Using an FPGA to drive the 80386 CPU on a real motherboard

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 8:48 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:46:51 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/6/2016 4:38 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 3:07:55 PM UTC-4, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote:
Also, why are you doing this? Is this a hobby? Work related? Starting a
new bussiness? Want to design and implement a NSA-proof PC?

To be honest, I am a Christian, and I want to use the talents I was gifted
with and give the fruit of my labor back to God, and to my fellow man (and
not a pursuit of money, or proprietary IP, or patents, or other such things,
but rather an expression of love basically in giving back).

How would this accomplish that, the benefit to God or man?

Well, it's difficult to describe to many people. To date, only a small
handful have seen any value in the idea whatsoever ... but, some do see
the value and I am one of them.

It comes down to our fundamental reason for being alive in this world.
Am I a self-made man with all of my abilities being my abilities? Or do
I acknowledge that I was gifted with those abilities by God, and then do
I hold God in that place in my life ahead of all things?

I am not rich. I am not strong. I am not many things. What I am though
He has gifted me with. I happen to have an interest in these areas and,
despite not having a formal education, have discovered over time that
these things just make sense to me and I'm able to maneuver in them with
little difficulty. They are also a great interest to me.

So, I refocus the purposes of my life from within that knowledge and
understanding: I was created by God. God had a purpose in creating me.
I desire to do these things in my life, so I will do them for God. And
if God has another purpose for me in my life, then as I am walking on
this path, He will put up obstacles and roadblocks to move me from this
direction to some other direction, which is the one He truly wanted me
to be on.

So long as I'm moving, and doing so for Him, I'm walking as I should.
And for me, it's in this industry (hardware, and software). But for
others walking similarly in their line of work, it would be in whatever
they do, using whatever skills they possess.

-----
It's an endeavor I've been working on since July 12, 2012, when I had
instead started heading down a path of doing what I'm doing now on
this project, except for GNU and the FSF. However, just before I began,
I found out some things about Richard Stallman that were very disturbing
to me, and I resolved within myself that I could not work for that
entity, contributing to its growth or prosperity because its very
foundations were wrought of a man whose viewpoints on several things are
not only against God, but against most people's assessment of what is
true right and true wrong.

So, instead of the Free Software Foundation, I created the Liberty
Software Foundation, and dedicated all of my work to honoring God. I
have given the labor I possess on these projects away, so that others
might benefit from them. I have done my best on this project, and not
many others have seen benefit in my work, and I've observed a similar
reaction to my efforts as I see here, where people initially are very
interested in helping, but once they see any kind of an association with
God, or doing work for God, there is a recoil, and a pulling away. Of
course it makes me sad because I desire to create these hardware and
software products, and I desire to receive help from others, but I also
desire to do it in a way which gives God the credit (glory, honor, praise)
for what He first did in me, giving me the abilities to do any of these
things in the first place, and in all who participate as well.

In essence, my heart cries out to God in acknowledgement of who He is,
what He has done, and I recognize why we are here in our various short-
comings, ineptitudes, strengths, and abilities: to help one another.

We are here to compensate for one another's weaknesses, to be strong in
areas they're weak, and have others be strong in the areas we're weak.
And in these areas of hardware and software design, I would very much
like to have a part running at 4 GHz or faster, but I cannot do that
alone. My goals are more modest, though my hope remains that I will
not only have a part running at 4 GHz, but rather that God will shine
the light of knowledge and understanding in these areas of physics and
allow a part to be created which operates at 100 GHz or faster, and
does so on less power, less heat, etc.

I am confident in my relationship with God, and with who God is, so I
seek to do the things I do in my life for Him. I do this in my work, my
hardware and software pursuits, in my family relationships, in the
relationships I have/attempt with friends, etc. I make Him part of my
life, and explicitly the biggest part, and the part out front of the
things I do, and I do this because of who He is, who I am, and what He's
given me here in this world.

Bottom line: I am not a self-made man. I need His help, guidance, and
that of those around me. But I know that together, in acknowledgement
of Him, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.

Does anybody have an experience or advice in creating an FPGA-based CPU
that connects to a real hardware device and simulates the real device's
abilities?

Does simulation count?

Yes. Also in emulation, as by a real FPGA product, but one which does not
plug into a socket, but is its own entire creation. Here's an Aleksander
who created a 486 SX CPU (it has not integrated FPU):

https://github.com/alfikpl/ao486

My goals are part of a project I'm working on called LibSF 386-x40, which
is a 40-bit extension to the 80386, and 32-bit ARM. I use a WEX register
model which extends the 32-bit registers to 40-bit registers:

https://github.com/RickCHodgin/libsf/blob/master/li386/li386-documentation/images/wex_register_mapping.png

However, in the past couple weeks I've had the idea of a pointer selector,
which operates like a segment selector, but on a specific pointer register.
When enabled, it loads an extra 8-bits into the segment register associated
with specific register, such that it then is able to reference a 4GB window
of memory within the 1 TB address space:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch/bcpb03mL0o0/xUBzCXDmBgAJ

These are all part of long-term plans. I'd like to have my first CPU being
shipped to a fab for real manufacturing by July 12, 2022, which I expect to
be around a 90 MHz part.

So in 2022 this will rival the $5 ARM MCU devices currently available?

The part I have planned today won't. But if more people come together,
we can together create something that will exceed it. It just takes the
willingness from within to work together, and the guidance of God guiding
our hearts and minds in the right direction, for He is truth, and this
universe is His creation. If there is anyone who can guide us on the
direction we should go, it's Him. And I place my faith, hope, and trust
in Him because of who He is.

That being said, that doesn't mean I don't want to work with you on this
project. You have exhibited incredible kindness, and I have been moved
by it. I have these desires to pursue these hardware ends, and nothing
about that has changed. The only thing that's different now than it was
yesterday or the day before, is that now you know that I am desiring to
do this as an effort given over to God, in honoring Him with the fruits
of my life. I hope this won't be a stumbling block. I find your generosity
of spirit refreshing, and your knowledge and experience desirable assets
that you are willing to share so freely. It's made me happy actually.

Ok, so you are trying to do *something* of value to God, but you don't
know what value that is. If you want to get help from people, you need
to explain to them how it will be a good thing in ways they can
understand. You can't explain it and you need the help of others to
make it happen. I think you are screwed.

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 11:54 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:46:51 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/6/2016 4:38 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
To be honest, I am a Christian, and I want to use the talents I was gifted
with and give the fruit of my labor back to God, and to my fellow man (and
not a pursuit of money, or proprietary IP, or patents, or other such things,
but rather an expression of love basically in giving back).

How would this accomplish that, the benefit to God or man?

Even shorter:

We are here because God made us and put us here in this universe He
made. We are here to love one another, and be part of a family of
man, loving our neighbor as ourself, and serving God in all we do.

I can do all that without making an obsolete 386 CPU clone for $100,000.

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 8:56 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:08:16 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/6/2016 4:38 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 3:07:55 PM UTC-4, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote:

Also, why are you doing this? Is this a hobby? Work related? Starting a
new bussiness? Want to design and implement a NSA-proof PC?

