2012.
 
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