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"Sillier than Anyone Else Alive "
Leaving the neutral failure issue aside, what would happen if I disabled
the Earth leakage detectors and drew power across the two phases.
**Depends on the equipment you connected. The damage might range from mild
to catastrophic.
** Indefinitely, actually.Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
My Yasnac/Yaskawa Acroloc CNC machine is supplied 3 phase 208 volts.PeterD wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:28:50 -0700, D Yuniskis
not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
Hi Sylvia,
Sylvia Else wrote:
Are you really thick or just pretending.
I'll opt for neither. So far you've said nothing relevant to the thread,
which concerns a house with two connected phases.
Have we decided that you really have two different *phases*
vs. two different *legs* (but really "single phase" -- think
center tapped transformer).
E.g., 3 phase "220" (US) is three conductors plus a ground.
If you look at any two of those conductors (ground referenced)
you would see a 120 degree PHASE lag between them.
A US residential service is "single phase, 220" in which
you have two 110V circuits ("legs") 180 degrees out of phase
with each other (i.e., the center tapped xformer concept).
So, here, half of your lighting/living circuits are on
one *leg* (so those appliances are nominally 110VAC)
and the other half on the other "leg". Some bigger
loads tend to straddle both legs (220) -- e.g., the
blower motor in the evaporative cooler. Other
appliances *use* both legs but actually as two 110V
*circuits* (i.e., higher ampacity available on two
conductors).
US standard is 240 volts, not 220.
If we want to be *pedantic*, there are LOTS of "little
errors" in this discussion! ;-)
I wasn't answering about two phase systems. Someone said he didn't knowBaron wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
baron wrote:
Sylvia Else Inscribed thus:
Baron wrote:
**********************************
Don't know about the UK.
The lights would go out ! Domestic properties usually have just
a 240v single phase feed. Usually you would get a single phase
running down one side of the street and another phase running
down the other.
**********************************
I said I have two phases.
Sylvia.
Yes I know ! I answered the question above !
You think I'm mistaken about having two phases?
Sylvia.
Are you really thick or just pretending.
I'll opt for neither. So far you've said nothing relevant to the
thread, which concerns a house with two connected phases.
If you think otherwise, try explaining yourself better.
Sylvia.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
With the exception of some pump motors, nothing in the house runs onI have to phases of power supply to my house - so three power lines, two
phases plus neutral.
I've on occasion wondered what would happen if we lost the neutral line.
It seems to me that we'd then have the voltage between the two phases
across two sets of appliances, one set attached to one phase, and the
other set attached to the other phase, with the two sets in series as a
result of their common connection to the neutral wire. Since the two
sets are unlikely to represent equal loads, the net result would be a
large overvoltage on one set of appliances.
My electrician says it's not an issue, but I can't see why.
Any thoughts?
Sylvia.
But is it how it's metered?On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:12:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:
Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.
Ummmm ... The O/P is in AUSTRALIA, where the supply is nominal 230VSylvia Else wrote:
I have to phases of power supply to my house - so three power lines, two
phases plus neutral.
I've on occasion wondered what would happen if we lost the neutral line.
It seems to me that we'd then have the voltage between the two phases
across two sets of appliances, one set attached to one phase, and the
other set attached to the other phase, with the two sets in series as a
result of their common connection to the neutral wire. Since the two
sets are unlikely to represent equal loads, the net result would be a
large overvoltage on one set of appliances.
My electrician says it's not an issue, but I can't see why.
Any thoughts?
Sylvia.
With the exception of some pump motors, nothing in the house runs on
220. Even the stove splits 110 to the burners and 110 to the oven. No
neutral and no 110's to anything.
terryc wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:12:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:
Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.
But is it how it's metered?
I haven't gone through the math, and I'd overlooked the fact that each
meter sees a power factor of less than one, so I can't say now whether I
think the meters would read correctly. But if there's a way of looking
at the problem that makes the answer obvious, I've yet to see it.
Sylvia.
WHere are you located that this is true? Surely not in the US/NorthSylvia Else wrote:
I have to phases of power supply to my house - so three power lines, two
phases plus neutral.
I've on occasion wondered what would happen if we lost the neutral line.
It seems to me that we'd then have the voltage between the two phases
across two sets of appliances, one set attached to one phase, and the
other set attached to the other phase, with the two sets in series as a
result of their common connection to the neutral wire. Since the two
sets are unlikely to represent equal loads, the net result would be a
large overvoltage on one set of appliances.
My electrician says it's not an issue, but I can't see why.
Any thoughts?
Sylvia.
With the exception of some pump motors, nothing in the house runs on
220. Even the stove splits 110 to the burners and 110 to the oven. No
neutral and no 110's to anything.
Of course not. I'll just get out the 415VAC resistive load I happen toOn Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:33:40 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
terryc wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:12:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:
Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.
But is it how it's metered?
I haven't gone through the math, and I'd overlooked the fact that each
meter sees a power factor of less than one, so I can't say now whether I
think the meters would read correctly. But if there's a way of looking
at the problem that makes the answer obvious, I've yet to see it.
Sylvia.
Do it the old fashioned way: make a test! Can't be that difficult, can
it?
Sylvia Else wrote:
I have to phases of power supply to my house - so three power lines, two
phases plus neutral.
I've on occasion wondered what would happen if we lost the neutral line.
It seems to me that we'd then have the voltage between the two phases
across two sets of appliances, one set attached to one phase, and the
other set attached to the other phase, with the two sets in series as a
result of their common connection to the neutral wire. Since the two
sets are unlikely to represent equal loads, the net result would be a
large overvoltage on one set of appliances.
My electrician says it's not an issue, but I can't see why.
Any thoughts?
Sylvia.
With the exception of some pump motors, nothing in the house runs on
220. Even the stove splits 110 to the burners and 110 to the oven. No
neutral and no 110's to anything.
PeterD wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:33:40 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
terryc wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:12:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:
Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I
consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.
But is it how it's metered?
I haven't gone through the math, and I'd overlooked the fact that
each meter sees a power factor of less than one, so I can't say now
whether I think the meters would read correctly. But if there's a way
of looking at the problem that makes the answer obvious, I've yet to
see it.
Sylvia.
Do it the old fashioned way: make a test! Can't be that difficult, can
it?
Of course not. I'll just get out the 415VAC resistive load I happen to
have lying around, and see what registers.
Sylvia.
Two large lamps in series.
I don't have any. I'd have to buy them.Sylvia Else wrote:
PeterD wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:33:40 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
terryc wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:12:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:
Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I
consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.
But is it how it's metered?
I haven't gone through the math, and I'd overlooked the fact that
each meter sees a power factor of less than one, so I can't say now
whether I think the meters would read correctly. But if there's a way
of looking at the problem that makes the answer obvious, I've yet to
see it.
Sylvia.
Do it the old fashioned way: make a test! Can't be that difficult, can
it?
Of course not. I'll just get out the 415VAC resistive load I happen to
have lying around, and see what registers.
Sylvia.
Two large lamps in series.
If you can't find it, you can borrow mine... Oh, wait, too far away!PeterD wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:33:40 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
terryc wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:12:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:
Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.
But is it how it's metered?
I haven't gone through the math, and I'd overlooked the fact that each
meter sees a power factor of less than one, so I can't say now whether I
think the meters would read correctly. But if there's a way of looking
at the problem that makes the answer obvious, I've yet to see it.
Sylvia.
Do it the old fashioned way: make a test! Can't be that difficult, can
it?
Of course not. I'll just get out the 415VAC resistive load I happen to
have lying around, and see what registers.
Sylvia.
I have three meters, one for each phase.terryc wrote:
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 22:12:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:
Would the two utility meters correctly reflect the energy I
consumed?
**Briefly, yes.
** Indefinitely, actually.
Yep, that is how 415VAC is obtained.
But is it how it's metered?
I haven't gone through the math, and I'd overlooked the fact that each
meter sees a power factor of less than one, so I can't say now whether
I think the meters would read correctly. But if there's a way of
looking at the problem that makes the answer obvious, I've yet to see
it.
Sylvia.
Sylvia,Anyway, all a test would do is show that the answer is probably correct.
It wouldn't make it any more obvious.
Sylvia.
<sigh>Sylvia Else wrote:
Anyway, all a test would do is show that the answer is probably
correct. It wouldn't make it any more obvious.
Sylvia.
Sylvia,
Draw yourself a vector diagram. Then with some simple trigonometry it
*should* be more obvious.
Gee, isn't that what I *said*? How do you get an imbalance ifOn Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:38:47 -0700, D Yuniskis
not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
This is how GFCI breakers work -- they watch for current "leaking"
off to ground someplace other than in the "return" conductor.
No they don't. They look for imbalanced current flow between the two
conductors.
No they don't. They look for imbalanced current flow between the twoThis is how GFCI breakers work -- they watch for current "leaking"
off to ground someplace other than in the "return" conductor.
On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:38:47 -0700, D Yuniskis
not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
This is how GFCI breakers work -- they watch for current "leaking"
off to ground someplace other than in the "return" conductor.
No they don't. They look for imbalanced current flow between the two
conductors.
And how do you think imbalance is going to take place?