To be honest, I am a Christian, and I want to use the talents I was gifted
with and give the fruit of my labor back to God, and to my fellow man (and
not a pursuit of money, or proprietary IP, or patents, or other such things,
but rather an expression of love basically in giving back).

This jogged a memory of a joke I was told at work when I worked on an
IRAD project that was being graded by the government. The government
format for the write up had a few sections and two were the GOAL and the
PURPOSE. Everyone was confused about the difference in the two. So
Fred wrote his report and said his goal was to measure some parameter
and his purpose was to prove the parameter met some requirements. His
boss read his report and said, "No, your goal is to prove the parameter
met the requirements so what is your purpose?". He worked on it again
saying his purpose was to show the unit X would work in system Y. It
was reviewed by his second level boss who said, "No, your goal is to
prove unit X works in system Y, what is your purpose?"

This happened a couple more times until his report got through all the
reviewers and he presented his report to a meeting. He started out
saying... "My purpose is to get into heaven".

I read this earlier this morning, but I didn't understand it, and still
don't. What does it mean?

Hmmm... Fred was continually asked why he was doing the research and
each time he was told what he thought was his purpose (the reason for
doing the project) was really his goal (what he hoped to accomplish by
doing this, not the same thing really). So his abstraction continued to
be elevated until it reached his ultimate reason for doing anything...
to enter heaven... which really had nothing to do with the research
project in a meaningful way.

You seem to be making a connection between this project and God in a way
that no one else understands. I suspect that is because you are seeing
an irrational connection founded in an emotional context. If there was
a logical connection you would be able to explain it. So far the only
thing I get is that there is something you don't like about Richard
Stallman. Look him up on xkcd. That site is a hoot!

--

Rick

 

[Jon Elson]

rickman wrote:

Serial flash parts use extra board space and are a PITA to design in so
you can program on the board. The serial configuration of Xilinx parts
is also rather slow in comparison to the boot time of a internal flash
FPGA. I believe it is something like two orders of magnitude faster.
The Spartan 3AN is a bit of a joke in some respects, but if you are
using Xilinx parts I guess that is what you get. If it were a good
idea, why do they only do that on the 10 year old Spartan 3A line?

Well, the Spartan 3A is a very good price, if you don't need ultimate speed
or vast density. It seems to work very well in the relatively modest
projects I've been working on.

Jon

 

[Jon Elson]

Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On the other hand, you're given a house. Great. You have a house.
It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
of their heart built you a house. It's a gift, and the house will carry
with it that history. Every time you consider something about that house,
there will be that original offering given to you.

Well, that sounds like Habitat for Humanity. A good organization.
Maybe you will be CPUs for Humanity? But, wasn't that what the Raspberry Pi
was all about, initially? And, it is a LOT more computer than a '386, and
no slave labor involved in Linux.


As for making chips in your garage, besides the part about how difficult it
will be to get the yield above 0.000%, once the EPA or the neighbors find
out you are using Arsine, Phosphine and DiBorane in there, you will be doign
very well if you can keep yourself out of a jail cell. Especially if you
happen to be in California.

Jon

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 3:24 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:04:43 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/7/2016 8:52 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:59:10 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/6/2016 11:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Rick C. Hodgin wrote:



I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early samples,
OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts. So, that's $40K each
revision. Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
respins of the part to get anything working.
with an anticipated 50 to 100 CPU minimum, but that if I am able to create
the industry I'm hoping to create (people who are willing to buy CPUs that
are wrought of love, more than high-speed bells and whistles, looking to
them as a utility to augment man's existence, rather than as a whizz bang
eye candy newest fad ("gotta have the $12K iPhone 6 because my $10K iPhone
5 is just so last year") kind of thing).

Uhhh, I can imagine there will be at LEAST 5 customers for this. How many
shirts do you have? Because you are certainly going to lose your shirt on
this project!

I think Rick H doesn't understand that electronics works exactly the way
it does because it allows the industry to provide $25 cell phones to
those who *need* them rather than the $400 latest eye candy phones to
those who want them. (I don't know of any $12,000 phones) In some ways
the $400 phones subsidize the cheap phones, but not in a serious way.
The expensive phones just drive the "bleeding edge" market since that
always costs more initially. Then once the high initial costs are
amortized, the rest of us get the benefit of the technology at the
sustained product rate.

Producing a CPU chip with no real market in an antique technology will
not help anyone, man or God.

This project *is* starting to sound familiar now.

I recognize that the industry today works a particular way, and that it
has established itself in a particular manner. However, I also recognize
that there are alternate ways of doing things, and that were we to regroup
around a focused and purposed relationship with God (one-on-one, each of
us, to Him, and then to one another), then He would be guiding the entire
operation by His sight, which is to be able to orchestrate people world-
wide toward the goals we're pursuing in this world which are given over to
Him.

The Bible states that whatever we do in word or in deed, we should do all
for the glory of God the Father in Heaven. We are also told in the Lord's
Prayer that His will should be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

That means we, as people, individually and collectively, must acknowledge
Him as He is while we are here in this world going about our daily affairs.
He can make us prosper in helping one another, in being the strength in
other people's weaknesses, in giving of our gifts, and in love and charity
with our labor.

It's a different way of looking at things, but it's the one I am committed
to, and to the best of my knowledge, it's the one which is correct as per
the guidance God's given us to be one to another here in this world: Each
of us operating in love for one another, loving one's neighbor even as our
own self.

Ok, but I don't understand how working with the obsolete 386 CPU design
has anything to do with God. What is your goal that is related to God?
Why does working with this chip relate to God any more than working
with a $5 ARM chip?

It has to do with beginning with an offering that is based on this
ongoing personal offering to God.

Think of it this way: You're given a house. Great. You have a house.
But you find out that the house was built by slave labor, or there were
people killed in the house during its construction, etc. The house
carries with it that history, and no matter what you do in terms of
paint and wallpaper, the house has that history, and it does affect
things with regards to it.

On the other hand, you're given a house. Great. You have a house.
It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
of their heart built you a house. It's a gift, and the house will carry
with it that history. Every time you consider something about that house,
there will be that original offering given to you.

When I go buy a $5 ARM CPU, or a $100 ARM device, what am I buying? I
don't know? I hear all kinds stories about Chinese workers being
exploited in the manufacturing of this thing, the assembly of it, etc.

I don't want to be a part of that industry. I want to create from the
ground up an industry that has the purpose of giving to people from their
talents, their skills, with that being the foundation of everything done
on the project. I want it to be the origination that goes along with the
hardware and software.

I don't particular want to have ONLY an obsolete 80386 clone. As you can
seem from the designs I've made, I've upgraded it to 40-bits, and to more
than the standard eight registers, etc. I've also included not only an
80386 ISA, but also an ARM-32 ISA, which will also be extended to 40-bits.
And I have my own personal ISA in there as well.

So by including the ARM ISA, aren't you back to the problem you are
trying to get away from? That house was built with slave labor I
thought??? Even the 386 was designed with slave labor according to your
thinking, no?

On top of that, I have my own kernel, my own operating system, my own
assemblers, compilers, developer tools, all of which can be designed to
create our own apps, etc.

It is the foundation of knowledge given unto me by God, that I acknowledge
as coming from Him, and I desire to build from the ground up all of these
things in giving back to Him from that which He first gave me.

Make sense?

No, you are still using house designs that were designed with slave
labor. If you want to do something for God, you should design your own
and forget the 386, the ARM and even the FPGA for that matter. Heck how
are you going to get PCBs made that aren't related to the same slave
labor you want to eschew?

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 3:31 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:11:16 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/7/2016 8:48 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:46:51 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/6/2016 4:38 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 3:07:55 PM UTC-4, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote:
Also, why are you doing this? Is this a hobby? Work related? Starting a
new bussiness? Want to design and implement a NSA-proof PC?

To be honest, I am a Christian, and I want to use the talents I was gifted
with and give the fruit of my labor back to God, and to my fellow man (and
not a pursuit of money, or proprietary IP, or patents, or other such things,
but rather an expression of love basically in giving back).

How would this accomplish that, the benefit to God or man?

Well, it's difficult to describe to many people. To date, only a small
handful have seen any value in the idea whatsoever ... but, some do see
the value and I am one of them.

It comes down to our fundamental reason for being alive in this world.
Am I a self-made man with all of my abilities being my abilities? Or do
I acknowledge that I was gifted with those abilities by God, and then do
I hold God in that place in my life ahead of all things?

I am not rich. I am not strong. I am not many things. What I am though
He has gifted me with. I happen to have an interest in these areas and,
despite not having a formal education, have discovered over time that
these things just make sense to me and I'm able to maneuver in them with
little difficulty. They are also a great interest to me.

So, I refocus the purposes of my life from within that knowledge and
understanding: I was created by God. God had a purpose in creating me.
I desire to do these things in my life, so I will do them for God. And
if God has another purpose for me in my life, then as I am walking on
this path, He will put up obstacles and roadblocks to move me from this
direction to some other direction, which is the one He truly wanted me
to be on.

So long as I'm moving, and doing so for Him, I'm walking as I should.
And for me, it's in this industry (hardware, and software). But for
others walking similarly in their line of work, it would be in whatever
they do, using whatever skills they possess.

-----
It's an endeavor I've been working on since July 12, 2012, when I had
instead started heading down a path of doing what I'm doing now on
this project, except for GNU and the FSF. However, just before I began,
I found out some things about Richard Stallman that were very disturbing
to me, and I resolved within myself that I could not work for that
entity, contributing to its growth or prosperity because its very
foundations were wrought of a man whose viewpoints on several things are
not only against God, but against most people's assessment of what is
true right and true wrong.

So, instead of the Free Software Foundation, I created the Liberty
Software Foundation, and dedicated all of my work to honoring God. I
have given the labor I possess on these projects away, so that others
might benefit from them. I have done my best on this project, and not
many others have seen benefit in my work, and I've observed a similar
reaction to my efforts as I see here, where people initially are very
interested in helping, but once they see any kind of an association with
God, or doing work for God, there is a recoil, and a pulling away. Of
course it makes me sad because I desire to create these hardware and
software products, and I desire to receive help from others, but I also
desire to do it in a way which gives God the credit (glory, honor, praise)
for what He first did in me, giving me the abilities to do any of these
things in the first place, and in all who participate as well.

In essence, my heart cries out to God in acknowledgement of who He is,
what He has done, and I recognize why we are here in our various short-
comings, ineptitudes, strengths, and abilities: to help one another.

We are here to compensate for one another's weaknesses, to be strong in
areas they're weak, and have others be strong in the areas we're weak.
And in these areas of hardware and software design, I would very much
like to have a part running at 4 GHz or faster, but I cannot do that
alone. My goals are more modest, though my hope remains that I will
not only have a part running at 4 GHz, but rather that God will shine
the light of knowledge and understanding in these areas of physics and
allow a part to be created which operates at 100 GHz or faster, and
does so on less power, less heat, etc.

I am confident in my relationship with God, and with who God is, so I
seek to do the things I do in my life for Him. I do this in my work, my
hardware and software pursuits, in my family relationships, in the
relationships I have/attempt with friends, etc. I make Him part of my
life, and explicitly the biggest part, and the part out front of the
things I do, and I do this because of who He is, who I am, and what He's
given me here in this world.

Bottom line: I am not a self-made man. I need His help, guidance, and
that of those around me. But I know that together, in acknowledgement
of Him, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.

Does anybody have an experience or advice in creating an FPGA-based CPU
that connects to a real hardware device and simulates the real device's
abilities?

Does simulation count?

Yes. Also in emulation, as by a real FPGA product, but one which does not
plug into a socket, but is its own entire creation. Here's an Aleksander
who created a 486 SX CPU (it has not integrated FPU):

https://github.com/alfikpl/ao486

My goals are part of a project I'm working on called LibSF 386-x40, which
is a 40-bit extension to the 80386, and 32-bit ARM. I use a WEX register
model which extends the 32-bit registers to 40-bit registers:

https://github.com/RickCHodgin/libsf/blob/master/li386/li386-documentation/images/wex_register_mapping.png

However, in the past couple weeks I've had the idea of a pointer selector,
which operates like a segment selector, but on a specific pointer register.
When enabled, it loads an extra 8-bits into the segment register associated
with specific register, such that it then is able to reference a 4GB window
of memory within the 1 TB address space:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.arch/bcpb03mL0o0/xUBzCXDmBgAJ

These are all part of long-term plans. I'd like to have my first CPU being
shipped to a fab for real manufacturing by July 12, 2022, which I expect to
be around a 90 MHz part.

So in 2022 this will rival the $5 ARM MCU devices currently available?

The part I have planned today won't. But if more people come together,
we can together create something that will exceed it. It just takes the
willingness from within to work together, and the guidance of God guiding
our hearts and minds in the right direction, for He is truth, and this
universe is His creation. If there is anyone who can guide us on the
direction we should go, it's Him. And I place my faith, hope, and trust
in Him because of who He is.

That being said, that doesn't mean I don't want to work with you on this
project. You have exhibited incredible kindness, and I have been moved
by it. I have these desires to pursue these hardware ends, and nothing
about that has changed. The only thing that's different now than it was
yesterday or the day before, is that now you know that I am desiring to
do this as an effort given over to God, in honoring Him with the fruits
of my life. I hope this won't be a stumbling block. I find your generosity
of spirit refreshing, and your knowledge and experience desirable assets
that you are willing to share so freely. It's made me happy actually.

Ok, so you are trying to do *something* of value to God, but you don't
know what value that is. If you want to get help from people, you need
to explain to them how it will be a good thing in ways they can
understand. You can't explain it and you need the help of others to
make it happen. I think you are screwed.

My explanation is given. It's inherent in the work, and in the various
pages associated with my work, but more than that it comes from His Holy
Spirit living inside of me.

The explanation I give probably won't make much sense to anyone who is
not born again, or in pursuit of truth with their life. If they place
no value on these things I'm outlining here, then it won't mean anything.
The value to them would come from a $5 multi-GHz part, and not from a
foundation given over to God.

But for the born again believer, that foundation given over to God is a
real thing, and the believer desires to do everything in his/her life to
please God, and to bring honor and glory to His name.

It's not a hobby. It's not a membership in a church roster. It's an
inner and fundamental change of the person's makeup and nature. And from
within that inner change comes these outward expressions of that change,
such that the desire to serve God in all areas is manifested.

For me, that means hardware and software. For the farmer, that means in
using organic seeds. For the bricklayer, it means something else, etc.

Each of us decides why we do the things we do, and then we do them for
those reasons. For me, it is because God has saved me, and gifted me
with these talents and abilities, and I desire to serve Him with the
labor of my life, the ideas of my mind, and the creativity He's given
me.

I want my life to serve and honor Him, both inwardly, and outwardly, and
I want to encourage others also to be part of this living act of giving
back to Him that which He first gave us. And for those who are born
again, this will resonate as it is founded in scripture, but more
importantly, it's founded in the born again nature as by His Holy Spirit.

We are brothers and sisters, and we should be there for each other in
these ways, looking up to God, and looking out to one another, in that
order, in and for everything we do. It's how it will be in Heaven.
Forever.

You seem to think I don't understand your answer, but it's more of a
case of you not understanding the question.

--

Rick

 

[Jon Elson]

Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:40:35 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
Rick C. Hodgin wrote:



I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early
samples,
OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts. So, that's $40K each
revision. Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
respins of the part to get anything working.

I can't remember who it was I searched a while back (2014 I think), but
I found a company that was manufacturing on 250nm and 500nm process
technologies. The mask sets were $15K each, and each run varied, but
the total cost for 100 parts was less than $100K including masks.

That is quite amazing, and I find it VERY hard to believe that is in the US.
If going offshore, you may well end up with Chinese or Malaysian
practically-slave labor making the parts.

Well, it's not a goal. It's not being done for money. I would like to
have
assistance from those who are willing to give.

Yes, I got this part, but I think you are massively underestimating costs
that will be hard to push down. I make electronic stuff for some VERY niche
markets, and have some idea what various things cost to have done. Also,
since working with having some custom chips made, I have some idea of the
processes required, and the insane levels of clean room procedures, etc. to
make stuff work at all. There are truck-movable clean room packages that
you can buy, they roll it off the truck and slide it into your facility.
So, there are outfits that are making various semiconductor products in
house. I think a lot of them are diode laser manufacturers, however.

Jon

Jon

 

[David Brown]

On 07/04/16 21:31, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

My explanation is given. It's inherent in the work, and in the various
pages associated with my work, but more than that it comes from His Holy
Spirit living inside of me.

The explanation I give probably won't make much sense to anyone who is
not born again, or in pursuit of truth with their life. If they place
no value on these things I'm outlining here, then it won't mean anything.
The value to them would come from a $5 multi-GHz part, and not from a
foundation given over to God.

But for the born again believer, that foundation given over to God is a
real thing, and the believer desires to do everything in his/her life to
please God, and to bring honor and glory to His name.

In summary, it's the emperor's new clothes. For those that "understand"
the "truth", your explanation will all make sense - to everyone else
(including other Christians - both "born again" Christians and "born
once" Christians), it's total nonsense.

I can fully understand the idea of wanting to do something meaningful
with your life, using the skills that you have (or think you have). I
can fully understand a dislike of the kind of extreme capitalism and
amoral (and sometimes even immoral) practices of many large
corporations. I can even understand the point of some of your projects,
such as CAlive, even though I disagree with it technically, practically,
and philosophically. But I just cannot comprehend how you think a weird
extension to a badly designed and long outdated cpu architecture is of
any conceivable use to man or god, and trying to make it physically
compatible to ancient hardware is even crazier.


Of course, you are free to make your own choices here - just as I am
free to show you how they appear to others. And I'll still offer
technical advice to technical challenges when I am able - as long as you
are not harming anyone with your projects, and you are committed to
continuing them, then a little advice from people like me might help you
get on slightly faster.

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 3:42 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

rickman wrote:



Serial flash parts use extra board space and are a PITA to design in so
you can program on the board. The serial configuration of Xilinx parts
is also rather slow in comparison to the boot time of a internal flash
FPGA. I believe it is something like two orders of magnitude faster.
The Spartan 3AN is a bit of a joke in some respects, but if you are
using Xilinx parts I guess that is what you get. If it were a good
idea, why do they only do that on the 10 year old Spartan 3A line?

Well, the Spartan 3A is a very good price, if you don't need ultimate speed
or vast density. It seems to work very well in the relatively modest
projects I've been working on.

Not trying to argue, but I don't see how they are at a good price. You
can get many FPGAs at the same price range with *much* more capacity.
The AN parts seem to have a price premium of around 20% and the flash
parts from Lattice can be had a lower prices. Further, the AN flash
parts are available in a lot fewer packages and none of them very small.

A number of the Lattice parts can hold multiple configurations and
switch in just a very few milliseconds. This sort of thing takes 100's
of milliseconds in the Xilinx parts. That is the sort of difference you
get when the parts are designed with flash in mind. The program memory
in a Xilinx part is literally an afterthought.

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 4:12 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:56:14 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/7/2016 3:24 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:04:43 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/7/2016 8:52 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:59:10 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/6/2016 11:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Rick C. Hodgin wrote:



I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early samples,
OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts. So, that's $40K each
revision. Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
respins of the part to get anything working.
with an anticipated 50 to 100 CPU minimum, but that if I am able to create
the industry I'm hoping to create (people who are willing to buy CPUs that
are wrought of love, more than high-speed bells and whistles, looking to
them as a utility to augment man's existence, rather than as a whizz bang
eye candy newest fad ("gotta have the $12K iPhone 6 because my $10K iPhone
5 is just so last year") kind of thing).

Uhhh, I can imagine there will be at LEAST 5 customers for this. How many
shirts do you have? Because you are certainly going to lose your shirt on
this project!

I think Rick H doesn't understand that electronics works exactly the way
it does because it allows the industry to provide $25 cell phones to
those who *need* them rather than the $400 latest eye candy phones to
those who want them. (I don't know of any $12,000 phones) In some ways
the $400 phones subsidize the cheap phones, but not in a serious way.
The expensive phones just drive the "bleeding edge" market since that
always costs more initially. Then once the high initial costs are
amortized, the rest of us get the benefit of the technology at the
sustained product rate.

Producing a CPU chip with no real market in an antique technology will
not help anyone, man or God.

This project *is* starting to sound familiar now.

I recognize that the industry today works a particular way, and that it
has established itself in a particular manner. However, I also recognize
that there are alternate ways of doing things, and that were we to regroup
around a focused and purposed relationship with God (one-on-one, each of
us, to Him, and then to one another), then He would be guiding the entire
operation by His sight, which is to be able to orchestrate people world-
wide toward the goals we're pursuing in this world which are given over to
Him.

The Bible states that whatever we do in word or in deed, we should do all
for the glory of God the Father in Heaven. We are also told in the Lord's
Prayer that His will should be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

That means we, as people, individually and collectively, must acknowledge
Him as He is while we are here in this world going about our daily affairs.
He can make us prosper in helping one another, in being the strength in
other people's weaknesses, in giving of our gifts, and in love and charity
with our labor.

It's a different way of looking at things, but it's the one I am committed
to, and to the best of my knowledge, it's the one which is correct as per
the guidance God's given us to be one to another here in this world: Each
of us operating in love for one another, loving one's neighbor even as our
own self.

Ok, but I don't understand how working with the obsolete 386 CPU design
has anything to do with God. What is your goal that is related to God?
Why does working with this chip relate to God any more than working
with a $5 ARM chip?

It has to do with beginning with an offering that is based on this
ongoing personal offering to God.

Think of it this way: You're given a house. Great. You have a house.
But you find out that the house was built by slave labor, or there were
people killed in the house during its construction, etc. The house
carries with it that history, and no matter what you do in terms of
paint and wallpaper, the house has that history, and it does affect
things with regards to it.

On the other hand, you're given a house. Great. You have a house.
It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
of their heart built you a house. It's a gift, and the house will carry
with it that history. Every time you consider something about that house,
there will be that original offering given to you.

When I go buy a $5 ARM CPU, or a $100 ARM device, what am I buying? I
don't know? I hear all kinds stories about Chinese workers being
exploited in the manufacturing of this thing, the assembly of it, etc.

I don't want to be a part of that industry. I want to create from the
ground up an industry that has the purpose of giving to people from their
talents, their skills, with that being the foundation of everything done
on the project. I want it to be the origination that goes along with the
hardware and software.

I don't particular want to have ONLY an obsolete 80386 clone. As you can
seem from the designs I've made, I've upgraded it to 40-bits, and to more
than the standard eight registers, etc. I've also included not only an
80386 ISA, but also an ARM-32 ISA, which will also be extended to 40-bits.
And I have my own personal ISA in there as well.

So by including the ARM ISA, aren't you back to the problem you are
trying to get away from? That house was built with slave labor I
thought??? Even the 386 was designed with slave labor according to your
thinking, no?

I have people ask me this question regularly. I have no answer to give
that would make sense as people always try to push me back further into
creation, as you have done here ... "Well why don't you just start with
dirt and wood and rock and hay and build up from there. Surely if you
want to give something to God, you must start with the true fundamentals,"
or other such form of expression.

But those were *your* words, that you can't live in a house made with
slave labor, your metaphor. If a commercial MCU you can buy today is
not suitable because of its origins, how is any of this suitable? It's
all from the same commercial, not founded in love of god, basis. Why
reject one and not the other?

I have continued in the station I was in when I became a Christian in 2004.
I do not have conviction over my work, but I have great peace, in that I am
giving this labor over to Him, and to other people.

So far I haven't seen any sign God is involved. It seems to be all
about you.

On top of that, I have my own kernel, my own operating system, my own
assemblers, compilers, developer tools, all of which can be designed to
create our own apps, etc.

It is the foundation of knowledge given unto me by God, that I acknowledge
as coming from Him, and I desire to build from the ground up all of these
things in giving back to Him from that which He first gave me.

Make sense?

No, you are still using house designs that were designed with slave
labor. If you want to do something for God, you should design your own
and forget the 386, the ARM and even the FPGA for that matter. Heck how
are you going to get PCBs made that aren't related to the same slave
labor you want to eschew?

My goal is to create the entire industry, from design to manufacturing.
I would be perfectly content to have someone step forward with a fab
given over to that purpose. Until such a fab is created, which may only
come from me creating such a fab, I have to use what's there. But as I
have told many people, once I'm able to bootstrap these efforts, I will
do so, and never look back. The same is true with software, hardware,
and manufacturing.

Ok, I have money. Let's say I am happy to devote some of it to a fab
that will build a chip for the purposes of God. Why *this* chip? Why
an obsolete design with little redeeming qualities? What is the
justification of this design over all others?

But, we have to begin somewhere, and this is where I'm beginning... taking
what's here, and turning it around and giving it to God, desiring to build
the solid foundation upon an offering unto Him, and in all areas that are
involved. It's more than I can do alone, but I continue to pray that He
will send others, or that He will move me away from these endeavors and put
me at the place He would have me be, so that I am well within His will.

Ok, so you offer your design to Him. Will He then go out and have it
fabbed? Then what happens? Who will use a 15 year old computer design?
What value will it give to anyone other than you?

It's my desire: to serve Him, and in the capacity He's provided for me.
I am doing that to the best of my ability, and pray I continue to do so.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 4:17 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:57:30 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:40:35 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
Rick C. Hodgin wrote:



I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early
samples,
OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts. So, that's $40K each
revision. Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
respins of the part to get anything working.

I can't remember who it was I searched a while back (2014 I think), but
I found a company that was manufacturing on 250nm and 500nm process
technologies. The mask sets were $15K each, and each run varied, but
the total cost for 100 parts was less than $100K including masks.
That is quite amazing, and I find it VERY hard to believe that is in the US.
If going offshore, you may well end up with Chinese or Malaysian
practically-slave labor making the parts.

I can't remember who it was. I have an email. Most of the companies I
sought were unwilling to entertain a run of a single wafer. But a couple
of them pointed me to smaller firms which specialize in one-off wafers.
I contacted them asking for pricing of an approximately 200 mm^2 chip on
250nm to 500nm process technologies. That was the information I was
given. Nothing formal. No contracts or an examination of any type of
design. But, just a ball-park figure.

You don't need a wafer to get a chip. There are foundries that will
batch your design onto a shared wafer. You likely can't use a 500 nm
process, but you can get a decent process that will be inexpensive. I
recall the minimum price for a small chip would be in the low 10's of
thousands.

Well, it's not a goal. It's not being done for money. I would like to
have
assistance from those who are willing to give.
Yes, I got this part, but I think you are massively underestimating costs
that will be hard to push down. I make electronic stuff for some VERY niche
markets, and have some idea what various things cost to have done. Also,
since working with having some custom chips made, I have some idea of the
processes required, and the insane levels of clean room procedures, etc. to
make stuff work at all. There are truck-movable clean room packages that
you can buy, they roll it off the truck and slide it into your facility.
So, there are outfits that are making various semiconductor products in
house. I think a lot of them are diode laser manufacturers, however.

I have spent some time researching this industry, and the clean room
requirements of 3,000 to 10,000 nm process technologies are significantly
different than modern fabs' needs. But, I hear what you are saying, and
I appreciate the information. I have been content to produce products
which run in FPGA form on a little board which plugs in to my system,
though I ultimately would like to create a completely integrated system
with all components to have a fully functional real computer made atop
this protractive effort.

And, when I speak of these things, I always reference James 4:15, which
is about acknowledging that the Lord may have other plans for me, and if
so then I will follow Him.

Plans are great, but does He have funding?

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 4/7/2016 4:55 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 4:40:17 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/7/2016 4:12 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:56:14 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/7/2016 3:24 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 3:04:43 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/7/2016 8:52 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Thursday, April 7, 2016 at 2:59:10 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/6/2016 11:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Rick C. Hodgin wrote:



I figured the CPUs I'd make would cost $1,000 each in the early samples,
OK, the MOSIS standard order is for 40 parts. So, that's $40K each
revision. Unless you are truly brilliant, it is going to take a BUNCH of
respins of the part to get anything working.
with an anticipated 50 to 100 CPU minimum, but that if I am able to create
the industry I'm hoping to create (people who are willing to buy CPUs that
are wrought of love, more than high-speed bells and whistles, looking to
them as a utility to augment man's existence, rather than as a whizz bang
eye candy newest fad ("gotta have the $12K iPhone 6 because my $10K iPhone
5 is just so last year") kind of thing).

Uhhh, I can imagine there will be at LEAST 5 customers for this. How many
shirts do you have? Because you are certainly going to lose your shirt on
this project!

I think Rick H doesn't understand that electronics works exactly the way
it does because it allows the industry to provide $25 cell phones to
those who *need* them rather than the $400 latest eye candy phones to
those who want them. (I don't know of any $12,000 phones) In some ways
the $400 phones subsidize the cheap phones, but not in a serious way.
The expensive phones just drive the "bleeding edge" market since that
always costs more initially. Then once the high initial costs are
amortized, the rest of us get the benefit of the technology at the
sustained product rate.

Producing a CPU chip with no real market in an antique technology will
not help anyone, man or God.

This project *is* starting to sound familiar now.

I recognize that the industry today works a particular way, and that it
has established itself in a particular manner. However, I also recognize
that there are alternate ways of doing things, and that were we to regroup
around a focused and purposed relationship with God (one-on-one, each of
us, to Him, and then to one another), then He would be guiding the entire
operation by His sight, which is to be able to orchestrate people world-
wide toward the goals we're pursuing in this world which are given over to
Him.

The Bible states that whatever we do in word or in deed, we should do all
for the glory of God the Father in Heaven. We are also told in the Lord's
Prayer that His will should be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

That means we, as people, individually and collectively, must acknowledge
Him as He is while we are here in this world going about our daily affairs.
He can make us prosper in helping one another, in being the strength in
other people's weaknesses, in giving of our gifts, and in love and charity
with our labor.

It's a different way of looking at things, but it's the one I am committed
to, and to the best of my knowledge, it's the one which is correct as per
the guidance God's given us to be one to another here in this world: Each
of us operating in love for one another, loving one's neighbor even as our
own self.

Ok, but I don't understand how working with the obsolete 386 CPU design
has anything to do with God. What is your goal that is related to God?
Why does working with this chip relate to God any more than working
with a $5 ARM chip?

It has to do with beginning with an offering that is based on this
ongoing personal offering to God.

Think of it this way: You're given a house. Great. You have a house.
But you find out that the house was built by slave labor, or there were
people killed in the house during its construction, etc. The house
carries with it that history, and no matter what you do in terms of
paint and wallpaper, the house has that history, and it does affect
things with regards to it.

On the other hand, you're given a house. Great. You have a house.
It comes from volunteers who heard about your need, and out of the love
of their heart built you a house. It's a gift, and the house will carry
with it that history. Every time you consider something about that house,
there will be that original offering given to you.

When I go buy a $5 ARM CPU, or a $100 ARM device, what am I buying? I
don't know? I hear all kinds stories about Chinese workers being
exploited in the manufacturing of this thing, the assembly of it, etc.

I don't want to be a part of that industry. I want to create from the
ground up an industry that has the purpose of giving to people from their
talents, their skills, with that being the foundation of everything done
on the project. I want it to be the origination that goes along with the
hardware and software.

I don't particular want to have ONLY an obsolete 80386 clone. As you can
seem from the designs I've made, I've upgraded it to 40-bits, and to more
than the standard eight registers, etc. I've also included not only an
80386 ISA, but also an ARM-32 ISA, which will also be extended to 40-bits.
And I have my own personal ISA in there as well.

So by including the ARM ISA, aren't you back to the problem you are
trying to get away from? That house was built with slave labor I
thought??? Even the 386 was designed with slave labor according to your
thinking, no?

I have people ask me this question regularly. I have no answer to give
that would make sense as people always try to push me back further into
creation, as you have done here ... "Well why don't you just start with
dirt and wood and rock and hay and build up from there. Surely if you
want to give something to God, you must start with the true fundamentals,"
or other such form of expression.

But those were *your* words, that you can't live in a house made with
slave labor, your metaphor. If a commercial MCU you can buy today is
not suitable because of its origins, how is any of this suitable? It's
all from the same commercial, not founded in love of god, basis. Why
reject one and not the other?

I have no answer to give that would make sense to people as the people
who ask these questions are not in pursuit of the truth to begin with,
but are rather pointing fingers and making accusations to discredit me.
From within that very spirit they cannot understand my answer.

No one is trying to discredit you. I am trying to understand you. You
keep repeating that you can't explain what you are talking about.

But, here it is:

To describe it: When I was saved in 2004, I held every thing in my life
up to the Lord for scrutiny. I changed most everything about my life, but
some things remained because they survived that scrutiny. I didn't feel
convicted over them. This is one of them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "this".

I have continued in the station I was in when I became a Christian in 2004.
I do not have conviction over my work, but I have great peace, in that I am
giving this labor over to Him, and to other people.

So far I haven't seen any sign God is involved. It seems to be all
about you.

I don't know what to tell you, Rick.

That part is clear.

On top of that, I have my own kernel, my own operating system, my own
assemblers, compilers, developer tools, all of which can be designed to
create our own apps, etc.

It is the foundation of knowledge given unto me by God, that I acknowledge
as coming from Him, and I desire to build from the ground up all of these
things in giving back to Him from that which He first gave me.

Make sense?

No, you are still using house designs that were designed with slave
labor. If you want to do something for God, you should design your own
and forget the 386, the ARM and even the FPGA for that matter. Heck how
are you going to get PCBs made that aren't related to the same slave
labor you want to eschew?

My goal is to create the entire industry, from design to manufacturing.
I would be perfectly content to have someone step forward with a fab
given over to that purpose. Until such a fab is created, which may only
come from me creating such a fab, I have to use what's there. But as I
have told many people, once I'm able to bootstrap these efforts, I will
do so, and never look back. The same is true with software, hardware,
and manufacturing.

Ok, I have money. Let's say I am happy to devote some of it to a fab
that will build a chip for the purposes of God. Why *this* chip? Why
an obsolete design with little redeeming qualities? What is the
justification of this design over all others?

It's the one I have experience on, and have interest in. However, I do
desire to move it to 40 bits.

So this *is* about *you* then? Even so, I don't have any idea how
working on this project has any benefit for God or anyone else. It
seems like a hobby project you have tied into God for your own reasons.

