TV Picture: What Does "Calibration" Mean???

"The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, >just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but >far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no >phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates."

Most of them now have user color temperature adjustments. That will be at the highest setting when it leaves the factory.

The LEDS are chosen for the high blue output because to use the display to lower the color temperature is much cheaper than to raise it. In terms of brightness. And it does not react as well as CRTs did. But in both, if you DO want higher color temperature you need to boost the blue. Reducing the red and green is not the right way to do it.

 

jurb...@gmail.com wrote: "Most of them now have user color temperature adjustments. That will
be at the highest setting when it leaves the factory.

^Correck!^


Folks I have come to the conclusion that
the majority of people don't even know these
new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
under which settings can be found. I'm dead
serious. And they live with their TVs looking
like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
only 5% of out of their investment's potential.

A damned SHAME, as is their attitude when I
offer to make it better:

"It's fine the way it is"

"It's brand new; that's the way it's
supposed to look."

"LEAVE IT ALONE"....


And that's the toughest part of
being a calibrator - or at least,
someone who knows better.

 

Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.

How the shoot these new movies and shows annoys me. Color effects, the blacks are green or whatever. And I know it is them because if you turn the color all the way down you have a good greyscale. Camera angles shifting like a damn toddler had the camera.

And geometry ? Either it is letterboxed, cropped on the sides or overscanning because they haven't gotten their aspect ration shit together.

 

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:54:22 PM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.

How the shoot these new movies and shows annoys me. Color effects, the blacks are green or whatever. And I know it is them because if you turn the color all the way down you have a good greyscale. Camera angles shifting like a damn toddler had the camera.

And geometry ? Either it is letterboxed, cropped on the sides or overscanning because they haven't gotten their aspect ration shit together.

___
Actually jurb, the default TV settings are like
having the bass & treble jacked fully clockwise,
or the graphic equalizers set like smileys -
middle sliders down, and sliders toward the ends
higher and higher.

As far as aspect ratio is concerned, 16:9 or
"screen fit" will accommodate most viewing
scenarios. I'm really annoyed by those who
insist on stretching 4:3(old fashioned TV)
pictures to fit their wide-screen HD theater,
so J.J. from "Good Times" looks wider than
superintendent Bookman. LOL!

 

For those that don't think calibration - or at least
proper adjustment of the basic six controls - is
important:

http://www.avdomotics.com/listmanager/images/CalibratedVersusUncalibrated.jpg

 

How do you prefer your Kidman? ...

http://www.recordere.dk/indhold/articlefiles/1270-isf7b.jpg

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

thekmanrocks@gmail.com wrote:
Cyndrome Leader wrote: "thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
Your silence on this subject speaks
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.


It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.

The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates.

The drift (in everything) in the plasma airport arrival/departure screens
was pretty amazing too, even if you cut some slack for those displays
having been used in the worst possible conditions. "


Cyndrome:
The reason you are seeing those "way too cold" color
temperatures is because in the advance settings the
highest/bluest color temperature is set by default!

The backlights themselves are really just too blue. This is a problem of
sorts when laptops went from CCFL backlighting to LEDs- the color temp
went way too high. It can probably be adjusted, somehow, but it doesn't
help the color is just wrong to start with.

As for the creature cantina scene - of course the TVs
in there are not matched: different mfgs have different
factory default settings; but what those settings do
have in common is: they were selected to make their
product stand out on a sales floor - NOT to be watched
for any appreciable length of time.

they all match pretty much, even in a place like best buy. All those
cheapo LCD panels are probably coming out of the same 3 plants. Nobody
cares about special phosphors or dot patterns or shadow masks like in CRT
days. Sure there's cheap and expensive display panels, but they just don't
seem to vary all that much otherwise.

