Various Transistors Tested for Ic and Vce(sat)

[BFoelsch]

Crazy first guess - This thing switches when the voltage on the supply side
of the inductor drops below the BE drop of Q2. This is what starts the
collector rising.

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:guigvvcptme4tqs0mv3i5hiceu1kfehmg2@4ax.com...

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 09:19:57 -0800, "Baphomet" <no.spam@no.spam.us
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:2thgvv8ul00dhs1offnq1fg733d5vu7nu0@4ax.com...
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 08:57:28 -0800, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dark
Remover" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
I don't have a SPICE prog. Like Steve Ciarcia says, my favorite
programming language is solder.

Hey the thing's sitting there, working. For the inductor, I used a
Mouser #580-22R104.

(1) I didn't have in mind using Spice. Use pencil and paper.
Remember that stuff?

Will a slide rule do? ;-)

Sure! I used to teach a course in how to use a slide rule. I still
have my K&E in its green "leather" case with a belt clip ;-) Also a
*round* Post and a plastic "Acumath".


(2) What is the definition of "working"... as you *predicted* before
building it, or that it just happens to light the LED ?

I think the definition of this particular circuit working is when you see
a
plume of smoke rising from the L.E.D. and hear it screaming for mercy


It *does* lack of predictability, but I suspect that's fixable.

I can eyeball the thing and see how it works, but it'll probably be
tomorrow before I can put pencil-to-paper... I'm madly scrambling to
finish a design review report.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Baphomet]

"BFoelsch" <BFoelsch@snet.ditch.this.net> wrote in message
news:V-CdnWdmv-LtzWWiRVn-hw@giganews.com...

Crazy first guess - This thing switches when the voltage on the supply
side
of the inductor drops below the BE drop of Q2. This is what starts the
collector rising.

Circuit description:
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5886

 

[BFoelsch]

Yes, I read that. I didn't realize that the saturation voltage could be that
high, and I always considered it to be a limiting parameter, rather than an
operating parameter. I went scurrying back to my textbooks and refreshed
myself on how Vs varies with the Ic/Ib ratio. Apparently that is the clue
here. As the collector current increases, assuming a fixed supply voltage,
the circuit current ratio changes causing Vsat to rise.

I'm still not impressed, eben though the circuit appears to work.

"Baphomet" <no.spam@no.spam.us> wrote in message
news:vvgm1r6a0nsc8a@corp.supernews.com...

"BFoelsch" <BFoelsch@snet.ditch.this.net> wrote in message
news:V-CdnWdmv-LtzWWiRVn-hw@giganews.com...
Crazy first guess - This thing switches when the voltage on the supply
side
of the inductor drops below the BE drop of Q2. This is what starts the
collector rising.

Circuit description:
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5886

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 20:03:43 -0800, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dark
Remover" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote:

I built the simple LED V Boost circuit at
http://www.elecdesign.com/Files/29/5886/Figure_01.gif except I used a
BC338 for Q1 and added a 100 uF across the battery which is really a
power supply. I paralleled three LEDs because at higher currents the
single LED would overheat. I used a socket for Q2 so that I could
test various transistors.

Here are the various transistors and the total supply current for each
at 1.5VVDC. Nothing but the transistor was changed between tests.
The idea here is to show how much better the low Vce(sat) transistors
do in a flyback type circuit where a lot of current is switched.

2N3904 = 48 mA Can you spell W-I-M-P ??

2N4401 = 98 mA Supposed to handle a half amp.

BC338 = 132 mA Is good up to an Ic of 800 mA.

ZTX651 = 186 mA This has a max Ic of 2A

I couldn't test the BC639, 2SD965, and NTE11, etc., because the
collector is the center pin and I would have to rewire the socket.
I'll try these later, because they should do even better.

R2 wastes a lot of power.

John

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:59:21 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:29:03 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


Will a slide rule do? ;-)

Sure! I used to teach a course in how to use a slide rule. I still
have my K&E in its green "leather" case with a belt clip ;-) Also a
*round* Post and a plastic "Acumath".


Real men use a yellow Pickett.


John

Never did like those aluminum jobbies. All my K&E ever needed was a
little talc on the slides periodically.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:29:03 -0700, Jim Thompson
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Will a slide rule do? ;-)

Sure! I used to teach a course in how to use a slide rule. I still
have my K&E in its green "leather" case with a belt clip ;-) Also a
*round* Post and a plastic "Acumath".

Real men use a yellow Pickett.


John

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

In news:9icgvvgttikp1mefhuqeajpsmc1j7okold@4ax.com,
Jim Thompson typed:

Yep, You can get upwards of 500mA peak into the LED with the "right"
transistor.

My superficial observation is that the inductor is charged up to the 2.4
mA base current of Q2 times its beta, and the whole thing is dumped into
the LED. I may not know enough to design a good one, but just that much
is enough to see this is a bad one.

I also see what you mean about duty cycle, but I can't compute it.


--
-Reply in group, but if emailing add 2 more zeros-
-and remove the obvious-

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 19:51:44 GMT, "Tom Del Rosso"
<tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote:

In news:9icgvvgttikp1mefhuqeajpsmc1j7okold@4ax.com,
Jim Thompson typed:

Yep, You can get upwards of 500mA peak into the LED with the "right"
transistor.

My superficial observation is that the inductor is charged up to the 2.4
mA base current of Q2 times its beta, and the whole thing is dumped into
the LED. I may not know enough to design a good one, but just that much
is enough to see this is a bad one.

I also see what you mean about duty cycle, but I can't compute it.

You are the first person to note that the device comes out of
saturation based upon *BETA*! *NOT* the saturation rating of the
transistor!

Congratulations!

I tried to give Watson some measurement hints, but he ignored them,
citing Electronic Design as the "authority"... ROTFLMAO!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Baphomet]

"Tom Del Rosso" <tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:k9_Jb.596736$0v4.23506661@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

In news:9icgvvgttikp1mefhuqeajpsmc1j7okold@4ax.com,
Jim Thompson typed:

Yep, You can get upwards of 500mA peak into the LED with the "right"
transistor.

My superficial observation is that the inductor is charged up to the 2.4
mA base current of Q2 times its beta, and the whole thing is dumped into
the LED. I may not know enough to design a good one, but just that much
is enough to see this is a bad one.

I also see what you mean about duty cycle, but I can't compute it.

Here is the circuit explanation from their website
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5886

"The circuit description is cyclical, meaning there's a series of events
that loops back on itself. The cycle starts with the battery voltage
slightly above Q2's VBE. This creates a positive Q2 base current:
iB = (battery voltage ? VBE)/R2

and Q2 turns on, thus switching inductor L1 to ground. Q1 is off. Energy
stored within L1's magnetic field builds as L1's current rises with a
positive di/dt. As this current rises, it also flows through Q2's RSAT (D1
is off). Q2's collector voltage becomes sufficiently large to turn on Q1.
Q1's base voltage is connected to Q2's collector by the feed-forward network
of R1 and C1. R1 also serves as Q1's base current limit.

As Q1 turns on, the previous base drive to Q2 is then shunted to ground and
Q2 turns off. The switching off of Q2 discharges L1's energy into the LED
(D1) as the magnetic field collapses. This flyback action of L1
forward-biases D1, which gives up photon illumination in the form of white
light. With L1 discharged, Q1 turns back off. The self-oscillating action
repeats until the battery voltage falls below Q2's VBE.

L1, Q2's RSAT, and the switching characteristics of Q1 and Q2 dominate the
period and duty cycle of this oscillation. LED brightness depends directly
on the average current flow through D1. D1 is on while Q2 is off and off
while Q2 is on.

The oscilloscope waveforms
http://www.elecdesign.com/Files/29/5886/Figure_02.gif show the battery
current, D1 current, and D1 voltage during the switching period of 10.8 ľs
(93 kHz). With a 1.0-V battery voltage, the average battery current is 41
mA, and the average LED current is 14 mA. Using a Coilcraft DO1608-104
inductor and a Nichia BSPW500BS LED, the nominal input/output power
efficiency is 23%, 34%, and 72% with a battery voltage of 0.8 V, 1.0 V, and
1.5 V, respectively."

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

In news:fgogvv0cb3qafquumpssj13qo31a729ptt@4ax.com,
John Larkin typed:

R2 wastes a lot of power.

But a lot more is wasted through Q2, right? Looking at Fig 2 (graphs)
you can see that most of the integral of the supply current is during
the period when the LED is off. The text admits that the efficiency is
34% with a 1 volt supply.


--
-Reply in group, but if emailing add 2 more zeros-
-and remove the obvious-

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 12:14:34 -0800, "Baphomet" <no.spam@no.spam.us>
wrote:

"Tom Del Rosso" <tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:k9_Jb.596736$0v4.23506661@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
In news:9icgvvgttikp1mefhuqeajpsmc1j7okold@4ax.com,
Jim Thompson typed:

Yep, You can get upwards of 500mA peak into the LED with the "right"
transistor.

My superficial observation is that the inductor is charged up to the 2.4
mA base current of Q2 times its beta, and the whole thing is dumped into
the LED. I may not know enough to design a good one, but just that much
is enough to see this is a bad one.

I also see what you mean about duty cycle, but I can't compute it.


Here is the circuit explanation from their website
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5886

"The circuit description is cyclical, meaning there's a series of events
that loops back on itself. The cycle starts with the battery voltage
slightly above Q2's VBE. This creates a positive Q2 base current:
iB = (battery voltage ? VBE)/R2

and Q2 turns on, thus switching inductor L1 to ground. Q1 is off. Energy
stored within L1's magnetic field builds as L1's current rises with a
positive di/dt. As this current rises, it also flows through Q2's RSAT (D1
is off). Q2's collector voltage becomes sufficiently large to turn on Q1.
Q1's base voltage is connected to Q2's collector by the feed-forward network
of R1 and C1. R1 also serves as Q1's base current limit.

As Q1 turns on, the previous base drive to Q2 is then shunted to ground and
Q2 turns off. The switching off of Q2 discharges L1's energy into the LED
(D1) as the magnetic field collapses. This flyback action of L1
forward-biases D1, which gives up photon illumination in the form of white
light. With L1 discharged, Q1 turns back off. The self-oscillating action
repeats until the battery voltage falls below Q2's VBE.

L1, Q2's RSAT, and the switching characteristics of Q1 and Q2 dominate the
period and duty cycle of this oscillation. LED brightness depends directly
on the average current flow through D1. D1 is on while Q2 is off and off
while Q2 is on.

The oscilloscope waveforms
http://www.elecdesign.com/Files/29/5886/Figure_02.gif show the battery
current, D1 current, and D1 voltage during the switching period of 10.8 ľs
(93 kHz). With a 1.0-V battery voltage, the average battery current is 41
mA, and the average LED current is 14 mA. Using a Coilcraft DO1608-104
inductor and a Nichia BSPW500BS LED, the nominal input/output power
efficiency is 23%, 34%, and 72% with a battery voltage of 0.8 V, 1.0 V, and
1.5 V, respectively."

Marvelous! "...the battery voltage falls below Q2's VBE"... ROTFLMAO!

Tom Del Rosso properly pointed out that BETA is a key element.

All phases of this oscillator ARE CALCULABLE. Please attempt to do so
instead of giving a hand-waving re-description of the nonsense in the
Electronic Design article. For instance, please write out...

Tsat = f(beta, Vcc, L, RL, rsat, etc.)

Likewise...

Toff = g(beta, Vcc, L, RL, rsat, etc.)

