Weller WTCPT tip not hot enough

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:06:21 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Does this unit have a temperature-calibration pot?

No. The Weller WTCPT has no controls or adjustments. The primary
temperature determining component is the curie point of the magnet in
the tip. At low temperatures, the magnet holds a piston, which pulls
a pair of relay type contacts closed, which then runs the heating
element. When the tip temperature reaches the curie point, the
magnetism disappears, opening the contacts. There's nothing in the
contact assembly that would affect the temperature, except perhaps if
the piston were stuck. That's unlikely because of the huge clearances
involved. If it's cycling, then only the tip can affect the
temperature threshold.

Weller manuals:
<http://bama.sbc.edu/weller.htm>

WTCPT manual:
<ftp://bama.sbc.edu/downloads/weller/wtcpt/> (215KB)
See section on "Principle of Operation".
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Eeyore]

George Orwell wrote:

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip.

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The idea is to get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking until the
solder finally melts.

I've seen plenty of 'cold' / 'dry' joints arising from the use of 700F tips. I
even told the manufacturing dept of a certain company to change to 800F tips
for a certain process but they moaned that 'the tips wear out faster'. So the
returns rate went up again Bloody idiots.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

"Samuel M. Goldwasser" wrote:

George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it> writes:

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip. It's 15 years old and hasn't seen much action. I
was using it a lot 3 years ago but for the past 2 years it's been sitting
cold in the garage.

The past couple times I've used it lately the tip just didn't seem to get
as hot as I remember. You know how it is with equipment you use for a long
time, you get to know the behavior and what's normal. When I put the
heated tip against the sponge, I barely get much of a sizzle. Solder barely
melts but does melt, just barely though.

I've gone through the troubleshooting guide Weller provides for this
station, all appears normal. I have 27.3VAC from the power unit. Heater
element reads 12.9 ohms. The "magnastat" opens and closes when the tip is
inserted and removed. Unfortunately the guide doesn't cover a warm tip,
only one that's stone cold or too hot. I don't know what else to check.

I can hear the tip cycling when I turn on the base. It just seems that the
heater doesn't stay on long enough like it used to. Do the tips somehow
lose their temperature calibration? Is it time for a new soldering
station? Any opinions on the WESD51?

You say you "can hear the tip cycling". If that's the case, it would seem
that there can't be anything wrong with the electrical parts. The tip
cycles based on reaching the curie temperature of the magnet.

Have you tried a new tip?

Well there is the issue of lead-free solder too which requires a 50C (90F) or so
hotter tip.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

George Orwell wrote:

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip. It's 15 years old and hasn't seen much action. I
was using it a lot 3 years ago but for the past 2 years it's been sitting
cold in the garage.

The past couple times I've used it lately the tip just didn't seem to get
as hot as I remember. You know how it is with equipment you use for a long
time, you get to know the behavior and what's normal. When I put the
heated tip against the sponge, I barely get much of a sizzle. Solder barely
melts but does melt, just barely though.

Your reply address suggests you are in Italy. But why are you using dizum ?

Are you unaware of the extra temperature required to melt the lead-free solder
now mandated in the EU ?

Graha,

 

[Jamie]

Dave Platt wrote:

In article <8m63b4lfhlmu0u8mgfj5mtlb7g81202v7r@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:


Then, I realized that the
one thing that I was doing in the shop, but not at the other
locations, was using the iron to melt plastic parts. I tended to use
it for plastic welding and drilling. I would clean and tin the tip
immediately afterwards, but apparently the damage was already done.
I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but something in the plastic
might be removing or trashing the plating on the tip.


My guess is that the breakdown of the plastic was releasing a
halogen-rich vapor, either from the plastic itself (e.g. PVC is
polyvinyl chloride and can release chlorine-rich combustion products)
or from a fire retardant (often chlorine- or bromine-based).

It would not surprise me if such halogen-rich compounds would be
chemically-active enough to corrode the iron plating on a soldering
tip, and eventually expose the underlying copper.

Which is why they formulate compounds used for conductor to not do that

these days.

My place of employment uses non halogen compounds and low if no
chlorine type chemicals in the plastics used in common cable and
wire products.

I've seen many times copper wire eroded inside just from its own
PVC insulation due to older chemical mixes which we don't use any more.
--
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[Eeyore]

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
George Orwell wrote:

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip. It's 15 years old and hasn't seen much action.
I was using it a lot 3 years ago but for the past 2 years it's been sitting

cold in the garage.

The past couple times I've used it lately the tip just didn't seem to get
as hot as I remember. You know how it is with equipment you use for a
long time, you get to know the behavior and what's normal. When I put the
heated tip against the sponge, I barely get much of a sizzle. Solder
barely melts but does melt, just barely though.

Your reply address suggests you are in Italy. But why are you using dizum
?

Are you unaware of the extra temperature required to melt the lead-free
solder now mandated in the EU ?


Just to be clear though, only mandated for items placed on the market after
June 2006, and which don't have a waiver. Items manufactured prior to that
using conventional leaded solder, can continue to be repaired / reworked /
modified with leaded solder and non RoHS compliant components. New items for
non commercial i.e. amateur use, can still be constructed in whatever
component and solder technology you like.

Absolutely, although we have no idea what he's soldering. I still prefer 800F
tips for quick neat soldering.

Graham

 

[Jim Adney]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:45:52 +0100 "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

Remember to replace the shroud that screws on and retains the tip, it is
part of the magnetic "circuit" and if absent causes that sort of problem.

No, it's not part of the magnetic circuit. The magnestat works just
fine without the sleeve. The only problem is that without the sleeve,
when the tip becomes non-magnetic at the Curie temp it falls out of
the iron.

Also if you're careful , ie parallel jaw pliers, you can pull off the
magnastat of a worn tip and change the temp on another good but wrong temp
tip.

Now THAT's a useful tip! Thanks.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Jim Adney]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:56:04 -0700 Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I did some Googling for soldering iron tips that were specifically
designed for lead-free soldering. I found several, but none that
bothered to mention the difference between ordinary and lead-free
tips. I'll guess that it's pure marketing and that there's no real
difference in construction, other than operating at about 50F higher
in temperature.

The tips are made of copper, but copper is slightly soluble in
tin-lead solder, so the copper is plated with iron, which is much less
soluble. To keep the iron from rusting, they do some sort of plating
over the iron. Finally the very tip of the tip is tinned with solder.
I suspect that one difference between a Rohs tip and a non-Rohs tip
would be what solder alloy the tip was tinned with.

It's also possible that they use a slightly different alloy in the
Curie point sensor to change the temp. set point, but I doubt it.

Maybe the thermal contact between the old tip and the new one got so
bad that there could be 150 deg difference in the temp between them.
Seems unlikely, but I suppose it's possible since the tip is exposed
but the sensor is not.

I'm glad you found a simple solution. In 30 years of working with
these WTCP irons, I've never seen a problem like yours.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Jim Adney]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The idea is to get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking until the
solder finally melts.

I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I've seen plenty of 'cold' / 'dry' joints arising from the use of 700F tips. I
even told the manufacturing dept of a certain company to change to 800F tips
for a certain process but they moaned that 'the tips wear out faster'. So the
returns rate went up again Bloody idiots.

Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints, regardless
of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably a poor way to overcome poor
technique. Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into
the joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks like a
good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

We've been using Rohs solder for quite a few years now, and I don't
have a bit of trouble with it using a 700 F tip.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Rich Webb]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[snip...snip...]

There are some interesting notes here about why the 'standard' tips burn out
quickly, when used with lead-free

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

Interesting phrase there: "Clean the tip on a watery swamp." That one
required a quick mental recalibration...

On that issue, though, what are your thoughts on the use of brass
turnings as a tip cleaner vice a dunk in the swamp? I switched over to
the bowl of brass a while ago and now prefer it to the damp sponge.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

 

[Eeyore]

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote

Are you unaware of the extra temperature required to melt the lead-free
solder now mandated in the EU ?

Just to be clear though, only mandated for items placed on the market
after June 2006, and which don't have a waiver. Items manufactured prior to

that using conventional leaded solder, can continue to be repaired /
reworked
/ modified with leaded solder and non RoHS compliant components. New items
for non commercial i.e. amateur use, can still be constructed in whatever
component and solder technology you like.

Absolutely, although we have no idea what he's soldering. I still prefer
800F tips for quick neat soldering.

I still use 700s because of the problem of 800s burning out quicker when
left idling all day,

I don't let that happen and re-tin and wipe the tip regularly. I probably
'waste' as much solder as I use !

Plus Farnell IIRC sells some aggressive (iron) oxide remover that can help
restore a 'damaged' tip. It comes in a little circular tin.

but I might try 800s again, if only for the improvement
on the dreaded lead-free. I only said about the RoHS regs because there will
be a lot of people reading the thread, who perhaps wouldn't understand the
implications of the legislation. A while back, there was a lot of confusion
and misconceptions about what it meant to the service industry, not helped
by a couple of trade bulletins on the subject which were put out by at least
one major Jap manufacturer, and one soldering equipment manufacturer, and
which gave entirely the wrong impression. It was this which prompted me to
write the article.

Fair comment.

Graham

 

[whit3rd]

On Aug 23, 11:37 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:25:14 +0200 (CEST), George Orwell
What does it mean to burn up a tip?

The outer plating disappears.  The part that needs to be cleaned and
tinned burns up (oxidizes) if left hot and sitting around for 10+
hours per day.  Eventually, I can't tin it any more.

The tips are copper, with an iron-alloy slug for temperature
control, and iron/silver plated. To re-tin after the silver is gone,
use silver solder (90% Ag kind of silver solder... jewelry craft
suppliers will sell by the ounce). It takes at least a hot
propane torch, MAPP or air/acetylene is better, to get to
temperature for this kind of operation.

 

[nobody >]

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Jim Adney" <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The idea is
to get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking until
the
solder finally melts.
I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I've seen plenty of 'cold' / 'dry' joints arising from the use of 700F
tips. I
even told the manufacturing dept of a certain company to change to 800F
tips
for a certain process but they moaned that 'the tips wear out faster'. So
the
returns rate went up again Bloody idiots.
Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints, regardless
of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably a poor way to overcome poor
technique.

I would absolutely dispute that statement


Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into
the joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks like a
good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

??

We've been using Rohs solder for quite a few years now, and I don't
have a bit of trouble with it using a 700 F tip.



I would suggest Jim, that it does rather depend on what exactly you are
soldering. If you are making consistently good lead-free joints with a 700
deg Weller tip in all circumstances, then you are doing a lot better than
most of the major manufacturers. Since they started using the stuff, the
service industry has seen a huge leap in bad joints - and not always in
'traditional' places where you might expect to find them.

Whilst you are correct in that a 700 deg tip melts lead-free solder, it does
not do so anything like as well as it does with leaded solder. Although
lead-free solder does not have as nice a melt / flow characteristic as
leaded in the first place, this undesirable quality is made much worse by
not having enough temperature on it - particularly when soldering a
component with a high thermal inertia, such as a connector or power
semiconductor. The fact that lead-free solder is much worse at wetting most
of the metals commonly used in electronic circuit construction, further
exacerbates the problem, and dictates that more aggressive fluxes are used
in the hateful stuff. Unless these are given the opportunity to do their
work, by allowing them to reach the temperatures they need to at the
soldering surface, then the likely result will be a bad joint - and one
that's invisible to the naked eye, and may not give trouble for some time,
at that. Many bad joints in lead-free that I come across in daily work, show
no signs of external distress at all (except that *all* lead-free joints
look distressed), and do not respond to tapping, freezing or heating. The
only conclusion has to be that whilst the solder has stuck ok to the copper
pad, it hasn't to the component leg inside the joint. Probably, a classic
example of the 'cold' joint that engineers your side of the pond, are fond
of calling them.

Use of a bigger tip to improve its own thermal inertia, is not an option
these days for general electronic service work. A finely pointed conical or
small screwdriver tip, is the order of the day. Component pin densities, and
component placement densities, are such that only a small tip and fine gauge
solder are appropriate in most cases, and it's just not a practical
proposition to keep changing tips, depending on what exactly is on your
bench at the time.

When Weller came up with the 700 deg tip, it was with a traditional tin lead
solder alloy in mind. It is the tip that has always been supplied with these
irons from new. Lead-free melts at a temperature of 30 to 50 deg F higher
than leaded, so based on Weller's determination of 700 deg being appropriate
for leaded solder, you would have to extrapolate this thinking to come up
with a tip temperature of perhaps 750 deg, which is what I have both my
variable temperature controlled station, and vacuum desoldering stations set
to, for lead-free work.

So I'm with Graham on this one (who is, like me, experienced in daily
soldering over many many years) in that for lots of lead-free work with a
Weller Magnastat iron, the best combination is a small tip, but with a lot
of heat behind it in the form of it being an 800 deg rated one. I don't
dispute that you can make good joints in lead-free with a 700 deg tip, as I
do it myself, but it does require very considerable care and experience to
'do it right'. There are now more appropriate soldering tools on the market
for lead-free work, than the good old TCP irons.

There are some interesting notes here about why the 'standard' tips burn out
quickly, when used with lead-free

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

Arfa

Thanks, Arfa for the dissertation on RoHs solder. I'm lucky enough to
have had no dealings with the nasty stuff as most (as in 95%+) of the
repairs in newer stuff I work on is boardswap or exchange. I know I'll
eventually have to mess with it and miss the old leaded stuff I've been
doing since 1959...

I'll have to look up what Pace is doing for RoHs soldering and
desoldering tips.

At least I know my own home WTCPT unit will cope with RoHs solder in a
fashion.

 

[Jim Adney]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:20:47 -0400 Rich Webb
<bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[snip...snip...]
There are some interesting notes here about why the 'standard' tips burn out
quickly, when used with lead-free

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

Interesting phrase there: "Clean the tip on a watery swamp." That one
required a quick mental recalibration...

Yes, that was quite confusing for a few moments.

On that issue, though, what are your thoughts on the use of brass
turnings as a tip cleaner vice a dunk in the swamp? I switched over to
the bowl of brass a while ago and now prefer it to the damp sponge.

I've never used one of those, but I've wondered how they would be. I'd
be concerned that they would wear thru the tip plating quickly and
lead to early death of the tips. Have you noticed any of that?

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Jim Adney]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:57:00 +0100 "N Cook" <diverse8@gazeta.pl>
wrote:

Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:4cm6b45dkh8k9uff91kln7dkpejq5f6leu@4ax.com...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:45:52 +0100 "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

Remember to replace the shroud that screws on and retains the tip, it is
part of the magnetic "circuit" and if absent causes that sort of problem.

No, it's not part of the magnetic circuit. The magnestat works just
fine without the sleeve. The only problem is that without the sleeve,
when the tip becomes non-magnetic at the Curie temp it falls out of
the iron.

It is easy , on checking different tips rather than soldering, to not
replace the cover. Whether it is a magnetic effect or a positioning effect,
I don't kniow, but it can affect the switching action.

I just did the most fundamental test on the sleeve. It's not
ferromagnetic at all. Therefore I don't see how it can have any effect
on the magnetic field at all. What kind of effect do you think you've
seen.

Another tip ;-)
Fit a TO220 transistor insulator/ washer above and below each of the 3
screw-heads that hold the end plate to the plastic handle - stops excess
heat cracking the plastic at the screws.

Sounds reasonable, except that I've never seen heat damage to the
screw anchor points in the plastic. I've certainly seen damage due to
careless starting of the screws without regard to not starting in the
original thread.

I'm surprised that those washers tolerate that heat. I'd expect it to
be a lot hotter there than the application they were designed for.

I must be doing something right , my one is at least 22 years of daily use
with the same heater, switch, cord etc, I've only changed bits. I only
switch on
prior to use , not left on all the time. Gives a time to reflect - is the
kit powered up? , have I confused left and right on turning the board over?
etc.

Mine's 31 years old. Not used all that often, but left on once I'm on
a job. I like these because you CAN leave them on without much harm.

My original heater burned out last year. Other than fixing the base
station outlet wiring when it was new, that was the only repair it's
needed. I think I'm on my second tip. I retin them by stirring them
around in that brown greasy soldering flux.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Jim Adney]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100 "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"Jim Adney" <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The idea is
to get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking until
the
solder finally melts.

I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I've seen plenty of 'cold' / 'dry' joints arising from the use of 700F
tips. I
even told the manufacturing dept of a certain company to change to 800F
tips
for a certain process but they moaned that 'the tips wear out faster'. So
the
returns rate went up again Bloody idiots.

Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints, regardless
of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably a poor way to overcome poor
technique.

I would absolutely dispute that statement


Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into
the joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks like a
good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

??


We've been using Rohs solder for quite a few years now, and I don't
have a bit of trouble with it using a 700 F tip.



I would suggest Jim, that it does rather depend on what exactly you are
soldering. If you are making consistently good lead-free joints with a 700
deg Weller tip in all circumstances, then you are doing a lot better than
most of the major manufacturers.

Not sure what you're basing this on, since I doubt that any major
manufacturer is using irons in production. I would expect any real
production to be wave soldered for the last 20 years. I'm sure,
however, that wave soldering, with which I have no experience, has its
own set of problems.

Whilst you are correct in that a 700 deg tip melts lead-free solder, it does
not do so anything like as well as it does with leaded solder. Although
lead-free solder does not have as nice a melt / flow characteristic as
leaded in the first place, this undesirable quality is made much worse by
not having enough temperature on it

My own experience doesn't support your claims. I wish I could tell you
exactly what alloy we have at work, but it melts and flows perfectly
well. That could certainly be due to the flux, but I've noticed no
adverse effects from the flux. You also seem to be confusing the
concepts of heat and temperature, and the distinction between the two
is important.

One thing that DOES bother me about the lead free solders is that
everyone suggests that it is important to do repairs with the same
alloy as originally used. However there seem to be several lead free
alloys, and it does not seem that one can tell the difference between
them visually. So how does one know what to do when presented with a
lead free board to repair?

Use of a bigger tip to improve its own thermal inertia, is not an option
these days for general electronic service work. A finely pointed conical or
small screwdriver tip, is the order of the day. Component pin densities, and
component placement densities, are such that only a small tip and fine gauge
solder are appropriate in most cases, and it's just not a practical
proposition to keep changing tips, depending on what exactly is on your
bench at the time.

I agree that you can't be expected to use a large blunt tip on a fine
pitch high density board, but the link you provided below points out
other ways to accomplish the same thing.

When Weller came up with the 700 deg tip, it was with a traditional tin lead
solder alloy in mind. It is the tip that has always been supplied with these
irons from new. Lead-free melts at a temperature of 30 to 50 deg F higher
than leaded, so based on Weller's determination of 700 deg being appropriate
for leaded solder, you would have to extrapolate this thinking to come up
with a tip temperature of perhaps 750 deg, which is what I have both my
variable temperature controlled station, and vacuum desoldering stations set
to, for lead-free work.

This assumes that the 700 F was chosen because it was perfect for
tin/lead solder. There were probably other considerations, too, like
heat content and the typical thermal mass of electrical connections
when these irons first came out. Since many of those connections were
still point-to-point they would have needed much more heat than
present day junctions.

So I'm with Graham on this one (who is, like me, experienced in daily
soldering over many many years) in that for lots of lead-free work with a
Weller Magnastat iron, the best combination is a small tip, but with a lot
of heat behind it in the form of it being an 800 deg rated one. I don't
dispute that you can make good joints in lead-free with a 700 deg tip, as I
do it myself, but it does require very considerable care and experience to
'do it right'. There are now more appropriate soldering tools on the market
for lead-free work, than the good old TCP irons.

It's certainly clear that we're each entitled to our opinions.

There are some interesting notes here about why the 'standard' tips burn out
quickly, when used with lead-free

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

That's an interesting link that I haven't seen before and I appreciate
your pointing it out. I can't help mentioning that one thing it says
is that one should be very careful to avoid the temptation to increase
the soldering temperature when using lead free solder.

The first thing I actually noticed about this pdf was that it seemed
to be extremely poorly written. As Cooper Tools is a US company, I
thought it unusual that their English would be so poor. I'm even more
surprised to see that this comes from Cooper Tools GMBH (Germany.)

In spite of the poor translation, I suspect that they have much more
experience with the lead free problem than we do, and the meaning of
their writing is still, in most cases, clear.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Jim Adney]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:44:19 -0700 "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints,
regardless of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably
a poor way to overcome poor technique.

I would absolutely dispute that statement.

As would I. The temperature has to be at least high enough to bring the
solder to its "liquidus" state. (Which is one of the reasons eutectic solder
is preferable.)

I certainly agree that we have to work above the liquidus. You're also
quite right about the advantage of working with a eutectic.

700 F is still quite a bit above the liquidus.

Before you get in too deep arguing for higher temps. you might want to
check out the reference that Arfa so kindly provided.

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into the
joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks
like a good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

This is bilge.

It's clear that you disagree, but is it possible that you don't
understand the problem?

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Rich Webb]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 00:55:17 -0500, Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org>
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:20:47 -0400 Rich Webb
bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[snip...snip...]
There are some interesting notes here about why the 'standard' tips burn out
quickly, when used with lead-free

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

Interesting phrase there: "Clean the tip on a watery swamp." That one
required a quick mental recalibration...

Yes, that was quite confusing for a few moments.

On that issue, though, what are your thoughts on the use of brass
turnings as a tip cleaner vice a dunk in the swamp? I switched over to
the bowl of brass a while ago and now prefer it to the damp sponge.

I've never used one of those, but I've wondered how they would be. I'd
be concerned that they would wear thru the tip plating quickly and
lead to early death of the tips. Have you noticed any of that?

None at all. I'm love to see a comparative study, though; must be one
out there somewhere in the vast Intertoobz. I've been pleased with it.
No more hiss'n'sizzle.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Bob Shuman wrote:

Having worked in electronics assembly and manufacturing for many years, I
can confirm your assumption that all new production work gets wave soldered
and it has its own set of issues as evidenced by many cold solder joints
found in the field! That said, hand irons are still used for repairs...

Wave soldering is going away, and being replaced by reflow ovens, due
to increased SMD construction. The electronics manufacturing I worked
with had three reflow ovens, and no wave solder machine, and that was 10
years ago.

I have only ever seen one wave solder machine in actual use, and all
components were through hole, and it was over 15 years ago.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[Eeyore]

Jim Adney wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The idea is to get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking until the
solder finally melts.

I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I can assure you they don't unless you take half a minute to make each joint. I an
of course talking about fibreglass (FR$) or CEM material not paper crap.

I've seen plenty of 'cold' / 'dry' joints arising from the use of 700F tips. I
even told the manufacturing dept of a certain company to change to 800F tips
for a certain process but they moaned that 'the tips wear out faster'. So the
returns rate went up again Bloody idiots.

Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints, regardless
of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably a poor way to overcome poor
technique. Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into
the joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks like a
good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

We've been using Rohs solder for quite a few years now, and I don't
have a bit of trouble with it using a 700 F tip.

Well let me explain something to you.

The process in question involved soldering a number of TO-220 devices onto a
largish PCB. The TO-220 devices were already mounted on a substantial heatsink.

You could get what 'looked' like a good joint using a 700F tip because of capillary
action up the component lead but maybe 2% of those joints were 'dry' or cold'
because the component leg was itself being heatsunk by the big heatink. 800F tips
fixed it. Then the manufacturing smart alecs went back to 700F tips and as I said
the returns rate went up again.

I recall one example where I was asked to look at the return since it was design of
mine. Took the retaining clip off the TO-200 device and could pull it by hand out of
the PCB leaving perfect 3 rectangular holes where the leads had been in what looked
like perfect solder joints. Of course it worked to begin with because of mechanical
contact which then loosened up with thime.Case proven I think.

In short, you're plain wrong. I have VERY considerable experience in electronics
manufacturing, design and production I will add. Indeed I act as a consultant in the
field.

Graham