UPS battery life

[Andrew Rossmann]

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 1/2/2011 10:01 AM, Andrew Rossmann wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago.
I bought 2, and used one immediately.

There's a reason alarm companies change the sealed lead
acid batteries annually. Typical life on them is about
2 years. 4 years on the shelf is well, not good.

Keeping them charged up at all times is the only way to
keep them (or any lead cell) happy and useful.

Jeff

 

[Ian Field]

"Andrew Rossmann" <andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.278a5d698320a03498976c@news.eternal-september.org...

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

Next time you buy a spare battery to save for later, buy a dry-charged
battery with the acid in a separate bottle/applicator.

The Varta motorcycle battery I bought before the UK VAT increase came with a
DIY filling kit so I could store it till I need it, with a bit of shopping
around you should be able to find a DIY filling kit SLA.

 

[PeterD]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

The battery is likely 'toast' now, I'd suggest replacing it. If you
have a compatible desulfating charger you could try desulfating it,
but I suspect there is little or no hope.

 

[nesesu]

On Jan 2, 8:01 am, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

Andy, It sounds like it may be at least partially sulphated now. I
would turn on the UPS and put a heavier charge rate into it, or, if
that is not possible, then charge it with an external 12V charger. If
it does take a charge, then cycle it a couple of times [discharge/
charge] and then measure how it performs in the UPS under moderate
load. You may have caught it in time, or it may be too far gone. One
really good indicator is if the batttery case has bulged so that there
is a distinct bulge in the sides and ends between the cell separators,
then the battery is definitely 'toast'.

Neil S.

 

[Andrew Rossmann]

In article <771c632e-4b2a-4fb9-998f-
7845b7905d2a@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, neil_sutcliffe@telus.net
says...

Andy, It sounds like it may be at least partially sulphated now. I
would turn on the UPS and put a heavier charge rate into it, or, if
that is not possible, then charge it with an external 12V charger. If
it does take a charge, then cycle it a couple of times [discharge/
charge] and then measure how it performs in the UPS under moderate
load. You may have caught it in time, or it may be too far gone. One
really good indicator is if the batttery case has bulged so that there
is a distinct bulge in the sides and ends between the cell separators,
then the battery is definitely 'toast'.

The battery is physically in good condition. No bulging or anything like
that. Given how low the charge rate is, it'll probably take another day
or two to fully charge. I've seen this battery for about $14 at Amazon,
so it's not that expensive (the shipping is almost as much!) If I can
get it to the point where the UPS doesn't scream 'replace battery', I
can then test it to see how well it works.

I don't have any other real charging source, or at least something I'd
consider safe. The only 12V source I have is an old Radio Shack
regulated 12V@2.5A supply, or some wall warts. The charging rate is low,
but I assume it's probably safer and better for the battery than trying
to charge it quickly?

This all came to a head due to a power outage on Friday. The battery in
one UPS (APC Back UPS 725 ES, 7 AH battery, probably 6+ years old) only
lasted about 5 minutes powering a cable DVR, VCR, and an RF modulator. I
wanted to replace it, but this battery was too weak. Another UPS (same
as the other) running my modem and router ran for an hour before I
decided to turn it off.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately.

Model number please? I'm curious.

I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself.

If you let a gel cell battery run down for an extended period, it will
sulfate itself rather nicely. Once the terminal voltage drops below
about 11VDC, it's on it's way to the recyclers. I have to charge my
stock of SLA batteries every 6 months or I end up with dead batteries.
Sometimes, even with a 6 month recharge, my older used batteries die.
After 4 years, you have the added enjoyment of plate corrosion, which
is not reversable. For my amusement, I once tore apart a dead SLA
battery to see what's inside. To my surprise, both the lead
(positive) and lead dioxide (negative) plates looked like rather
corroded.

I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V.