Bet you a five-legged horse that if even just the user
controls(color temp set to neutral instead of high,
backlight on LEDs set in half, and the bright, contrast,

Even half brightness, they're still too blue too look natural.

color, sharpness all set via test DVD) you'd be
hard pressed to see any difference between sets at
opposite ends of the bar - assuming they are all
tuned to the same game, as they likely all will
next week for the series.

What more can I do to convince you guys that OOB
(out of the box) settings are no good for a consumer
display, or for your eyes? In fact, I find the factory
"BUY ME, BUY ME!" settings on modern flat panel
TVs are worse than the factory defaults on any old
CRT tube I've EVER seen.

I'll restate what I said before- LCDs lack the color and brightness
variations that affected CRTs. Default settings have always been and are
still pretty horrible, but at least these days if you buy a demo LCD TV,
it's safe to say the thing isn't already worn out like a CRT would have
been trying to dazzle customers with every setting turned way up.

For viewing at home, I use an Epson projector that seems to have 3 CCDs
and the starndard arc lamp. I forgot what the default factory settings
were, but they were garish and made even the OSD menu setup hard to look
at. It had to be something like high brightness, 14k color temp and no
doubt some sort of vivid control cranked way up. I did not bother with any
real calibration, but made sure white looked white and the brightness was
reduced so that set so that "black" on the screen looked black, even
though the screen itself is white.

How do you suggest adjusting a projection system?



WHite LEDs are actually blue, with a phosphor to make it into
something near white light. They fail in that attempt.

yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters.

 

Cyndrome Leader wrote:
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "

And there are adjustments available
on most panels to being all of those
into grayscale spec.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

thekmanrocks@gmail.com wrote:

Cyndrome Leader wrote:
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "

And there are adjustments available
on most panels to being all of those
into grayscale spec.

Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?

I've seen color corrected LED backlights on high end computer displays. I
use a 4k Eizo that has this feature, it's not tunable but the color temp
has a few settings and only the highest one is harsh blue, as it should
be (and also not used as it looks bad, like televisions at the store).

 

On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 6:05:40 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
com wrote:

Cyndrome Leader wrote:
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "

And there are adjustments available
on most panels to being all of those
into grayscale spec.

Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?

Not the backlight - the overall picture.

I've seen color corrected LED backlights on high end computer displays. I
use a 4k Eizo that has this feature, it's not tunable but the color temp
has a few settings and only the highest one is harsh blue, as it should
be (and also not used as it looks bad, like televisions at the store).

"harsh blue, as it should be" ???

Are you serious?

 

[Cydrome Leader]

thekmanrocks@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 6:05:40 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
com wrote:
Cyndrome Leader wrote:
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "

And there are adjustments available
on most panels to being all of those
into grayscale spec.

Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?

Not the backlight - the overall picture.

exactly. If you try to compensate for a horrible backlight you're going to
lose the full gamut the display should have been able to show.

I've seen color corrected LED backlights on high end computer displays. I
use a 4k Eizo that has this feature, it's not tunable but the color temp
has a few settings and only the highest one is harsh blue, as it should
be (and also not used as it looks bad, like televisions at the store).

"harsh blue, as it should be" ???

Are you serious?

Serious. 10k color temp looks bad on a good monitor, and that temp is even
far exceeded by cheap displays.

 

Cydrome Leader wrote: "thekma...@gmail.com wrote:

"exactly. If you try to compensate for a horrible backlight you're going to
lose the full gamut the display should have been able to show. "

And this is where colorimeter-based calibration comes
in. By adjusting the bias/gain, and the RGBs, you can
compensate for any backlight flaws and maintain
correct color gamut.


"Serious. 10k color temp looks bad on a good monitor, and that temp is even
far exceeded by cheap displays. "

So given that, and your first quoted statement
above, would you still keep the OOB settings
on a consumer display, or would you at least
attempt to get the basic settings closer to
standardized positions?

 

[Tim R]

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 6:58:18 AM UTC-4, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:

Folks I have come to the conclusion that
the majority of people don't even know these
new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
under which settings can be found. I'm dead
serious. And they live with their TVs looking
like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
only 5% of out of their investment's potential.

We bought our first flat screen this year when a CRT finally died. (still have 3 more in the garage, can't get rid of them)

I did not know there were settings until I read this thread.

I do recall the colors didn't look quite right at first, but ....sigh......we got used to them.

So you're making a good case for some adjustments. Is this stuff in the owner's manual?

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:54:22 PM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.

Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color.

First, a confession: Due to this being one of the facets of my hobby, I have no less than seven (7) functioning, dedicated audio systems in play. Four are in my "radio room" one in the living room, and the most serious one in the library. The seventh is at our summer house, and is primarily a weekend warrior. Speakers range from AR3a to Magnepan MG-IIIa, and include both Revox and AR sub-sat systems as well as vintage AR M5s. So, the vice has been well-established. The house is a center-hall colonial with 10' ceilings, plaster walls, hardwood floors and lots of wood trim. Room sizes vary from 17' x 24' x 10' (library) to 12' x 15' x 9' (radio room).

a) I have found that with some care and a very understanding wife, speakers may be placed in about any room without needing equalization.
b) Getting a good soundstage - which is emphatically NOT a single point - is a little more difficult, but not impossible - and why I favor placing speakers on the long wall of a room, not the short wall.
c) There are times when I will use the bass/treble/midrange controls on my pre-amps - but that will be specific to a recording, not a general setting. I do also own an equalizer - but in the last 10 years, it has seen use only to the extent that I make sure it is working properly. And I also own a Citation 17 with equalization built-in, nice but not much used.
d) I find that adequate power such that one may achieve substantial volume without the threat of clipping is far more useful to good sound than any sort of 'shaping' applied to the signal. I have a (very) few recordings with a peak-to-average of very nearly 30dB, such that 'enough power' is not an idle expectation.

Things that are 'there to be used' are often not of much use if any thought is applied.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/46/156980933_1ea5a376db.jpg

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

"And this is where colorimeter-based calibration comes
in. By adjusting the bias/gain, and the RGBs, you can
compensate for any backlight flaws and maintain
correct color gamut. "

No. here is a reason there were no LED LCD TVs in the past. They could not get the color right because the wavelengths they needed were simply not there. So they built those HV supplies and used those CCFLs with their own special phosphor. Well it isn't all that special.

The LCD panel has to separate the colors, and there are only so many efficient ways of doing that. You have to have the colors it needs. The spectral output has to be right and matched to not only the panel, but the circuitry.. The days of the 90 degree color demodulation angle being the last word are over. Red is not really red, green is not really green and blue is not really blue. At least as defined by the old standard. They can do whatever they want now, and DLPs took to using seven colors. Like having a seven gun CRT. Try just demodulating I and Q now. (the original red and blue signals, kinda)

One thing though, if you DO deem it that important, what is your reference ? A piece of paper ? Lit by what ? The way I see it you would need a lightbox such as used for color camera calibration. If you do not have that, how do you know what is white ?

 

>"Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color. "

You an AKer ?

Anyway, in response, speakers run 5, 6, 7 dB off, microphones about the same. Amps, tuners, whatever, consider them good within 3 dB. And people are afraid to use tone controls ? Where is that in the Bible ? Where is that in the Constitution ?

What's more, when turned all the way up that bass control is doing what it is supposed to do. Or all the way down. It was endowed by its creator with that ability. It is your free will to use it or abuse it. Like a gun, well at least as far as some woofers are concerned but they are just paranoid...

Bose had no shame in using a permanent EQ. Neither did I. Years ago I had speakers used to have a small woofer and like an 8 or 10 inch passive radiator which I replaced with a four ohm woofer.

It was not good, but using the full range off a Soundcraftsmen ten band EQ I got them to sound good. And when I played a few other things on them I started liking them better and better. Damn that bass was smooth.

