Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Saint wrote:
I urge you to stop playing Doom for a while, and go read a book. It's
also of importance to open your window and look outside to see how the
real world is going.
--------------
I've NEVER played "Doom" and I've read FAR more than YOU have!
Believe it!
Believe? But you are against religion!
of the front of our homes. This is probably one reason for the latentOn a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 09:07:14 -0400) it happened Chuck Harris
cfharris@erols.com> wrote in <40979583$0$3020$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:
R. Steve Walz wrote:
You want equal outcome, despite differences in ability, effort, and pure
dumb luck.
------------------------
Nope, greater effort should result in greater wealth, effort is to
be measured solely by the hours spent at productive labor requested
by the Majority.
That right there is what killed the Soviet Union's socialist experiment.
You are using quantity of work as the predictor of one's wealth, not
quality of work.
The capitalistic system always rewards quality of work more than it
rewards simple quantity.
You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.
-Chuck
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
Apparently, unlike your area, we don't defecate in the trench outside
The engineer can always become a ditch digger. All it takes is a shovelYou say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.
-Chuck
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)
You would be surprised:Soeren, you are really naive if you think that this war's continuation
or cessation hinges on anyone here's sexual desires, or feelings.
Oh, of course! Anyone who's not a convert to The Church of Steve"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in
news:40958DD9.76A@armory.com:
I like to say the Truth without abrading its edges.
The Truth as you see it... Do you and you alone have The Truth(tm) ?
Somehow, this item from good ol Ben Franklin seems apropos here:KR Williams wrote:
Bottom line:
That's why we all laugh at you. You're the lone wolf thrown out
by mommy and can't find a female who wants the bother with a
communist dog.
--
Keith
--------------------------
Haha! If you only REALLY knew!
It's amazing how many unadorned 40-50-something women want just an
intelligent lick/suck/fuck-friend who DOESN'T want to move in with
them and run their life for them!
Yeah, the fat old snaggle-tooth has-been spinsters are easy, aren't--------------------------
Haha! If you only REALLY knew!
It's amazing how many unadorned 40-50-something women want just an
intelligent lick/suck/fuck-friend who DOESN'T want to move in with
them and run their life for them!
Odd that you make such an assertion when, by your words, you indicateThe sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old
parchments or musty records. They are written as with a sunbeam in the
whole volume of human nature by the hand of Divinity itself, and can
never be erased or obscured by mortal power.
- Alexander Hamilton
-------------------
And when they are established, humanity will at last flourish!!
Who's the Boss?On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 09:07:14 -0400) it happened Chuck Harris
cfharris@erols.com> wrote in <40979583$0$3020$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)
Jan Panteltje wrote:
You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)
The engineer can always become a ditch digger. All it takes is a shovel
and a pick. Can the ditch digger become an engineer if you give him a
calculator?
---On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 03:38:51 GMT) it happened "R. Steve Walz"
rstevew@armory.com> wrote in <40971112.2CE3@armory.com>:
Saint wrote:
I urge you to stop playing Doom for a while, and go read a book. It's
also of importance to open your window and look outside to see how the
real world is going.
--------------
I've NEVER played "Doom" and I've read FAR more than YOU have!
Believe it!
Believe? But you are against religion!
No you won't, you'll be disingenuous again.In article <40972DB6.1EF2@armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> writes:
John S. Dyson wrote:
In article <40972721.5B9B@armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> writes:
Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 03:37:31 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
The Majority does, and what it chooses finally inevitably, will
be the Established Truth for this species.
And if the majority decides to sentence someone to death one day, and
then to revoke the sentence the next?
---------------------------
Ooops. They do that already, my system is no different.
Ooops, your claim is definitely wrong WRT in the US.
----------------
I guess you haven't read about the Innocence Project's review
of executions the last 20 years.
You are being dishonest about the context. (This isn't 'I guess', but is
proven.) Here I'll re-insert the context:
--------------------------------
The majority sets up and operates the courts, they can do it directlyAnd if the majority decides to sentence someone to death one day, and
then to revoke the sentence the next?
---------------------------
Ooops. They do that already, my system is no different.
Here -- I make the claim that this isn't the American system. The
'majority' doesn't really make the decision, in fact, a Judge can
throw out a death sentence. The US laws set guidelines that are
much more restrictive than your mob rule mentality.
-------------------------------
I never postulated any such thing, how ridiculous, is THAT what youNote that you are creating a straw argument about mistaken innocent
guilty verdicts. This has nothing to do with your suggested lawless society,
where it is totally by fiat.
----------------------------
That what? You actually think this system has no principls of law??Note also that TOO OFTEN there are political
agendas that
------------------------------
Nonsense, it functions perfectly well in small or large groups,The rule
of law is the basis of our decision making processes, while a
Jury only ejudicates the decision based upon the law (modulo
Jury nullification.) There are MANY MANY more checks and balances
in the American system beyond your beloved MOB RULE.
-----------------------------
I have no such love. You're a liar.
Democracy is the opposite of mob rule.
Anyone who knows what Democracy is -- it is definitely a mob
rule form of government. Are you stupid enough to believe that
there is any democracy in the world (or any system could function
under a democracy?) A very, very small state (perhaps a few 10ks),
with a homogeneous population might be able to be sustained
as a democracy or even a socialist state, but beyond that,
it is a wet dream of yours. A family is a perfect example of
the effective scale of 'socialism', for example.
-----------------------------------
The current system is only a bare democracy, largely unfulfilledNow, if you want to use common language usage where the American
system is called a 'democracy', then we have to define a huge
set of terms, because in a necessarily technical sense, even
though commonly called a 'democracy', the so called 'democratic'
systems in the world are not (and can not be) democratic.
---------------------------------
Mobs aren't Majorities, Majorities don't need to organize mobs,If you want to discuss these issues, then YOU MUST describe your
system in detail, along with the legal system and the political
system. 'Democracy' doesn't cut it, unless you mean mob rule.
-------------------------------
I can discuss whatever you like, but you never get around to thatI wouldn't call you a liar, but simply recognize that you are
incompetent. Obviously, you are talking about things that you
aren't competent to discuss.
---------------------------------
It's a barely functional hijacked political democracy, whereasNow, if you want to define your terms, then there might be a
basis of discussion: for example, the US is a constitutional
government with some democratic elections for various kinds of
representatives. Even though it is accurate, it isn't sufficient.
------------------------------
If you get round to it, I can teach you.So, start defining your terms, and specify the various governmental
and economic structures. Otherwise, you just blather.
John
----------------------------
They had no such "democracy" except in the sense of the peopleIn article <40972A67.4143@armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> writes:
John S. Dyson wrote:
In article <slrnc9e69e.m69.jdege@jdege.visi.com>,
jdege@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) writes:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 03:37:31 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
The Majority does, and what it chooses finally inevitably, will
be the Established Truth for this species.
And if the majority decides to sentence someone to death one day, and
then to revoke the sentence the next?
Tyranny of the majority is just as much to be denounced and resisted as
any other.
There is too often a propaganda mistake made by the US, but perhaps
it is necessary: Democracy (in the literal sense) is tyrranical, and
should be avoided.
---------------
Nonsense.
Majorities who vote rights for one vote those same rights for
themselves. No Majority votes to enslave a minority, because
each wonders if he might be next!!
Wrong -- take a look at the structure in Iraq (without external
manipulation), and evaluate the effect of 'Democracy.'
------------
That's NOT a democracy merely because people are afflicted withHint:
the numbers will show that the Shite majority will have effective
control. Then, take a look at the probable Sunni/Kurd dissidents,
and think about the chaos resulting from human nature. The
fear of being in the 'minority' is non-operative because of the
long term (timescale) feedback process. People don't tend to
think much beyond the 6month-2yr timeframe, so the feedback that
you suppose is nonexistant. Essentially, you set-up the resultant
situation for tyrrany of one kind or another.
------------------------
Nonsense. Minorities canot be allowed to violate the principles ofThe only way to maintain stability in such a naturally federal system
is to set a framework where rights are maintained, and laws subordinate
to the constitution won't threaten the freedom or rights of the minority.
--------------------------
I can't tell if we're saying the same thing here or not.A system with democratic elections and constitutional guarantees for
rights and freedom is one example that provides some balance -- but
is NOT a democratic system per se. There are likely other systems
that can provide the balance, but they will definitely NOT be democratic.
-------------------------------
Majority Democracy can never be a mob, it doesn't need one, since itDemocracy in your way of thinking is tantamount to mob rule. It is
clear that you don't have the ability to think about in-depth
(or even trivial) consequences of idealistically pure results of
mental masturbation.
----------------------
Disingenuous.Hint: start thinking several steps beyond the idealistic imposition
that assumes a beneavolent ruler, and then evaluation the various
destablizing factors and how the system will maintain balance before
destruction (or the creation of your so beloved stalin like leader,
------------
And your strawman only.which is the epitome of non-democratic, but almost directly resulting
from pure democracy and human nature.)
----------------
American families aren't democratic, though they should be. Nor canYour kind of system can certainly work on the american sized family
level of complexity, or perhaps even slightly larger (perhaps on
a tribal basis.) Beyond that, even at a US county sized entity,
your system will break down into dictatorship (again, unless
there are constitutional guarantees.)
John
-----------------------------
No, if you SELL it, THEN you don't own it, and might as well never!!On Tue, 04 May 2004 04:52:45 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:
Because even if
you could manage such a redistribution, only weeks later the distribution
would be uneven again, because of differences in individual's desires,
ability, and chance.
----------------
Land then will no longer be salable, only tradable for the same
amount of residential land and home. All other land is governed
for social use by the Local Majority.
If you can't sell it, you don't own it.
----------------
The power is the Majority, which holds the entire world in common.What you plan is to have all land owned by the government, and controlled
by those in power.
-------------------------
Feudalism is the absconding by a minority with Majority power.In other words, a return to feudalism.
-----------------------------
An idiotic notion. The only things a decent society cannot offeris a modest and even humble creed, based on a low opinion of
men's wisdom and capacities and aware that, withing the range for which
we can plan, even the best society will not satisfy all our desires.
--------------------
This Right-wing Rightist asshole sure hates reformers, as only aIt is as remote from perfectionism as it is from the hurry and impatience
of the passionate reformer, whose indignation about particular evils
so often blinds him to the harm and injustice that the realization of
his plans is likely to produce.
-----------------
The Majority always imposes its beliefs upon others, that is itsAmbition, impatience, and hurry are
often admirable in individuals; but they are pernicious if they guide
the power of coercion and if improvement depends on those who, when
authority is conferred on them, assume that in their authority lies
superior wisdom and thus the right to impose their beliefs on others.
-------------------------------
Nothing but rich-purchased anti-socialist propaganda.I hope our generation may have learned that it has been perfectionism of
one kind or another that has often destroyed whatever degree of decency
societies have achieved.
-----------------
Garbage.With more limited objectives, more patience,
and more humility, we may in fact advance further and faster than we have
done while under the guidance of "a proud and most presumptive confidence
in the transcendent wisdom of this age, and in its discernment."
- F.A. Hayek, "The Constitution of Liberty"
---------------------------------------
Then it won't be the final evolution of the Majority Democracy.On Tue, 04 May 2004 05:26:56 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
John S. Dyson wrote:
There is too often a propaganda mistake made by the US, but perhaps
it is necessary: Democracy (in the literal sense) is tyrranical, and
should be avoided.
---------------
Nonsense.
Majorities who vote rights for one vote those same rights for
themselves. No Majority votes to enslave a minority, because
each wonders if he might be next!! The Majority only votes
to oppose criminality.
And if the majority votes that R. Steve Walz is an Enemy of the
People, and his property should be siezed, and he imprisoned, for the
encouragement of the others?
--------------------------------
Nope. Never happened, read the detail. People were paid differentlyR. Steve Walz wrote:
You want equal outcome, despite differences in ability, effort, and pure
dumb luck.
------------------------
Nope, greater effort should result in greater wealth, effort is to
be measured solely by the hours spent at productive labor requested
by the Majority.
That right there is what killed the Soviet Union's socialist experiment.
---------------
Not predictor, predicator. The quality is guaranteed by the workerYou are using quantity of work as the predictor of one's wealth, not
quality of work.
-------------------------------------
There is no need to reward quality, that's what quality control andThe capitalistic system always rewards quality of work more than it
rewards simple quantity.
----------------------------
Saying it is so, unfortunately for all you who decline to reason,You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong.
-----------------------
When a ditch is dug, it stays dug, it doesn't have to be re-done.When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service.
-----------------------
They're fucking identically equal!!!The two efforts are not even close to equal.
-Chuck
------------------------
Think sewer pipe, moron!!In article <c78l3m$brh$1@news.epidc.co.kr>,
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> writes:
On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 09:07:14 -0400) it happened Chuck Harris
cfharris@erols.com> wrote in <40979583$0$3020$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:
R. Steve Walz wrote:
You want equal outcome, despite differences in ability, effort, and pure
dumb luck.
------------------------
Nope, greater effort should result in greater wealth, effort is to
be measured solely by the hours spent at productive labor requested
by the Majority.
That right there is what killed the Soviet Union's socialist experiment.
You are using quantity of work as the predictor of one's wealth, not
quality of work.
The capitalistic system always rewards quality of work more than it
rewards simple quantity.
You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.
-Chuck
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
Apparently, unlike your area, we don't defecate in the trench outside
of the front of our homes.[]
John
--------------------
If the State educates him, which is his equal right, sure. It mattersJan Panteltje wrote:
You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.
-Chuck
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)
The engineer can always become a ditch digger. All it takes is a shovel
and a pick. Can the ditch digger become an engineer if you give him a
calculator?
-Chuck
-------------------------
You sound just like a religious nutcase.Nonsense. Minorities canot be allowed to violate the principles of
the Majority. Illiterate religious nutcakes can NEVER, repreat,
NEVER adapt to a decent secular Majority Democracy.
The issue isn't who sets up the courts, but whether they operate under-------------------------------
The majority sets up and operates the courts, they can do it directly
or indirectly. No such distinction as you make exists. Your "mob"
notion about direct democracy is merely disingenuous.