I also have other interests. I believe there is an encoding in DNA which
conveys data and a processor ISA. I call it the "Butterfly CPU," and it
was something I was given which, to me at the time, was surprising. You
can read about it here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/dnaprojectbutterfly

The processor that executes DNA is life. Living organisms are the
machine that executes the code in DNA/RNA. No mystery there.

I have several ideas. And one of my prayers has been to be shown the
fundamental microprocessor. I've laid that desire before the Lord, and
left it there, continuing on in motion, knowing that as I am in motion,
He is able to use me, and then move me to where He needs me to be.

I think you need to be more motivated to explore alternate architectures
to the 386. Let me motivate you to the MISC style of computing. If you
follow that path and combine it with useful peripherals and I/O, I think
you can find a design that will have value in both this world and the next.

There are also several witnesses throughout my life. Things which have
happened to me that I can't just explain away, and even couldn't explain
away at that time.

In short: I am a sinner, saved by grace, and that grace has extended
throughout my life, even before I was a believer, and I have seen multiple
witnesses of His hand at work in my life, even before I received Him as
Lord and Savior.

But, we have to begin somewhere, and this is where I'm beginning... taking
what's here, and turning it around and giving it to God, desiring to build
the solid foundation upon an offering unto Him, and in all areas that are
involved. It's more than I can do alone, but I continue to pray that He
will send others, or that He will move me away from these endeavors and put
me at the place He would have me be, so that I am well within His will.

Ok, so you offer your design to Him. Will He then go out and have it
fabbed? Then what happens? Who will use a 15 year old computer design?
What value will it give to anyone other than you?

I don't have those answers. I will lift my effort up to Him with my life
and labor and prayer. He will then move me, and it, in the direction He
sees fit, and I would not presume to guess the future.

My personal goals for the future are part of a timeline of labor:

(1) By the end of this year, having my assembler and low-level
C compiler completed for my kernel, and
(2) have my kernel booting on real hardware using my own dev tools.
(3) In 2017, to rewrite part of my kernel in my low-level C language,
and to complete my RDC framework and CAlive compiler (a higher
level C-like compiler).
(4) Also in 2017, begin coding my Logician tool, which is a
semiconductor design tool.
(5) In 2018, have my kernel solid with several core apps and a
well-debugged RDC framework and CAlive compiler tool chain,
and also Visual FreePro, Jr.
(5) In 2019, have my ISA completed and working in simulation, and on
FPGAS, and begin working on other hardware devices, and the whole
system design (mainboard, form factor, features, etc).
(6) In 2020, 2021, and 2022, continue developing these things which
I have to get to the point where I have a complete system.
(7) In 2022, have my CPU and other hardware devices ready to be
manufactured in a fab.

(And there are a few more things in there at various stages, but those
are the big bullet points)

Will any of it come to pass? These are my goals. If the Lord is willing,
yes. If not, then I'll move to the next thing.

It's my desire: to serve Him, and in the capacity He's provided for me.
I am doing that to the best of my ability, and pray I continue to do so.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

--

Rick

 

[Rick C. Hodgin]

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:51:16 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:

You should be able to design one board with an FPGA, a 386 socket and a
386 plug which will work for any of the three things you have talked
about doing, emulating the mobo with your FPGA, emulating the 386 with
your FPGA and monitoring the 386 in a real mobo with the FPGA.

386 Chip
____________
++++++++++++ FPGA
============== _____________
|||||||||||| ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
=================================================== PCB
||||||||||||
Plugs into 386 Mobo

When emulating the 386 unplug it from the socket. When emulating the
mobo, unplug from the mobo. When monitoring the 386 in operation plug
in the 386 and plug the board into the mobo.

If you aren't in a hurry, I can help you with the PCB design. I can use
this as a learning tool to come up to speed with KiCAD which I've been
meaning to do.

I think I'd like to design this board, but without the plugs into the
386 motherboard.

Would you still be willing to help me with design? I'll get the pinouts
and work up a circuit and wiring diagram proposal in multi-layer image
format for inspection.

Do you know what part number I'd need for the level converters?

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Rick C. Hodgin]

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 1:29:49 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:

On 4/8/2016 8:14 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:51:16 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
You should be able to design one board with an FPGA, a 386 socket and a
386 plug which will work for any of the three things you have talked
about doing, emulating the mobo with your FPGA, emulating the 386 with
your FPGA and monitoring the 386 in a real mobo with the FPGA.

386 Chip
____________
++++++++++++ FPGA
============== _____________
|||||||||||| ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
=================================================== PCB
||||||||||||
Plugs into 386 Mobo

When emulating the 386 unplug it from the socket. When emulating the
mobo, unplug from the mobo. When monitoring the 386 in operation plug
in the 386 and plug the board into the mobo.

If you aren't in a hurry, I can help you with the PCB design. I can use
this as a learning tool to come up to speed with KiCAD which I've been
meaning to do.

I think I'd like to design this board, but without the plugs into the
386 motherboard.

Would you still be willing to help me with design? I'll get the pinouts
and work up a circuit and wiring diagram proposal in multi-layer image
format for inspection.

Do you know what part number I'd need for the level converters?

I use SN74CBTD3384 on a board I produce. I prefer the TSSOP (PW)
package, but that will depend on how you wish to layout the board.
There is a smaller package, the TVSOP (DGV) and some larger. No DIPs
I'm afraid.

If you want to get a board made, you need to use a layout package. I
don't know of any PCB fab houses that will work with custom art. It has
to be a layout package format or Gerber files.

Understood. The idea of the image format would be to present to you my
initial work, so you could scrutinize it and give me notes. I would
adjust it, and then once it's in final form, translate it to a layout
tool.

I have long-term goals to write a software program called Logician, which
is a logic layout tool which will include routing abilities. So, this
would be an early implementation of that algorithm so the bitlines are
not trumped by their neighbors.

I envision a 4- or 6-layer board with vias.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Rick C. Hodgin]

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 1:58:12 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:

On 4/8/2016 1:33 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 1:29:49 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/8/2016 8:14 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:51:16 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
You should be able to design one board with an FPGA, a 386 socket and a
386 plug which will work for any of the three things you have talked
about doing, emulating the mobo with your FPGA, emulating the 386 with
your FPGA and monitoring the 386 in a real mobo with the FPGA.

386 Chip
____________
++++++++++++ FPGA
============== _____________
|||||||||||| ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
=================================================== PCB
||||||||||||
Plugs into 386 Mobo

When emulating the 386 unplug it from the socket. When emulating the
mobo, unplug from the mobo. When monitoring the 386 in operation plug
in the 386 and plug the board into the mobo.

If you aren't in a hurry, I can help you with the PCB design. I can use
this as a learning tool to come up to speed with KiCAD which I've been
meaning to do.

I think I'd like to design this board, but without the plugs into the
386 motherboard.

Would you still be willing to help me with design? I'll get the pinouts
and work up a circuit and wiring diagram proposal in multi-layer image
format for inspection.

Do you know what part number I'd need for the level converters?

I use SN74CBTD3384 on a board I produce. I prefer the TSSOP (PW)
package, but that will depend on how you wish to layout the board.
There is a smaller package, the TVSOP (DGV) and some larger. No DIPs
I'm afraid.

If you want to get a board made, you need to use a layout package. I
don't know of any PCB fab houses that will work with custom art. It has
to be a layout package format or Gerber files.

Understood. The idea of the image format would be to present to you my
initial work, so you could scrutinize it and give me notes. I would
adjust it, and then once it's in final form, translate it to a layout
tool.

I have long-term goals to write a software program called Logician, which
is a logic layout tool which will include routing abilities. So, this
would be an early implementation of that algorithm so the bitlines are
not trumped by their neighbors.

I envision a 4- or 6-layer board with vias.

To start, I suggest you take a look at FreePCB. It has an easy
learning curve and support in a Yahoo group. Stick to a 4 layer board
for cost.

FreePCB looks good. How much should a board like this cost?

I can't see any reason why this would not be easy. Pick an
FPGA in a non-BGA package if you can. I don't recall how many I/O you
need, but there are 144 pin QFPs (~110 I/Os) and I think some 208 pin
QFPs around. Even if you go with an older FPGA like a Spartan 3A the
wider pitch package is worth it. If you have to use a BGA, pick one
with a wide ball spacing like 1.0 mm.

I had planned on using my Altera Cyclone V GX dev board with this FPGA:

http://wl.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/kit-terasic-cyclone-v-gx-starter.html

I have an adapter coming which leverages the HSMC port to GPIO ports:

http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=67&No=322&PartNo=2#section

I'm going to begin working on my Logician tool off-and-on this year.
It will allow me to program logic gates and handle translation to a
physical process, along with wire routing. It will include a full
simulator, and an export-to-Verilog module, which I will use for the
general purpose logic.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[Rick C. Hodgin]

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 3:05:09 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:

rickman wrote:

I don't recall how many I/O you
need, but there are 144 pin QFPs (~110 I/Os) and I think some 208 pin
QFPs around. Even if you go with an older FPGA like a Spartan 3A the
wider pitch package is worth it. If you have to use a BGA, pick one
with a wide ball spacing like 1.0 mm.

I have learned how to solder QFPs down to 0.4mm pitch, but it takes a TINY
soldering tip, a stereo zoom microscope and a STEADY hand! 0.65 mm pitch is
pretty easy, at least for me.

I was under the impression I'd use some kind of solder paste over a solder
mask the PCB maker sends, place the parts, and then simply bake in some kind
of high-heat oven.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

 

[rickman]

On 4/8/2016 8:14 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:51:16 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
You should be able to design one board with an FPGA, a 386 socket and a
386 plug which will work for any of the three things you have talked
about doing, emulating the mobo with your FPGA, emulating the 386 with
your FPGA and monitoring the 386 in a real mobo with the FPGA.

386 Chip
____________
++++++++++++ FPGA
============== _____________
|||||||||||| ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
=================================================== PCB
||||||||||||
Plugs into 386 Mobo

When emulating the 386 unplug it from the socket. When emulating the
mobo, unplug from the mobo. When monitoring the 386 in operation plug
in the 386 and plug the board into the mobo.

If you aren't in a hurry, I can help you with the PCB design. I can use
this as a learning tool to come up to speed with KiCAD which I've been
meaning to do.

I think I'd like to design this board, but without the plugs into the
386 motherboard.

Would you still be willing to help me with design? I'll get the pinouts
and work up a circuit and wiring diagram proposal in multi-layer image
format for inspection.

Do you know what part number I'd need for the level converters?

I use SN74CBTD3384 on a board I produce. I prefer the TSSOP (PW)
package, but that will depend on how you wish to layout the board.
There is a smaller package, the TVSOP (DGV) and some larger. No DIPs
I'm afraid.

If you want to get a board made, you need to use a layout package. I
don't know of any PCB fab houses that will work with custom art. It has
to be a layout package format or Gerber files.

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 4/8/2016 1:33 PM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:

On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 1:29:49 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
On 4/8/2016 8:14 AM, Rick C. Hodgin wrote:
On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 11:51:16 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
You should be able to design one board with an FPGA, a 386 socket and a
386 plug which will work for any of the three things you have talked
about doing, emulating the mobo with your FPGA, emulating the 386 with
your FPGA and monitoring the 386 in a real mobo with the FPGA.

386 Chip
____________
++++++++++++ FPGA
============== _____________
|||||||||||| ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
=================================================== PCB
||||||||||||
Plugs into 386 Mobo

When emulating the 386 unplug it from the socket. When emulating the
mobo, unplug from the mobo. When monitoring the 386 in operation plug
in the 386 and plug the board into the mobo.

If you aren't in a hurry, I can help you with the PCB design. I can use
this as a learning tool to come up to speed with KiCAD which I've been
meaning to do.

I think I'd like to design this board, but without the plugs into the
386 motherboard.

Would you still be willing to help me with design? I'll get the pinouts
and work up a circuit and wiring diagram proposal in multi-layer image
format for inspection.

Do you know what part number I'd need for the level converters?

I use SN74CBTD3384 on a board I produce. I prefer the TSSOP (PW)
package, but that will depend on how you wish to layout the board.
There is a smaller package, the TVSOP (DGV) and some larger. No DIPs
I'm afraid.

If you want to get a board made, you need to use a layout package. I
don't know of any PCB fab houses that will work with custom art. It has
to be a layout package format or Gerber files.

Understood. The idea of the image format would be to present to you my
initial work, so you could scrutinize it and give me notes. I would
adjust it, and then once it's in final form, translate it to a layout
tool.

I have long-term goals to write a software program called Logician, which
is a logic layout tool which will include routing abilities. So, this
would be an early implementation of that algorithm so the bitlines are
not trumped by their neighbors.

I envision a 4- or 6-layer board with vias.

To start, I suggest you take a look at FreePCB. It has an easy
learning curve and support in a Yahoo group. Stick to a 4 layer board
for cost. I can't see any reason why this would not be easy. Pick an
FPGA in a non-BGA package if you can. I don't recall how many I/O you
need, but there are 144 pin QFPs (~110 I/Os) and I think some 208 pin
QFPs around. Even if you go with an older FPGA like a Spartan 3A the
wider pitch package is worth it. If you have to use a BGA, pick one
with a wide ball spacing like 1.0 mm.

--

Rick

 

[Jon Elson]

rickman wrote:

On 4/8/2016 12:14 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

So, Xilinx is working for me. And, yes, after going to the trouble of
getting comfortable in the Xilinx tools, the last thing I want to do is
learn somebody else's tools' quirks.

What tool quirks.

I didn't really mean quirks as in things that didn't work, or work right. I
just meant that each tool chain has a lot of features to learn, where the
optional settings are hidden, how to quickly configure the simulator, how to
set up to generate configuration PROM images, etc. There is a lot to learn
before you get fully productive.

Jon