BTW, the *only* restraint on battery voltage is that is must be less
than the VF of the LED. The ED article is just plain BS!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

In news:5urgvv8k6toepcj8jpettemeod1qesc1lf@4ax.com,
Jim Thompson typed:

You are the first person to note that the device comes out of
saturation based upon *BETA*! *NOT* the saturation rating of the
transistor!

I must have stumbled into the truth then.

I used to badger Win about putting more analysis into AoE instead of
lots of example circuits (and what he describes as "bad circuits" also)
that come with no analysis at all. I'm not sure, but I think he KF'ed
me. (When he responds to me it's always via answering another
responder.) Maybe it was because of politics though.

Pease and Frederickson books offer more insight, but I've only started
on them. I spend too much time reading here.


--
-Reply in group, but if emailing add 2 more zeros-
-and remove the obvious-

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Watson A. Name - Watt
Sun, Dark Remover <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote (in <MPG.1a61e1819f8619
85989b0a@news.dslextreme.com&gt about 'Various Transistors Tested for Ic
and Vce(sat)', on Sun, 4 Jan 2004:

Like to see you try that with toobs!! ;-P

I don't find it any problem with this EF76 I have here.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Jim Thompson
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote (in <vahgvvgr6soh8fg599hn1egdn8qeatkpgi@
4ax.com&gt about 'Various Transistors Tested for Ic and Vce(sat)', on
Sun, 4 Jan 2004:

For instance... what *is* saturation

Moisture from damping resistors gets into the package. This often makes
the transistor permanently saturated, as you can tell by Vce being very
nearby zero under all conditions.

and what determines when a
transistor will come out of saturation?

When it gets hot enough to evaporate the moisture.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that John Larkin <jjlarkin@
highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote (in <fgogvv0cb3qafquumpssj13
qo31a729ptt@4ax.com&gt about 'Various Transistors Tested for Ic and
Vce(sat)', on Sun, 4 Jan 2004:

R2 wastes a lot of power.

Use a 0.1 W type, then.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 20:33:03 GMT, "Tom Del Rosso"
<tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote:

In news:5urgvv8k6toepcj8jpettemeod1qesc1lf@4ax.com,
Jim Thompson typed:

You are the first person to note that the device comes out of
saturation based upon *BETA*! *NOT* the saturation rating of the
transistor!

I must have stumbled into the truth then.

No, I don't consider it stumbling to notice that the collector current
has to less-than or equal-to beta*Ib... sort of a fundamental
observation!

I used to badger Win about putting more analysis into AoE instead of
lots of example circuits (and what he describes as "bad circuits" also)
that come with no analysis at all.

Win is a *collector* of circuits... there really is *no* analysis in
AoE.

I'm not sure, but I think he KF'ed
me. (When he responds to me it's always via answering another
responder.) Maybe it was because of politics though.

Hey! That's an honor, you've been KF'd by a leftist wienie! (I just
love yanking Win's chain ;-)

Pease and Frederickson books offer more insight, but I've only started
on them. I spend too much time reading here.

Tom Frederiksen (note the spelling) and I shared a cubicle at Motorola
in the early '60's. We both learned a lot by critiquing each other's
circuits. And a lot of crazy coffee bets... I came up with the MC1554
all-NPN output stage on a coffee bet, also the composite
lateral-PNP-NPN scheme (posted on a.b.s.e previously) which gave us
predictable-performing lateral PNP's.

I'm referenced in Tom's OpAmp book on page 14.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Baphomet]

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:l5tgvv05p95uiq2eavm03vdj22tltouum4@4ax.com...

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 12:14:34 -0800, "Baphomet" <no.spam@no.spam.us
wrote:


"Tom Del Rosso" <tdnews01@att.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:k9_Jb.596736$0v4.23506661@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
In news:9icgvvgttikp1mefhuqeajpsmc1j7okold@4ax.com,
Jim Thompson typed:

Yep, You can get upwards of 500mA peak into the LED with the "right"
transistor.

My superficial observation is that the inductor is charged up to the
2.4
mA base current of Q2 times its beta, and the whole thing is dumped
into
the LED. I may not know enough to design a good one, but just that
much
is enough to see this is a bad one.

I also see what you mean about duty cycle, but I can't compute it.


Here is the circuit explanation from their website
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5886

"The circuit description is cyclical, meaning there's a series of events
that loops back on itself. The cycle starts with the battery voltage
slightly above Q2's VBE. This creates a positive Q2 base current:
iB = (battery voltage ? VBE)/R2

and Q2 turns on, thus switching inductor L1 to ground. Q1 is off. Energy
stored within L1's magnetic field builds as L1's current rises with a
positive di/dt. As this current rises, it also flows through Q2's RSAT
(D1
is off). Q2's collector voltage becomes sufficiently large to turn on Q1.
Q1's base voltage is connected to Q2's collector by the feed-forward
network
of R1 and C1. R1 also serves as Q1's base current limit.

As Q1 turns on, the previous base drive to Q2 is then shunted to ground
and
Q2 turns off. The switching off of Q2 discharges L1's energy into the LED
(D1) as the magnetic field collapses. This flyback action of L1
forward-biases D1, which gives up photon illumination in the form of
white
light. With L1 discharged, Q1 turns back off. The self-oscillating action
repeats until the battery voltage falls below Q2's VBE.

L1, Q2's RSAT, and the switching characteristics of Q1 and Q2 dominate
the
period and duty cycle of this oscillation. LED brightness depends
directly
on the average current flow through D1. D1 is on while Q2 is off and off
while Q2 is on.

The oscilloscope waveforms
http://www.elecdesign.com/Files/29/5886/Figure_02.gif show the battery
current, D1 current, and D1 voltage during the switching period of 10.8
ľs
(93 kHz). With a 1.0-V battery voltage, the average battery current is 41
mA, and the average LED current is 14 mA. Using a Coilcraft DO1608-104
inductor and a Nichia BSPW500BS LED, the nominal input/output power
efficiency is 23%, 34%, and 72% with a battery voltage of 0.8 V, 1.0 V,
and
1.5 V, respectively."


Marvelous! "...the battery voltage falls below Q2's VBE"... ROTFLMAO!

Tom Del Rosso properly pointed out that BETA is a key element.

All phases of this oscillator ARE CALCULABLE. Please attempt to do so
instead of giving a hand-waving re-description of the nonsense in the
Electronic Design article. For instance, please write out...

Tsat = f(beta, Vcc, L, RL, rsat, etc.)

Likewise...

Toff = g(beta, Vcc, L, RL, rsat, etc.)

BTW, the *only* restraint on battery voltage is that is must be less
than the VF of the LED. The ED article is just plain BS!

...Jim Thompson

At least they're consistent...a BS explanation for a BS circuit! Purrrfect!
I can't even get the simulation to work :-(

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 13:17:31 -0800, "Baphomet" <no.spam@no.spam.us>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:l5tgvv05p95uiq2eavm03vdj22tltouum4@4ax.com...
[snip]
BTW, the *only* restraint on battery voltage is that is must be less
than the VF of the LED. The ED article is just plain BS!

...Jim Thompson

At least they're consistent...a BS explanation for a BS circuit! Purrrfect!
I can't even get the simulation to work :-(

Make sure you have some resistance in the inductor. Depending on
simulator, you may need an initial-condition statement.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Frank Bemelman]

"Baphomet" <no.spam@no.spam.us> schreef in bericht
news:vvh0ngqgoejp39@corp.supernews.com...

At least they're consistent...a BS explanation for a BS circuit!
Purrrfect!
I can't even get the simulation to work :-(

It simulates fine here. Start with 0V from the battery. I don't
find it a bad circuit, considering the low part count etc.

The average current through the LED isn't that bad either, given
the duty-cycle.


--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

 

[Tim Williams]

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
newsVNGj0DY0H+$EwEJ@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

Like to see you try that with toobs!! ;-P

I don't find it any problem with this EF76 I have here.

Or an RK5744 or 5703.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms