Ultrasonic bath

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 19:20:00 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

This URL claims that the design is patented, hence my question:
http://www.codyson.net/cd-2800.html
There is sometimes a patent number on the rating sticker.

You are right. Finaly I found a patent number: 01301930.9 . But I found
nothing for this patent. May a chinese patent.

I found this URL for a "Model 2800: Miniature Ultrasonic Cleaner":
http://www.asiabt.net/tradeleads/default2.asp?Category=8&SubCategory=235

It makes the following certification claims:

Approval & Patent? - ETL approval of USA(No.3012617) - CE approval of
EU(No of LVD:H20211 S; No. of EMC:h20175) - GS approval of Germany(No
EG0203104) - Our patent No is:01301930.9

I tried searching for "Codyson" here ...

http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm

.... and found two appliances, but no useful data. :-(

This appears to be the PRC IPO database ...

http://ensearch.sipo.gov.cn/sipoensearch/search/tabSearch.do?method=init

.... but my searches produced nothing.

The power spec for your cleaner is 35W @ 110V and 50W @ 220V. That
seems on a par with the "professional" transducers above. <shrug

Don't trust the specification on chinese machines -especialy the inexpensive
ones-... The specifications says "power", I think it's the power
consumption!! On the other hand, it won't be surprise to be 20W...

How much power do you think a "buzzer" dissipates? ;-|

If the transducer is not consuming most of the power, then what is? Do
you think it is feasible for the appliance to consume 50W (or 20W) but
only deliver a small fraction of that to the transducer?

They all have a well defined resonant frequency.

Epoxy
glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank
should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible
not
resonance).

I also wondered about that. I don't have an answer, though.

I was thinking another aspect. At the first post, I said a 50% frequency
increase, in my mind I have the possibility of 100% increase. Even if the
"transducer" resonate to a frequency, it would resonate to the double
frequency too. With "transducer" I mean the transducer alone or the
combination of transducer/tank.

I will try to find the schematic anyway!

It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its
resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???).
I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at
the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't
that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer
with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at
its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some
components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure
resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would
need to be considered as well.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Samuel M. Goldwasser]

I may need a single 22V10-10 or -15 programmed. I thought my PAL programmer
was working but the burnt PAL behaves strangely in a way that suggests
it may have internal incorrect logic. It also doesn't pass the programmer's
test wiht respect to the test vectors (but I'm not sure that this ever
really worked properly).

I'll pay for the PAL or send a raw one and the .JED file to anyone who
might volunteer.

Or, if someone has a working programmer they'd like to sell.....

Thanks!

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On 16 Aug 2008 21:09:34 -0400, sam@seas.upenn.edu (Samuel M.
Goldwasser) put finger to keyboard and composed:

I may need a single 22V10-10 or -15 programmed. I thought my PAL programmer
was working but the burnt PAL behaves strangely in a way that suggests
it may have internal incorrect logic. It also doesn't pass the programmer's
test wiht respect to the test vectors (but I'm not sure that this ever
really worked properly).

I'll pay for the PAL or send a raw one and the .JED file to anyone who
might volunteer.

Or, if someone has a working programmer they'd like to sell.....

Thanks!

I have a Sunshine Expro-60 that has that particular PLD in its device
list. However, I'm in Australia.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Samuel M. Goldwasser]

Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> writes:

On 16 Aug 2008 21:09:34 -0400, sam@seas.upenn.edu (Samuel M.
Goldwasser) put finger to keyboard and composed:

I may need a single 22V10-10 or -15 programmed. I thought my PAL programmer
was working but the burnt PAL behaves strangely in a way that suggests
it may have internal incorrect logic. It also doesn't pass the programmer's
test wiht respect to the test vectors (but I'm not sure that this ever
really worked properly).

I'll pay for the PAL or send a raw one and the .JED file to anyone who
might volunteer.

Or, if someone has a working programmer they'd like to sell.....

Thanks!

I have a Sunshine Expro-60 that has that particular PLD in its device
list. However, I'm in Australia.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Well, if you could email the programmed part...

Actually, I think I found a problem in the logic so this may be a
non-issue. Tow pins swapped. It was my lack of confidence in
the programmed more than anything. It's an INLAB28, 20 years old, and
I know there were always problems with CUPL and the programmer not
using the same squence to do the test vectors. but being 20 years
old, my memory is probably more fuzzy than that of the programmer!

Thanks!

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[Yianni]

Hello Franc,

I found this URL for a "Model 2800: Miniature Ultrasonic Cleaner":
http://www.asiabt.net/tradeleads/default2.asp?Category=8&SubCategory=235

I found the same url. In this the Karin Co. Ltd claims it produces this same
model...
I insist, don't rely to chinese specifications, claims, etc. China is a
country without copyright law at all. China is "selected" to produce
imitation procucts, that's why no copyright law. If you see specifications
saying: 50W, 42kHz, CE approval, patent no., etc, no surprise if you get:
10W, 25kHz, no CE, no patent at all... Inside China, there is no punishment
for a company if it uses CE, ETL, GS approvals signs if it has no approvals.
They can make Rolex, Lacoste, or any imitation with no fear.

The other ultrasonic with the conventional buzzer (20mm diametre, less than
1mm thick) claims 30W!!!
Now, I understand the difference with a "real" ultrasonic with two "real"
transducers I have had. Time comparison for the same cleaning results:
a. Real ultrasonic 60W : 0.5 min
b. the ultrasonic we talk (50W) : 9 min
c. the other ultrasonic with the buzzer (30W) : > 25 min...

It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its
resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???).

Yes, I thouhgt the second overtone.

I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at
the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't
that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer
with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at
its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some
components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure
resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would
need to be considered as well.

I don't know to say if it's correct or not. I'm just thinking.
1.. The transducer (ceramic ultrasonic transduder, like a bigger buzzer) it
has a mass of say 25g. It is glued on the tank, say 100g. And the tank is
filled with water 400-600g. I wonder for its resonance frequency.
2.. Just a question because I don't know. Could someone take a conventional
small buzzer and make a circuit to work on the buzzer's resonace frequency,
relying on the buzzer's characteristics without RC or other similar parts on
the oscilator? If yes, then it is a possibility to be the same in this
machine.

I will try to find the schematic, and I will send a message.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:26:53 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

The other ultrasonic with the conventional buzzer (20mm diametre, less than
1mm thick) claims 30W!!!
Now, I understand the difference with a "real" ultrasonic with two "real"
transducers I have had. Time comparison for the same cleaning results:
a. Real ultrasonic 60W : 0.5 min
b. the ultrasonic we talk (50W) : 9 min
c. the other ultrasonic with the buzzer (30W) : > 25 min...

Look at it another way. Why would you need a 7 amp relay to supply
power to a "buzzer"? Why would you need such a large heatsink and two
high current (?) transistors?

I suggest you buy something like this ...

http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html

.... and measure the power consumption for yourself.

It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its
resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???).

Yes, I thouhgt the second overtone.


I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at
the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't
that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer
with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at
its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some
components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure
resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would
need to be considered as well.

I don't know to say if it's correct or not. I'm just thinking.
1.. The transducer (ceramic ultrasonic transduder, like a bigger buzzer) it
has a mass of say 25g. It is glued on the tank, say 100g. And the tank is
filled with water 400-600g. I wonder for its resonance frequency.
2.. Just a question because I don't know. Could someone take a conventional
small buzzer and make a circuit to work on the buzzer's resonace frequency,
relying on the buzzer's characteristics without RC or other similar parts on
the oscilator? If yes, then it is a possibility to be the same in this
machine.

I had another look at the following patent. It suggests that a simple
change to your circuit may enable your transducer to resonate at the
first overtone (see Fig 3 of the PDF file). It also confirms that the
resonant frequency is dependent on the mass of water.

OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html

The author states that "since the piezoelectric disc is closely
coupled to the tank and the water load, the water depth in the tank
effects the power transferred to the water and the resonant frequency
of the transducer".

"On all ultrasonic cleaning systems, some means must be employed to
control the frequency at which the generator drives the transducer. If
the generator is made to operate at a fixed frequency, poor
performance will be encountered, since it is generally not possible to
select one frequency which will always provide optimum operating
conditions."

"In the case of an ultrasonic generator, one is concerned with the
behaviour of a piezoelectric transducer at the fundamental and perhaps
the lower order overtone frequencies."

This part looks very interesting:

====================================================================
The preference the circuit shows in operating in the vicinity of some
initially selected frequency is also desirable in suppressing
tendencies to run at overtone frequencies. In some circumstances,
however, this effect might not be great enough to completely prevent
operation at the overtone. For instance, if the series resonant
impedance of the fundamental frequency is slightly greater than at the
first overtone, the circuit preference for lower impedance could take
precedence and result in operation at the overtone were the shunt
capacitor 86 not employed.

Since the capacitor 86 is connected across the feedback transformer
primary, its capacitive reactance lowers the impedance to overtone
frequencies. This results in a lower primary voltage or, more
directly, an increase in core saturation time. Thus, any tendencies to
run an overtone are adequately suppressed, forcing the circuit to run
at the fundamental.

In the example given, it is desirable to operate at the fundamental
frequency. Nevertheless, if operation at an overtone is desired, this
may be accomplished by suitable selection of circuit elements and
constants, and the principles of the invention may be employed to
enhance operation at the preferred overtone.
====================================================================

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[mike]

Yianni wrote:

Hi,
I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want
to increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I
should change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My
knowledge in electronics is low.

Some details: The ic is the 555, for on/off and timer purposes,
including the relay and the small trnasistor. The above left part (in
reference to Photo 017.jpg) is the AC input, and the upper part the
AC-->DC. The transformer drives the transducer. The low part is the
oscillator (two transistors, some resistors 1 and 1/2W, a few capacitors
and two diodes). The torroidal transformer I don't know what it does.

Does anyone know which parts to change? I don't know to change the
transformer if it needed. I will try with the same transformer. Output
wattage is not significant.

http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20017.jpg
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20015.jpg
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20018.jpg
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20007.jpg


Thank you

This thread sure has a lot of "fuss" over something that can be

EASILY measured. Stick a signal generator and scope (or voltmeter) on it.
That'll tell you what you can expect.

 

[Yianni]

Hello Franc,

These info are useful and they explain to me much about ultrasonics.
Now, all explained!!! I can understand that transducer/tank/water can
affect the resonant frequency. That's why the noise is different when the
tank is full or half empty; some times it works much away from the resonate
frequency because it makes louder noise (I feel it). It seems, it works in a
steady frequency.

I understand that needs the schematic someone to know how to increase the
frequency. In the first I thought it would be easy someone to recognize the
design. Seeing that the final transformer has only 3 pins, and the fact that
the mains supply direct the transducer (as you said amplitude modulated) I
understand the design should be more complicated. After all that, I closed
the ultrasonic leaving it working the usual way!





"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:j33ha4dsomdho2g8otk7don2seju50q7g2@4ax.com...

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:26:53 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

The other ultrasonic with the conventional buzzer (20mm diametre, less
than
1mm thick) claims 30W!!!
Now, I understand the difference with a "real" ultrasonic with two "real"
transducers I have had. Time comparison for the same cleaning results:
a. Real ultrasonic 60W : 0.5 min
b. the ultrasonic we talk (50W) : 9 min
c. the other ultrasonic with the buzzer (30W) : > 25 min...

Look at it another way. Why would you need a 7 amp relay to supply
power to a "buzzer"? Why would you need such a large heatsink and two
high current (?) transistors?

I suggest you buy something like this ...

http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html

... and measure the power consumption for yourself.

It makes no sense to say that a transducer can "resonate" at twice its
resonant frequency (unless you are talking about overtones maybe ???).

Yes, I thouhgt the second overtone.


I'm guessing that the cleaner's circuit automatically oscillates at
the transducer's resonant frequency, ie the external components aren't
that critical. I suspect that if you were to replace the transducer
with a higher frequency type, the new transducer would oscillate at
its own resonant frequency, not 42kHz. You may need to optimise some
components, though, to ensure that the transducer looks like a pure
resistance. The frequency characteristics of the ferrite toroid would
need to be considered as well.

I don't know to say if it's correct or not. I'm just thinking.
1.. The transducer (ceramic ultrasonic transduder, like a bigger buzzer)
it
has a mass of say 25g. It is glued on the tank, say 100g. And the tank is
filled with water 400-600g. I wonder for its resonance frequency.
2.. Just a question because I don't know. Could someone take a
conventional
small buzzer and make a circuit to work on the buzzer's resonace
frequency,
relying on the buzzer's characteristics without RC or other similar parts
on
the oscilator? If yes, then it is a possibility to be the same in this
machine.

I had another look at the following patent. It suggests that a simple
change to your circuit may enable your transducer to resonate at the
first overtone (see Fig 3 of the PDF file). It also confirms that the
resonant frequency is dependent on the mass of water.

OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html

The author states that "since the piezoelectric disc is closely
coupled to the tank and the water load, the water depth in the tank
effects the power transferred to the water and the resonant frequency
of the transducer".

"On all ultrasonic cleaning systems, some means must be employed to
control the frequency at which the generator drives the transducer. If
the generator is made to operate at a fixed frequency, poor
performance will be encountered, since it is generally not possible to
select one frequency which will always provide optimum operating
conditions."

"In the case of an ultrasonic generator, one is concerned with the
behaviour of a piezoelectric transducer at the fundamental and perhaps
the lower order overtone frequencies."

This part looks very interesting:

====================================================================
The preference the circuit shows in operating in the vicinity of some
initially selected frequency is also desirable in suppressing
tendencies to run at overtone frequencies. In some circumstances,
however, this effect might not be great enough to completely prevent
operation at the overtone. For instance, if the series resonant
impedance of the fundamental frequency is slightly greater than at the
first overtone, the circuit preference for lower impedance could take
precedence and result in operation at the overtone were the shunt
capacitor 86 not employed.

Since the capacitor 86 is connected across the feedback transformer
primary, its capacitive reactance lowers the impedance to overtone
frequencies. This results in a lower primary voltage or, more
directly, an increase in core saturation time. Thus, any tendencies to
run an overtone are adequately suppressed, forcing the circuit to run
at the fundamental.

In the example given, it is desirable to operate at the fundamental
frequency. Nevertheless, if operation at an overtone is desired, this
may be accomplished by suitable selection of circuit elements and
constants, and the principles of the invention may be employed to
enhance operation at the preferred overtone.
====================================================================

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Samuel M. Goldwasser]

Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> writes:

On 14 Aug 2008 19:30:19 -0400, sam@seas.upenn.edu (Samuel M.
Goldwasser) put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> writes:

If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they
all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor
oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is
dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I
think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural
oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with
external components, ie it makes no sense.

Well, he could go lower by adding mass to it. Higher? Chip off a piece?

In all honesty, I was going to suggest something along those lines,
assuming it is at all feasible. Years ago I had a problem with a 25MHz
crystal that had begun to oscillate at a higher frequency (not an
overtone). I suspect that either a piece had chipped off as a result
of an accident, or maybe a dag that was present during the trimming
process finally fell off in normal usage.

Alternatively, the OP might try procuring a ready-made replacement:
http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/PZT-Transducer-cleaner.htm

For example, the ANN-2560 is rated at 59kHz and 25W.

We don't even know what he wants to do with it. Maybe for
somniluminescence or cold fusion!

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Yianni]

Thank you for your time.

Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can
sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ...

I don't know, I suspect not because is an inexpensive chinese model.

Here are some examples:

OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5109174.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5534741.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3937236.html

I took a look on them. It seems that none resembles the design of mine
ultrasonic.

If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they
all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor
oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is
dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I
think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural
oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with
external components, ie it makes no sense.

The transducer is not as these you referred to the other post. These
transducers are the "professional" transducers. This in the specific
ultrasonic cleaner is more like a buzzer than a conventional transducer.
It's diametre is twice than a conventional buzzer. Of course there is a
small possibility to resonate to a specific frequency, but I think not. The
reason for that, is that another model has just a NORMAL buzzer same as this
for beeps. Of course both ultrasonic cleaners -I mentioned- are inexpensive
chinese models with low power. A "normal" ultrasonic cleaner I have had, in
15 seconds it cleaned the same as these cheap cleaners in 5 minutes.

This is the "big" buzzer http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20021.jpg . Epoxy
glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank
should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible not
resonance).
The green area is not the oscillator
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20019.jpg .