UK Phone line question...

[TTman]

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

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[server]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:23:59 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If it\'s a coax, you can force an audio-frequency current into the
shield (it\'s probably grounded somewhere out there) and snoop for the
magnetic field. I\'ve found wires inside walls, by listening for the 60
Hz field when there was current in the wires.

It would probably work with an unshielded pair, too.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On 8/29/20 9:23 AM, TTman wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

Silly questions first. Will the utility company do it?
Is there a tool rental company that has underground wire locators
somewhere close?
This article mentions using an AM radio to find invisible fencing for
pets. NO idea about how well it would work or if it\'s suitable for the
wire you want to locate. Just an idle thought.
<https://www.hunker.com/13424986/how-to-find-buried-invisible-fencing>

 

[TTman]

On 29/08/2020 15:54, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:23:59 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If it\'s a coax, you can force an audio-frequency current into the
shield (it\'s probably grounded somewhere out there) and snoop for the
magnetic field. I\'ve found wires inside walls, by listening for the 60
Hz field when there was current in the wires.

It would probably work with an unshielded pair, too.

UK uses 2 twisted pairs( 1 is spare for residential use) in plastic
outer. No shield.

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[TTman]

     Silly questions first.   Will the utility company do it?

They may do, at a \'silly\' price...

Is there a tool rental company that has underground wire locators
somewhere close?
 This article mentions using an AM radio to find invisible fencing for
pets.  NO idea about how well it would work or if it\'s suitable for the
wire you want to locate.  Just an idle thought.
https://www.hunker.com/13424986/how-to-find-buried-invisible-fencing

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[server]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:34:57 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:

On 29/08/2020 15:54, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:23:59 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If it\'s a coax, you can force an audio-frequency current into the
shield (it\'s probably grounded somewhere out there) and snoop for the
magnetic field. I\'ve found wires inside walls, by listening for the 60
Hz field when there was current in the wires.

It would probably work with an unshielded pair, too.



UK uses 2 twisted pairs( 1 is spare for residential use) in plastic
outer. No shield.

You can probably force AC current into at least one wire. Audio amp
and a series capacitor maybe.

There is probably some wire tracing gadget that you can buy, if you
don\'t want to do it all yourself. Looks like Amazon has a bunch.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Tim Williams]

They don\'t have commercials for the equivalent of \"call before your dig\" on
the TV all the time over there..?! Hard to avoid over here. Please check
the web, or the phone book, before planning something so reckless!

Seems to be something like this over there,
https://www.national-one-call.co.uk/

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

\"TTman\" <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ridodv$rnl$1@dont-email.me...

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[Ricketty C]

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 11:35:57 AM UTC-4, TTman wrote:

     Silly questions first.   Will the utility company do it?

They may do, at a \'silly\' price...

Around here it\'s free, Miss Utility. They don\'t want you mucking up their wiring either. Are you sure they charge for that?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:34:57 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

On 29/08/2020 15:54, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:23:59 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to
the house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a
metal detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable
runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that
way... Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If it\'s a coax, you can force an audio-frequency current into the
shield (it\'s probably grounded somewhere out there) and snoop for
the magnetic field. I\'ve found wires inside walls, by listening for
the 60 Hz field when there was current in the wires.

It would probably work with an unshielded pair, too.



UK uses 2 twisted pairs( 1 is spare for residential use) in plastic
outer. No shield.

You can probably force AC current into at least one wire. Audio amp
and a series capacitor maybe.

There is probably some wire tracing gadget that you can buy, if you
don\'t want to do it all yourself. Looks like Amazon has a bunch.

Those sense E fields because they find network wires with one end
disconnected. The main objective in using those is to find the connector
at the other end when you have an array of 1000 jacks, so you can\'t put
a load on the far end until after you find it. Each twisted pair is
isolated in the networking case they are designed for. Consequently
there can be no current, and they don\'t sense anything beyond a couple
of inches. The most sensitive ones work to about 6 inches. Most of them
don\'t work even at zero distance if there is a device plugged into the
other end because it might allow current but it keeps the voltage down.

Could you sense E fields farther out?

 

[John Doe]

\"Tim Williams\" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

They don\'t have commercials for the equivalent of \"call before
your dig\" on the TV all the time over there..?! Hard to avoid
over here. Please check the web, or the phone book, before
planning something so reckless!

Seems to be something like this over there,
https://www.national-one-call.co.uk/

That makes sense. Apparently he doesn\'t even know whether they will
charge for the help. May as well ask. At least here in the US,
doubtful they would prohibit you from improving your property just
because of their cables, if that\'s what he\'s afraid of.

 

[Grant Taylor]

On 8/29/20 8:23 AM, TTman wrote:
> Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?

I\'ve used -- what we called -- a \"tone generator\" and \"receiver\" many
times to do this type of thing inside buildings.

https://www.specialized.net/test-equipment/cable-testers/tone-generators-probes.html

I\'m sure that something like that, or a bigger version if it, could
work. You might even be able to rent one as opposed to buying it.

I don\'t know how well the smaller units that I used would work through
concrete. But I do know that with a fresh battery I could detect
through walls multiple feet away. I usually had to turn the volume up
quite a bit to hear a faint signal and then as I got closer turn the
volume down to be able to differentiate as I got closer.

> I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

You should be able to repair the cable fairly easily yourself if that
happens. Even a bad splice (involving wire nuts and electrical tape) is
better than an open. Your broadband might be slower, but should still
function while waiting on the phone company to do a more proper repair.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On 8/29/20 9:23 AM, TTman wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

A couple more silly questions.
Would it cost much to have a spare cable laid out in case you do cut
the existing one? Would the utility let you reconnect both ends yourself?

 

[server]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:03:34 -0400, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
<fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:34:57 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

On 29/08/2020 15:54, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:23:59 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to
the house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a
metal detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable
runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that
way... Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If it\'s a coax, you can force an audio-frequency current into the
shield (it\'s probably grounded somewhere out there) and snoop for
the magnetic field. I\'ve found wires inside walls, by listening for
the 60 Hz field when there was current in the wires.

It would probably work with an unshielded pair, too.



UK uses 2 twisted pairs( 1 is spare for residential use) in plastic
outer. No shield.

You can probably force AC current into at least one wire. Audio amp
and a series capacitor maybe.

There is probably some wire tracing gadget that you can buy, if you
don\'t want to do it all yourself. Looks like Amazon has a bunch.

Those sense E fields because they find network wires with one end
disconnected. The main objective in using those is to find the connector
at the other end when you have an array of 1000 jacks, so you can\'t put
a load on the far end until after you find it. Each twisted pair is
isolated in the networking case they are designed for. Consequently
there can be no current, and they don\'t sense anything beyond a couple
of inches. The most sensitive ones work to about 6 inches. Most of them
don\'t work even at zero distance if there is a device plugged into the
other end because it might allow current but it keeps the voltage down.

Could you sense E fields farther out?

An underground wire won\'t generate useful e-fields. Magnetic fields
would work if the wires aren\'t too deep. As someone suggested, call
the phone company.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[server]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:34:57 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:

On 29/08/2020 15:54, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:23:59 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If it\'s a coax, you can force an audio-frequency current into the
shield (it\'s probably grounded somewhere out there) and snoop for the
magnetic field. I\'ve found wires inside walls, by listening for the 60
Hz field when there was current in the wires.

It would probably work with an unshielded pair, too.



UK uses 2 twisted pairs( 1 is spare for residential use) in plastic
outer. No shield.

What sorts of data rates do you get over an unshielded buried twisted
pair?

I\'m getting 120/40 Mbits at home from the cable TV provider, which is
shockingly better than what we got over old soggy twisted pairs from
AT&T.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 29/08/20 16:34, TTman wrote:

On 29/08/2020 15:54, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:23:59 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com
wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If it\'s a coax, you can force an audio-frequency current into the
shield (it\'s probably grounded somewhere out there) and snoop for the
magnetic field. I\'ve found wires inside walls, by listening for the 60
Hz field when there was current in the wires.

It would probably work with an unshielded pair, too.



UK uses 2 twisted pairs( 1 is spare for residential use) in plastic outer. No
shield.

About 8 years ago I caught them removing the buried cable
outside my mother\'s house in a big well-connected city.

It was enamalled wire with wax paper insulation, and a
lead sheath. They gave me ~1ft of it, as a curio, conversation
piece, and cosh.

They are now installing fibre to the pole.

 

[TTman]

I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

You should be able to repair the cable fairly easily yourself if that
happens.  Even a bad splice (involving wire nuts and electrical tape) is
better than an open.  Your broadband might be slower, but should still
function while waiting on the phone company to do a more proper repair.



That seems a plan...

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[TTman]

On 29/08/2020 17:15, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On 8/29/20 9:23 AM, TTman wrote:
I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

     A couple more silly questions.
  Would it cost much to have a spare cable laid out in case you do cut
the existing one?  Would the utility let you reconnect both ends yourself?

Residential cables are supplied as at least two twisted pairs in case
one goes O/C. Sometimes it\'s 4 pairs... Saves pulling a new cable. In
\'old\' installations, they burried the cable in the ground when houses
were built. Now they put them inside tubular trunking so a new cable can
be pulled through....same for fibre/coax.

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[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 29. august 2020 kl. 18.11.33 UTC+2 skrev Grant Taylor:

You should be able to repair the cable fairly easily yourself if that
happens. Even a bad splice (involving wire nuts and electrical tape) is
better than an open. Your broadband might be slower, but should still
function while waiting on the phone company to do a more proper repair.

being prepared to repair it is probably the best guarantee against cutting it

 

[Don Y]

On 8/29/2020 11:29 AM, TTman wrote:

On 29/08/2020 17:15, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/29/20 9:23 AM, TTman wrote:
I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the house
runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal detector to no
avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

A couple more silly questions.
Would it cost much to have a spare cable laid out in case you do cut the
existing one? Would the utility let you reconnect both ends yourself?

Residential cables are supplied as at least two twisted pairs in case one goes
O/C. Sometimes it\'s 4 pairs... Saves pulling a new cable. In \'old\'
installations, they burried the cable in the ground when houses were built. Now
they put them inside tubular trunking so a new cable can be pulled
through....same for fibre/coax.

The failure, here, is more commonly a reduced impedance to ground as water
eventually infiltrates the cable. Phone line does not require burial in
\"shaded\" ditches so ground subsidence leads to all sorts of wondrous
surprises!

When requesting new service, TPC just lays the new cable on TOP of the
ground, waiting for their crews to come along at a later date. I.e.,
that\'s an alternative for you if you shoot yourself in the foot and
don\'t want to live without network access. (lay cable in expansion joint
and cover with a layer of duct tape)

 

[Adrian Tuddenham]

TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'m planning digging up my concrete drive and lawn. A BT cable to the
house runs under both. I tried finding where it went using a metal
detector to no avail. Any other way to trace where the cable runs ?
I know BT engineers inject a signal into a pair to do a trace that way...
Any one any practical solutions ?
I\'d hate to chop the cable and be without B/band for ages

If you are anywhere near Bath, get in touch with me (contact details on
website), I may be able to help.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk