UPS battery life

[Wild_Bill]

I think the reason for the long battery life in this case, is more likely
due to the quality of the batteries you're using.
What is the brand name and model number of the batteries?

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


<news@jecarter.us> wrote in message
news:koa4i6luqv4j60hmt390ca322qbbpedpda@4ax.com...

A charged but unused SLA should retain its charge for months. The
battery powered cars the grandkids love (got them on freecycle, not
new at $300 each) have 12 volt 10AH SLA batteries and typically get
charged twice a year (when the grandkids are here). I use a Black &
Decker charger that does 1 or2 amp charging (switch selected) and the
1 amp charge works well. The B&D charger is "smarter" than the
original charger which comes with a "do not charge more than X hours"
warning. Many UPS chargers are in the same category - they do a fast
charge to quickly replenish the battery after use, but there is no
"smart" monitoring. I've seen several different brands of small UPS
(300 watts or so) kill batteries in a year or less - even if unused.
The charging circuit simply cooks the battery.

Forget about using a UPS to charge a battery. Instead, buy a real
charger which won't destroy a bettery even if it's left on charge all
the time. For most UPS batteries, I would recommend the Black &
Decker Smart Battery Maintainer. It uses a switch mode power supply
and has LEDs for "charging" and "charge complete". The charger is $22
at amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-BM2B-Automatic-Maintainer/dp/B000AMOEPA
and I've seen it for about $20 at Target and Walmart. If you can find
the older version with the 1amp/2amp charge level switch, it's even
better on the smaller batteries.

Keep an SLA battery properly charged and it will last a very long
time. The electric cars are typically driven until they no longer
move, so the batteries get a full discharge at relatively high current
(5 amps on level driveway; 15 amps uphill - more if two kids in one
car). These batteries have been in service two years and seem to have
close to their original capacity.

John

 

[Andrew Rossmann]

In article <npc1i61udidtlunkc67qqahu0s4t0u5gjj@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately.

Model number please? I'm curious.

The battery I'm trying to recover is a PowerSonic PS1270. The UPS I want
to put it in (the current battery lasted about 5 minutes) is a Back UPS
ES 725. I'm trying to use an unused ES 350 to charge it for now. It was
up to about 11.1V this morning. I may try the shake thing another poster
mentioned, as a last resort.

Problem is, I buy these things, but then completely forget about them
until I need them!! It's not too big of a deal, as it's just a
convenience to try and keep the Comcast DVR powered up as it can take a
day or two for the program guide to fully reload.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

 

[David]

I have been following this thread for awhile. Many have talked
about sulfated cells and you initially said the charging current
was less than 10 mA. Given the low battery terminal voltage, I
doubt the problem is a sulfated battery since sulfation leads to
a high impedance battery and high terminal voltage while
charging. I would suspect a problem with the charging circuitry
in the 'spare' UPS you are using for charging. The current should
be closer to 1A until the voltage rises some more. At ~13.6 volts
the current should drop off markedly.

David

"Andrew Rossmann" wrote in message
news:MPG.278c1457729021cd98976e@news.eternal-september.org...

In article <npc1i61udidtlunkc67qqahu0s4t0u5gjj@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I
bought 2,
and used one immediately.

Model number please? I'm curious.

The battery I'm trying to recover is a PowerSonic PS1270. The UPS
I want
to put it in (the current battery lasted about 5 minutes) is a
Back UPS
ES 725. I'm trying to use an unused ES 350 to charge it for now.
It was
up to about 11.1V this morning. I may try the shake thing another
poster
mentioned, as a last resort.

Problem is, I buy these things, but then completely forget about
them
until I need them!! It's not too big of a deal, as it's just a
convenience to try and keep the Comcast DVR powered up as it can
take a
day or two for the program guide to fully reload.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before
replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of
the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 17:14:32 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

In article <npc1i61udidtlunkc67qqahu0s4t0u5gjj@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately.

Model number please? I'm curious.

The battery I'm trying to recover is a PowerSonic PS1270.

That's the very common 12v 7.0A gel cell found in many UPS's. $15 to
$20 almost everywhere.

The UPS I want
to put it in (the current battery lasted about 5 minutes) is a Back UPS
ES 725.

<http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE725bb>
I have one of those running my home system. It eats a battery every 3
years. What seems to be killing it is that if it operates when I'm
not at home, it runs until the battery is discharged. Do that a few
times, and the battery is dead. Nothing like waking up in the middle
of the night just to turn off the bleeping UPS.

The PowerSonic PS1270 is a good replacement for the stock battery.

I'm trying to use an unused ES 350 to charge it for now. It was
up to about 11.1V this morning.

<http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE350U>
Very similar UPS. It should work.

I may try the shake thing another poster
mentioned, as a last resort.

That was me. It's not very reliable way of removing sulfation, but
has supplied a few miraculous revivals.

Problem is, I buy these things, but then completely forget about them
until I need them!!

Easy. Don't buy them until you need them or invent some scheme to
keep the inventory charged.

It's not too big of a deal, as it's just a
convenience to try and keep the Comcast DVR powered up as it can take a
day or two for the program guide to fully reload.

Switch to Satellite TV. My DirecTV DVR boots and loads in about 5
minutes.

You may want to power cycle your DVR anyway:
<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_use_a_Motorola_DVR/Bugs#Bugs>
It is advisable to cold-reboot the DCT once a month, by simply
unplugging the box for 30 seconds. After power is restored,
be patient as the program guide and other features reload
(approx. 20 minutes, 24 hours for the guide to fully populate).
Minor odd DVR behaviors are usually cleared up, and more serious
ones prevented by this procedure. However, sometimes a bug is
still just a bug.

I just made a quick check of my battery collection on the shelf. Last
time I charged them was about 3 months ago. Out of about 8 batteries,
2 of them are showing very low terminal voltage, which is a good
indication that they're dead or dying. So much for charging every 6
months. Most were used when I bought them for $5/ea at a ham radio
swap meet, so I can't really complain.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

 

[Mysterious Traveler]

On 01/03/2011 05:14 PM, Andrew Rossmann wrote:

In article<npc1i61udidtlunkc67qqahu0s4t0u5gjj@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately.

Model number please? I'm curious.

The battery I'm trying to recover is a PowerSonic PS1270. The UPS I want
to put it in (the current battery lasted about 5 minutes) is a Back UPS
ES 725. I'm trying to use an unused ES 350 to charge it for now. It was
up to about 11.1V this morning. I may try the shake thing another poster
mentioned, as a last resort.

Problem is, I buy these things, but then completely forget about them
until I need them!! It's not too big of a deal, as it's just a
convenience to try and keep the Comcast DVR powered up as it can take a
day or two for the program guide to fully reload.

I zapped one of those batteries with a 110 volt welder at 40 amps and

brought it back to life for a short while by hooking it to the correct
poles like jump starting a car.

--

 

[Jerry G.]

On Jan 2, 11:01 am, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
The UPS batteries are lead acid jell types. This type of battery if

discharged for any length of time will become sulfide damaged.

Under normal use these lead acid jell batteries have a usable lifespan
of about 3 to 4 years. Sometimes I only got about 2 to 3 years out of
the batteries.

Here in our facility we have many UPS's. I keep logs on their
maintenance. I am changing the batteries on an average of about 3
years. If l leave a UPS discharged for more than about a week, I have
to replace the battery. I found they become damaged very fast.

When the UPS is powered off and the battery is left connected inside
it can hold the charge for maybe a week or two. If I disconnect the
battery it will hold enough charge for about a month or maybe two.


Jerry G.

UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 17:48:13 -0600, "David" <someone@somewhere.com>
wrote:

I have been following this thread for awhile. Many have talked
about sulfated cells and you initially said the charging current
was less than 10 mA. Given the low battery terminal voltage, I
doubt the problem is a sulfated battery since sulfation leads to
a high impedance battery and high terminal voltage while
charging. I would suspect a problem with the charging circuitry
in the 'spare' UPS you are using for charging. The current should
be closer to 1A until the voltage rises some more. At ~13.6 volts
the current should drop off markedly.

<http://www.bulldog-battery.com/PDF%20Files/sulphated%20batteries.pdf>
Most cases of sulphation are caused by:
- UNDER CHARGING OR NEGLECT OF EQUALIZING CHARGE
- STANDING IN A PARTIALLY OR COMPLETELY DISCHARGED CONDITION
- LOW ELECTROLYTE
- ADDING ACID
- HIGH SPECIFIC GRAVITY

Note that undercharging is a common cause of sulfation.
10ma qualifies as undercharging.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Ian Field]

"Mysterious Traveler" <mysterious.traveler@dot.net> wrote in message
news:qJ-dnYDXYJLpPL_QnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@giganews.com...

On 01/03/2011 05:14 PM, Andrew Rossmann wrote:
In article<npc1i61udidtlunkc67qqahu0s4t0u5gjj@4ax.com>,
jeffl@cruzio.com says...

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately.

Model number please? I'm curious.

The battery I'm trying to recover is a PowerSonic PS1270. The UPS I want
to put it in (the current battery lasted about 5 minutes) is a Back UPS
ES 725. I'm trying to use an unused ES 350 to charge it for now. It was
up to about 11.1V this morning. I may try the shake thing another poster
mentioned, as a last resort.

Problem is, I buy these things, but then completely forget about them
until I need them!! It's not too big of a deal, as it's just a
convenience to try and keep the Comcast DVR powered up as it can take a
day or two for the program guide to fully reload.

I zapped one of those batteries with a 110 volt welder at 40 amps

More likely to finnish it off than do it any good!

If sulphation makes a battery reluctant to take any charge current; splice a
bridge rectifier into the neutral lead of a 100W table lamp.

This will give it all the voltage it needs to break down the sulphation, as
the battery terminal voltages approaches normal the lamp will get near to
full brightness, when the terminal voltage falls within the normal range you
can move it to a regular charger.

If the lamp trick doesn't get it going, its time to scrap it and buy a new
one.

 

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:01:08 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
<wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

I think the reason for the long battery life in this case, is more likely
due to the quality of the batteries you're using.
What is the brand name and model number of the batteries?

The batteries are Ebay "cheapies" from International Importers. Their
house brand is "III". See listing here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/12V-10ah-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery-/290509772610?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item43a3bb5742

John

 

[Andrew Rossmann]

In article <iftn7v$33q$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
someone@somewhere.com says...

I have been following this thread for awhile. Many have talked
about sulfated cells and you initially said the charging current
was less than 10 mA. Given the low battery terminal voltage, I
doubt the problem is a sulfated battery since sulfation leads to
a high impedance battery and high terminal voltage while
charging. I would suspect a problem with the charging circuitry
in the 'spare' UPS you are using for charging. The current should
be closer to 1A until the voltage rises some more. At ~13.6 volts
the current should drop off markedly.

I put the ES 350's own battery back, also somewhat depleted after
sitting awhile. It's a slightly smaller 3.2AH version. After sitting
overnight, I was able to get it the UPS to stay in ON mode if I
unplugged the UPS from power, then plugged it back in. I roughly
measured nearly 100mA of charge. I tried swapping the other battery, and
it was back to 5mA. I'm considering that battery toast.

The battery in the one UPS that lasted only 5 minutes has been drained
once or twice before, so has lost capacity from that. I'll get a pair of
batteries to replace both of the ES 725's I have, as both are nearly the
same age.

Now to figure out where to safely recycle these. I have a pair of old
12AH's from another UPS that have been sitting around in addition to the
ones I'll be replacing.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 1/4/2011 5:11 PM, Andrew Rossmann wrote:

Now to figure out where to safely recycle these. I have a pair of old
12AH's from another UPS that have been sitting around in addition to the
ones I'll be replacing.

Ace Hardware and Home Depot _should_ have a battery
recycling program since they sell batteries for tools
and emergency lighting. (Both NiCad and gell cells.

If not, look in the yellow pages for a recycling center.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 17:11:27 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I put the ES 350's own battery back, also somewhat depleted after
sitting awhile. It's a slightly smaller 3.2AH version. After sitting
overnight, I was able to get it the UPS to stay in ON mode if I
unplugged the UPS from power, then plugged it back in. I roughly
measured nearly 100mA of charge. I tried swapping the other battery, and
it was back to 5mA. I'm considering that battery toast.

Yep, it's dead.

The battery in the one UPS that lasted only 5 minutes has been drained
once or twice before, so has lost capacity from that. I'll get a pair of
batteries to replace both of the ES 725's I have, as both are nearly the
same age.

Also dead.

Favorite UPS battery vendor of the week:
<http://www.batterywholesale.com>

Now to figure out where to safely recycle these. I have a pair of old
12AH's from another UPS that have been sitting around in addition to the
ones I'll be replacing.

<http://www.call2recycle.org>
See "drop off locations" on the right side of the page.
Not every location will take SLA batteries, so it's best to ask before
leaving a pile on their doorstep. In general, any place that sells
SLA batteries, will also take them for recycling. Also, nobody wants
a leaking battery so make sure it's not dripping acid.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:25:40 -0500, news@jecarter.us wrote:

The batteries are Ebay "cheapies" from International Importers. Their
house brand is "III". See listing here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/12V-10ah-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery-/290509772610?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item43a3bb5742
John

Here's a clue as to battery quality. Note the shipping weight on the
above battery is 7.0 lbs. Now, look at the shipping weight of a real
SLA 12V 7A battery:
<http://www.batterywholesale.com/battery-store/proddetail.html?prodID=232>
which is 9.0 lbs. In most (not all) cases, the quality of an SLA
battery is determined by the amount of lead included.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Andrew Rossmann wrote:

In article <iftn7v$33q$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
someone@somewhere.com says...

I have been following this thread for awhile. Many have talked
about sulfated cells and you initially said the charging current
was less than 10 mA. Given the low battery terminal voltage, I
doubt the problem is a sulfated battery since sulfation leads to
a high impedance battery and high terminal voltage while
charging. I would suspect a problem with the charging circuitry
in the 'spare' UPS you are using for charging. The current should
be closer to 1A until the voltage rises some more. At ~13.6 volts
the current should drop off markedly.

I put the ES 350's own battery back, also somewhat depleted after
sitting awhile. It's a slightly smaller 3.2AH version. After sitting
overnight, I was able to get it the UPS to stay in ON mode if I
unplugged the UPS from power, then plugged it back in. I roughly
measured nearly 100mA of charge. I tried swapping the other battery, and
it was back to 5mA. I'm considering that battery toast.

The battery in the one UPS that lasted only 5 minutes has been drained
once or twice before, so has lost capacity from that. I'll get a pair of
batteries to replace both of the ES 725's I have, as both are nearly the
same age.

Now to figure out where to safely recycle these. I have a pair of old
12AH's from another UPS that have been sitting around in addition to the
ones I'll be replacing.

Most places that recycle car batteries will take them. Here in
Central Florida I can drop them off at any of the transfer stations. If
they say they can't take them, tell them they are built like car
batteries, but smaller. Or tell them it was on your motorcycle. ;-)



--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

 

[Wild_Bill]

I was just looking at some of those triple-I brand batteries a couple of
days earlier, and noticed that they're low priced, and assumed that they may
also be low quality.
John, your experience with them in somewhat severe service is actually quite
impressive.

Since many of the lead-acid batteries which are available are now made in
China, there probably isn't a reliable method of choosing any particular
brand name for any significantly-better durability.. other than the
comparatively very expensive premium quality U.S. or UK brands.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


<news@jecarter.us> wrote in message
news:9ql6i69nddi774e7dn5lr74qfjrikk6ist@4ax.com...

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:01:08 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

I think the reason for the long battery life in this case, is more likely
due to the quality of the batteries you're using.
What is the brand name and model number of the batteries?

The batteries are Ebay "cheapies" from International Importers. Their
house brand is "III". See listing here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/12V-10ah-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery-/290509772610?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item43a3bb5742

John

 

[Andrew Rossmann]

In article <MPG.278a5d698320a03498976c@news.eternal-september.org>,
andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net says...

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

Just a note that on that dead battery, the manufacturer date code (how
to read the code was on the PowerSonic web site) was from December 2002,
and it had never been used. No wonder it was dead!

I went and bought 2 replacement batteries. I should have done my
homework first and looked at what was actually in the UPS's. The battery
I found on-line was a PowerSonic PS-1270. This is a basic, 12V 7AH
battery. They are dated from October and November of 2010. The battery I
took out of the UPS, after removing the APC label, was a BB Batttery
HR9-12. This is a 9AH HighRate. The PowerSonic equivalent would be the
PSH-1280FR. The date code for the BB battery is DD021018. Haven't found
how to read that, yet.

Just how much life will I lose with these 7AH batteries, and do you
think the HR rating will make a difference? The UPS is rated 725VA,
although I only have a VCR and cable box plugged into it the backup
section.

Costwise, it wasn't too big a deal. The 2 batteries ($14 each) and
shipping ($13 for the pair) were about the same as buying a single
genuine APC battery. I bought them from PortablePower.com, via Amazon.
They do have the PowerSonic 1280 for $20.50. Any suggestions for any
other brand that you may trust more?

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

 

[who where]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2011 19:23:40 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

Just a note that on that dead battery, the manufacturer date code (how
to read the code was on the PowerSonic web site) was from December 2002,
and it had never been used. No wonder it was dead!

I went and bought 2 replacement batteries. I should have done my
homework first and looked at what was actually in the UPS's. The battery
I found on-line was a PowerSonic PS-1270. This is a basic, 12V 7AH
battery. They are dated from October and November of 2010. The battery I
took out of the UPS, after removing the APC label, was a BB Batttery
HR9-12. This is a 9AH HighRate. The PowerSonic equivalent would be the
PSH-1280FR. The date code for the BB battery is DD021018. Haven't found
how to read that, yet.

If I follow the story correctly, your dead battery was originally
purchased as a "spare". Ergo you had the subject UPS at that time or
shortly thereafter. Is there any reason you haven't gone with the
logical YYMMDD interpretation of the BB date?

Just how much life will I lose with these 7AH batteries, and do you
think the HR rating will make a difference? The UPS is rated 725VA,
although I only have a VCR and cable box plugged into it the backup
section.

IMOE the main issue with using "standard" (as opposed to high rate)
batteries in a UPS is they are being operated outside their design
envelope at any decent proportion of UPS load capability - which in
your case *may* be irrelevant. I have seen standard batteries'
deliverable capacity deteriorate after a handful of serious
discharges in UPS duty, and the HR units haven't exhibited this. One
thing I haven't actually done is measure temp rise in the battery
after a full load discharge to cutoff - THAT would be a telling
comparison.

We always reload SLA/VRLA-based UPS with HR batteries.

Costwise, it wasn't too big a deal. The 2 batteries ($14 each) and
shipping ($13 for the pair) were about the same as buying a single
genuine APC battery. I bought them from PortablePower.com, via Amazon.
They do have the PowerSonic 1280 for $20.50. Any suggestions for any
other brand that you may trust more?

Most "genuine APC" batteries we have seen are BB anyway.