Using an indicator lamp with 120v

[Peter Bennett]

On 13 Dec 2004 13:10:02 -0800, "Bill Bowden" <wrongaddress@att.net>
wrote:

If you use a neon indicator in parallel with the switch
(from one side to the other), it will light when the
switch is off and there is something plugged into the
outlet which is turned on. The neon indicator bulb should
have a 100K resistor in series for 120VAC operation.
Some are built in, others are not.

-Bill

The traditional 120V neon pilot assembly is apparently obsolete - the
stores group at work used to stock them, but last time I bought one, I
was surprised to find that it contained an LED! for pilot light use,
the LED version works as a direct replacement for the original neon
part, but someone depending on the neon characteristic could be in for
a rude surprise.

(This change was particularly surprising, as my boss and I are
supposed to be consulted for any changes to part numbers or suppliers,
and neither of us new of the change.)


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

 

[petrus bitbyter]

"kevreh" <kevin2@rehbeins.com> schreef in bericht
news:1102970028.436157.8050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I want a simple on/off indicator for a switch that's controlling an
outlet. It sounds like a neon indicator lamp is the way to go. What I'm
wondering is if the amps pulled by whatever I have plugged in could fry
the bulb. Or do they have a resistor built in to the lamps to protect
against this? If not, should I include something?

Also, should the lamp be wired in series or parallel FROM the switch?
Btw, would using an LED be more hassle (wiring)?


Thanks!
Kevin

Kevin,

Your questions show an extreme lack of knowledge and experience. So to stay
on the safe side do not work directly on the mains outlet of your house. Use
a plug and a cable to connect your signaling outlet to the wall outlet.
Build your lanp, switch and outlet close together and make sure nobody can
touch the live wire when you put your plug into the wall outlet. As for the
switch, lamp and outlet: lamp and outlet parallel, switch in series with
them. If you need the lamp for signaling only, buy a neon type with a build
in resistor meant for your local mains voltage. Does not matter how you
connect it to the outlet. Once more, be carefull. Live wire is killing.

petrus bitbyter


---
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[Robert Monsen]

kevreh wrote:

"John G" <Greentest@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:4zovd.4$6f4.527@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...

"kevreh" <kevin2@rehbeins.com> wrote in message
news:1102975688.468001.95050@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Are you sure? I was planning on taking the hot FROM the switch to one
lead of the lamp and a neutral lead that supplies the outlet to the
other lead of the lamp. My terminoligy isn't all that great so some of
what I'm saying may be misleading )


And if your terminology is bad your understanding of electricity is even
worse.


Not so sure about that. I understand and respect electricity, just a bit
fuzzy on the right words to describe the concept I'm trying to explain.


Much of the advice given above, though technically correct, could lead a
novice such as yourself to your DEATH.


This is intimidating but not helpfull, especially for a forum about basic
electronics. Am I supposed to give up on this project? Why don't you share
your insight on the SAFE way to proceed raise the bar on the quality of this
discussion.


I never cease to be worried about the technical and complicated answers
given on some of these Electrical news groups to absolute novices who are
way out of their depth in what they are attempting.


Again, the group is titled "BASIC"

Actually, the number of electrocutions in the US each year is incredibly
small. Only 140 contractors who work with electricity on a daily basis
(many of whom don't really understand it, above "don't touch that") were
killed by it last year.

It's patronizing for me to say it, and I'm sure you are quite careful,
but remember to keep one hand in your pocket when you are working on
powerline AC.

If you do that, the worst that will probably happen if you get careless
is you'll get your hand burned.

It is probably more likely that an old hand will get zapped, due to
becoming complacent.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[kevreh]

I regret ever posting my question here. The feedback I've gotten has reduced
me to someone who doesn't know anything about electronics- which is far from
the truth.

I'll find my answers elsewhere, as there are many other forums out there
that aren't as antagonistic towards someone. Most forums run on the mantra
of "there's no dumb questions", however this one seems to thrive on telling
people how ignorant they are.

Take care-
Kevin


"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:iQsvd.95151$lN.58575@amsnews05.chello.com...

"kevreh" <kevin2@rehbeins.com> schreef in bericht
news:1102970028.436157.8050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I want a simple on/off indicator for a switch that's controlling an
outlet. It sounds like a neon indicator lamp is the way to go. What I'm
wondering is if the amps pulled by whatever I have plugged in could fry
the bulb. Or do they have a resistor built in to the lamps to protect
against this? If not, should I include something?

Also, should the lamp be wired in series or parallel FROM the switch?
Btw, would using an LED be more hassle (wiring)?


Thanks!
Kevin


Kevin,

Your questions show an extreme lack of knowledge and experience. So to
stay on the safe side do not work directly on the mains outlet of your
house. Use a plug and a cable to connect your signaling outlet to the wall
outlet. Build your lanp, switch and outlet close together and make sure
nobody can touch the live wire when you put your plug into the wall
outlet. As for the switch, lamp and outlet: lamp and outlet parallel,
switch in series with them. If you need the lamp for signaling only, buy a
neon type with a build in resistor meant for your local mains voltage.
Does not matter how you connect it to the outlet. Once more, be carefull.
Live wire is killing.

petrus bitbyter


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26-11-2004

 

[Clarence]

"kevreh" <kevin2@REMOVEMErehbeins.com> wrote in message
news:mXFvd.6734$7p.4603@lakeread02...

I regret ever posting my question here. The feedback I've gotten has reduced
me to someone who doesn't know anything about electronics- which is far from
the truth.

I'll find my answers elsewhere, as there are many other forums out there
that aren't as antagonistic towards someone. Most forums run on the mantra
of "there's no dumb questions", however this one seems to thrive on telling
people how ignorant they are.

Take care-
Kevin

You just have had some bad luck to encounter a couple of jerks who delight in
asserting them selves to make them feel like they really are somebody.

Not everyone here is like them....

 

[petrus bitbyter]

"kevreh" <kevin2@REMOVEMErehbeins.com> schreef in bericht
news:mXFvd.6734$7p.4603@lakeread02...

"petrus bitbyter" <p.kralt@reducespamforchello.nl> wrote in message
news:iQsvd.95151$lN.58575@amsnews05.chello.com...

"kevreh" <kevin2@rehbeins.com> schreef in bericht
news:1102970028.436157.8050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I want a simple on/off indicator for a switch that's controlling an
outlet. It sounds like a neon indicator lamp is the way to go. What I'm
wondering is if the amps pulled by whatever I have plugged in could fry
the bulb. Or do they have a resistor built in to the lamps to protect
against this? If not, should I include something?

Also, should the lamp be wired in series or parallel FROM the switch?
Btw, would using an LED be more hassle (wiring)?


Thanks!
Kevin


Kevin,

Your questions show an extreme lack of knowledge and experience. So to
stay on the safe side do not work directly on the mains outlet of your
house. Use a plug and a cable to connect your signaling outlet to the
wall outlet. Build your lanp, switch and outlet close together and make
sure nobody can touch the live wire when you put your plug into the wall
outlet. As for the switch, lamp and outlet: lamp and outlet parallel,
switch in series with them. If you need the lamp for signaling only, buy
a neon type with a build in resistor meant for your local mains voltage.
Does not matter how you connect it to the outlet. Once more, be carefull.
Live wire is killing.

petrus bitbyter


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26-11-2004

I regret ever posting my question here. The feedback I've gotten has
reduced me to someone who doesn't know anything about electronics- which is
far from the truth.

I'll find my answers elsewhere, as there are many other forums out there
that aren't as antagonistic towards someone. Most forums run on the mantra
of "there's no dumb questions", however this one seems to thrive on
telling people how ignorant they are.

Take care-
Kevin

Kevin,

Your questions had hardly to do with electronics. Just some basic
electricity. The questions you posted made me deduce that you have little
knowledge or experience. Your reactions only confirm. No one blames you for
the questions and you also got answers. If you get some better answers
elsewhere, please let us know. Most of us are still willing to learn. No
reason to become angry because we urge you to be carefull.

petrus bitbyter



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26-11-2004

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:05:02 -0500, kevreh wrote:

I regret ever posting my question here. The feedback I've gotten has reduced
me to someone who doesn't know anything about electronics- which is far from
the truth.

I'll find my answers elsewhere, as there are many other forums out there
that aren't as antagonistic towards someone. Most forums run on the mantra
of "there's no dumb questions", however this one seems to thrive on telling
people how ignorant they are.

Actually, it's you who copped a 'tude. You got at least four good answers,
and immediately started questioning them, as if you either thought you
already had a better answer, or were not grasping the concepts presented.
At that point, people started suggesting background material, which seems
to have pressed your hotbutton.

If you have no interest in making any effort on your own part to figure
out how to apply the answers you get even in a basics group, then you will
probably not be missed too terribly.

Good Luck,
Rich

 

[kevreh]

I wasn't so much questioning as clarifying. Nothing wrong with that if
I wasn't grasping the concepts.

I know my questions probably weren't worded the best.... I understand
that it would be more helpful and less confusing if I spoke with the
correct terminology (I was hoping a group like this would help). Due to
my less than ideal wording I think some people have made assumptions
about my electrical know how. I have a firm grasp on the basics (ohms
law, serial vs parallel, 120 vs 240, types of switches, what
resistors/capacitors/diodes do, how to work safely around electricity,
etc...)....I'm just looking to learn more.

Its' too bad this thread had to degrade, sorry, if its' not to late to
get it back on track can someone clarify the following:

Comment: Bill said: "The neon indicator bulb should have a 100K
resistor in series for 120VAC operation. Some are built in, others are
not." John said: "it's to keep the current which is making the lamp
light up from getting large enough to hurt
the lamp."...
Question: Is the resistor to protect the bulb from voltage spikes by
the device(s) plugged into the outlet?

 

[John G]

"kevreh" <kevin2@rehbeins.com> wrote in message
news:1103064101.530223.191410@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I wasn't so much questioning as clarifying. Nothing wrong with that if
I wasn't grasping the concepts.

I know my questions probably weren't worded the best.... I understand
that it would be more helpful and less confusing if I spoke with the
correct terminology (I was hoping a group like this would help). Due
to
my less than ideal wording I think some people have made assumptions
about my electrical know how. I have a firm grasp on the basics (ohms
law, serial vs parallel, 120 vs 240, types of switches, what
resistors/capacitors/diodes do, how to work safely around electricity,
etc...)....I'm just looking to learn more.

Its' too bad this thread had to degrade, sorry, if its' not to late to
get it back on track can someone clarify the following:

Comment: Bill said: "The neon indicator bulb should have a 100K
resistor in series for 120VAC operation. Some are built in, others are
not." John said: "it's to keep the current which is making the lamp
light up from getting large enough to hurt
the lamp."...
Question: Is the resistor to protect the bulb from voltage spikes by
the device(s) plugged into the outlet?

No. the resistor is to limit the normal current thru the lamp.

A NEON lamp will not conduct at all until some strike voltage is reached
and then it has a very small resistance and will destroy itself. The
resistor is to limit this current to a safe level whilst allowing
enough current to see the light.
The strike voltage is generally something above 60 volts. The running
current with 110 volts and 100k resistor is about 1mA (Yes it is
probably more complicated than just I = E/R but that is near enough for
this example.)

LEDs also need a resistor to limit the current but their voltage is much
lower and are not great for 110 volts without another diode in reverse
to drop the voltage when it reverses. NEONs conduct both directions. And
the drop in the resistor and hence the wasted power(heat) is greater.
--
John G

Wot's Your Real Problem?

 

[Dbowey]

kevreh posted, in part:

<< Is the resistor to protect the bulb from voltage spikes by the device(s)
plugged into the outlet?
No! It is to limit the current through the bulb. As I recall, the NE2 type
bulb fires at about 60VAC. I took a quick look via Google, for a spec sheet
and found some info here:

<A HREF="http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/b.pl/ne2-usa.html">#NE2-USA - bulb
lamp - bulbs lamps</A>

The table lists the operating voltage range for both AC and DC operation.
Since you have a grasp of Ohm's Law, you can verify the suggested resistor
value.

Don

 

[John Fields]

On 14 Dec 2004 14:41:41 -0800, "kevreh" &lt;kevin2@rehbeins.com&gt; wrote:

I wasn't so much questioning as clarifying. Nothing wrong with that if
I wasn't grasping the concepts.

