Was Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man at the Same Time?

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Was Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man at the Same Time?
According to Orthodox Christian belief, Jesus was perfect man and
perfect God at the same time. This belief is necessary for salvation
according to the Athanasian creed held dear by most Christians.
Modern Christian scholars reject this idea not because it is difficult
to understand but because it cannot be meaningfully expressed. The
doctrine cannot be stated in any way that is free from
contradictions. It is impossible for Jesus to have been perfect man
and perfect God at the same time, for this would mean that he was
finite and infinite at the same time, that he was fallible and
infallible at the same time. This cannot be.

What the creed denies is also quite significant. The creed was
formulated in response to the claims of various early Christian
groups, and so includes clauses that deny the beliefs of those
groups. In response to the Arians who believed that Jesus was not
God, the Council of Nicea (325 A.D.) decreed that he was fully God.
In response to the Apollinarians who believed Jesus was God but not
fully human, the council of Constantinople (381 A.D.) decreed that
Jesus was fully human.

Then there was Nestorianism: the belief that started when Nestorius
denied that Mary could be called "Mother of God." To him, Mary was
mother of the human Jesus only. This implied that there were two
Christs: one divine, the other human. Against Nestorius, the council
of Ephesus (431 A.D.) decreed that the two natures of Jesus cannot be
separated. Everything Jesus does is done by both the humanity and
divinity in him. Likewise, everything that happened to him happened
to both the man and God that he is. Therefore Mary gave birth to
both, both died on the cross, etc.

At yet another council, the council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.) the creed
received some finishing touches and the Athanasian creed was declared
official church teaching. Most Christians are not familiar with the
detailed implications of the creed and in their own minds conceive of
Jesus in the very ways the creed was formulated to deny. This
tendency results from the fact that the creed's definition of Jesus is
impossible for any human mind to comprehend. One can only repeat the
words, but cannot grasp the meaning of the required belief. Therefore
most just repeat the creed with their lips but in their minds turn to
views of Jesus that are less taxing on the intellect, even though
those views were declared by the Church to be heretical.

The orthodox doctrine is logically impossible. As Huston Smith,
scholar of comparative religion, points out, it would not have been
logically impossible if the creed said that Jesus was somewhat divine
and somewhat human. But this is expressly what the creed denies. For
orthodox Christians, Jesus cannot possess only some human qualities;
he must possess all. He must be fully human. At the same time, he
cannot possess only some divine qualities; he must have all. He must
be fully divine. This is impossible because to be fully divine means
one has to be free of human limitations. If he has only one human
limitation then he is not God. But according to creed he has every
human limitation. How, then, can he be God? Huston Smith calls this
a blatant contradiction. In his book The World's Religions, he
writes:

We may begin with the doctrine of the Incarnation, which took several
centuries to fix into place. Holding as it does that in Christ God
assumed a human body, it affirms that Christ was God-Man;
simultaneously both fully God and fully man. To say that such a
contention is paradoxical seems a charitable way to put the matter --
it looks more like a blatant contradiction. If the doctrine held that
Christ was half human and half divine, or that he was divine in
certain respects, while being human in others, our minds would not
balk. (The World's Religions, p. 340).

If it was said that Jesus was partly human and partly divine that
would not be logically impossible but only scripturally impossible.
The Bible nowhere teaches that Jesus was divine in any way.
Furthermore, if he was only partly divine then he was not the One True
God of the Old and New Testaments. God is All-Powerful, not somewhat
all-powerful; God is All-Knowing, not somewhat all-knowing.

C. Randolph Ross is a Christian. In his book Common Sense
Christianity he debunks the orthodox view "not because it is difficult
to understand," he says, but because "it cannot meaningfully be
said." He rejects it because "it is impossible," he says. (Common
Sense Christianity, p. 79). His arguments are so persuasive that I
can do little better than just repeat them. To be human means to be
limited, lacking in knowledge, prone to mistakes, imperfect. To be
God means just the opposite: unlimited, complete in knowledge,
infallible, perfect. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say of
one person that he was both. Either he was one or the other.



THIS IS NO PARADOX
To those who say this is a paradox, Ross answers nicely. It is
important to understand first of all what is a paradox. A paradox is
something that seems impossible but can be demonstrated to be true.
On the other hand, the creedal statement may seem true to some people
but logic demonstrates it to be false. Ross argues with an example
that makes the point succinct:

"Ah!" some will say. "That's the paradox!" No, it isn't a paradox.
This is a very important point, so please take special note: a
paradox is something which seems impossible but which is demonstrably
true. Thus, it was a paradox when some scientist carefully analyzed
bumblebees and concluded that according to the laws of physics they
couldn't fly. There was contradiction and apparent impossibility, but
bumblebees kept on flying.
However, for an individual to be both perfect and imperfect is the
reverse of this: it may seem true to some, but it is demonstrably
impossible. And not just impossible according to our understanding of
the laws of nature, which can be wrong (as with the bumblebee), but
impossible according to the rules of logic upon which all our
reasoning is based. (p. 82)

Let me elaborate this last point. Human observation and analysis can
turn out to be incorrect. This was the case with the scientist who
figured that according to the laws of Physics bumblebees could not
fly. The flaw in his procedure is that our understanding of the laws
of nature is always improving. New knowledge often declare old to be
false. But with the rules of logic things are different. What is
true by definition will always remain true unless we start redefining
things. For example, 2+2=4. This equation will always remain true.
The only way this can ever become false is if we decide to change the
definitions of the component parts. Now, by definition, a thing
cannot be the opposite of itself. A thing cannot be perfect and
imperfect at the same time. The presence of one of these qualities
implies the absence of the other. Jesus was either one or the other.
He cannot logically be both. Ross is very eloquent on this:

To say someone is perfect and imperfect is like saying that you saw a
square circle. This is an impossibility. Are you saying the circle
was not round, in which case it was not a circle? Or are you saying
the square was circular? This is not a paradox; this is meaningless
nonsense, however imaginative it might be. (p. 82)

To develop this point further, I tried to relate it to what can and
cannot be said about Jesus according to the creed. In the diagram we
see a figure that is somewhat round and somewhat square. It is
unorthodox to say that Jesus was somewhat man and somewhat God. Even
the models that combine a circle and a square one inside the other do
not work, for in each case you have two objects clearly separable.
Orthodoxy does not allow this for the two natures of Jesus. To
satisfy the requirements of orthodoxy we must find an object which is
at once a circle and a square. By definition, such an object cannot
exist (see accompanying diagram, next page).

The difficulty is not with believing what the creed says. The problem
is that the creed in effect says nothing. When we are told two
opposites what then are we to believe? Ross puts it nicely:

To say that someone is perfect and imperfect at the same time is to
say that "X" and "not-X" can both be true. This is either to abandon
the meaning of these words or else to abandon logic, and in either
case this means we are speaking nonsense that can have no meaning for
us. (p. 82)

The orthodox say that Jesus was imperfect with regards to his human
nature but perfect with regards to his divine nature. The problem
with this position is that it implies the existence of two persons
occupying the one body of Jesus: one perfect, the other imperfect.
You need for this two minds, two wills, two characters. But the creed
does not allow this necessary conclusion and insists that Jesus was
not two persons but one only. Now, this one person had to be either
perfect or not, infallible or not, unlimited in knowledge or not. You
cannot say of the same person that he was both.

When Jesus faced death on the cross according to Christian belief,
either he faced it with the human belief that he would be raised on
the third day, or he faced death with the infallible knowledge that he
would be so raised. If he believed with human faith in God's power to
raise him then he himself was not God. If, on the other hand, he
faced death with infallible divine knowledge that he would be
resurrected, then he was not taking any real risk in letting himself
die. If the divine nature in him knew he would be raised, but he did
not know this, then it was not his divine nature. If the divine
nature knew something he did not, we are back to two persons.

This could get more difficult to explain as we look at the deeds
reported of Jesus in the gospels and ask whether the divine or human
nature or both performed those deeds. Let us consider the episode
where Jesus curses the fig tree. First, the account as it appears in
Mark:

Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went
to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing
but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. The he said to
the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." (Mark 11:12-14,
NIV)

As a result, the tree withered from the roots (v. 20). Now, a few
things are clear from this episode.

Jesus did not know the tree had no fruit until he went up to the tree
and found nothing but leaves.
When Jesus saw leaves from a distance he hoped to find fruit on the
tree.
It was not fig season, and this is why the tree had no figs. This
comment from Mark clearly, implies that it was a perfectly good tree.
If the tree was barren, Mark's comment about the season would have
been pointless and misleading.
Jesus did not know it was not fig season. If he had known this, he
would not have expected the tree to have fruit, and he would not have
cursed the tree for having no fruit.
The whole thing began when Jesus felt hungry.
Now it is easy to understand that the human Jesus felt hunger, and
that the human Jesus did not know it was not fig season and so
mistakenly expected the tree to have fruit. A divine Jesus would have
known all these, and would not have to go to the tree to discover it
had no fruit; he would not have been hungry in the first place.

Now the cursing of the tree is a little more difficult for those who
assert the divinity of Jesus. His miracles, they say, are performed
by his divine nature. Okay, so the divine Jesus cursed the tree. But
why? Why ruin a tree which in Mark's view was a perfectly good tree?
Come fig season this tree would have had fruit and others could have
eaten from it. The reason was that the human Jesus made a mistake.
But why did the divine Jesus act upon the mistake of the human Jesus?
Does the human mind in Jesus guide the divine nature in him?
Actually, there is no warrant for all this speculation, for scripture
nowhere says that Jesus has two natures. Those who want to believe
contrary to scripture that Jesus was fully human yet fully divine can
go on speculating.

Some will say that everything is possible with God, and that we are
using words here with their human meanings. This is true. Everything
is possible with God. We believe that. If you tell me God did such
and such and He is such and such I cannot say it is impossible. But
what if you say "God did and did not," or "He is and is not?" Your
statements are meaningless. When you say that Jesus is perfect God
and perfect man at the same time you are saying two opposite things.
Therefore, I reply, "Impossible!"

So what we need here is to hear it said with meaning. If you think
that the words have a different or deeper meaning, when applied to God
I cannot help agreeing with you. But I would like to know with what
meaning you are using those words. Ross explains:

If you wish to redefine some of these words, that's fine, as long as
you can tell us the new meanings that you are using. The usual
practice, however, seems to be to say that while one cannot say
precisely what these new meanings are, one is nevertheless sure that
they fit together in a way that makes sense. This, of course, is
simply an effort to duck the requirements of logic. But if you do not
know the meanings of the words which you are applying to Jesus, then
you are simply saying "Jesus is X" and "Jesus is Y," X and Y being
unknowns. This, of course, is to say nothing at all. (p. 83)

As a result of this confusion, many Christians revert to the idea that
Jesus had two natures that are separable. Sometimes he acts as a
human and sometimes he acts as God. This, of course, is not supported
by scripture, and it would have been wiser to move to the scriptural
position that Jesus was a man and a servant of God (See Matthew 12:18,
Acts 3:13, Acts 4:27 in the Holy Bible, Revised Standard Version).

William Ellery Channing is one of many Christians who have moved to
that scriptural position. He wrote thus:

Where do you meet, in the New Testament, the phraseology which
abounds in Trinitarian books and which necessarily grows from the
doctrine of two natures in Jesus? Where does this divine teacher say,
"this I speak as God, and this as man; this is true only of my human
mind, this only of my divine?" Where do we find in the Epistles a
trace of this strange phraseology? Nowhere. It was not needed in
that day. It was demanded by the errors of a later age.
We believe, then that Christ is one mind, one being, and, I add, a
being distinct from the one God. That Christ is not the one God, not
the same being with the father, is a necessary inference from our
former head, in which we saw that the doctrine of three persons in God
is a fiction . . . . Jesus, in his preaching, continually spoke of
God. The word was always in his mouth. We ask, does he by this word
ever mean himself? We say, never. On the contrary, he most plainly
distinguishes between God and himself, and so do his disciples.
(William Ellery Channing, Unitarian Christianity and Other Essays,
edited by Irving H. Bartlett (U.S.: Liberal Arts Press, 1957) pp.
17-18)

Channing contends that since the doctrine of the two natures is "so
strange, so difficult, so remote from all the previous conceptions of
men," it would have been taught with utmost clarity in the Bible had
it been a necessary belief for Christians. But no such teaching can
be found in the Bible. Some Christians say, however, that some
passages ascribe divine qualities to Jesus and others human
qualities. To reconcile all these necessitates the said doctrine.
Channing replies that those passages that seem to ascribe divine
qualities to Jesus can be easily explained without resorting to the
doctrine. He regards with disdain what he understands to be the
solution proposed by other Christians:

In other words, for the purpose of reconciling certain difficult
passages, which a just criticism can in a great degree, if not wholly,
explain, we must invent a hypothesis vastly more difficult, and
involving gross absurdity. We are to find our way out of a labyrinth
by a clue which conducts us into mazes infinitely more inextricable.
(p. 17)

Many, like Channing, after thorough study have concluded that Jesus
was simply a man chosen by God to deliver His message. The mighty
works he did were by the permission and aid of God. Jesus of his own
could do nothing. The book The Myth of God Incarnate, edited by John
Hick, is a collection of essays written by practicing Christian
theologians and clergymen. Anyone who still has a doubt about this
matter should read that book.

Finally, we must turn to God for His guidance. He sent His final
book, the Qur'an to rescue mankind from the theological traps of
humanly invented dogmas. The Qur'an addresses Christians and Jews:

O people of the Scripture! Now hath Our Messenger come unto you,
expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide of the
Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you light from
Allah and a plain Scripture, whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His
good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness
into light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path.
(Qur'an 5:14-15)

And again:

Say: O People of the Scripture! Stress not in your religion other
than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of the folk who erred
of old and led many astray, and erred from the plain road. (Qur'an
5:77)

Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.

see this site for more information www.sultan.org
 
"small giant" <mutawafayez@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38ad5206-1380-4936-9688-5bd612d9f72f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.
Is that Al Alah, the moon goddess worshipped at Medina in Mohomad's day whom
you refer to above? That was HER name before Mohomad, the self proclaimed
prophet, came along. Did you know that? If so, how do you, according to
your previous excellent logic reconcile this?
And if you do not, then explain to us all what the crescent moon on top of
Islam's spires are all about. The stars around the crescent represent her
daughters. Did you know that too?
Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy know,
and beleive.
Vince
 
small giant wrote:
Was Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man at the Same Time?
I think that Episode Two "Mr. Deity and the Really Big
Favor" answers that question pretty well... ;-)

http://mrdeity.com

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
 
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478e066c$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"small giant" <mutawafayez@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38ad5206-1380-4936-9688-5bd612d9f72f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.


Is that Al Alah, the moon goddess worshipped at Medina in Mohomad's day
whom
you refer to above? That was HER name before Mohomad, the self proclaimed
prophet, came along. Did you know that? If so, how do you, according to
your previous excellent logic reconcile this?
And if you do not, then explain to us all what the crescent moon on top of
Islam's spires are all about. The stars around the crescent represent her
daughters. Did you know that too?
Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy know,
and beleive.
Vince
Hi Vince,

As you are doing - so have I been known to do - reply to this crap. These
bozos get my blood pressure up just by mere mention of Allah and Islam. As
someone else recently pointed out either in this or one other news group -
and most likely true, these ass holes more than likely post this garbage
then run - never to look back at replies.

My point? Don't expect a reply from them.

Have a good day.
 
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478e066c$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"small giant" <mutawafayez@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38ad5206-1380-4936-9688-5bd612d9f72f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.


Is that Al Alah, the moon goddess worshipped at Medina in Mohomad's day
whom
you refer to above? That was HER name before Mohomad, the self proclaimed
prophet, came along. Did you know that? If so, how do you, according to
your previous excellent logic reconcile this?
And if you do not, then explain to us all what the crescent moon on top of
Islam's spires are all about. The stars around the crescent represent her
daughters. Did you know that too?
Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy know,
and beleive.
Vince
Oh, how cool. Thank you Vince. Where did you learn of these connections?
I myself am fascinated by the evolution of religion(s). Would be most
interested to find the source of your knowledge.

Thanks for a great hoot!

Dave
 
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478e066c$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"small giant" <mutawafayez@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38ad5206-1380-4936-9688-5bd612d9f72f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.


Is that Al Alah, the moon goddess worshipped at Medina in Mohomad's day
whom
you refer to above?
No the Allah hat was worshipped after that

That was HER name
Al Alah is different from Allah

Mohomad, the self proclaimed
prophet, came along.
All prophets were self proclaimed

Did you know that? If so, how do you, according to
your previous excellent logic reconcile this?
And if you do not, then explain to us all what the crescent moon on top of
Islam's spires are all about. The stars around the crescent represent her
daughters. Did you know that too?
Did you know that they don't?

Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy know,
and beleive.
Vince
You need to have a closer look
req
 
"reqluq" <scredcropshonnospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ot8cm4l5b5t59@corp.supernews.com...
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478e066c$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"small giant" <mutawafayez@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:38ad5206-1380-4936-9688-5bd612d9f72f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.


Is that Al Alah, the moon goddess worshipped at Medina in Mohomad's day
whom
you refer to above?

No the Allah hat was worshipped after that
Interesting. After that? So, who then was Al Alah? And when did the
worship of her and her daughters terminate?
That was HER name

Al Alah is different from Allah
Yes, of course. He isn't supposed to be a SHE.

Mohomad, the self proclaimed
prophet, came along.

All prophets were self proclaimed
That is true.

Did you know that? If so, how do you, according to
your previous excellent logic reconcile this?
And if you do not, then explain to us all what the crescent moon on top
of
Islam's spires are all about. The stars around the crescent represent
her
daughters. Did you know that too?

Did you know that they don't?
No I most certainly don't know that. In fact I KNOW very well indeed that
Al Alah, and her daughters WERE worshipped at Medina at the time of Mohomad.
But, not thereafter. The crescent moon and stars on the spires? Please
enlighten us.

Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy
know,
and beleive.
Vince

You need to have a closer look
I assure you, you are either ignorant of this, or you are lying, there is no
other position where "facts" are involved.
Please explain to us who Al Alah is then? And, do you know how she was
represented? Crescent moon, stars!

While I'm at it, I'll first appologise to the group for getting involved in
this off topic spam in the first place.

Now, let me first state that I am not jewish, nor of jewish origin, nor do I
practice judaism of any kind.

For the sake of those who do not know, "the book" refers specificaly to the
first 5 books of the hebrew scripture, and occasianly to the entire work.

However, I do know absolutely, that the God of the judaic testament, "the
book" the old testament, hebrew testament or whatever you want to call it,
has a name. And although there is some controversy as to what that name is
exactly today, it never, ever, was in anyway shape or form "Allah" that IS
certain. Most hebrew reading people ("the book" was written in hebrew)
believe that the consonants YHWH are pronounced Yahweh. The consontents
JHVH or YHWH are considered more correct for those that do not speak a
gutteral language (The majority).

There just isn't any possible way that "Allah" can be resolved from these
consontants. The "book" wasn't written by Arabs, remember. The septuagint,
although a Greek translation, still used the Hebrew consonants so there is
no room whatsoever for any ambiguity there.

A point that is rarely raised in any material on these matters is the fact
that in "the book" YHWH made a covenant (contract) with the Hebrews.
Exodus:27 "Write for yourselves these words, for it is in accordance with
these words that I do conclude a covenent with you (Moses) and Israel."
Now, if YHWH made a contract with Israel, and Islam recognises "the book" as
legitimate, when did he break that contract to go to the descendants of
Ishmail instead? Where is the new contract in the Quoran? I don't see it
anywhere.
Christianity HAS a covenent. Jesus said on the night before he died (Islam
says that he didn't realy die, but there is enormous evidence to support
that he certainly did, and none whatsoever is offered to support the Islamic
"claim" that he didn't) he said at Mathew 26:28 "...because this means my
'blood of the covenent' which will be poured out on behalf of many...".
Blood was poured onto the horns of the alter in the case of the covenent
made with the hebrews. So it was a contract signed in blood in both cases,
so to speak.

So, where is Islam's covenent?

The Quoran was written over 400 years after the death of Jesus. One thing,
amongst others, that is consistent throughout both "the book" and the
"gospels" is that the "prophets" always quoted the words of a previous
"prophet". Jesus quoted the previous "prophets" many many times, and this
is often used by authorities on the matter to sepperate what is considered
"authentic" material from what is not. The Quoran quotes none whatsoever,
and where it "alludes" to something written previously in these books it is
never a quote, and very often in error in this respect. That seems easy
enough to understand as the Quoranic authors evidently hadn't ever read "the
book" at all! The fact that Mohomad was illiterate would seem to offer some
understanding of this. And, although those who did the writting obviously
weren't illiterate in Arabic, they hadn't read "the book" either. ALL
previous "prophets" knew the previous "prophets" writings by heart!
Anyone who reads all these books carefully can easily recognize these
discrepancies in the Quoran.

Do you wonder that when Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting off the ear of a man
with the words "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" are
totaly at odds with Mohomad's methods of dealing with anyone who didn't
accept his new religion? For the sake of anyone else reading this, he put
them to the sword!

If someone presents a will or contractual document that claims to supercede
a previous one it requires more than eloquent writting to establish it's
authenticity!! Does it not? Fraud is nothing new in religion, and some
believe that religion is actualy entirely fraudulent, (each to thier own) so
anyone actualy wanting to know the truth in these matters needs to research
all the material very carefully.

The OP made a very good case as reqards the intrigue that was later
"included" into christianity, however he has evidently failed completely
where his own beliefs are concerned.

Your rebuttals need some meat Reqluq. That's an interesting name by the
way. You wouldn't be hiding your true identity by chance? If so, what or
who are you afraid of? It is far more dangerous to write rebuttals of Islam
than otherwise, wouldn't you agree?

Regards,
Vince Morgan
 
"Dave" <db5151@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
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"small giant" <mutawafayez@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:38ad5206-1380-4936-9688-5bd612d9f72f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.


Is that Al Alah, the moon goddess worshipped at Medina in Mohomad's day
whom
you refer to above? That was HER name before Mohomad, the self
proclaimed
prophet, came along. Did you know that? If so, how do you, according
to
your previous excellent logic reconcile this?
And if you do not, then explain to us all what the crescent moon on top
of
Islam's spires are all about. The stars around the crescent represent
her
daughters. Did you know that too?
Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy
know,
and beleive.
Vince



Oh, how cool. Thank you Vince. Where did you learn of these connections?
I myself am fascinated by the evolution of religion(s). Would be most
interested to find the source of your knowledge.

Thanks for a great hoot!

Dave
The truth is out there Dave, all you have to do is aquire a taste for it.
Regards,
Vince
 
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478f3758$0$20842$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
believe that the consonants YHWH are pronounced Yahweh. The consontents
JHVH or YHWH are considered more correct for those that do not speak a
Should read JHVH or YHVH.
 
"radiosrfun" <radiosrfun@radiosrfun.com> wrote in message
news:478e1186$0$26845$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net...
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478e066c$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Hi Vince,

As you are doing - so have I been known to do - reply to this crap. These
bozos get my blood pressure up just by mere mention of Allah and Islam. As
someone else recently pointed out either in this or one other news group -
and most likely true, these ass holes more than likely post this garbage
then run - never to look back at replies.

My point? Don't expect a reply from them.

Have a good day.


I couldn't agree more. Hit and run is their favourite method by far.
I once had an appointment to discuss this with a prominent sunni lawyer in
Beiruit, at his request.
For months prior to the proposed (by him) meeting, he kept alluding to how
badly I was going to be humiliated once I discovered how wrong I was, and
often told me how concerned he was for me in this respect in the months
preceding the arranged meeting..
In the meantime private detectives were going about here for
months(Australia) interviewing everyone they could find (claiming to be
representing a potential business partner) who either knew me, or had
dealings with me previously. They took pictures of my home(caught in the
act), followed me around etc etc.
When the time approached for me to fly to Beiruit (2001) for this meeting
and discusion (He had put aside a week for it, supposedly)and he realized he
hadn't frightened me off, he canceled the whole thing and eventualy went so
far as to "suggest" that if I did go to Beiruit anyway my welfare may be
compromised.
You might be wondering why this arrangement was made in the first place, and
all I will say here is that it was because his daughter had been discussing
this stuff with me, and no longer beleived as he did.
When they can't refute you with actuality they resort to,, err, err,, hmmm,
well,, there's enough already written about that I think.
They get your blood preassure up? ;)
Regards,
Vince
 
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478f43cf$0$26204$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"radiosrfun" <radiosrfun@radiosrfun.com> wrote in message
news:478e1186$0$26845$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net...
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478e066c$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Hi Vince,

As you are doing - so have I been known to do - reply to this crap. These
bozos get my blood pressure up just by mere mention of Allah and Islam.
As
someone else recently pointed out either in this or one other news
group -
and most likely true, these ass holes more than likely post this garbage
then run - never to look back at replies.

My point? Don't expect a reply from them.

Have a good day.


I couldn't agree more. Hit and run is their favourite method by far.
I once had an appointment to discuss this with a prominent sunni lawyer in
Beiruit, at his request.
For months prior to the proposed (by him) meeting, he kept alluding to how
badly I was going to be humiliated once I discovered how wrong I was, and
often told me how concerned he was for me in this respect in the months
preceding the arranged meeting..
In the meantime private detectives were going about here for
months(Australia) interviewing everyone they could find (claiming to be
representing a potential business partner) who either knew me, or had
dealings with me previously. They took pictures of my home(caught in the
act), followed me around etc etc.
When the time approached for me to fly to Beiruit (2001) for this meeting
and discusion (He had put aside a week for it, supposedly)and he realized
he
hadn't frightened me off, he canceled the whole thing and eventualy went
so
far as to "suggest" that if I did go to Beiruit anyway my welfare may be
compromised.
You might be wondering why this arrangement was made in the first place,
and
all I will say here is that it was because his daughter had been
discussing
this stuff with me, and no longer beleived as he did.
When they can't refute you with actuality they resort to,, err, err,,
hmmm,
well,, there's enough already written about that I think.
They get your blood preassure up? ;)
Regards,
Vince
Ever since 9/11 - Anything connected or remotely connected to Islam - their
actions, dealings, etc - just pisses me off to no end. The mere mention of
Allah - Muhammed, etc - just gets to me like a fingernail across a chalk
board.
And especially when they proclaim "peace and love" in their messages. Yeah
ok - whatever....... They have a strange way of showing it.
 
radiosrfun wrote:
Ever since 9/11 - Anything connected or remotely connected to Islam - their
actions, dealings, etc - just pisses me off to no end. The mere mention of
Allah - Muhammed, etc - just gets to me like a fingernail across a chalk
board.
And especially when they proclaim "peace and love" in their messages. Yeah
ok - whatever....... They have a strange way of showing it.
The cover article in this month's Foreign Policy magazine "A World
Without Islam" makes a convincing case that the world today would
be much the same if the "experiment" could be re-run without Islam
ever having developed.

Religion is often used as an organizing principle or a means to
excuse a course of action that really has its roots in power or
politics or economics. From Belfast to Baghdad, the examples are
too numerous to list.

It's not about Islam, it's about power and control.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/ The on-line article is subscriber-only,
however.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
 
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478f3758$0$20842$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"reqluq" <scredcropshonnospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ot8cm4l5b5t59@corp.supernews.com...

"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478e066c$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"small giant" <mutawafayez@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:38ad5206-1380-4936-9688-5bd612d9f72f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Let us pray to Allah for His help. Nothing is possible without His
help. O Allah! Guide us and guide all of humankind on the straight
path.


Is that Al Alah, the moon goddess worshipped at Medina in Mohomad's day
whom
you refer to above?

No the Allah hat was worshipped after that

Interesting. After that? So, who then was Al Alah? And when did the
worship of her and her daughters terminate?
Does it matter who Al Alah is/was? what matters is that Al Alah is not the
Allah mentioned in the Quran.
Oh and the worship of her daughters has nothing to do with Islam.

That was HER name

Al Alah is different from Allah


Yes, of course. He isn't supposed to be a SHE.
Smart guy you are.
Mohomad, the self proclaimed
prophet, came along.

All prophets were self proclaimed

That is true.


Did you know that? If so, how do you, according to
your previous excellent logic reconcile this?
And if you do not, then explain to us all what the crescent moon on top
of
Islam's spires are all about. The stars around the crescent represent
her
daughters. Did you know that too?

Did you know that they don't?

No I most certainly don't know that. In fact I KNOW very well indeed that
Al Alah, and her daughters WERE worshipped at Medina at the time of
Mohomad.
So you answered your own earlier question.

But, not thereafter. The crescent moon and stars on the spires? Please
enlighten us.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_the_crescent_moon_and_star_mean
" Its origins are not Arabic or Persian and it can not be Islamic due to the
strict, religious doctrines forbiding the usage of any symbols or the
painting/drawing/sclupting of human faces... these very important religious
facts are disregarded today by those trying to claim the Moon & Star as
their own today. "
http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm
" The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time
of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans
flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for
identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued
to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or
symbolism on it... It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon
and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. "

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcrescent.html
" In fact, the star and crescent are not (repeat, NOT) official symbols of
Islam. According to the Hadiths (collection of binding religous decisions),
it is a sin to use anything as a symbol of Allah (Arabic for "God"). "
Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy
know, and beleive.
Vince

You need to have a closer look

I assure you, you are either ignorant of this, or you are lying, there is
no
other position where "facts" are involved.
Please explain to us who Al Alah is then? And, do you know how she was
represented? Crescent moon, stars!
Now you know!! I am not ignorant nor lying..google well before you make
assertions my friend.

While I'm at it, I'll first appologise to the group for getting involved
in
this off topic spam in the first place.

Now, let me first state that I am not jewish, nor of jewish origin, nor do
I
practice judaism of any kind.

For the sake of those who do not know, "the book" refers specificaly to
the
first 5 books of the hebrew scripture, and occasianly to the entire work.

However, I do know absolutely, that the God of the judaic testament, "the
book" the old testament, hebrew testament or whatever you want to call it,
has a name. And although there is some controversy as to what that name is
exactly today, it never, ever, was in anyway shape or form "Allah" that
IS
certain. Most hebrew reading people ("the book" was written in hebrew)
believe that the consonants YHWH are pronounced Yahweh. The consontents
JHVH or YHWH are considered more correct for those that do not speak a
gutteral language (The majority).
Alleluya alleluya
ALLAHlluya ALLAHlluya meaning God be praised see the similaritis buddy?
That's what the angels called. In the nt when Jesus as on the cross he
called out ELOi Eloi ....there's that "L" again no "y or W"'s there.
remember Elohim?
There just isn't any possible way that "Allah" can be resolved from these
consontants. The "book" wasn't written by Arabs, remember. The
septuagint,
although a Greek translation, still used the Hebrew consonants so there is
no room whatsoever for any ambiguity there.

A point that is rarely raised in any material on these matters is the fact
that in "the book" YHWH made a covenant (contract) with the Hebrews.
Exodus:27 "Write for yourselves these words, for it is in accordance with
these words that I do conclude a covenent with you (Moses) and Israel."
Now, if YHWH made a contract with Israel, and Islam recognises "the book"
as
legitimate, when did he break that contract to go to the descendants of
Ishmail instead? Where is the new contract in the Quoran? I don't see
it
anywhere.
Christianity HAS a covenent. Jesus said on the night before he died
(Islam
says that he didn't realy die, but there is enormous evidence to support
that he certainly did, and none whatsoever is offered to support the
Islamic
"claim" that he didn't) he said at Mathew 26:28 "...because this means my
'blood of the covenent' which will be poured out on behalf of many...".
Blood was poured onto the horns of the alter in the case of the covenent
made with the hebrews. So it was a contract signed in blood in both
cases,
so to speak.
Order the myth of th cross and *was Jesus crucified* by Ahmed Deeat.
So, where is Islam's covenent?

The Quoran was written over 400 years after the death of Jesus. One
thing,
amongst others, that is consistent throughout both "the book" and the
"gospels" is that the "prophets" always quoted the words of a previous
"prophet". Jesus quoted the previous "prophets" many many times, and this
is often used by authorities on the matter to sepperate what is considered
"authentic" material from what is not. The Quoran quotes none whatsoever,
and where it "alludes" to something written previously in these books it
is
never a quote, and very often in error in this respect. That seems easy
enough to understand as the Quoranic authors evidently hadn't ever read
"the
book" at all! The fact that Mohomad was illiterate would seem to offer
some
understanding of this. And, although those who did the writting obviously
weren't illiterate in Arabic, they hadn't read "the book" either. ALL
previous "prophets" knew the previous "prophets" writings by heart!
Anyone who reads all these books carefully can easily recognize these
discrepancies in the Quoran.

Do you wonder that when Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting off the ear of a
man
with the words "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" are
totaly at odds with Mohomad's methods of dealing with anyone who didn't
accept his new religion? For the sake of anyone else reading this, he put
them to the sword!
So why did he tell them to sell their garments nd buy a sword? He saw he
couldn't win the fight, so wisely he told peter to put the sword down...and
the fact that peter had a sword means that he understood Jesus' clear
command to buy an actual one..
If someone presents a will or contractual document that claims to
supercede
a previous one it requires more than eloquent writting to establish it's
authenticity!! Does it not? Fraud is nothing new in religion, and some
believe that religion is actualy entirely fraudulent, (each to thier own)
so
anyone actualy wanting to know the truth in these matters needs to
research
all the material very carefully.

The OP made a very good case as reqards the intrigue that was later
"included" into christianity, however he has evidently failed completely
where his own beliefs are concerned.

Your rebuttals need some meat Reqluq. That's an interesting name by the
way. You wouldn't be hiding your true identity by chance?
Hiding? never heard of nicknames/screennames bud?

If so, what of who are you afraid of? It is far more dangerous to write
rebuttals of Islam
than otherwise, wouldn't you agree?
Why because I choose a nickname should I be afraid of something? nicks are
common practise bud...wise up
req
 
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:49:41 -0500, Rich Webb wrote:

It's not about Islam, it's about power and control.
I've long suspected that the origin of religion was some proto-human
tribesman who was significantly smarter than the tribe. He suddenly
realized that he didn't have to swing the biggest club or even lead the
biggest gang if he could use his imagination to put the Fear O' Gawd into
the club-swingers by convincing them that he could influence the world in
ways that they couldn't understand. Imagine the power that the
realization that the climate has a predictable cycle that is linked to
the phases of the moon gave to that first shaman, or the awe that the
proto-humans had for someone who could _use_ fire when the standard
response to fire was "RUN!"
 
"reqluq" <scredcropshonnospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13p01t5cnkbc07@corp.supernews.com...
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478f3758$0$20842$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
[snip]
No I most certainly don't know that. In fact I KNOW very well indeed
that
Al Alah, and her daughters WERE worshipped at Medina at the time of
Mohomad.

So you answered your own earlier question.
But, I did fail to mention previously that she was represented for an age
prior to either the Ottoman empire, or Islam by a crescent moon.
And you above indicate clearly I beleive that you are aware that the moon
god was worshiped at Medina during Mohomad's youth, prior to his travels to
what was then Palestine. His father worshipped her did he not?
And Archeology plainly shows that the crescent moon was ascociated with that
worship, long before the "Muslim" Ottomans, and later much of Islam
identified with it.

But, not thereafter. The crescent moon and stars on the spires? Please
enlighten us.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_the_crescent_moon_and_star_mean
" Its origins are not Arabic or Persian and it can not be Islamic due to
the
strict, religious doctrines forbiding the usage of any symbols or the
painting/drawing/sclupting of human faces... these very important
religious
facts are disregarded today by those trying to claim the Moon & Star as
their own today. "
And the police can't be corrupt because that would be against the law.
And politicians can't be corrupt because they write the laws.

http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm
" The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time
of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans
flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for
identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders
continued
to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or
symbolism on it... It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent
moon
and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. "
And, within the above material we also read;

"The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several
thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to
ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were
in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun,
moon, and sky gods."

Egypt and Babalon should also be added to the above peoples.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcrescent.html
" In fact, the star and crescent are not (repeat, NOT) official symbols of
Islam. According to the Hadiths (collection of binding religous
decisions),
it is a sin to use anything as a symbol of Allah (Arabic for "God"). "
Ohhh, so the "God" of Islam has no name?
The Hebrew scriptures contain a name that is a "name" for their "God", as
you seem to be well aware.

Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy
know, and beleive.
Vince

You need to have a closer look

I assure you, you are either ignorant of this, or you are lying, there
is
no
other position where "facts" are involved.
Please explain to us who Al Alah is then? And, do you know how she was
represented? Crescent moon, stars!

Now you know!! I am not ignorant nor lying..google well before you make
assertions my friend.
My words were strong and did not show the respect that you have above. For
that you have my apologies.
However, Google has a very large collection of links on this and it is a
matter of pick your own flavour in this matter. I don't like links that are
provided by religious sites of any denomination or faith. I'm sure I don't
need to explain why. Archeology is a more neutral source on such matters I
think and therefore much more authoritorive. But these works are not often
openly published on the internet unfortuantely.

http://www.geocities.com/umaximov/moon-god.htm
"The Religion of the Moon

The picture of the Babylonian Moon-God found on a cylinder seal in the
British Museum is from an archeological discovery from the Middle East,
which is now on display at the British Museum. Throughout the Fertile
Crescent from Egypt to Turkey, archeologists have dug up hundreds of little
idols with a crescent Moon sitting on their head. In ancient pagan temples,
there are walls with pictures of a god sitting on a throne with a crescent
Moon over his head. At times there are several stars placed near the Moon to
symbolize the daughters of the Moon god. "

[snip]
certain. Most hebrew reading people ("the book" was written in hebrew)
believe that the consonants YHWH are pronounced Yahweh. The consontents
JHVH or YHWH are considered more correct for those that do not speak a
gutteral language (The majority).
Alleluya alleluya
ALLAHlluya ALLAHlluya meaning God be praised see the similaritis buddy?
No it doesn't actualy. You realy blew it here completely
Interesting spelling you have used above. However, the phrase "hallelujah"
originates from Hebrew.
The name is written over 6000 times in the Hebrew writing and there is no
room whatsoever for the levering it into "Allah" as you are trying to here
I'm afraid. These writings predate Islam by at least 2 thousand years, but
of course the poor writers needed to wait until Mahomad came along to get it
right for them?

That's what the angels called. In the nt when Jesus as on the cross he
called out ELOi Eloi ....there's that "L" again no "y or W"'s there.
remember Elohim?
You're getting confused between the Word for "God" and a Name that the
Hebrews had for their "God". I expect you may be tempted here to suggest
that as there is only "one" god then the noun "god" can only refer to the
same being, and to be honest, I realy hope you do. My answer will require
you to deny "the gospel" and the words of Jesus whom Muslims believe was
certainly a prophet. Please do.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hallelujah
"hallelujah

1535, from Heb. hallalu-yah "praise Jehovah," from hallalu, pl. imper. of
hallel "to praise" also "song of praise," from hillel "he praised," of
imitative origin, with primary sense being "to trill." Second element is
yah, shortened form of Yahweh, name of God. Replaced variant formation
alleluia (12c.).
"
The spelling you have used above is completely unknown in any works I know
of, or could find. Perhaps you can elucidate?

There just isn't any possible way that "Allah" can be resolved from
these
consontants. The "book" wasn't written by Arabs, remember. The
septuagint,
although a Greek translation, still used the Hebrew consonants so there
is
no room whatsoever for any ambiguity there.

A point that is rarely raised in any material on these matters is the
fact
that in "the book" YHWH made a covenant (contract) with the Hebrews.
Exodus:27 "Write for yourselves these words, for it is in accordance
with
these words that I do conclude a covenent with you (Moses) and Israel."
Now, if YHWH made a contract with Israel, and Islam recognises "the
book"
as
legitimate, when did he break that contract to go to the descendants of
Ishmail instead? Where is the new contract in the Quoran? I don't see
it
anywhere.
Christianity HAS a covenent. Jesus said on the night before he died
(Islam
says that he didn't realy die, but there is enormous evidence to support
that he certainly did, and none whatsoever is offered to support the
Islamic
"claim" that he didn't) he said at Mathew 26:28 "...because this means
my
'blood of the covenent' which will be poured out on behalf of many...".
Blood was poured onto the horns of the alter in the case of the covenent
made with the hebrews. So it was a contract signed in blood in both
cases,
so to speak.

Order the myth of th cross and *was Jesus crucified* by Ahmed Deeat.
"Ahmed Deeat", hmmm, wouldn't be another Muslim trying to further the myth
that Jesus didn't die would he?
Bob the Builder might also have something to say on this, but I couldn't
find anything just now.
As for whether or not it was a cross or a pole, that is irrelevant as to
whether he died or not. Both methods were used by the Romans, who actualy
carried out the execution. This is clearly a Gnostic belief, with a light
twist, that Mohomad picked up during his travels, prior to his return and
consequent claim of devine revelations. Gnostics were quite common in Arab
lands at that time too.

So, where is Islam's covenent?

The Quoran was written over 400 years after the death of Jesus. One
thing,
amongst others, that is consistent throughout both "the book" and the
"gospels" is that the "prophets" always quoted the words of a previous
"prophet". Jesus quoted the previous "prophets" many many times, and
this
is often used by authorities on the matter to sepperate what is
considered
"authentic" material from what is not. The Quoran quotes none
whatsoever,
and where it "alludes" to something written previously in these books it
is
never a quote, and very often in error in this respect. That seems easy
enough to understand as the Quoranic authors evidently hadn't ever read
"the
book" at all! The fact that Mohomad was illiterate would seem to offer
some
understanding of this. And, although those who did the writting
obviously
weren't illiterate in Arabic, they hadn't read "the book" either. ALL
previous "prophets" knew the previous "prophets" writings by heart!
Anyone who reads all these books carefully can easily recognize these
discrepancies in the Quoran.

Do you wonder that when Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting off the ear of a
man
with the words "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" are
totaly at odds with Mohomad's methods of dealing with anyone who didn't
accept his new religion? For the sake of anyone else reading this, he
put
them to the sword!

So why did he tell them to sell their garments nd buy a sword? He saw he
He did? That is a new one on me. Would you mind offering a reference from
"the gospel" for us on that?

couldn't win the fight, so wisely he told peter to put the sword
down...and
the fact that peter had a sword means that he understood Jesus' clear
command to buy an actual one..
Strangley enough this is actualy totaly and completely contrary to what is
written in "the gospel". Should I repeat that "the Gospel" is considered
true and Holy by the Quoran?

Mathew26:53
"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my father to supply me at this
moment more that twelve legions of angels?"
And, paragraph 54 makes it clear Why he did not call for such help.
"In that case, how would the scriptures be fulfilled that it must take place
this way"?

I think what was written before and is refered to as "Holy" by the Quoran
must be taken as it's own authority, wouldn't you agree? Anything claiming
to be of the same origin (Holy)would need to be in harmony I would think.
You wouldn't agree?

If someone presents a will or contractual document that claims to
supercede
a previous one it requires more than eloquent writting to establish it's
authenticity!! Does it not? Fraud is nothing new in religion, and some
believe that religion is actualy entirely fraudulent, (each to thier
own)
so
anyone actualy wanting to know the truth in these matters needs to
research
all the material very carefully.

The OP made a very good case as reqards the intrigue that was later
"included" into christianity, however he has evidently failed completely
where his own beliefs are concerned.

Your rebuttals need some meat Reqluq. That's an interesting name by the
way. You wouldn't be hiding your true identity by chance?

Hiding? never heard of nicknames/screennames bud?
I must respect your right to that, and yes it's certainly very common. I
prefer to identify myself, and don't have a right to demand it of you.
However, "bud" isn't my name, which you have prefered to overlook
apparently.

If so, what of who are you afraid of? It is far more dangerous to write
rebuttals of Islam
than otherwise, wouldn't you agree?

Why because I choose a nickname should I be afraid of something? nicks are
common practise bud...wise up
req
I notice the level of respect you demonstrated toward me earlier ["friend"]
has degenerated somewhat? My intention is not to annoy you actualy, but to
enlighten you a little.

Vince Morgan
 
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:47908b4e$0$24086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"reqluq" <scredcropshonnospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13p01t5cnkbc07@corp.supernews.com...

"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478f3758$0$20842$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
[snip]
No I most certainly don't know that. In fact I KNOW very well indeed
that
Al Alah, and her daughters WERE worshipped at Medina at the time of
Mohomad.

So you answered your own earlier question.

But, I did fail to mention previously that she was represented for an age
prior to either the Ottoman empire, or Islam by a crescent moon.
And you above indicate clearly I beleive that you are aware that the moon
god was worshiped at Medina during Mohomad's youth, prior to his travels
to
what was then Palestine. His father worshipped her did he not?
And Archeology plainly shows that the crescent moon was ascociated with
that
worship, long before the "Muslim" Ottomans, and later much of Islam
identified with it.


But, not thereafter. The crescent moon and stars on the spires?
Please
enlighten us.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_the_crescent_moon_and_star_mean
" Its origins are not Arabic or Persian and it can not be Islamic due to
the
strict, religious doctrines forbiding the usage of any symbols or the
painting/drawing/sclupting of human faces... these very important
religious
facts are disregarded today by those trying to claim the Moon & Star as
their own today. "

And the police can't be corrupt because that would be against the law.
And politicians can't be corrupt because they write the laws.
But if they are corrupt that doesn't make it right...or a part of being what
a policeman is supposed to be.
stop footsie-ing areound
http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm
" The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the
time
of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans
flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for
identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders
continued
to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or
symbolism on it... It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent
moon
and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. "


And, within the above material we also read;

"The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several
thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to
ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols
were
in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun,
moon, and sky gods."

Egypt and Babalon should also be added to the above peoples.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcrescent.html
" In fact, the star and crescent are not (repeat, NOT) official symbols
of
Islam. According to the Hadiths (collection of binding religous
decisions),
it is a sin to use anything as a symbol of Allah (Arabic for "God"). "

Ohhh, so the "God" of Islam has no name?
The Hebrew scriptures contain a name that is a "name" for their "God", as
you seem to be well aware.


Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself actualy
know, and beleive.
Vince

You need to have a closer look

I assure you, you are either ignorant of this, or you are lying, there
is
no
other position where "facts" are involved.
Please explain to us who Al Alah is then? And, do you know how she was
represented? Crescent moon, stars!

Now you know!! I am not ignorant nor lying..google well before you make
assertions my friend.

My words were strong and did not show the respect that you have above.
For
that you have my apologies.
You are a big man someone else wouldn't hve apologised...apology accepted.

However, Google has a very large collection of links on this and it is a
matter of pick your own flavour in this matter. I don't like links that
are
provided by religious sites of any denomination or faith.
And I don't like links that make up their own assumptions not based on facts
of what the religion actually says. This cannot be guess work..if a muslim
tells you his religion does not worship sun gods etc. then that is it.

I'm sure I don't
need to explain why. Archeology is a more neutral source on such matters
I
think and therefore much more authoritorive. But these works are not
often
openly published on the internet unfortuantely.

http://www.geocities.com/umaximov/moon-god.htm
"The Religion of the Moon

The picture of the Babylonian Moon-God found on a cylinder seal in the
British Museum is from an archeological discovery from the Middle East,
which is now on display at the British Museum. Throughout the Fertile
Crescent from Egypt to Turkey, archeologists have dug up hundreds of
little
idols with a crescent Moon sitting on their head. In ancient pagan
temples,
there are walls with pictures of a god sitting on a throne with a crescent
Moon over his head. At times there are several stars placed near the Moon
to
symbolize the daughters of the Moon god. "
Yes but this hs nothing to do with Islam in it's pure form...remember that.

certain. Most hebrew reading people ("the book" was written in hebrew)
believe that the consonants YHWH are pronounced Yahweh. The
consontents
JHVH or YHWH are considered more correct for those that do not speak a
gutteral language (The majority).
Alleluya alleluya
ALLAHlluya ALLAHlluya meaning God be praised see the similaritis buddy?

No it doesn't actualy. You realy blew it here completely
Interesting spelling you have used above. However, the phrase
"hallelujah"
originates from Hebrew.
The name is written over 6000 times in the Hebrew writing and there is no
room whatsoever for the levering it into "Allah" as you are trying to here
I'm afraid. These writings predate Islam by at least 2 thousand years,
but
of course the poor writers needed to wait until Mahomad came along to get
it
right for them?
Well the christian bible in arabic uses Allah for God .

That's what the angels called. In the nt when Jesus as on the cross he
called out ELOi Eloi ....there's that "L" again no "y or W"'s there.
remember Elohim?


You're getting confused between the Word for "God" and a Name that the
Hebrews had for their "God". I expect you may be tempted here to suggest
that as there is only "one" god then the noun "god" can only refer to the
same being, and to be honest, I realy hope you do. My answer will require
you to deny "the gospel" and the words of Jesus whom Muslims believe was
certainly a prophet. Please do.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hallelujah
"hallelujah

1535, from Heb. hallalu-yah "praise Jehovah," from hallalu, pl. imper. of
hallel "to praise" also "song of praise," from hillel "he praised," of
imitative origin, with primary sense being "to trill." Second element is
yah, shortened form of Yahweh, name of God. Replaced variant formation
alleluia (12c.).
"
The spelling you have used above is completely unknown in any works I know
of, or could find. Perhaps you can elucidate?

There just isn't any possible way that "Allah" can be resolved from
these
consontants. The "book" wasn't written by Arabs, remember. The
septuagint,
although a Greek translation, still used the Hebrew consonants so there
is
no room whatsoever for any ambiguity there.

A point that is rarely raised in any material on these matters is the
fact
that in "the book" YHWH made a covenant (contract) with the Hebrews.
Exodus:27 "Write for yourselves these words, for it is in accordance
with
these words that I do conclude a covenent with you (Moses) and Israel."
Now, if YHWH made a contract with Israel, and Islam recognises "the
book"
as
legitimate, when did he break that contract to go to the descendants of
Ishmail instead? Where is the new contract in the Quoran? I don't
see
it
anywhere.
Christianity HAS a covenent. Jesus said on the night before he died
(Islam
says that he didn't realy die, but there is enormous evidence to
support
that he certainly did, and none whatsoever is offered to support the
Islamic
"claim" that he didn't) he said at Mathew 26:28 "...because this means
my
'blood of the covenent' which will be poured out on behalf of many...".
Blood was poured onto the horns of the alter in the case of the
covenent
made with the hebrews. So it was a contract signed in blood in both
cases,
so to speak.

Order the myth of th cross and *was Jesus crucified* by Ahmed Deeat.

"Ahmed Deeat", hmmm, wouldn't be another Muslim trying to further the myth
that Jesus didn't die would he?
Bob the Builder might also have something to say on this, but I couldn't
find anything just now.
As for whether or not it was a cross or a pole, that is irrelevant as to
whether he died or not. Both methods were used by the Romans, who actualy
carried out the execution. This is clearly a Gnostic belief, with a light
twist, that Mohomad picked up during his travels, prior to his return and
consequent claim of devine revelations. Gnostics were quite common in
Arab
lands at that time too.


So, where is Islam's covenent?

The Quoran was written over 400 years after the death of Jesus. One
thing,
amongst others, that is consistent throughout both "the book" and the
"gospels" is that the "prophets" always quoted the words of a previous
"prophet". Jesus quoted the previous "prophets" many many times, and
this
is often used by authorities on the matter to sepperate what is
considered
"authentic" material from what is not. The Quoran quotes none
whatsoever,
and where it "alludes" to something written previously in these books
it
is
never a quote, and very often in error in this respect. That seems
easy
enough to understand as the Quoranic authors evidently hadn't ever read
"the
book" at all! The fact that Mohomad was illiterate would seem to offer
some
understanding of this. And, although those who did the writting
obviously
weren't illiterate in Arabic, they hadn't read "the book" either. ALL
previous "prophets" knew the previous "prophets" writings by heart!
Anyone who reads all these books carefully can easily recognize these
discrepancies in the Quoran.

Do you wonder that when Jesus rebuked Peter for cutting off the ear of
a
man
with the words "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" are
totaly at odds with Mohomad's methods of dealing with anyone who didn't
accept his new religion? For the sake of anyone else reading this, he
put
them to the sword!

So why did he tell them to sell their garments nd buy a sword? He saw he

He did? That is a new one on me. Would you mind offering a reference
from
"the gospel" for us on that?
Luke 22:36: He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy
one...google my friend google..

http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm

couldn't win the fight, so wisely he told peter to put the sword
down...and
the fact that peter had a sword means that he understood Jesus' clear
command to buy an actual one..

Strangley enough this is actualy totaly and completely contrary to what is
written in "the gospel". Should I repeat that "the Gospel" is considered
true and Holy by the Quoran?
The original gospel that Jesus spoke; not the eyewitness accounts claimed in
the begining of luke

Mathew26:53
"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my father to supply me at this
moment more that twelve legions of angels?"
And, paragraph 54 makes it clear Why he did not call for such help.
"In that case, how would the scriptures be fulfilled that it must take
place
this way"?

I think what was written before and is refered to as "Holy" by the Quoran
must be taken as it's own authority, wouldn't you agree? Anything
claiming
to be of the same origin (Holy)would need to be in harmony I would think.
You wouldn't agree?

If someone presents a will or contractual document that claims to
supercede
a previous one it requires more than eloquent writting to establish
it's
authenticity!! Does it not? Fraud is nothing new in religion, and
some
believe that religion is actualy entirely fraudulent, (each to thier
own)
so
anyone actualy wanting to know the truth in these matters needs to
research
all the material very carefully.

The OP made a very good case as reqards the intrigue that was later
"included" into christianity, however he has evidently failed
completely
where his own beliefs are concerned.

Your rebuttals need some meat Reqluq. That's an interesting name by
the
way. You wouldn't be hiding your true identity by chance?

Hiding? never heard of nicknames/screennames bud?

I must respect your right to that, and yes it's certainly very common. I
prefer to identify myself, and don't have a right to demand it of you.
However, "bud" isn't my name, which you have prefered to overlook
apparently.


If so, what of who are you afraid of? It is far more dangerous to
write
rebuttals of Islam
than otherwise, wouldn't you agree?

Why because I choose a nickname should I be afraid of something? nicks
are
common practise bud...wise up
req

I notice the level of respect you demonstrated toward me earlier
["friend"]
has degenerated somewhat? My intention is not to annoy you actualy, but
to
enlighten you a little.

Vince Morgan
Duly noted, but just because I choose a certain path does not man that I
need to be "enlightened"
You, in my opinion, are giving your opinion on matters, as am I.I'm not
trying to enlighten you; just stating a position. Let's try to keep the
respect/courtesy thingeee going huh?
reqluq
 
"reqluq" <scredcropshonnospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13p1tmmrn9k5062@corp.supernews.com...
"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:47908b4e$0$24086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"reqluq" <scredcropshonnospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13p01t5cnkbc07@corp.supernews.com...

"Vince Morgan" <vinharAtHereoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:478f3758$0$20842$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
[snip]
No I most certainly don't know that. In fact I KNOW very well indeed
that
Al Alah, and her daughters WERE worshipped at Medina at the time of
Mohomad.

So you answered your own earlier question.

But, I did fail to mention previously that she was represented for an
age
prior to either the Ottoman empire, or Islam by a crescent moon.
And you above indicate clearly I beleive that you are aware that the
moon
god was worshiped at Medina during Mohomad's youth, prior to his travels
to
what was then Palestine. His father worshipped her did he not?
And Archeology plainly shows that the crescent moon was ascociated with
that
worship, long before the "Muslim" Ottomans, and later much of Islam
identified with it.


But, not thereafter. The crescent moon and stars on the spires?
Please
enlighten us.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_the_crescent_moon_and_star_mean
" Its origins are not Arabic or Persian and it can not be Islamic due
to
the
strict, religious doctrines forbiding the usage of any symbols or the
painting/drawing/sclupting of human faces... these very important
religious
facts are disregarded today by those trying to claim the Moon & Star as
their own today. "

And the police can't be corrupt because that would be against the law.
And politicians can't be corrupt because they write the laws.

But if they are corrupt that doesn't make it right...or a part of being
what
a policeman is supposed to be.
stop footsie-ing areound
http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm
" The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the
time
of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and
caravans
flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for
identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders
continued
to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing,
or
symbolism on it... It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent
moon
and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. "


And, within the above material we also read;

"The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several
thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult
to
ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols
were
in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of
sun,
moon, and sky gods."

Egypt and Babalon should also be added to the above peoples.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcrescent.html
" In fact, the star and crescent are not (repeat, NOT) official symbols
of
Islam. According to the Hadiths (collection of binding religous
decisions),
it is a sin to use anything as a symbol of Allah (Arabic for "God"). "

Ohhh, so the "God" of Islam has no name?
The Hebrew scriptures contain a name that is a "name" for their "God",
as
you seem to be well aware.


Perhaps you need to have a closer look at what you yourself
actualy
know, and beleive.
Vince

You need to have a closer look

I assure you, you are either ignorant of this, or you are lying,
there
is
no
other position where "facts" are involved.
Please explain to us who Al Alah is then? And, do you know how she
was
represented? Crescent moon, stars!

Now you know!! I am not ignorant nor lying..google well before you make
assertions my friend.

My words were strong and did not show the respect that you have above.
For
that you have my apologies.

You are a big man someone else wouldn't hve apologised...apology accepted.

However, Google has a very large collection of links on this and it is a
matter of pick your own flavour in this matter. I don't like links that
are
provided by religious sites of any denomination or faith.

And I don't like links that make up their own assumptions not based on
facts
of what the religion actually says. This cannot be guess work..if a muslim
tells you his religion does not worship sun gods etc. then that is it.

You are right, it's not guess work. I should simly take the word of a
Muslim as undeniable fact? Personal experience has taught me that they will
lie as readily as anyone else when it suits them.

I'm sure I don't
need to explain why. Archeology is a more neutral source on such
matters
I
think and therefore much more authoritorive. But these works are not
often
openly published on the internet unfortuantely.

http://www.geocities.com/umaximov/moon-god.htm
"The Religion of the Moon

The picture of the Babylonian Moon-God found on a cylinder seal in the
British Museum is from an archeological discovery from the Middle East,
which is now on display at the British Museum. Throughout the Fertile
Crescent from Egypt to Turkey, archeologists have dug up hundreds of
little
idols with a crescent Moon sitting on their head. In ancient pagan
temples,
there are walls with pictures of a god sitting on a throne with a
crescent
Moon over his head. At times there are several stars placed near the
Moon
to
symbolize the daughters of the Moon god. "

Yes but this hs nothing to do with Islam in it's pure form...remember
that.

[snip]
certain. Most hebrew reading people ("the book" was written in
hebrew)
believe that the consonants YHWH are pronounced Yahweh. The
consontents
JHVH or YHWH are considered more correct for those that do not speak
a
gutteral language (The majority).
Alleluya alleluya
ALLAHlluya ALLAHlluya meaning God be praised see the similaritis buddy?

No it doesn't actualy. You realy blew it here completely
Interesting spelling you have used above. However, the phrase
"hallelujah"
originates from Hebrew.
The name is written over 6000 times in the Hebrew writing and there is
no
room whatsoever for the levering it into "Allah" as you are trying to
here
I'm afraid. These writings predate Islam by at least 2 thousand years,
but
of course the poor writers needed to wait until Mahomad came along to
get
it
right for them?

Well the christian bible in arabic uses Allah for God .
Yes, they do. But what that means I shall explain.

Islam says that Allah is the shortened form of Al Alah, or Al Ilah. It
further says that Al Alah literally means "The God". The phraise "The God"
is not, I repeat, Not, a name. The man, the word, the house etc etc aren't
names by any stretch, but they all do refer to a "specific" one of whatever
you are refering to at the time.
At John 1:1 in the original coine Greek, the language it was written in, it
says that Jesus was, prior to being born human, "Theos" and that he was with
"ho-Theos".
Today most christian writers, and the bibles they produce, deliberately
leave out the distinction. This deliberate omision on their part is a ruse
similar to what I find in Islam's arguments about "the God".

Theos means a devine being, 'a' god, but does not infer that all devine
beings are the "Almighty Devine Being". No, that distinction is made with
the addition of the prefixed "ho". See the similarities betweeen the
twisting of what is actualy written, and the way it's presented both in most
of Christianity, and in All of Islam? In Islam they have taken what actualy
means "the God" and presented it to the rest of the non Islamic world as
God's name. A ruse.

The Arab tribes at the time of Mohomad's birth worshipped over 300 gods.
Each tribe had their own favourite god, and that paricular god was "the
God", or Allah, for that tribe. If I am wrong here I would urge you to
respond for the sake of anyone else reading.

Mohomad's tribe the "Quorish" (Note the name of the tribe, and the strangely
similar name for the Quoran) had the moon god as their Al Alah, or in the
shortened version Allah. You have admitted that this Allah of Mohomad's
tribe, at the time of his birth, was the mood god. But, as you say, this is
not the Allah that is worshipped today in Islam. You might be surprised to
read that I actualy agree with you on that. Allah, or "the God", is now
worshipped by ALL the Arab tribes, and is not a NAME at all, and never was.
You probabley realized this, and I was hoping you would address this before,
but you haven't. The Muslim Ottomans clearly didn't pick the crescent moon
with stars at random. The crescent moon with three stars was the symbol
used for "the God", or Allah, of the Quorish though the stars are sometimes
omitted. Strange coincidence wouldn't you say?

However, there is are enormous differences between "the God" worshipped by
Jesus, and "the God" worshipped in Islam. Islam's God doesn't actualy have
a name at all. Whereas Jesus worshipped "the God" of the Hebrews who's name
is YHWH, or JHVH. That name IS an actual name, although again there has
been enormous effort in trying and conceal this in Christianity as a whole,
and completely in Islam. The Christian churches, or most thereof, have
done so in order to try and promote Jesus to the position of "the God" as is
very well argued in the original post. Islam has done so to promote Allah
as the Name of The Almighty Define Being. In both case it is fraudulant.

[snip, no responce]

He did? That is a new one on me. Would you mind offering a reference
from
"the gospel" for us on that?

Luke 22:36: He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy
one...google my friend google..

http://bible.cc/luke/22-36.htm
I'll simply use the link you have provided to reply to this.
{m} Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it,
and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment,
and buy one.
(m) He says all this using an allegory, as if he said, O my friends and
fellow soldiers, you have lived until now in relative peace: but now there
is at hand a most severe battle to be fought, and you must therefore lay all
other things aside and think about dressing yourselves in armour. And what
this armour is, is shown by his own example, when he prayed afterward in the
garden and reproved Peter for striking with the sword.

the fact that peter had a sword means that he understood Jesus' clear
command to buy an actual one..

Strangley enough this is actualy totaly and completely contrary to what
is
written in "the gospel". Should I repeat that "the Gospel" is
considered
true and Holy by the Quoran?

The original gospel that Jesus spoke; not the eyewitness accounts claimed
in
the begining of luke
I don't recall or read anywhere where I have quoted any of Lukes gospel?

[snip]

I notice the level of respect you demonstrated toward me earlier
["friend"]
has degenerated somewhat? My intention is not to annoy you actualy, but
to
enlighten you a little.

Vince Morgan

Duly noted, but just because I choose a certain path does not man that I
need to be "enlightened"
You, in my opinion, are giving your opinion on matters, as am I.I'm not
trying to enlighten you; just stating a position. Let's try to keep the
respect/courtesy thingeee going huh?
reqluq


A path that leads to water in a desert region should be very carefully
chosen, wouldn't you agree?
Taking the wrong one would lead to death, whereas the other to life.
Some would choose their path on the basis of the nice scenery along the way.
Others would choose one that has less stones and therefore more comfortable
etc etc. Another will simply follow the group he is with, with little
reasoning other than "A billion chinese can't all be Wong can they?"
If there is any ambiguity whatsoever over the "true" path, a wise man
considers all the material he can first.
Regards,
Vince
 

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