Ultrasonic bath

[Yianni]

Hi,
I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to
increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I should
change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My knowledge in
electronics is low.

Some details: The ic is the 555, for on/off and timer purposes, including
the relay and the small trnasistor. The above left part (in reference to
Photo 017.jpg) is the AC input, and the upper part the AC-->DC. The
transformer drives the transducer. The low part is the oscillator (two
transistors, some resistors 1 and 1/2W, a few capacitors and two diodes).
The torroidal transformer I don't know what it does.

Does anyone know which parts to change? I don't know to change the
transformer if it needed. I will try with the same transformer. Output
wattage is not significant.

http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20017.jpg
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20015.jpg
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20018.jpg
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20007.jpg


Thank you

--
Yianni
9jir_2006@yahoo.gr
(Remove the number nine from my email address to send me email)

 

[PeterD]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 04:31:49 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr>
wrote:

Hi,
I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to
increase it to about 50%.

'it' being frequency? If so, I doubt it: the transducer is resonate
and would have to be replaced.

'it' being power? If so, I doubt it: the transucer is only going to be
able to handle a certain amount of power before failing.

>I expect about 15W output.

 

[Yianni]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mK2dnTk89dAwWT_VnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If
you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced.

I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific one.
On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change?

--
Yianni
9jir_2006@yahoo.gr
(Remove the number nine from my email address to send me email)

 

[Yianni]

Just to say what I meant. The specific transducer is inexpencive one, most
like a "buzzer" than a conventional transducer. I have seen some other
ultrasonic baths involving just a buzzer!!
I don't care for the power, even if it reduced at 10%.

 

[Samuel M. Goldwasser]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> writes:

"Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
news:1218677883.639830@athprx04...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mK2dnTk89dAwWT_VnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency.
If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced.

I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific
one.
On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change?


I'm going to be nasty. What needs changing is your attitude.

Why are you wasting our time? You haven't supplied a manufacturer or a model
number, or a place to find a schematic. Why do you think anyone would have
the knowledge to suggest a specific change for an unknown product?

Furthermore, the answers I and others gave were "reasonable" in the context
of the question you asked and the overall design of such products.

If you know so much about the unit, modify it yourself.

To be a bit more diplomatic , the OP did supply photos of the PCB.

But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure
out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps"
don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what
the components do.

If the OP would do that and post a schematic, or even a partial
schematic, then someone should be able to help.

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[PeterD]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:32:44 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr>
wrote:

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mK2dnTk89dAwWT_VnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency. If
you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced.



I don't think the transducer is so high resonant.

Your first three words are correct. The remainder of the statement is
not. It is very resonant.

At least the specific one.
On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change?

 

[PeterD]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:41:50 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

"Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
news:1218677883.639830@athprx04...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mK2dnTk89dAwWT_VnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency.
If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced.

I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific
one.
On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to change?


I'm going to be nasty. What needs changing is your attitude.

Why are you wasting our time? You haven't supplied a manufacturer or a model
number, or a place to find a schematic. Why do you think anyone would have
the knowledge to suggest a specific change for an unknown product?

Furthermore, the answers I and others gave were "reasonable" in the context
of the question you asked and the overall design of such products.

If you know so much about the unit, modify it yourself.

Horse... Dead... Beating... Stop!

 

[Yianni]

Thank you for your reply.

But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure
out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps"
don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what
the components do.

You are right. I tried to find the schematic on internet with no luck. If I
try to trace the schematic it will take much time, because I don't have much
knowledge in electronics, none in oscillators. For me, it will take two
days... I'm sure, you know, someone without knowledge may needs 20 or 50
times more time and effort to find what he wants.
If you could guide me to trace a very small part, I will.
The model is the CD-2800, CODYSON (China) is the manufacturer.
The only info I found on internet are the following. I don't know Russian, I
tried to register but it has a quiz of 15 questions:
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=123710
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showpost.php?p=128953&postcount=228
Registration --> http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/register.php

p.s. If the above forum has the schematic, may it worth to find it first.

--
Yianni
9jir_2006@yahoo.gr
(Remove the number nine from my email address to send me email)




"Samuel M. Goldwasser" <sam@seas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
newsd3vsr84.fsf@seas.upenn.edu...

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> writes:

"Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> wrote in message
news:1218677883.639830@athprx04...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mK2dnTk89dAwWT_VnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

The transducer is probably highly resonant at the operating frequency.
If you change the frequency, output is likely to be greatly reduced.

I don't think the transducer is so high resonant. At least the specific
one.
On the other hand, I would like to try. Do you know which parts to
change?


I'm going to be nasty. What needs changing is your attitude.

Why are you wasting our time? You haven't supplied a manufacturer or a
model
number, or a place to find a schematic. Why do you think anyone would
have
the knowledge to suggest a specific change for an unknown product?

Furthermore, the answers I and others gave were "reasonable" in the
context
of the question you asked and the overall design of such products.

If you know so much about the unit, modify it yourself.

To be a bit more diplomatic , the OP did supply photos of the PCB.

But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure
out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps"
don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what
the components do.

If the OP would do that and post a schematic, or even a partial
schematic, then someone should be able to help.

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above
is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included
in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:49:17 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Thank you for your reply.

But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure
out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps"
don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what
the components do.

You are right. I tried to find the schematic on internet with no luck. If I
try to trace the schematic it will take much time, because I don't have much
knowledge in electronics, none in oscillators. For me, it will take two
days... I'm sure, you know, someone without knowledge may needs 20 or 50
times more time and effort to find what he wants.
If you could guide me to trace a very small part, I will.
The model is the CD-2800, CODYSON (China) is the manufacturer.
The only info I found on internet are the following. I don't know Russian, I
tried to register but it has a quiz of 15 questions:
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=123710
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showpost.php?p=128953&postcount=228
Registration --> http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/register.php

p.s. If the above forum has the schematic, may it worth to find it first.

Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can
sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ...

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/search.html

Here are some examples:

OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5109174.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5534741.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3937236.html

If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they
all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor
oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is
dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I
think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural
oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with
external components, ie it makes no sense.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Samuel M. Goldwasser]

"Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> writes:

Thank you for your reply.

But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure
out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps"
don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what
the components do.

You are right. I tried to find the schematic on internet with no
luck. If I try to trace the schematic it will take much time, because
I don't have much knowledge in electronics, none in oscillators. For
me, it will take two days... I'm sure, you know, someone without
knowledge may needs 20 or 50 times more time and effort to find what
he wants.
If you could guide me to trace a very small part, I will.
The model is the CD-2800, CODYSON (China) is the manufacturer.
The only info I found on internet are the following. I don't know
Russian, I tried to register but it has a quiz of 15 questions:
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=123710
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showpost.php?p=128953&postcount=228
Registration --> http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/register.php
p.s. If the above forum has the schematic, may it worth to find it first.

Yeah, I despise those sites..... Although in all fairness, some have
useful information or downloads.

Whether they have a schematic? Could be, but it could just be someone
else asking....

There's probably a pair of power transistors or MOSFETs that's a power
oscillator. If you trace around that area, it could help. But
no guarantees. But assuming it is resonant, that may be part of
what determines the frequency.

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[Samuel M. Goldwasser]

Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> writes:

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:49:17 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Thank you for your reply.

But, someone would have to take a fair amount of time to try to figure
out which parts control frequency from looking at it. "Blue caps"
don't mean anything - one has to trace the circuit to determine what
the components do.

You are right. I tried to find the schematic on internet with no luck. If I
try to trace the schematic it will take much time, because I don't have much
knowledge in electronics, none in oscillators. For me, it will take two
days... I'm sure, you know, someone without knowledge may needs 20 or 50
times more time and effort to find what he wants.
If you could guide me to trace a very small part, I will.
The model is the CD-2800, CODYSON (China) is the manufacturer.
The only info I found on internet are the following. I don't know Russian, I
tried to register but it has a quiz of 15 questions:
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=123710
http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/showpost.php?p=128953&postcount=228
Registration --> http://www.mcrf.ru/forum/register.php

p.s. If the above forum has the schematic, may it worth to find it first.

Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can
sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ...

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/search.html

Here are some examples:

OSCILLATOR CIRCUIT FOR AN ULTRASONIC CLEANER
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3584244.html

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5109174.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5534741.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3937236.html

If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they
all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor
oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is
dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I
think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural
oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with
external components, ie it makes no sense.

Well, he could go lower by adding mass to it. Higher? Chip off a piece?

--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

 

[Ken G.]

What are you ``ultrasonicing`` ? With todays good cleaning products i
use my ultrasonic way less these days

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On 14 Aug 2008 19:30:19 -0400, sam@seas.upenn.edu (Samuel M.
Goldwasser) put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> writes:

If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they
all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor
oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is
dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I
think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural
oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with
external components, ie it makes no sense.

Well, he could go lower by adding mass to it. Higher? Chip off a piece?

In all honesty, I was going to suggest something along those lines,
assuming it is at all feasible. Years ago I had a problem with a 25MHz
crystal that had begun to oscillate at a higher frequency (not an
overtone). I suspect that either a piece had chipped off as a result
of an accident, or maybe a dag that was present during the trimming
process finally fell off in normal usage.

Alternatively, the OP might try procuring a ready-made replacement:
http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/PZT-Transducer-cleaner.htm

For example, the ANN-2560 is rated at 59kHz and 25W.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Dave W]

On 13 Aug, 02:31, "Yianni" <9jir_2...@yahoo.gr> wrote:

Hi,
I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to
increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I should
change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My knowledge in
electronics is low.

WHY do you want to increase the frequency?

Dave W

 

[Yianni]

"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:67257ab9-7370-40d7-92d9-01173a74a48d@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

On 13 Aug, 02:31, "Yianni" <9jir_2...@yahoo.gr> wrote:
Hi,
I have a small ultrasonic cleaner. It's frequency is 40kHz, and I want to
increase it to about 50%. I expect about 15W output. Which parts I should
change? I suspect the two blue capacitors, but I'm not sure. My knowledge
in
electronics is low.


WHY do you want to increase the frequency?

Dave W

The higher the frequency the less cleaning power. But... in higher
frequencies, the cleaning power it reaches to smaller cavities, etc (for
parts with holes, etc). I want to do a test for specific parts.


--
Yianni
9jir_2006@yahoo.gr
(Remove the number nine from my email address to send me email)

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:41:23 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Just to say what I meant. The specific transducer is inexpencive one, most
like a "buzzer" than a conventional transducer. I have seen some other
ultrasonic baths involving just a buzzer!!
I don't care for the power, even if it reduced at 10%.

I don't know if this will be relevant to a 40kHz transducer being
driven at 60kHz (if that's possible), but the 59kHz transducer in the
following product range has a rated power of 25W whereas the 40kHz
transducer with the same impedance is rated for 40W.

http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/PZT-Transducer-cleaner.htm

BTW, on closer examination of the circuit, it appears to me that the
LM555 is switching a relay which in turn switches rectified but
unfiltered mains voltage to the oscillator. I suspect that the piezo
element determines the frequency of oscillation, and this oscillation
appears to be amplitude modulated by the 120Hz/100Hz mains.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Yianni]

BTW, on closer examination of the circuit, it appears to me that the
LM555 is switching a relay which in turn switches rectified but
unfiltered mains voltage to the oscillator. I suspect that the piezo
element determines the frequency of oscillation, and this oscillation
appears to be amplitude modulated by the 120Hz/100Hz mains.

Yes, the 555 is switching the relay (on/off).

I don't know what exactly this design is, but it seems you are right. The
transformer has three pins. Two of them drive the transducer, and the other
one is connected to the mains power. Parallel to the driving coil there is a
capacitor.
In the first I thought a simpler design. Now, I think the schematic is
needed.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 05:20:21 +0300, "Yianni" <9jir_2006@yahoo.gr> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Is there is a patent reference on the label? If so, then you can
sometimes find a how-it-works explanation at ...

I don't know, I suspect not because is an inexpensive chinese model.

This URL claims that the design is patented, hence my question:
http://www.codyson.net/cd-2800.html

There is sometimes a patent number on the rating sticker.

If you read the text of the various inventions, it appears that they
all use a 40kHz piezoelectric transducer driven by a two-transistor
oscillator. One patent states that "the oscillation frequency is
dependent mainly upon the characteristics of the piezo element". I
think what you are trying to do is akin to changing the natural
oscillation frequency of a quartz crystal by playing around with
external components, ie it makes no sense.

The transducer is not as these you referred to the other post. These
transducers are the "professional" transducers. This in the specific
ultrasonic cleaner is more like a buzzer than a conventional transducer.
It's diametre is twice than a conventional buzzer. Of course there is a
small possibility to resonate to a specific frequency, but I think not. The
reason for that, is that another model has just a NORMAL buzzer same as this
for beeps. Of course both ultrasonic cleaners -I mentioned- are inexpensive
chinese models with low power. A "normal" ultrasonic cleaner I have had, in
15 seconds it cleaned the same as these cheap cleaners in 5 minutes.

The power spec for your cleaner is 35W @ 110V and 50W @ 220V. That
seems on a par with the "professional" transducers above. <shrug>

This is the "big" buzzer http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20021.jpg .

How about these "buzzer" shaped transducers:
http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/PZT-ultrasonic-cleaner.htm

They all have a well defined resonant frequency.

Epoxy
glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank
should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible not
resonance).

I also wondered about that. I don't have an answer, though.

The green area is not the oscillator
http://www.inkline.gr/temp/Photo%20019.jpg .

Yes I am aware of that.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Yianni]

This URL claims that the design is patented, hence my question:
http://www.codyson.net/cd-2800.html
There is sometimes a patent number on the rating sticker.

You are right. Finaly I found a patent number: 01301930.9 . But I found
nothing for this patent. May a chinese patent.

The power spec for your cleaner is 35W @ 110V and 50W @ 220V. That
seems on a par with the "professional" transducers above. <shrug

Don't trust the specification on chinese machines -especialy the inexpensive
ones-... The specifications says "power", I think it's the power
consumption!! On the other hand, it won't be surprise to be 20W...

They all have a well defined resonant frequency.

Epoxy
glue (black) is used to fit on the metal tank. The glue and the metal tank
should decrease much the resonate frequency. (Another fact for possible
not
resonance).

I also wondered about that. I don't have an answer, though.

I was thinking another aspect. At the first post, I said a 50% frequency
increase, in my mind I have the possibility of 100% increase. Even if the
"transducer" resonate to a frequency, it would resonate to the double
frequency too. With "transducer" I mean the transducer alone or the
combination of transducer/tank.

I will try to find the schematic anyway!

 

[Yianni]

How about these "buzzer" shaped transducers:
http://www.annon-piezo.com/product/PZT-ultrasonic-cleaner.htm

The photos are small, I can't understand. The buzzer/transducer of the
ultrasonic is: diametre 40mm (1.5"), thickness 4mm (0.15"). The "normal"
transducers are about 1000g weight, the specific I suppose about 25g.