Weller WTCPT tip not hot enough

[George Orwell]

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip. It's 15 years old and hasn't seen much action. I
was using it a lot 3 years ago but for the past 2 years it's been sitting
cold in the garage.

The past couple times I've used it lately the tip just didn't seem to get
as hot as I remember. You know how it is with equipment you use for a long
time, you get to know the behavior and what's normal. When I put the
heated tip against the sponge, I barely get much of a sizzle. Solder barely
melts but does melt, just barely though.

I've gone through the troubleshooting guide Weller provides for this
station, all appears normal. I have 27.3VAC from the power unit. Heater
element reads 12.9 ohms. The "magnastat" opens and closes when the tip is
inserted and removed. Unfortunately the guide doesn't cover a warm tip,
only one that's stone cold or too hot. I don't know what else to check.

I can hear the tip cycling when I turn on the base. It just seems that the
heater doesn't stay on long enough like it used to. Do the tips somehow
lose their temperature calibration? Is it time for a new soldering
station? Any opinions on the WESD51?

Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <a7fbd640edfa2a3b5a6f6b743f27caf5@mixmaster.it>,
George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it> wrote:

I can hear the tip cycling when I turn on the base. It just seems that the
heater doesn't stay on long enough like it used to. Do the tips somehow
lose their temperature calibration? Is it time for a new soldering
station? Any opinions on the WESD51?

The temperature calibration is via the ferromagnetic slug at the back
end of each individual tip. I suppose it's possible that the alloy in
the slug can "drift" its transition temperature with time, although I
haven't noticed this myself.

Try removing your current tip and replacing it with another of the
appropriate tip shape and temperature range (they come in 600, 700,
and 800 degree Farenheit ratings) and see if this resolves the
problem. The tips themselves are not expensive... U.S. dealers seem
to have them for around $5 in most shapes.

I suppose it's possible that the heater in the handle is giving out,
or that oxidation on contacts somewhere is preventing adequate current
flow to re-heat the iron.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[George Orwell]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 17:34:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I use a PTA7 (370C) tip with the evil lead-free solder. It's not the
best, but it sorta works. A PTA8 (430C) tip works much better but
I've been burning up a tip every 3 months or so.

I just measured the tip temperature with a temperature probe that came with
an inexpensive meter I bought a few years ago. The package claims the
probe can measure up to 1200 degrees F. so I pressed the heated tip against
the probe tip sitting on top of a piece of wood. The tip measured 570
degrees F. max. The thing just seems to be cycling more than I would
expect.

I'll buy a new tip at Frys tomorrow and see if it works better. I just
know that something isn't normal with the station. There's nothing more
frustrating than trying to unsolder a component only to have the soldering
iron flake out at the worst moment. I solder and repair old tube
televisions and radios as well as Pentium 4 motherboards, mostly leaking
capacitors and cold solder joints in power supplies.

I'm using Kester Kwik-Draw Rosin Core 60% Tin/40% Lead, .053" diameter.

What does it mean to burn up a tip? If there's no heating element in these
tips how does it burn up?

Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it

 

[N_Cook]

George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
news:a7fbd640edfa2a3b5a6f6b743f27caf5@mixmaster.it...

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip. It's 15 years old and hasn't seen much action.
I
was using it a lot 3 years ago but for the past 2 years it's been sitting
cold in the garage.

The past couple times I've used it lately the tip just didn't seem to get
as hot as I remember. You know how it is with equipment you use for a
long
time, you get to know the behavior and what's normal. When I put the
heated tip against the sponge, I barely get much of a sizzle. Solder
barely
melts but does melt, just barely though.

I've gone through the troubleshooting guide Weller provides for this
station, all appears normal. I have 27.3VAC from the power unit. Heater
element reads 12.9 ohms. The "magnastat" opens and closes when the tip is
inserted and removed. Unfortunately the guide doesn't cover a warm tip,
only one that's stone cold or too hot. I don't know what else to check.

I can hear the tip cycling when I turn on the base. It just seems that
the
heater doesn't stay on long enough like it used to. Do the tips somehow
lose their temperature calibration? Is it time for a new soldering
station? Any opinions on the WESD51?

Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it

Remember to replace the shroud that screws on and retains the tip, it is
part of the magnetic "circuit" and if absent causes that sort of problem.

Also if you're careful , ie parallel jaw pliers, you can pull off the
magnastat of a worn tip and change the temp on another good but wrong temp
tip.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Does this unit have a temperature-calibration pot?

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:r3v1b450a0n1dap2t06ljnd9njv13n8g6h@4ax.com...

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:25:14 +0200 (CEST), George Orwell
nobody@mixmaster.it> wrote:

The thing just seems to be cycling more than I would
expect.

Ok, the thermostat is cycling. I've been assuming that it was NOT
cycling.

If the temperature is as low as you measure, then the primary
temperature determining element is the magnetic in the tip. If it's
off for some reason, you will get different temperatures. I've had
the base of the tip (the shiny part with the number "7" stamped into
it) fall off. I can replace it, but the temperature regulation is
rather erratic.

I'll buy a new tip at Frys tomorrow and see if it works better.

That will probably solve the problem. You might want to buy a larger
blade tip for dealing with physically larger components.

I'm using Kester Kwik-Draw Rosin Core 60% Tin/40% Lead, .053" diameter.

I prefer 63/37 but 60/40 is good enough. It should work just fine
with the 700F tip.

What does it mean to burn up a tip? If there's no heating element in these
tips how does it burn up?

The outer plating disappears. The part that needs to be cleaned and
tinned burns up (oxidizes) if left hot and sitting around for 10+
hours per day. Eventually, I can't tin it any more. The solder just
doesn't stick. I've tried various potions for re-tinning the tips
(Kester Ultrapure Tip Tinner), and Sal Ammonica (a flux), but have had
no success in reviving the tips. Only the 800F tips seem to have the
problem as the 700F tips last much longer. I would post a photo but I
can't find a dead tip. A clue is that the tip slowly turns black
instead of the usual shiny (tinned) silver color.

I used to find that my 700 deg tips lasted for months with my Weller PTC on
10-12 hours a day, but recently, I've found them to be burning out in just a
few weeks. At first, I thought it might be that the Magnastat was seized
shut, overheating the tip, but it is clicking on and off quite normally.
Unless Weller have done something to change the tip plating, I can't really
think of any other reason that this is occuring. This iron has been the
workhorse of my workshop for years, and like the OP on this thread, I am
extremely familiar with all aspects of its normal functioning.

About the only other possibility that I can think of is that I am doing more
lead-free work now than I was, and just maybe, the more aggressive fluxes
that are incorporated in this hateful stuff, are attacking the tip plating.
I'm actually still not doing anything like as much lead-free soldering as I
am leaded, but I guess that after making lead-free joints, solder is still
sitting on the tip perhaps for hours at a time. Another slight possibility
is that a mix of leaded and lead-free sitting on the tip, is causing
problems for the plating. The only reason that I say this, is that when I
was researching an article that I wrote on lead-free, I spoke with an expert
on the subject, and one of his papers stated quite clearly that leaded and
lead-free should not be mixed in the same joint, as it was likely to result
in long term compromise of the joint integrity. I'm not sufficiently versed
in metalurgy or chemistry to understand why this might be, but maybe a
factor ?

Arfa

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <8m63b4lfhlmu0u8mgfj5mtlb7g81202v7r@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

Then, I realized that the
one thing that I was doing in the shop, but not at the other
locations, was using the iron to melt plastic parts. I tended to use
it for plastic welding and drilling. I would clean and tin the tip
immediately afterwards, but apparently the damage was already done.
I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but something in the plastic
might be removing or trashing the plating on the tip.

My guess is that the breakdown of the plastic was releasing a
halogen-rich vapor, either from the plastic itself (e.g. PVC is
polyvinyl chloride and can release chlorine-rich combustion products)
or from a fire retardant (often chlorine- or bromine-based).

It would not surprise me if such halogen-rich compounds would be
chemically-active enough to corrode the iron plating on a soldering
tip, and eventually expose the underlying copper.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[George Orwell]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:37:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I'll buy a new tip at Frys tomorrow and see if it works better.

That will probably solve the problem. You might want to buy a larger
blade tip for dealing with physically larger components.

Just installed and tested a new PTA7 tip and it works fine. The
temperature as measured by my probe reads 735 degrees F. The tip was Made
in Mexico, July 2007, Lead Free, RoHS compliant. The tip I had been using
was 15 years old so maybe it was time for a new one. I also picked up a
PTA8 tip but that's still sealed in the bag.

Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48B1CF3E.835809B8@hotmail.com...

George Orwell wrote:

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip. It's 15 years old and hasn't seen much action.
I
was using it a lot 3 years ago but for the past 2 years it's been sitting
cold in the garage.

The past couple times I've used it lately the tip just didn't seem to get
as hot as I remember. You know how it is with equipment you use for a
long
time, you get to know the behavior and what's normal. When I put the
heated tip against the sponge, I barely get much of a sizzle. Solder
barely
melts but does melt, just barely though.

Your reply address suggests you are in Italy. But why are you using dizum
?

Are you unaware of the extra temperature required to melt the lead-free
solder
now mandated in the EU ?

Graha,

Just to be clear though, only mandated for items placed on the market after
June 2006, and which don't have a waiver. Items manufactured prior to that
using conventional leaded solder, can continue to be repaired / reworked /
modified with leaded solder and non RoHS compliant components. New items for
non commercial i.e. amateur use, can still be constructed in whatever
component and solder technology you like.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48B2D43B.C4B3CC3C@hotmail.com...

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
George Orwell wrote:

I have a Weller WTCPT soldering station with the stock TC201T handle
and
PTA7 700 degrees F. tip. It's 15 years old and hasn't seen much
action.
I was using it a lot 3 years ago but for the past 2 years it's been
sitting

cold in the garage.

The past couple times I've used it lately the tip just didn't seem to
get
as hot as I remember. You know how it is with equipment you use for a
long time, you get to know the behavior and what's normal. When I put
the
heated tip against the sponge, I barely get much of a sizzle. Solder
barely melts but does melt, just barely though.

Your reply address suggests you are in Italy. But why are you using
dizum
?

Are you unaware of the extra temperature required to melt the lead-free
solder now mandated in the EU ?


Just to be clear though, only mandated for items placed on the market
after
June 2006, and which don't have a waiver. Items manufactured prior to
that
using conventional leaded solder, can continue to be repaired / reworked
/
modified with leaded solder and non RoHS compliant components. New items
for
non commercial i.e. amateur use, can still be constructed in whatever
component and solder technology you like.

Absolutely, although we have no idea what he's soldering. I still prefer
800F
tips for quick neat soldering.

Graham

I still use 700s because of the problem of 800s burning out quicker when
left idling all day, but I might try 800s again, if only for the improvement
on the dreaded lead-free. I only said about the RoHS regs because there will
be a lot of people reading the thread, who perhaps wouldn't understand the
implications of the legislation. A while back, there was a lot of confusion
and misconceptions about what it meant to the service industry, not helped
by a couple of trade bulletins on the subject which were put out by at least
one major Jap manufacturer, and one soldering equipment manufacturer, and
which gave entirely the wrong impression. It was this which prompted me to
write the article.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Jim Adney" <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com...

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The idea is
to get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking until
the
solder finally melts.

I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I've seen plenty of 'cold' / 'dry' joints arising from the use of 700F
tips. I
even told the manufacturing dept of a certain company to change to 800F
tips
for a certain process but they moaned that 'the tips wear out faster'. So
the
returns rate went up again Bloody idiots.

Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints, regardless
of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably a poor way to overcome poor
technique.

I would absolutely dispute that statement

Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into
the joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks like a
good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

??

We've been using Rohs solder for quite a few years now, and I don't
have a bit of trouble with it using a 700 F tip.

I would suggest Jim, that it does rather depend on what exactly you are
soldering. If you are making consistently good lead-free joints with a 700
deg Weller tip in all circumstances, then you are doing a lot better than
most of the major manufacturers. Since they started using the stuff, the
service industry has seen a huge leap in bad joints - and not always in
'traditional' places where you might expect to find them.

Whilst you are correct in that a 700 deg tip melts lead-free solder, it does
not do so anything like as well as it does with leaded solder. Although
lead-free solder does not have as nice a melt / flow characteristic as
leaded in the first place, this undesirable quality is made much worse by
not having enough temperature on it - particularly when soldering a
component with a high thermal inertia, such as a connector or power
semiconductor. The fact that lead-free solder is much worse at wetting most
of the metals commonly used in electronic circuit construction, further
exacerbates the problem, and dictates that more aggressive fluxes are used
in the hateful stuff. Unless these are given the opportunity to do their
work, by allowing them to reach the temperatures they need to at the
soldering surface, then the likely result will be a bad joint - and one
that's invisible to the naked eye, and may not give trouble for some time,
at that. Many bad joints in lead-free that I come across in daily work, show
no signs of external distress at all (except that *all* lead-free joints
look distressed), and do not respond to tapping, freezing or heating. The
only conclusion has to be that whilst the solder has stuck ok to the copper
pad, it hasn't to the component leg inside the joint. Probably, a classic
example of the 'cold' joint that engineers your side of the pond, are fond
of calling them.

Use of a bigger tip to improve its own thermal inertia, is not an option
these days for general electronic service work. A finely pointed conical or
small screwdriver tip, is the order of the day. Component pin densities, and
component placement densities, are such that only a small tip and fine gauge
solder are appropriate in most cases, and it's just not a practical
proposition to keep changing tips, depending on what exactly is on your
bench at the time.

When Weller came up with the 700 deg tip, it was with a traditional tin lead
solder alloy in mind. It is the tip that has always been supplied with these
irons from new. Lead-free melts at a temperature of 30 to 50 deg F higher
than leaded, so based on Weller's determination of 700 deg being appropriate
for leaded solder, you would have to extrapolate this thinking to come up
with a tip temperature of perhaps 750 deg, which is what I have both my
variable temperature controlled station, and vacuum desoldering stations set
to, for lead-free work.

So I'm with Graham on this one (who is, like me, experienced in daily
soldering over many many years) in that for lots of lead-free work with a
Weller Magnastat iron, the best combination is a small tip, but with a lot
of heat behind it in the form of it being an 800 deg rated one. I don't
dispute that you can make good joints in lead-free with a 700 deg tip, as I
do it myself, but it does require very considerable care and experience to
'do it right'. There are now more appropriate soldering tools on the market
for lead-free work, than the good old TCP irons.

There are some interesting notes here about why the 'standard' tips burn out
quickly, when used with lead-free

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/europe/sales_literature/documents/Leadfree_Info_GB.pdf

Arfa

 

[N Cook]

Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:4cm6b45dkh8k9uff91kln7dkpejq5f6leu@4ax.com...

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:45:52 +0100 "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

Remember to replace the shroud that screws on and retains the tip, it is
part of the magnetic "circuit" and if absent causes that sort of problem.

No, it's not part of the magnetic circuit. The magnestat works just
fine without the sleeve. The only problem is that without the sleeve,
when the tip becomes non-magnetic at the Curie temp it falls out of
the iron.

Also if you're careful , ie parallel jaw pliers, you can pull off the
magnastat of a worn tip and change the temp on another good but wrong
temp
tip.

Now THAT's a useful tip! Thanks.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

It is easy , on checking different tips rather than soldering, to not
replace the cover. Whether it is a magnetic effect or a positioning effect,
I don't kniow, but it can affect the switching action.

Another tip ;-)
Fit a TO220 transistor insulator/ washer above and below each of the 3
screw-heads that hold the end plate to the plastic handle - stops excess
heat cracking the plastic at the screws.

I must be doing something right , my one is at least 22 years of daily use
with the same heater, switch, cord etc, I've only changed bits. I only
switch on
prior to use , not left on all the time. Gives a time to reflect - is the
kit powered up? , have I confused left and right on turning the board over?
etc.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

 

[Smitty Two]

In article <tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com>,
Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The idea is to
get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking until the
solder finally melts.

I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I'm with Graham on this one. I threw all the Wellers in the dumpster a
few years back (tired of fixing them all the time) but when we did use
them we used nothing but 800 degree tips.

Now we've got another brand of iron with dial adjustable temperature and
keep them set at 800, also. For the hobbyist or even repair tech,
waiting two or three seconds for a small joint to heat up might be
acceptable, but for production work it isn't.

And as far as board damage, higher temps are much *less* likely to
damage the board, and the components, because dwell time is drastically
reduced.

Finally as to reduced tip life at higher temps, that cost is offset by
increased efficiency 1000 times over.

I've seen plenty of 'cold' / 'dry' joints arising from the use of 700F tips.
I
even told the manufacturing dept of a certain company to change to 800F tips
for a certain process but they moaned that 'the tips wear out faster'. So
the
returns rate went up again Bloody idiots.

Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints, regardless
of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably a poor way to overcome poor
technique. Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into
the joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks like a
good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

We've been using Rohs solder for quite a few years now, and I don't
have a bit of trouble with it using a 700 F tip.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Good soldering technique will not give cold solder joints,
regardless of the tip temp. High tip temp is probably
a poor way to overcome poor technique.

I would absolutely dispute that statement.

As would I. The temperature has to be at least high enough to bring the
solder to its "liquidus" state. (Which is one of the reasons eutectic solder
is preferable.)

Using a higher temp iron will certainly pump more heat into the
joint in a given time, but it also results in more temp difference
across the joint, so you may be more likely to get what looks
like a good joint on the heated side, but with little penetration.

This is bilge.

 

[Jim Yanik]

Smitty Two <prestwhich@earthlink.net> wrote in
newsrestwhich-DB53A2.04293126082008@news.west.cox.net:

In article <tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com>,
Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

I prefer 800 degrees. Always have done. Esp with small tips. The
idea is to get
the soldering done as fast as quickly, not leave the joint cooking
until the solder finally melts.

I have to disagree. 700 F is already way above the melting point of
the solder. If you need more heat you might want to use a larger tip,
with greater thermal mass, but higher temps are much more likely to
damage the board.

I'm with Graham on this one. I threw all the Wellers in the dumpster a
few years back (tired of fixing them all the time) but when we did use
them we used nothing but 800 degree tips.

Now we've got another brand of iron with dial adjustable temperature
and keep them set at 800, also. For the hobbyist or even repair tech,
waiting two or three seconds for a small joint to heat up might be
acceptable, but for production work it isn't.

And as far as board damage, higher temps are much *less* likely to
damage the board, and the components, because dwell time is
drastically reduced.

Finally as to reduced tip life at higher temps, that cost is offset by
increased efficiency 1000 times over.

my own experience is that dwell time is more critical in regards to PCB
damage.I used 800 degF tips,too.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48B45400.5AB20289@hotmail.com...

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote

Are you unaware of the extra temperature required to melt the
lead-free
solder now mandated in the EU ?

Just to be clear though, only mandated for items placed on the market
after June 2006, and which don't have a waiver. Items manufactured
prior to

that using conventional leaded solder, can continue to be repaired /
reworked
/ modified with leaded solder and non RoHS compliant components. New
items
for non commercial i.e. amateur use, can still be constructed in
whatever
component and solder technology you like.

Absolutely, although we have no idea what he's soldering. I still
prefer
800F tips for quick neat soldering.

I still use 700s because of the problem of 800s burning out quicker when
left idling all day,

I don't let that happen and re-tin and wipe the tip regularly. I probably
'waste' as much solder as I use !

Plus Farnell IIRC sells some aggressive (iron) oxide remover that can help
restore a 'damaged' tip. It comes in a little circular tin.

I have some, and jolly good it is too, although I wonder just how much
that's eating away at the tip, as well ...


Arfa

 

[Jim Yanik]

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:Nx1tk.379066$7f3.5549@newsfe23.ams2:

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48B45400.5AB20289@hotmail.com...


Arfa Daily wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote

Are you unaware of the extra temperature required to melt the
lead-free
solder now mandated in the EU ?

Just to be clear though, only mandated for items placed on the
market after June 2006, and which don't have a waiver. Items
manufactured prior to

that using conventional leaded solder, can continue to be
repaired /
reworked
/ modified with leaded solder and non RoHS compliant components.
New items
for non commercial i.e. amateur use, can still be constructed in
whatever
component and solder technology you like.

Absolutely, although we have no idea what he's soldering. I still
prefer
800F tips for quick neat soldering.

I still use 700s because of the problem of 800s burning out quicker
when left idling all day,

I don't let that happen and re-tin and wipe the tip regularly. I
probably 'waste' as much solder as I use !

Plus Farnell IIRC sells some aggressive (iron) oxide remover that can
help restore a 'damaged' tip. It comes in a little circular tin.


I have some, and jolly good it is too, although I wonder just how much
that's eating away at the tip, as well ...


Arfa

IIRC,that has some powdered solder mixed in with the flux.
It cleans AND tins.

(of course,AFAIK,it's not lead-free....)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[N Cook]

Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:hho9b4tj2pqgath5n2ib7h8lv1suqfbm50@4ax.com...

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100 "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:


"Jim Adney" <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Don't know about different types of lead-free solder.
But distinguishing lead free I've found is
1/ conical rather than domed solder joints
2/ putting a stainless steel sewing needle in some of the solder after
melting and extracting needle while still molten, it is much more difficult
to remove the cold solder from the needle than doing the same with leaded
solder.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

 

[Arfa Daily]

"N Cook" <diverse8@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
news:g92u87$1bf$1@inews.gazeta.pl...

Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:hho9b4tj2pqgath5n2ib7h8lv1suqfbm50@4ax.com...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100 "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:


"Jim Adney" <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



Don't know about different types of lead-free solder.
But distinguishing lead free I've found is
1/ conical rather than domed solder joints
2/ putting a stainless steel sewing needle in some of the solder after
melting and extracting needle while still molten, it is much more
difficult
to remove the cold solder from the needle than doing the same with leaded
solder.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

And many boards now actually state that they are lead free or "PbF" on the
silk screening. As far as I have been able to tell, it's not so much about
mixing different types of lead-free alloys, which may or may not contain
small traces of other metals such as silver, but more a case of not mixing
lead-free with leaded solder.

To Jim. All of my experience with this stuff is from a service rather than
production point of view. You are of course right that manufacturers use
wave or reflow soldering, and have done for many years. The point I was
making about lead-free joints and Weller TCPs at 700 deg, versus
manufacturers' joints, was perhaps not grammatically well-made. What I was
basically saying was that the manufacturers, with all of their expertise and
expensive production soldering equipment, still can't get to grips with the
stuff themselves, and are still producing equipment littered with bad joints
from day one. So, if you are making consistently good 'production' joints in
lead free, using 700 degree hand soldering equipment designed way way before
any eco-prat had ever come up with the concept of taking the lead out of
solder, then you (your company) are doing, on average, better than the big
boys.

As far as heat and temperature are concerned, I take your point that they
are not the same thing, and I don't think that I am confusing the two. They
are however, inextricably linked to one another by external influences.
Energy, in the form of heat, is what has to be put into a body in order to
raise its temperature. All solder has to have its temperature raised to the
point where its liquid state becomes suitable for making a soldered joint,
and then maintained at that temperature until the joint is completed. The
temperature at which this condition occurs for lead-free solder, is higher
than that of leaded solder. If you are just making small joints, then this
is of no consequence, and a 700 degree tip is fine for the job. With a
leaded joint - even a large one that causes the tip temperature to drop by a
few degrees - that drop is again of little consequence, as there is plenty
of temperature 'overhead' available from a 700 deg tip. However, with
lead-free, 50 degrees of that overhead, have already gone, so if a joint is
any bigger than 'small', the additional temperature drop at the tip, caused
by the joint leaching heat from it, results in a less than adequate tip
temperature being maintained, to correctly complete the joint. The result is
a bad or 'cold' joint. A 700 degree tip simply cannot maintain enough
heatflow into the solder, to keep it at a sufficient temperature to do a
'good job' on anything other than a small joint, and this is particularly
the case where a 'typical' repair workshop tip of small dimensions is used.

I have a repair service for a particular board which uses lead-free, and I
see many of them where the shop that's sending it back to me, have attempted
some rework or component replacement, and it's quite obvious that they have
been trying to use their normal leaded soldering equipment to do the job,
with the inevitable consequences.

I can accept what Cooper say about not being tempted to increase the tip
temperature, but I think that they are probably talking more about not going
up far enough to get the same 'feel' with lead-free, as with leaded. Most
commentators on the subject, including soldering equipment manufacturers,
agree that a higher nominal tip temperature is required to work reliably
with lead-free.

One of the main reasons that manufacturers are having so much trouble with
the stuff, is that they have to run their soldering processes at a higher
temperature. This then brings them close to the maximums that some of the
components can tolerate for any length of time, so they have to compromise
and run the process at a slightly reduced temperature. That is fine until
you have to solder a connector or power semiconductor - particularly one
that is mounted on a heatsink, and that is where many lead-free bad joints
are occuring. Trust me, if manufacturers didn't *have* to run their
processes at a higher temperature, with all of the implications of that,
including a higher energy useage, to cope with lead-free, then they wouldn't
....

Arfa

 

[N Cook]

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:n%9tk.26$oT7.2@newsfe10.ams2...

"N Cook" <diverse8@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
news:g92u87$1bf$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
Jim Adney <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:hho9b4tj2pqgath5n2ib7h8lv1suqfbm50@4ax.com...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:56:32 +0100 "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:


"Jim Adney" <jadney@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:tgm6b4prg8tpsln65bf0teefbj4urs21o8@4ax.com...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:50:04 +0100 Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



Don't know about different types of lead-free solder.
But distinguishing lead free I've found is
1/ conical rather than domed solder joints
2/ putting a stainless steel sewing needle in some of the solder after
melting and extracting needle while still molten, it is much more
difficult
to remove the cold solder from the needle than doing the same with
leaded
solder.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/



And many boards now actually state that they are lead free or "PbF" on the
silk screening. As far as I have been able to tell, it's not so much about
mixing different types of lead-free alloys, which may or may not contain
small traces of other metals such as silver, but more a case of not mixing
lead-free with leaded solder.

To Jim. All of my experience with this stuff is from a service rather than
production point of view. You are of course right that manufacturers use
wave or reflow soldering, and have done for many years. The point I was
making about lead-free joints and Weller TCPs at 700 deg, versus
manufacturers' joints, was perhaps not grammatically well-made. What I was
basically saying was that the manufacturers, with all of their expertise
and
expensive production soldering equipment, still can't get to grips with
the
stuff themselves, and are still producing equipment littered with bad
joints
from day one. So, if you are making consistently good 'production' joints
in
lead free, using 700 degree hand soldering equipment designed way way
before
any eco-prat had ever come up with the concept of taking the lead out of
solder, then you (your company) are doing, on average, better than the big
boys.

As far as heat and temperature are concerned, I take your point that they
are not the same thing, and I don't think that I am confusing the two.
They
are however, inextricably linked to one another by external influences.
Energy, in the form of heat, is what has to be put into a body in order to
raise its temperature. All solder has to have its temperature raised to
the
point where its liquid state becomes suitable for making a soldered joint,
and then maintained at that temperature until the joint is completed. The
temperature at which this condition occurs for lead-free solder, is higher
than that of leaded solder. If you are just making small joints, then this
is of no consequence, and a 700 degree tip is fine for the job. With a
leaded joint - even a large one that causes the tip temperature to drop by
a
few degrees - that drop is again of little consequence, as there is plenty
of temperature 'overhead' available from a 700 deg tip. However, with
lead-free, 50 degrees of that overhead, have already gone, so if a joint
is
any bigger than 'small', the additional temperature drop at the tip,
caused
by the joint leaching heat from it, results in a less than adequate tip
temperature being maintained, to correctly complete the joint. The result
is
a bad or 'cold' joint. A 700 degree tip simply cannot maintain enough
heatflow into the solder, to keep it at a sufficient temperature to do a
'good job' on anything other than a small joint, and this is particularly
the case where a 'typical' repair workshop tip of small dimensions is
used.

I have a repair service for a particular board which uses lead-free, and I
see many of them where the shop that's sending it back to me, have
attempted
some rework or component replacement, and it's quite obvious that they
have
been trying to use their normal leaded soldering equipment to do the job,
with the inevitable consequences.

I can accept what Cooper say about not being tempted to increase the tip
temperature, but I think that they are probably talking more about not
going
up far enough to get the same 'feel' with lead-free, as with leaded. Most
commentators on the subject, including soldering equipment manufacturers,
agree that a higher nominal tip temperature is required to work reliably
with lead-free.

One of the main reasons that manufacturers are having so much trouble with
the stuff, is that they have to run their soldering processes at a higher
temperature. This then brings them close to the maximums that some of the
components can tolerate for any length of time, so they have to compromise
and run the process at a slightly reduced temperature. That is fine until
you have to solder a connector or power semiconductor - particularly one
that is mounted on a heatsink, and that is where many lead-free bad joints
are occuring. Trust me, if manufacturers didn't *have* to run their
processes at a higher temperature, with all of the implications of that,
including a higher energy useage, to cope with lead-free, then they
wouldn't
...

Arfa

Is all your info available collated together on a website somewhere. ?

Any comments on the following
If replacing new (ROHS) components to old boards (leaded solder) then scrape
off most of the hard mirror-like finnish on the leads before tining with and
then soldering with Pb-Sn solder

21Century RoHS boards , repair of but not production (heavy solder usage),
use silver solder, or is that likely to lead to as much a problem as mixing
RoHs and PbSn solder.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/