I know my questions probably weren't worded the best.... I understand
that it would be more helpful and less confusing if I spoke with the
correct terminology (I was hoping a group like this would help). Due to
my less than ideal wording I think some people have made assumptions
about my electrical know how. I have a firm grasp on the basics (ohms
law, serial vs parallel, 120 vs 240, types of switches, what
resistors/capacitors/diodes do, how to work safely around electricity,
etc...)....I'm just looking to learn more.

Its' too bad this thread had to degrade, sorry, if its' not to late to
get it back on track can someone clarify the following:

Comment: Bill said: "The neon indicator bulb should have a 100K
resistor in series for 120VAC operation. Some are built in, others are
not." John said: "it's to keep the current which is making the lamp
light up from getting large enough to hurt
the lamp."...
Question: Is the resistor to protect the bulb from voltage spikes by
the device(s) plugged into the outlet?

---
No, the resistor is there because when the gas in the lamp ionizes at
somewhere between about 90 to 140 volts, the resistance of the lamp
goes from essentially an open circuit to a fairly low value which,
without the series resistor will seriously shorten the lifetime of the
lamp by allowing currents large enough to flow through the lamp to
damage it.

Check:

http://www.gilway.com/pdf/appl-neonlamps.pdf


Using a fixed-pitch font like Courier to view the following, if you
have a neutral wire coming into the switchbox and you want to locate
the lamp in the same box with the switch, you'll need to hook it up
like this:


SWITCHBOX
+----------------------+
| |
ACHOT&gt;--------------------&gt; | |
| | |
| O |
| | |
ACNEUT&gt;-----[LAMP]--[220K]--+ |
| | |
+-------------------|--+
|
|
ACNEUT&gt;---------[LOAD]------+



However, if your switchbox has no neutral wire in it, then you won't
be able to put the lamp in the same switchbox with the switch and
you'll either have to put it in parallel with the load or find another
neutral wire somewhere else, like this:


SWITCHBOX
+-------+
| |
ACHOT&gt;--------------------&gt; | |
| | |
| O |
+----|--+
|
|
ACNEUT&gt;---------[LOAD]------+
|
|
ACNEUT&gt;-----[LAMP]--[220K]--+


Again, if you don't understand what you're getting into you could kill
yourself, so if you do, don't come back complaining that you weren't
warned!^)


--
John Fields

 

[Rich Grise]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:41:41 -0800, kevreh wrote:

I wasn't so much questioning as clarifying. Nothing wrong with that if
I wasn't grasping the concepts.

I know my questions probably weren't worded the best.... I understand
that it would be more helpful and less confusing if I spoke with the
correct terminology (I was hoping a group like this would help). Due to
my less than ideal wording I think some people have made assumptions
about my electrical know how. I have a firm grasp on the basics (ohms
law, serial vs parallel, 120 vs 240, types of switches, what
resistors/capacitors/diodes do, how to work safely around electricity,
etc...)....I'm just looking to learn more.

Your claim that you have a "firm grasp on the basics" with your list of
buzzwords is shown to be simply not true based on your question itself.

There is no shame in not knowing. We were all there once. Admitting that
you do not know is the first stage of wisdom.

And now, John G, Dbowey, and John Fields have all given you excellent
answers. I could have done as well, but these other fellows are obviously
orders of magnitude less lazy than I am.

Welcome to the asylum!
Rich

 

[John G]

"kevreh" &lt;kevin2@REMOVEMErehbeins.com&gt; wrote in message
news:7_Mvd.7196$7p.1225@lakeread02...

Ok, this is all very good info and more than enough to accomplish what
I set out to do (a light to indicate power when a switch is on). I'm
still surprised that the amperage doesn't come into play.... Thanks
everyone for the clarification.

Kevin
Again not wanting to offend you Kevin.

If I was a prosecutor I would have to say "I rest my case Your Honour."

In a parallel circuit as we have described here.
There is no relation between the current in the lamp and the current in
the load until the current in the load is so high that it starts to
affect and drag down the source, whatever it might be.
If the supply is the 120 volt network that will take a very big load or
blow the supply fuse at maybe 10 or 20 amps which should occur before
the voltage falls noticeably.

This is all simple Ohms Law stuff.
--
John G

Wot's Your Real Problem?