What are everyone's design procedures in tackling a circuit

[Mike]

On Sat, 01 May 2004 20:29:43 GMT, Joerg wrote:

Hi John,

It's even more retro in my case. Mechanical sharpener, sometimes grandpa's old
knife. Good old hand held eraser.

I have never seen an electric eraser...

Just imagine a very small vibrator.

In the olden days, no draftsman would have been without one, along with the
velum. I haven't used velum (and I never had an electric eraser) since
around 1988. I do miss it: schematics were _far_ more compact, and
contained _far_ more information, in the days of velum. Mentor still views
documentation as a four letter word (they have trouble spelling), and
Cadence refuses to even consider its existence.

-- Mike --

 

[Glenn Garrett]

"Dan Charette" <dan@thesonicfrogFUZZ.com> wrote in message
news:rsr790hhk2cpka5lu71chknbgulbmlcokq@4ax.com...

Hi Joerg...

Thanks for all the valuable info. It's interesting to hear the
different methodologies by which people organize themselves to perform
very similar tasks. It's kinda like a chili cookoff or something.
Everyone has their own recipe and in the end, there are a bunch of
pots of chili sitting around to ladel up and make the tummy smile.

You know, with regards to your database comment, I do have a parallel
question with this in mind. As our projects here become larger and
more ornate I'm starting to find myself bogged down with generating
approximate costs to determine what a piece of gear might cost. What
would really be so useful would be to somehow correlate my parts list
from my schematics into some kind of database that contains current
pricing and the quantity pricing breaks on those parts. Then, with a
quick little number entry, I can determine with relative accuracy a
total parts cost if I choose to build 1, 10, 25, etc. units so that I
may be able to better plan a strategy for what it'll take for an
investment.
Does that make sense? Is that something that you worry about with
your design duties or is that a parts ordering/accouting person that
handles that. It's definately a job in and of itself on say a larger
project. I can see very easily how choosing to build 10 units of
widget A or 25 of them could really screw up the long term planning on
the product and it's final retail price. We all know it's about
quantity, but finding a nice way to be able to really accurately
predict the outcome would be extremely handy.

Thanks...

Dan


Dan Charette {dan_at_thesonicfrogFUZZ-dot-com}
Remove the "FUZZ" and replace the underscores and
such from my e-mail address to contact me.

"I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong."

A really good and cheap component database program is Trillogy Design's
'Parts and Vendors'.
You can have multiple vendors and price breaks and you can type in a
manufacturing quantity and instantly see the total material cost. It can
import BOM's from your PCB program.

Glenn

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 1 May 2004 21:26:15 -0700, Mike <mike@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2004 20:29:43 GMT, Joerg wrote:

Hi John,

It's even more retro in my case. Mechanical sharpener, sometimes grandpa's old
knife. Good old hand held eraser.

I have never seen an electric eraser...

Just imagine a very small vibrator.

My Bruning doesn't vibrate, it spins. AC induction motor. Most macho.

In the olden days, no draftsman would have been without one, along with the
velum. I haven't used velum (and I never had an electric eraser) since
around 1988. I do miss it: schematics were _far_ more compact, and
contained _far_ more information, in the days of velum. Mentor still views
documentation as a four letter word (they have trouble spelling), and
Cadence refuses to even consider its existence.

I like drawing on vellum because I don't have to slow down my thinking
with library considerations, and I can add all sorts of notes and
calculations near each circuit for later reference.

PADS (acquired by Mentor!) makes pretty good looking schematics. I
give a blueline of my hand-drawn stuff to my drafting guy, who enters
it into PADS-LOGIC and then lays out the board. I chronically lose
little 8.5x11 sheets of paper, but I never lose a 22x34 sheet of
vellum!

John

 

[Mike]

On Sun, 02 May 2004 18:45:52 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 1 May 2004 21:26:15 -0700, Mike <mike@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2004 20:29:43 GMT, Joerg wrote:

Hi John,

It's even more retro in my case. Mechanical sharpener, sometimes grandpa's old
knife. Good old hand held eraser.

I have never seen an electric eraser...

Just imagine a very small vibrator.


My Bruning doesn't vibrate, it spins. AC induction motor. Most macho.

In the olden days, no draftsman would have been without one, along with the
velum. I haven't used velum (and I never had an electric eraser) since
around 1988. I do miss it: schematics were _far_ more compact, and
contained _far_ more information, in the days of velum. Mentor still views
documentation as a four letter word (they have trouble spelling), and
Cadence refuses to even consider its existence.

I like drawing on vellum because I don't have to slow down my thinking
with library considerations, and I can add all sorts of notes and
calculations near each circuit for later reference.

PADS (acquired by Mentor!) makes pretty good looking schematics. I
give a blueline of my hand-drawn stuff to my drafting guy, who enters
it into PADS-LOGIC and then lays out the board. I chronically lose
little 8.5x11 sheets of paper, but I never lose a 22x34 sheet of
vellum!

They may look good, but I'll bet you can't do some really important things
that are incredibly simple to do with vellum. For example, all those notes
and calculations. Can you add those to your PADS schematic? I'll bet by the
time you're done, it's not worth the effort. I like vellum for the same
reasons you do, but I can't netlist it for simulation or LVS, so my last
vellum schematic was in 1987 or so.

Then there's all the stuff that you might think a computer could do even
_better_ than vellum, but it still can't. What about links on a schematic?
Links to documentation, and to the schematic hierarchy. Why should the
schematics above and below this one in the hierarchy be any more than one
click away? What about a netlist? In a reasonable amount of time, with
devices sorted by type and number? Why shouldn't schematic documentation be
accessible by a single mouse click? Why can't I color wires according to
their speed, or their sensitivity, or their logic level, or whatever else I
can think of?

I dunno. Maybe there's some hope, but I'm not holding out.

-- Mike --

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 2 May 2004 22:25:25 -0700, Mike <mike@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 02 May 2004 18:45:52 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 1 May 2004 21:26:15 -0700, Mike <mike@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2004 20:29:43 GMT, Joerg wrote:

Hi John,

It's even more retro in my case. Mechanical sharpener, sometimes grandpa's old
knife. Good old hand held eraser.

I have never seen an electric eraser...

Just imagine a very small vibrator.


My Bruning doesn't vibrate, it spins. AC induction motor. Most macho.

In the olden days, no draftsman would have been without one, along with the
velum. I haven't used velum (and I never had an electric eraser) since
around 1988. I do miss it: schematics were _far_ more compact, and
contained _far_ more information, in the days of velum. Mentor still views
documentation as a four letter word (they have trouble spelling), and
Cadence refuses to even consider its existence.

I like drawing on vellum because I don't have to slow down my thinking
with library considerations, and I can add all sorts of notes and
calculations near each circuit for later reference.

PADS (acquired by Mentor!) makes pretty good looking schematics. I
give a blueline of my hand-drawn stuff to my drafting guy, who enters
it into PADS-LOGIC and then lays out the board. I chronically lose
little 8.5x11 sheets of paper, but I never lose a 22x34 sheet of
vellum!

They may look good, but I'll bet you can't do some really important things
that are incredibly simple to do with vellum. For example, all those notes
and calculations. Can you add those to your PADS schematic? I'll bet by the
time you're done, it's not worth the effort. I like vellum for the same
reasons you do, but I can't netlist it for simulation or LVS, so my last
vellum schematic was in 1987 or so.

I'd never simulate the same schematic that a board is made from; that
would be way too complex. If I do simulate, it's just a tiny chunk of
the whole design.

Then there's all the stuff that you might think a computer could do even
_better_ than vellum, but it still can't. What about links on a schematic?
Links to documentation, and to the schematic hierarchy. Why should the
schematics above and below this one in the hierarchy be any more than one
click away? What about a netlist? In a reasonable amount of time, with
devices sorted by type and number? Why shouldn't schematic documentation be
accessible by a single mouse click? Why can't I color wires according to
their speed, or their sensitivity, or their logic level, or whatever else I
can think of?

I dunno. Maybe there's some hope, but I'm not holding out.

-- Mike --

PADS-Logic (the schematic thingie) does output a nice BOM, in our
company format, and that file typically needs only a few tweaks to be
an official company parts list. That's nice, because I like doing
parts lists about as much as root canals.

Agreed, what schematic programs should do is allow hidden stuff,
sketches of waveforms, pictures, notes, and links. The guys who write
the PCB layout code are programmers and sometimes PCB layout people,
and have a narrow view of the process. The best we can do is to
release a README.TXT file with every board rev, chatting about the
rev, what was done and why. We also have a \NEXT\ directory on one of
our network drives, with a file for each rev of each product or board.
Anybody in the company can add a comment about a change they'd like
made next rev. The mfg people love this.

Oh, I never do heirachical schematics for PC boards. I want to see
every part by reference designator. It's OK for FPGAs where the parts
are sort of virtual anynow.

John

 

[Nico Coesel]

bigcat@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) wrote:

Tim Wescott <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message news:<1096afneco2bn66@corp.supernews.com>...
Joerg wrote:

In general I've found that saying "we'll document it when we're done" is
form-fit-function compatible with "build it, ship it, wonder what you did".


I've always handwritten design notes because it allows speed, which is
very important, a permanent record, permits mixing all types of
text/diagrams/etc, and adding notes later on. I've always though there

I always keep my handwritten notes because they show the design
decisions.

must be something computer-based to do this, but have not found
anything really satisfactory. I use a text editor a fair bit, but it
wont do everything. Is there a package you use that allows all this to
be done, and most importantly, done fast? I'm talking here about the
as I go along stuff, not final paperwork.

Microsoft Visio is quite good for making quick drawings which are also
usefull for the final documentation. Usually a picture says more than
a thousend words... In most cases I start with a specification made
with MS Word and some pictures. Then I start building and change the
specification when necessary.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

 

[N. Thornton]

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:<4093FF35.3BA4AF43@removethispacbell.net>...

The one thing I wish all manufacturers would learn is to make budgetary
prices available without any gimmickry. When it says "call" or plain
nothing I usually move on, no time for that. Some manufacturers seem to
have no idea how much business they are losing because they fail to state
budgetary pricing on the web site.

It never ceases to amaze me that this practice is so widespread. I
have dropped potential buys too many times to count, in all areas of
life. If they wont give a price, then unless its a specific item youre
willing to waste a lot of extra time over, its a waste of time.

No price says 2 things to me loud and clear:
1. We're too embarrassed about it to tell you what we're selling it
for
2. If its going to be a right run around just to get basic
information, you know youre in for problems dealing with this company
3. The company is incompetent and losing a lot of money over it.

And none of those things encourage anyone to buy. The only things that
should be displayed with out a price are snoot value items, like B&O
stereos. Everything has a price and its silly to pretend otherwise.


Regards, NT

PS I see I cant count

 

[Jim Thompson]

On 3 May 2004 17:32:45 -0700, bigcat@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) wrote:

[snip]

No price says 2 things to me loud and clear:
1. We're too embarrassed about it to tell you what we're selling it
for
2. If its going to be a right run around just to get basic
information, you know youre in for problems dealing with this company
3. The company is incompetent and losing a lot of money over it.

And none of those things encourage anyone to buy. The only things that
should be displayed with out a price are snoot value items, like B&O
stereos. Everything has a price and its silly to pretend otherwise.


Regards, NT

[snip]

"Everything has a price" reminds me of a joke ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Joerg]

Hi NT,

Absolutely agree. I even wrote to some big semi companies about it. Didn't receive a response but didn't really
expect one. They just don't get it. Needless to say I haven't designed in a single part from these.

The only time I put up with price haggling was when we bought our last two cars. "Oh, I made a mistake when I told
you that price out there on the lot, blah, blah, blah". So, I rolled up the sleeves. About five hours later the
sales guy, his boss, and the big boss where all close to a nervous breakdown and pretty much agreed to something
close to what we had offered five hours earlier. So I guess between the three of them they made less than minimum
wage for these five hours. The 2nd car was haggled out in under two hours and the sales guy said he'd blame me if he
would now develop an ulcer. Next time I'll go Internet.

Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[N. Thornton]

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:<4096E91B.C9647D27@removethispacbell.net>...

Hi NT,

Absolutely agree. I even wrote to some big semi companies about it. Didn't receive a response but didn't really
expect one. They just don't get it. Needless to say I haven't designed in a single part from these.

The only time I put up with price haggling was when we bought our last two cars. "Oh, I made a mistake when I told
you that price out there on the lot, blah, blah, blah". So, I rolled up the sleeves. About five hours later the
sales guy, his boss, and the big boss where all close to a nervous breakdown and pretty much agreed to something
close to what we had offered five hours earlier. So I guess between the three of them they made less than minimum
wage for these five hours. The 2nd car was haggled out in under two hours and the sales guy said he'd blame me if he
would now develop an ulcer. Next time I'll go Internet.

Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com

Hehe. I'm tempted to suggest it was their decision to muck about for 5
hours, they could have just agreed with you in the first place.

I've never bought a car online, dont you just go through the same
haggling and niggling but in slow motion?


Regards, NT

 

[N. Thornton]

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message news:<ekpd90tii988k0a7ajum97l0sccbh4endk@4ax.com>...

On 3 May 2004 17:32:45 -0700, bigcat@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) wrote:

stereos. Everything has a price and its silly to pretend otherwise.

"Everything has a price" reminds me of a joke ;-)

heh. I kinda should rephrase that to 'all goods and services have a
price.' I'm not quite jaded enough to think /everything/ has, though
almost everything certainly seems to.

Regards, NT

 

[Joerg]

Hi NT,

Not really. A friend bought a car online. He simply offered what he was willing to pay and waited for responses, then took
one that he liked which was close enough to drive over there. All that was left to do was the paperwork, climb in, insert
the key, and vrooom. No haggling. Oh yeah, and they had free hot dogs which wasn't mentioned in the email.

Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:21:33 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
<hoq590dp51g231nmq5r4jn54999q76r25j@4ax.com>:

I hate those plastic proto things, and can't visualize the circuit
when the wires keep overlapping and then disappearing inside the
block.
I have never used one in my life, tried once, but gave up after a few minutes.

I have used veroboard a lot...
Some logic I just stripped flatcable and used that to make connections on the
back.
Low capacitance!
For low power RF just solder on coper side of PCB for test.
Or make a small board.