Yep, it's almost dead, but not quite. It might be possible to recover
by overcharging. See:
<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_restore_and_prolong_lead_acid_batteries>

I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

I've often suspected that UPS charging circuits were a bit too
aggressive and have a detrimental effect on battery life. My
conspiracy theory is that most people don't bother to replace dead
batteries and will replace the entire UPS instead. So, premature
battery death will result in more UPS sales. However, the problem is
that UPS's are sold based on their run time and somewhat on how fast
they recharge after a power failure. So, the charging circuits are
designed to squeeze as much charge into the battery as possible, in as
short a time period, rather than for long life.
<http://robots.freehostia.com/Batteries/Batteries.html>

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

Dunno. I've had zero luck with recovering an SLA battery that's been
run down that far.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <MPG.278a5d698320a03498976c@news.eternal-september.org>,
Andrew Rossmann <andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

It sounds as if the battery has become badly sulphated. This is not
uncommon if you let a lead-acid battery sit around un-used... the
lead plates have become coated with a layer of lead sulphate, in a
crystalline form which is both insulating, and difficult to convert
back to a soluble form. The battery now looks pretty much like an
open circuit to the UPS, as it has a very high resistance, and it will
not accept a charge efficiently from the recharging circuit.

To keep this from happening (in the future) it's best to keep the
battery fully charged, via a "float-charge" mechanism at just the
right voltage (which depends somewhat on the temperature).

There are techniques which can be used to de-sulphate a battery and
restore it to at least some degree of usefulness. The techniques
vary in detail, but usually involve applying a higher voltage to the
battery (with a careful limit on the amount of current available!) to
break down the sulphate crystals and allow them to re-dissolve. This
is sometimes done via a "pulser" (which generates short high-voltage
pulses) and sometimes through a dedicated high-voltage supply.

Whether a badly sulphated battery can ever be returned to a
substantial fraction of its original capacity seems to be a somewhat
controversial question... some say yes, some say no. It may depend a
lot on the specifics of the battery type and the degree of sulphation.

Your best bet is probably to just buy a fresh battery, when you know
you need it for one of your USP systems... and check the date code on
the new battery before you buy it to make sure it's really fresh and
hasn't been sitting on a shelf for several years!

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[D Yuniskis]

On 1/2/2011 9:41 AM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 1/2/2011 10:01 AM, Andrew Rossmann wrote:
I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago.
I bought 2, and used one immediately.

There's a reason alarm companies change the sealed lead
acid batteries annually. Typical life on them is about
2 years. 4 years on the shelf is well, not good.

Keeping them charged up at all times is the only way to
keep them (or any lead cell) happy and useful.

You can also lower the specific gravity of the cells
to prolong life. Of course, only applies to *wet* cells.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 11:40:33 -0800, dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
wrote:

Whether a badly sulphated battery can ever be returned to a
substantial fraction of its original capacity seems to be a somewhat
controversial question... some say yes, some say no. It may depend a
lot on the specifics of the battery type and the degree of sulphation.

I say maybe. One trick that I've tried, that has worked with lightly
to moderately sulfated batteries, is to clamp it in a paint shaker and
shake along the axis of the plates. If you can't find a paint shaker,
I've used a Sawzall with a custom shaker attachment.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZlJ05SJwpU>
Anything that reciprocates will work. The idea is to get the gel or
liquid electrolyte to slosh around, hopefully causing the lead
sulphate coating to break off and fall to the bottom. Unfortunately,
if the plates are badly corroded, instead of the lead sulfate falling
off, the plates will crumble. As a side benefit, you'll get quite an
arm massage with a heavy battery. My batting average is about 50% so
this is not a reliable method. Still, it has produced a few
miraculous battery recoveries.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[nesesu]

On Jan 2, 11:40 am, dpl...@radagast.org (Dave Platt) wrote:

In article <MPG.278a5d698320a034989...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Andrew Rossmann  <andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

It sounds as if the battery has become badly sulphated.  This is not
uncommon if you let a lead-acid battery sit around un-used... the
lead plates have become coated with a layer of lead sulphate, in a
crystalline form which is both insulating, and difficult to convert
back to a soluble form.  The battery now looks pretty much like an
open circuit to the UPS, as it has a very high resistance, and it will
not accept a charge efficiently from the recharging circuit.

To keep this from happening (in the future) it's best to keep the
battery fully charged, via a "float-charge" mechanism at just the
right voltage (which depends somewhat on the temperature).

There are techniques which can be used to de-sulphate a battery and
restore it to at least some degree of usefulness.  The techniques
vary in detail, but usually involve applying a higher voltage to the
battery (with a careful limit on the amount of current available!) to
break down the sulphate crystals and allow them to re-dissolve.  This
is sometimes done via a "pulser" (which generates short high-voltage
pulses) and sometimes through a dedicated high-voltage supply.

Whether a badly sulphated battery can ever be returned to a
substantial fraction of its original capacity seems to be a somewhat
controversial question... some say yes, some say no.  It may depend a
lot on the specifics of the battery type and the degree of sulphation.

Your best bet is probably to just buy a fresh battery, when you know
you need it for one of your USP systems... and check the date code on
the new battery before you buy it to make sure it's really fresh and
hasn't been sitting on a shelf for several years!

--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page:  http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Usually you need to buy the battery a couple of days BEFORE you
discover you need it

At work we had a very large UPS that used 600V of gel-cell 12V
batteries each about the size of a largish car battery. In the 15
years or so that it was in use, there were, perhaps, 5 power failures
and the UPS failed every time even though all the routine maintenance
and testing was observed. Other than the first time when it was only a
month or so old and the inverter blew up [linerally] all the rest of
the failures were due to battery failure.

Neil S.

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 1/2/2011 3:50 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I've used a Sawzall with a custom shaker attachment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZlJ05SJwpU

There are betters uses of a sawzall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPEBQ98VoEE

Jeff

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per nesesu:

At work we had a very large UPS that used 600V of gel-cell 12V
batteries each about the size of a largish car battery. In the 15
years or so that it was in use, there were, perhaps, 5 power failures
and the UPS failed every time even though all the routine maintenance
and testing was observed. Other than the first time when it was only a
month or so old and the inverter blew up [linerally] all the rest of
the failures were due to battery failure.

This begs a question that's been bugging me for years: why
doesn't somebody make a UPS that hooks up to a 12-v non-vented
automobile battery?

Automobile batteries are available at many different
price/quality points, they're pretty much a universal standard,
the capacity is there in spades, public knowledge about
maintaining/replacing them is widespread, and push-comes-to-shove
in an extended outage, the battery in somebody's car can be
swapped in for a few more hours working time.

I guess there has tb a reason... but what?
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 1/2/2011 5:23 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Automobile batteries are available at many different
price/quality points, they're pretty much a universal standard,
the capacity is there in spades, public knowledge about
maintaining/replacing them is widespread, and push-comes-to-shove
in an extended outage, the battery in somebody's car can be
swapped in for a few more hours working time.

I guess there has to be a reason... but what?

Short term vs long term capacity.

Automotive batteries really don't like being a long term
power source. You're actually better off getting a Marine
battery for that.

And you probably do NOT want "joe Consumer" dicking about
with a the current capacity (and capacity for impressive
flames and smoke) when he hooks it up wrong or drops a
wrench across the terminals.

Jeff

 

[who where]

On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 17:29:44 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
<jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

On 1/2/2011 5:23 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Automobile batteries are available at many different
price/quality points, they're pretty much a universal standard,
the capacity is there in spades, public knowledge about
maintaining/replacing them is widespread, and push-comes-to-shove
in an extended outage, the battery in somebody's car can be
swapped in for a few more hours working time.

I guess there has to be a reason... but what?

Short term vs long term capacity.

Automotive batteries really don't like being a long term
power source. You're actually better off getting a Marine
battery for that.

We had a distant radio-communications site that had grid power. It
needed battery backup as the grid certainly didn't provide the 100%
availability that we required of the radio systems. Because of the
distance and the cost of maintenance trips, it was visited annually
(unless a failure occurred).

After some analysis it was determined that the best backup battery
option was the standard "maintenance-free" auto battery, replaced each
year. More expensive batteries didn't stack up economically, and
these also were donated into auto use after retrieval, where they gave
additional service.

 

[PeterD]

On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 18:23:31 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid>
wrote:

Per nesesu:
At work we had a very large UPS that used 600V of gel-cell 12V
batteries each about the size of a largish car battery. In the 15
years or so that it was in use, there were, perhaps, 5 power failures
and the UPS failed every time even though all the routine maintenance
and testing was observed. Other than the first time when it was only a
month or so old and the inverter blew up [linerally] all the rest of
the failures were due to battery failure.

This begs a question that's been bugging me for years: why
doesn't somebody make a UPS that hooks up to a 12-v non-vented
automobile battery?

Automobile batteries are available at many different
price/quality points, they're pretty much a universal standard,
the capacity is there in spades, public knowledge about
maintaining/replacing them is widespread, and push-comes-to-shove
in an extended outage, the battery in somebody's car can be
swapped in for a few more hours working time.

I guess there has tb a reason... but what?

Automotive batteries are not well suited to long, continous drains
that the UPS would require. Using a deep cycle battery (such as a
trolling battery, or an RV battery, would work, but not optimal.)

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per PeterD:

Automotive batteries are not well suited to long, continous drains
that the UPS would require. Using a deep cycle battery (such as a
trolling battery, or an RV battery, would work, but not optimal.)

Is that to say with the first power outage and running the
battery to near-exhaustion (assuming there is a means to control
how far down it goes) that the battery would be damaged?
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Jeffrey Angus]

On 1/3/2011 8:22 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Per PeterD:
Automotive batteries are not well suited to long, continous drains
that the UPS would require. Using a deep cycle battery (such as a
trolling battery, or an RV battery, would work, but not optimal.)

Is that to say with the first power outage and running the
battery to near-exhaustion (assuming there is a means to control
how far down it goes) that the battery would be damaged?

In a word, possibly.

The construction of the plates in automotive vs marine (RV)
batteries are different. The Automotive battery is designed
to deliver large amount so f current for short periods of
time.

The marine batteries are designed to for a long term steady
and considerably lower) current draw.

Jeff

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeffrey Angus wrote:

On 1/3/2011 8:22 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per PeterD:
Automotive batteries are not well suited to long, continous drains
that the UPS would require. Using a deep cycle battery (such as a
trolling battery, or an RV battery, would work, but not optimal.)

Is that to say with the first power outage and running the
battery to near-exhaustion (assuming there is a means to control
how far down it goes) that the battery would be damaged?

In a word, possibly.

The construction of the plates in automotive vs marine (RV)
batteries are different. The Automotive battery is designed
to deliver large amount so f current for short periods of
time.

The marine batteries are designed to for a long term steady
and considerably lower) current draw.

The 12V batteries made for CATV UPS duty are made for high current
and deep cycle loads.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

 

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 10:01:46 -0600, Andrew Rossmann
<andysnewsreply@no_junk.comcast.net> wrote:

I have a battery I bought for an APC UPS about 4 years ago. I bought 2,
and used one immediately. I kept the other on the side as I have several
UPS's that use basically the same battery. Of course, over time, it has
discharged itself. I measured about 4.3V instead of the normal 12-13V. I
put it in a spare UPS, which immedialy complains if I try to turn it on.
Luckily, the UPS charges even when it is off, but slowly. I measured
about 15mA initially, and after about 36 hours, about 7.5mA. It is
currently up to about 10.7V.

How much damage do you think was done to the battery? I know it will
lose some capacity.

A charged but unused SLA should retain its charge for months. The
battery powered cars the grandkids love (got them on freecycle, not
new at $300 each) have 12 volt 10AH SLA batteries and typically get
charged twice a year (when the grandkids are here). I use a Black &
Decker charger that does 1 or2 amp charging (switch selected) and the
1 amp charge works well. The B&D charger is "smarter" than the
original charger which comes with a "do not charge more than X hours"
warning. Many UPS chargers are in the same category - they do a fast
charge to quickly replenish the battery after use, but there is no
"smart" monitoring. I've seen several different brands of small UPS
(300 watts or so) kill batteries in a year or less - even if unused.
The charging circuit simply cooks the battery.

Forget about using a UPS to charge a battery. Instead, buy a real
charger which won't destroy a bettery even if it's left on charge all
the time. For most UPS batteries, I would recommend the Black &
Decker Smart Battery Maintainer. It uses a switch mode power supply
and has LEDs for "charging" and "charge complete". The charger is $22
at amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-BM2B-Automatic-Maintainer/dp/B000AMOEPA
and I've seen it for about $20 at Target and Walmart. If you can find
the older version with the 1amp/2amp charge level switch, it's even
better on the smaller batteries.

Keep an SLA battery properly charged and it will last a very long
time. The electric cars are typically driven until they no longer
move, so the batteries get a full discharge at relatively high current
(5 amps on level driveway; 15 amps uphill - more if two kids in one
car). These batteries have been in service two years and seem to have
close to their original capacity.

John