What is the name of the governing body on industrial standar

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Gregory
<jim.greg@ntlworld.com> wrote (in
<8sa2e.21884$ME3.3501@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net&gt about 'What is the name of
the governing body on industrial standardisation (standardization) in
USA?', on Tue, 29 Mar 2005:

Funnily enough, in the UK we do not have an equivalent body to your UL.

Well, we do, but it doesn't do electrical products (yet!). It's the Loss
Prevention Council, and it was, like UL, set up by the insurance
industry. Safety of 'consumer electronics' was, however, handled by
British Standards (in BS 415) from 1931; the first edition covered only
mains-supplied 'battery eliminators'.

On this side of the pond, most houses are not wood-framed (except in old
Norwegian villages, where the 'frames' tended to be 30 to 60 cm square
baulks which would not burn easily!), so our electrical safety standards
have tended to concentrate on electric shock rather more than on fire
prevention. In a land of 120 V mains and timber-framed houses, it's not
surprising that UL has opposite priorities.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Guy Macon]

John Woodgate wrote:

Jim Gregory wrote:

Funnily enough, in the UK we do not have an equivalent body to your UL.

Well, we do, but it doesn't do electrical products (yet!). It's the Loss
Prevention Council, and it was, like UL, set up by the insurance
industry. Safety of 'consumer electronics' was, however, handled by
British Standards (in BS 415) from 1931; the first edition covered only
mains-supplied 'battery eliminators'.

On this side of the pond, most houses are not wood-framed (except in old
Norwegian villages, where the 'frames' tended to be 30 to 60 cm square
baulks which would not burn easily!), so our electrical safety standards
have tended to concentrate on electric shock rather more than on fire
prevention. In a land of 120 V mains and timber-framed houses, it's not
surprising that UL has opposite priorities.

UL doesn't do house wiring. That's NEC (National Electrical Code) country.
UL does product-safety testing and certification.
See [ http://www.ul.com/about/index.html ].

UK is single phase 230V and neutral, right? Split phase 115-neutral-115
(230 total) wiring would have about the same shock potential as the US
system.

 

[Jim Gregory]

Any country that uses 110V -120V in domestic (and commercial premises)
wiring must use twice as much copper and brass by weight in infrastructure
as needed for a 220V - 240V supply, based on same MegaWatts of lighting and
power used (wasteful is that trend).
National EHV grid potentials are the same most of the world, but after
comparative distribution, the halved step-down voltage seems uneconomical in
practice.
Incidentally, to come into line with other places, we have dropped our AC
line specification from 240V to 230V in the last twelve years.
ELCBs or RCDs can trip very quickly indeed if exposed live mains is touched
accidentally.
For the very reason you suggested, some temporary-site safety step-down
transformers give 115V centre-tapped, but it is not *standard* here yet, but
no safety earth (a separate neutral) is possible with a balanced system,
unless 4-pole connectors are adopted.

Question
If a house fire were blamed on the failure of a piece of AC equipment that
turned out forensically not to have UL (or LPC) certification, and the
occupier had paid his insurance premium, would resulting fire damage claims
for contents and property still be paid out nevertheless?


"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:uDpv4OQgTbSCFw2l@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote (in
114jbiosabnq987@corp.supernews.com&gt about 'What is the name of the
governing body on industrial standardisation (standardization) in USA?', on
Tue, 29 Mar 2005:


UL doesn't do house wiring. That's NEC (National Electrical Code)
country. UL does product-safety testing and certification. See [
http://www.ul.com/about/index.html ].

I know that. UL is concerned with appliances burning up. Look at all the
stuff in IEC 60950 about 'fire enclosures'. That's almost all derived form
UL.

UK is single phase 230V and neutral, right? Split phase 115-neutral-115
(230 total) wiring would have about the same shock potential as the US
system.

But you are less likely to touch both 'lives' than one 'live' and neutral
or ground.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:uDpv4OQgTbSCFw2l@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote (in
114jbiosabnq987@corp.supernews.com&gt about 'What is the name of the
governing body on industrial standardisation (standardization) in USA?', on
Tue, 29 Mar 2005:


UL doesn't do house wiring. That's NEC (National Electrical Code)
country. UL does product-safety testing and certification. See [
http://www.ul.com/about/index.html ].

I know that. UL is concerned with appliances burning up. Look at all the
stuff in IEC 60950 about 'fire enclosures'. That's almost all derived form
UL.

UK is single phase 230V and neutral, right? Split phase 115-neutral-115
(230 total) wiring would have about the same shock potential as the US
system.

But you are less likely to touch both 'lives' than one 'live' and neutral
or ground.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:18:10 GMT, "Jim Gregory"
<jim.greg@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Any country that uses 110V -120V in domestic (and commercial premises)
wiring must use twice as much copper and brass by weight in infrastructure
as needed for a 220V - 240V supply, based on same MegaWatts of lighting and
power used (wasteful is that trend).
National EHV grid potentials are the same most of the world, but after
comparative distribution, the halved step-down voltage seems uneconomical in
practice.
Incidentally, to come into line with other places, we have dropped our AC
line specification from 240V to 230V in the last twelve years.
ELCBs or RCDs can trip very quickly indeed if exposed live mains is touched
accidentally.
For the very reason you suggested, some temporary-site safety step-down
transformers give 115V centre-tapped, but it is not *standard* here yet, but
no safety earth (a separate neutral) is possible with a balanced system,
unless 4-pole connectors are adopted.

Balanced 240 would certainly work. In the US, big appliances like air
conditioners and clothes driers in fact use 240 volts with a 3-prong
plug: 120/120/ground. That's actually the ideal circuit: it has the
low shock properties of US 120, but the low fire hazard of European
240.

Question
If a house fire were blamed on the failure of a piece of AC equipment that
turned out forensically not to have UL (or LPC) certification, and the
occupier had paid his insurance premium, would resulting fire damage claims
for contents and property still be paid out nevertheless?

Of course. Nothing but self-inflicted arson would void an insurance
policy.

John

 

[Rich The Newsgropup Wacko]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:24:30 -0800, lektric.dan@gmail.com wrote:

In Britain it is the BSI.
In Germany it is DIN.
The ISO is multi-national.
The European Union now has the CEN.

What is the closest central technical authority in the USA?

There's not a single agency. There are many government and civillian
agencies that provide "guidelines" which may be incorporated into legal
codes (such as electrical or building codes). Some of thse are:

NFPA - Nat'nl Fire Prevention Assn.
ASTM - American Socity for Testing and Materials
ANSI - American Nat'nl Standards Inst.
ASM - American Society of Metals
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
ASME - American Society of Manufacturing Engineers

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( http://www.lib.lsu.edu/gov/alpha )

will have guns.

And oh, yah - "outlaws". Heh.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Jim Gregory]

Thanks Rich
Short List helped.
Long List says it all!

"Rich The Newsgropup Wacko" <wacko@example.com> wrote in message
newsan.2001.07.13.18.12.05.231935@example.com...

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:24:30 -0800, lektric.dan@gmail.com wrote:

In Britain it is the BSI.
In Germany it is DIN.
The ISO is multi-national.
The European Union now has the CEN.

What is the closest central technical authority in the USA?

There's not a single agency. There are many government and civillian
agencies that provide "guidelines" which may be incorporated into legal
codes (such as electrical or building codes). Some of thse are:

NFPA - Nat'nl Fire Prevention Assn.
ASTM - American Socity for Testing and Materials
ANSI - American Nat'nl Standards Inst.
ASM - American Society of Metals
SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
ASME - American Society of Manufacturing Engineers

Plus the myriad alphabet soup of govt. agencies.

When guns are outlawed, only the:
Accounting and Auditing Policy Committee (AAPC)........
...........
Yucca Mountain Project Office
Yucca Mountain Site Characterization Project
( http://www.lib.lsu.edu/gov/alpha )

will have guns.

And oh, yah - "outlaws". Heh.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Fred Abse]

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:59:37 +0000, Rich The Newsgropup Wacko wrote:

A hell of a list - snipped.

You forgot the American Duct Tape Council, Rich

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Fred Abse wrote:

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:59:37 +0000, Rich The Newsgropup Wacko wrote:

A hell of a list - snipped.

You forgot the American Duct Tape Council, Rich

Not to mention their bitter rival, the "American Duck Tape Council"


--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:30:40 -0800, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:06:22 GMT, "Jim Gregory"
jim.greg@ntlworld.com> wrote:

In Britain it is the BSI.
In Germany it is DIN.
The ISO is multi-national.
The European Union now has the CEN.


I don't think we have one.

John

What's a "standard"? Isn't it something to be ignored ?

Standards are great things. That's why we have so many of them to choose
from.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
(Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.)

 

[martin griffith]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:07:11 +0100, in sci.electronics.design Pooh
Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

martin griffith wrote:

On 28 Mar 2005 09:33:05 -0800, in sci.electronics.design "Tim Shoppa"
shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:

FEMA, but generally only after the fact.

Where I work we have a direct hotline to/from FEMA. The "alert" light
bulb on the phone is always blinking. Our joke is that
they think everything's an emergency

Tim.
any funny examples?
I've only got a couple from TUV, about 230V clearance on a pcb,
boring but annoying

I don't understand. What's funny about 230V clearances on a pcb ?

I *loved* UL's Hot Flaming Oil test though. They were clearly a bunch of
pyromaniacs !


Graham
TUV said that they wanted X mm clearance on some tracks, no prob,but

it was a very tight layout. I had a really enjoyable time doing it.
Then they said what if they make the boards wrong, ie too small, by
10%, in the photo process, so can you increase the clearance by 10%.

But I said if the board was 10% smaller it wouldnt fit on the
mounting holes and most of the components wouldnt fit, and we would
reject them. Nope they said....

The client must have got the "straight out of college" engineer


martin


Opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Tim Shoppa
<shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote (in
<1112108747.575178.168460@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com&gt about 'What is
the name of the governing body on industrial standardisation
(standardization) in USA?', on Tue, 29 Mar 2005:

FEMA, whatever that is

Joke answers:

Federation of European Motorcycle Associations?

Farm Equipment Manufacturers Assocation?

is not a National Standards Body like BSI or Din

In the US, there really isn't anything like BSI or DIN.

NIST is the closest if you insist on a government agency, but they
don't really do the same thing (although they do a lot!). The
acronymical replacement of NBS with NIST might make you think that
they'll do more technological standards but they don't.

I thought NIST was more like our (UK) National Physical Laboratory,

which is a national 'standards' body with a different meaning of
'standard'... the UK standard metre, volt, amp, ohm etc. live there.

The NPL campus is very interesting. It contains an apparently infinite
number of standard acres, and the time taken to find your way around it
without a map is one standard fortnight.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote (in
<308j411ptdemfv5a87h245i0qn0eegglva@4ax.com&gt about 'What is the name of
the governing body on industrial standardisation (standardization) in
USA?', on Tue, 29 Mar 2005:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:17:38 +0100, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote (in
hcri41dgapcdlh90d2hnjhndqm0mssbpvk@4ax.com&gt about 'What is the name of
the governing body on industrial standardisation (standardization) in
USA?', on Tue, 29 Mar 2005:

Federal Emergency Management Agency.

http://www.fema.gov/

Thank you. I will worship there daily. (;-)

I wouldn't if I were you. FEMA has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with
standards... they only coordinate the multi-organization handling of
emergencies.

Note the hyperbolic verb, and the smiley.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk