Very high speed oneshot...

On 03/09/2020 00:39, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 22:52:53 +1000, Chris Jones
lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

On 02/09/2020 04:17, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2020 18:25:20 +0100, David Nadlinger
david@klickverbot.at> wrote:

On 01.09.20 5:44 pm, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
An ECL-output comparator is an open emitter, so add a cap and a weak
pulldown to make a stretcher. Since the \'582 is a dual, use the other
half as a discriminator on the stretched pulse.

The 582 is expensive. One of the slower parts, like a 561, would work
at these speeds.

Well, the source pulses in our case were ~5 ps, and only some 100 ps (at
the trigger level) out of the photodiode. For a one-off lab gadget like
this, it seemed less complex to first square it up as faithfully as
possible while keeping the rising edge intact, and then manipulate the
cleanly driven logic signals. Parts cost is of less relevance than the
inelegance of my solution here. ;)

Are you pulse picking? I developed a pretty cool Pockels Cell driver
for a biggish laser company who didn\'t buy many.

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T850DS.shtml


Using a dual like the ADCMP561 (the ADCMP582 is a single) for a
stretcher is indeed a good suggestion, though. Speaking of which, what
actually happens in practice if you drive fast comparators like those
with a pulse shorter than the specified minimum pulse width? I\'ve never
tried…

Right, 582 is an expensive single. We use them when we absolutely have
to.

I wish Analog would add the ADCMP comparator models to LT Spice, so we
could simulate cases like the one you suggest.



I\'m not sure that I would trust the models when used outside the
datasheet operating conditions. I\'m sure they have internal transistor
level ADICE models that would accurately predict behaviour in these
conditions, but then IIRC they tend to give some idealised model to
customers instead of the accurate transistor level model. I can\'t
understand the motivation for this. The idea that this would stop a
competitor from reverse-engineering it is silly - 1. any serious
competitor would easily be able to open one up and extract the schematic
and 2. they probably already bought the competitor anyway.


Probably for simulation speed.
Yes, though if I wanted the wrong answer quickly I could easily make my
own ideal amplifier model. The transistor level models converge more
reliably too, in my experience. I have often had to modify vendor models
to stop them from preventing convergence or causing timestep too small
problems - that was a real waste of time. Simulation time is usually not
a problem these days, but if it were, then they could provide two
models, which they already have anyway.
 
On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:18:57 +1000, Chris Jones
<lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

On 03/09/2020 00:39, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 22:52:53 +1000, Chris Jones
lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

On 02/09/2020 04:17, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 1 Sep 2020 18:25:20 +0100, David Nadlinger
david@klickverbot.at> wrote:

On 01.09.20 5:44 pm, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
An ECL-output comparator is an open emitter, so add a cap and a weak
pulldown to make a stretcher. Since the \'582 is a dual, use the other
half as a discriminator on the stretched pulse.

The 582 is expensive. One of the slower parts, like a 561, would work
at these speeds.

Well, the source pulses in our case were ~5 ps, and only some 100 ps (at
the trigger level) out of the photodiode. For a one-off lab gadget like
this, it seemed less complex to first square it up as faithfully as
possible while keeping the rising edge intact, and then manipulate the
cleanly driven logic signals. Parts cost is of less relevance than the
inelegance of my solution here. ;)

Are you pulse picking? I developed a pretty cool Pockels Cell driver
for a biggish laser company who didn\'t buy many.

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/T850DS.shtml


Using a dual like the ADCMP561 (the ADCMP582 is a single) for a
stretcher is indeed a good suggestion, though. Speaking of which, what
actually happens in practice if you drive fast comparators like those
with a pulse shorter than the specified minimum pulse width? I\'ve never
tried…

Right, 582 is an expensive single. We use them when we absolutely have
to.

I wish Analog would add the ADCMP comparator models to LT Spice, so we
could simulate cases like the one you suggest.



I\'m not sure that I would trust the models when used outside the
datasheet operating conditions. I\'m sure they have internal transistor
level ADICE models that would accurately predict behaviour in these
conditions, but then IIRC they tend to give some idealised model to
customers instead of the accurate transistor level model. I can\'t
understand the motivation for this. The idea that this would stop a
competitor from reverse-engineering it is silly - 1. any serious
competitor would easily be able to open one up and extract the schematic
and 2. they probably already bought the competitor anyway.


Probably for simulation speed.
Yes, though if I wanted the wrong answer quickly I could easily make my
own ideal amplifier model. The transistor level models converge more
reliably too, in my experience. I have often had to modify vendor models
to stop them from preventing convergence or causing timestep too small
problems - that was a real waste of time. Simulation time is usually not
a problem these days, but if it were, then they could provide two
models, which they already have anyway.

I generally use the LT Spice UniversalOpamp2 model, and tweak the
parameters if needed.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 1:45:41 AM UTC+10, mgi...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi All,

I am hoping someone with with high speed experience could point me in the right direction.

My issue is that I have an ~850pS pulse (somewhat random pulse output) that I need to lengthen to 25nS. I have built many oneshot/timer circuits over the years but never this fast. My research seems to indicate that most timers (available ICs) need a minimum trigger pulse of several to ~ hundred nS. Retrigger time doesn\'t seem to be an issue (yet).

This circuit seems to do the job. R2 and R7 would be realised as a potentiometer - padded at both ends - which you would use to twiddle the quiescent voltage at the base of Q2 to be at the half maximum of the pulse you wanted to stretch. If the incoming pulse has an uncertain height, you\'d make the threshold a bit lower, and live with the fact that bigger pulses trigger early, or go on to realise a constant fraction discriminator, which is quite a bit more demanding, but perfectly practical with modern comparators (though it wasn\'t - quite - back in 1979).

R13 and R5 present a relatively low - but resistive - impedance at the base of Q2 which should be enough to stop the BFR92 from going into oscillation, which they have been known to do.

Version 4
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FLAG -880 496 0
FLAG 960 -320 out
SYMBOL npn 64 48 R0
SYMATTR InstName Q1
SYMATTR Value BFR92A
SYMBOL npn 704 -208 R0
SYMATTR InstName Q2
SYMATTR Value BFR92A
SYMBOL voltage -768 -80 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 5.0
SYMBOL voltage -736 624 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
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SYMATTR Value 4.5
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WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R13
SYMATTR Value 100
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SYMATTR InstName C3
SYMATTR Value 10n
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SYMATTR InstName C4
SYMATTR Value 10n
TEXT -272 1000 Left 2 !.model BFR92A NPN(IS=0.1213E-15 VAF=30 BF=94.73 IKF=0.46227 XTB=0 BR=10.729 CJC=946.47E-15 CJE=10.416E-15 TR=1.2744E-9 TF=26.796E-12 ITF=0.0044601 VTF=0.32861 XTF=0.3817 RB=14.998 RC=0.13793 RE=0.29088 Vceo=15 Icrating=4m mfg=Infineon)
TEXT -904 1024 Left 2 !.tran 0 500n 0

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 

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