what a horrible data sheet

J

John Larkin

Guest
https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf

Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

Not a lot makes sense.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
 
John Larkin wrote...
https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf
Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.
Click to expand...

You could ohm it out. Parts like this require
a hands-on before you make the footprint anyway.


--
Thanks,
- Win
 
On 24 Jun 2019 18:23:09 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com>
wrote:

John Larkin wrote...

https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf
Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

You could ohm it out. Parts like this require
a hands-on before you make the footprint anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is an eval board.

It looks ideal for what I plan to do, but I might just use a bunch of
10EP parts unless I can get sure about this one.

The Diodes Inc web site invites me to ask for tech support, and
provides no way to do that.

How can people publish stuff this bad? I sure hope the silicon is
better than the data sheet.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:15:42 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

It looks ideal for what I plan to do, but I might just use a bunch of
10EP parts unless I can get sure about this one.
Click to expand...

Try support@diodes.com

Just guessing but it works for a lot of domains.
 
Just fill in the form on

https://www.diodes.com/about/contact-us/technical-support/

We have very good support from Diodes

Cheers

Klaus
 
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 8:37:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf

Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

Not a lot makes sense.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Click to expand...

Hey - at least it's in English. I've been running into data sheets written in Chinese.
 
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 06:16:25 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Just fill in the form on

https://www.diodes.com/about/contact-us/technical-support/

We have very good support from Diodes

Cheers

Klaus
Click to expand...

There is no form, mostly a blank page. I'm running Firefox.

I hate forms anyhow. What's wrong with email?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
 
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 5:37:07 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf

Is the thermal pad ground?
Click to expand...

I've seen worse recently from an even-bigger manufacturer (Microchip).
I decided to start a poll on Dave Jones's blog:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-would-you-interpret-this/

Spoiler: the majority vote appears to have been correct. It works OK
with the pad grounded or not.

Another helpful tip they left off of the data sheet was the presence of
protection diodes from the open-drain pins to Vdd. The specs say that
the part will run from 1.8V and that the I/O pins will tolerate 5.5V,
but they don't point out the headroom requirement that keeps the 'open'
drains from being pulled up beyond about Vdd+1.2V. That one got me. :(

> Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

They're just plain wrong. Power vias between the capacitors and pins?
This must be one of those cases where "everybody knows" you need solid
planes for 6 different rails.

I'd be nervous about using this part without trying it out in person.
I'm sure it's fine, but if one of the ADI/LTC clock parts did something
similar, I'd choose it because of the data sheet alone.

-- john, KE5FX
 
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:23:21 PM UTC-7, Winfield Hill wrote:
You could ohm it out. Parts like this require
a hands-on before you make the footprint anyway.
Click to expand...

That's what I did with the MCP23S18 I mentioned in the other message.
It'd be clear enough if the resistance to ground were effectively infinite
or in the Gohm range, or if it was obviously tied to the other ground pins.
But what am I supposed to do if it's on the order of 1 Mohm? The pad is
clearly connected to *something* internal, but they can't be bothered to
elaborate.

I guess I'm supposed to make assumptions about the electrical properties
of their (currently-used) substrate material.

-- john, KE5FX
 
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 12:34:37 -0700 (PDT), "John Miles, KE5FX"
<jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 6:23:21 PM UTC-7, Winfield Hill wrote:
You could ohm it out. Parts like this require
a hands-on before you make the footprint anyway.


That's what I did with the MCP23S18 I mentioned in the other message.
It'd be clear enough if the resistance to ground were effectively infinite
or in the Gohm range, or if it was obviously tied to the other ground pins.
But what am I supposed to do if it's on the order of 1 Mohm? The pad is
clearly connected to *something* internal, but they can't be bothered to
elaborate.
Click to expand...

It's all too common for data sheets to not mention the paddle, or hide
it in some fine print somewhere. We always asign it a pin number and
show it on the schematic decal.

I guess I'm supposed to make assumptions about the electrical properties
of their (currently-used) substrate material.

-- john, KE5FX
Click to expand...

Exactly. What would I ohm the pad to? Assumed ESD diodes?

No response from Diodes so far.

One bad data sheet can spin off hundreds of support requests, or
hundreds of design failures. That's not smart.

I'm going to use MC10EP parts instead of the Pericom/Diodes thing.
They are dual-sourced and have good data sheets. Slower, though.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
 
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 12:26:32 -0700 (PDT), "John Miles, KE5FX"
<jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 5:37:07 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf

Is the thermal pad ground?

I've seen worse recently from an even-bigger manufacturer (Microchip).
I decided to start a poll on Dave Jones's blog:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-would-you-interpret-this/

Spoiler: the majority vote appears to have been correct. It works OK
with the pad grounded or not.

Another helpful tip they left off of the data sheet was the presence of
protection diodes from the open-drain pins to Vdd. The specs say that
the part will run from 1.8V and that the I/O pins will tolerate 5.5V,
but they don't point out the headroom requirement that keeps the 'open'
drains from being pulled up beyond about Vdd+1.2V. That one got me. :(

Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

They're just plain wrong. Power vias between the capacitors and pins?
This must be one of those cases where "everybody knows" you need solid
planes for 6 different rails.
Click to expand...

They also show different packages, that have ground pins!
I'd be nervous about using this part without trying it out in person.
I'm sure it's fine, but if one of the ADI/LTC clock parts did something
similar, I'd choose it because of the data sheet alone.

-- john, KE5FX
Click to expand...

I really just want a big differential fanout, to drive a clock into a
bunch of SFP modules. The Diodes part would be perfect if I could
trust it. There are more weirdnesses than the missing ground.

I asked them if there was an eval board. No response.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
 
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:34:17 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf

Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

Not a lot makes sense.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't expect an improvement, under new DI mgmnt. They don't
actually develop product there - not even diodes.

RL
 
Am 25.06.19 um 21:26 schrieb John Miles, KE5FX:

I'd be nervous about using this part without trying it out in person.
I'm sure it's fine, but if one of the ADI/LTC clock parts did something
similar, I'd choose it because of the data sheet alone.
Click to expand...

Have you seen the case I opened on ADI E2E wrt the LTC6757 (???) sine to
square converter? An open output with some cm of stripline features
funny oscillations. OK, they die out and an open output is not badly
needed, but that does not build confidence. Looks like sth. is going
metastable.

Silently ignored.

cheers, Gerhard
 
On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 2:43:49 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 06:16:25 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Just fill in the form on

https://www.diodes.com/about/contact-us/technical-support/

We have very good support from Diodes

Cheers

Klaus

There is no form, mostly a blank page. I'm running Firefox.

I hate forms anyhow. What's wrong with email?
Click to expand...

Close out Firefox and restart it. If that doesn't work, reboot your machine. It's fine here.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 10:15:51 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On 24 Jun 2019 18:23:09 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

John Larkin wrote...

https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf
Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

You could ohm it out. Parts like this require
a hands-on before you make the footprint anyway.

I don't think there is an eval board.

It looks ideal for what I plan to do, but I might just use a bunch of
10EP parts unless I can get sure about this one.

The Diodes Inc web site invites me to ask for tech support, and
provides no way to do that.

How can people publish stuff this bad? I sure hope the silicon is
better than the data sheet.
Click to expand...

I don't get why you can't find the link for support on the web site. It's at the top of the page under "Contact Us", then "Technical Support". Could that be any more clear???

Some web sites do make it hard to contact support or any other part of the company, but not this one.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 9:23:21 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Larkin wrote...

https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf
Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

You could ohm it out. Parts like this require
a hands-on before you make the footprint anyway.
Click to expand...

What would you ohm it to? Don't tell me ground. I'm looking for a pin number.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 8:37:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI6C59S6005.pdf

Is the thermal pad ground? Figs 1 and 2 make no sense.

Not a lot makes sense.
Click to expand...

Sometimes people make easy things hard. If the thermal pad is ground, which pin would it be connected to internally?

It's a trick question.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 09:35:14 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

Am 25.06.19 um 21:26 schrieb John Miles, KE5FX:

I'd be nervous about using this part without trying it out in person.
I'm sure it's fine, but if one of the ADI/LTC clock parts did something
similar, I'd choose it because of the data sheet alone.

Have you seen the case I opened on ADI E2E wrt the LTC6757 (???) sine to
square converter? An open output with some cm of stripline features
funny oscillations. OK, they die out and an open output is not badly
needed, but that does not build confidence. Looks like sth. is going
metastable.

Silently ignored.

cheers, Gerhard
Click to expand...

No, I missed that somehow.

That's not a super fast comparator... 2.9 ns. Even the rise/fall are
over 1 ns. But it wouldn't take much in the way of bouncies to make a
comparator oscillate.

Source termination is good, to cut the rise/fall current spikes in
half, or more.

I suspect that it's hard to keep good support engineers. Being a FAE
is like having five job interviews a day. It's a great start for a
recent grad, to see what's out there. Good FAEs seldom last; they get
hired away.

The semi people also do everything possible to keep the rabble from
disturbing the chip designers. I guess that I'd get real support if I
bought 7 million chips a month.

But really, it would be a net benefit to everyone to publish good data
sheets.

Sonebody could make a nice career being a free-lance data sheet
editor.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 08:11:22 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 15:31:16 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 2:43:49 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 06:16:25 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Just fill in the form on

https://www.diodes.com/about/contact-us/technical-support/

We have very good support from Diodes

Cheers

Klaus

There is no form, mostly a blank page. I'm running Firefox.

I hate forms anyhow. What's wrong with email?

Close out Firefox and restart it. If that doesn't work, reboot your machine. It's fine here.

I get the same issue at times. Some webpages just don't work on some machines.
Click to expand...

There is no form, on my machine at work or the one at home.

I did phone the SV office, left a voicemail, and eventually got an
email from a guy in Plano TX who says that the paddle is ground. There
are other hazards on the data sheet.

I can get to 3 GHz using EclipsPlus, which will also cost a bit more.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics
 
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 11:11:26 AM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 15:31:16 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 2:43:49 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 06:16:25 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

Just fill in the form on

https://www.diodes.com/about/contact-us/technical-support/

We have very good support from Diodes

Cheers

Klaus

There is no form, mostly a blank page. I'm running Firefox.

I hate forms anyhow. What's wrong with email?

Close out Firefox and restart it. If that doesn't work, reboot your machine. It's fine here.

I get the same issue at times. Some webpages just don't work on some machines.
Click to expand...

That is hugely rare for me. If I can open the page in another browser, it almost always will open in the problem browser if I close it and reopen it. Heck, Firefox will periodically start crapping on my network connection so I can't get decent ping times. Restart it and all is well.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
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