The settings were 31 Hz at +max, 62 at 0, 125 Hz at -max (min) and the rest gradually up to the center from there to about the sixth band. It sounded fantastic, but was inefficient as hell. First of all it was 2.3 ohms, poison to at least half of the amps known in existence, or not actually...

The lights dimmed when I cranked these babies up. Eventually they became the rear channels in my quad system. Fed them with a supposedly low power Sansui 771. I scoped it once and don;t remember the reading but it was well over a hundred a channel into that 2.3 ohms. The front was the Marantz 4270 running into speakers I put together. A 12 inch three way system, decent dome tweeters, noting fancy ad did not sound perfect, but I had an EQ for them as well. Separate EQs for front and back. Yup.

Once set, I believe the sound was damn hard to beat. Nobody did back then, at least in the current crowd. And I had it with the Advent five foot silver screen job with the mirror out front, AND MINE WAS CALIBRATED. Someone has just changed all three CRTs but it had another problem nobody could fix. Nobody else that is.

You look at these things and the picture is trapezoidal, the convergence is shit, you can't read the letters sometimes because it is so bad. Not mine. Mine was perfect. Convergence within a raster line width everywhere on the screen. I figured out a little design defect that was keeping the others from having that. It was radiation from one wire to another, polluting one of the waveforms going to the convergence waveform board. It caused an error at the right side and most people just made it overscan, not me. On a five foot diagonal screen my overscan was less than an inch on each side. Now remember how long ago this was. Your TV picture got smaller when your fridge started not long before that.

I wouldn't mind having one of those old sets now. Not that I have anywhere to put it, but if I did...

 

jurb...@gmail.com wrote: "One thing though, if you DO deem it that important, what is your reference ? A piece of paper ? Lit by what ? The way I see it you would need a lightbox such as used for color camera calibration. If you do not have that, how do you know what is white ? "


This will be my last reply to you, since
it seems your mind is clearly closed to
TV calibration:

My ref. source is one of several good
test pattern DVDs out there: HD Digital
Video Essentials on Blu-Ray, Spears &
Munsil, etc. There are also pattern
generators out there, from Quantum
and Spectra Cal. You put up the patterns,
stick a sensor on your screen, and adjust
what the laptop software tells you to.

And now you are on your own. I'm going
to respond to someone who at least
seems curious about this subject.

 

Tim R. wrote: "So you're making a good case for some
adjustments. Is this stuff in the owner's manual? "

Welcome to the newsgroup!

The owners manual mainly explains
how to access the settings and (sort
of) what each control does.

I can get you started, but first I need
to know what type of flat panel you
have: LCD/LED(both are backlit) or
Plasma.

For the backlight types, the first
things you want to do is (1) turn
the backlight down from full, to
about halfway, and (2) under
advanced settings, turn off
any "eye candy" - garbage like
skin tone enhancer, black level
enhancer, edge enhancer, and
digital noise reduction.

Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
picture mode. All that is designed
to do is shorten the life of your TV
so you can go out and buy a new one
in 3-4 years(!).

Start with those things and tell me
what you see. It will not be as bright
as you were used with those showroom
settings, but it's not supposed to be.

 

[Tim R]

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 6:14:25 AM UTC-4, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:

For the backlight types, the first
things you want to do is (1) turn
the backlight down from full, to
about halfway, and (2) under
advanced settings, turn off
any "eye candy" - garbage like
skin tone enhancer, black level
enhancer, edge enhancer, and
digital noise reduction.

Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
picture mode. All that is designed
to do is shorten the life of your TV
so you can go out and buy a new one
in 3-4 years(!).

I did that (except I realize I left noise reduction on) and I get a kind of washed out appearance, like water colors instead of oils. I left it that way to see if I'd get used to it. My wife and daughter have not commented - really they watch the majority of TV. But I didn't tell them what I did, I'll wait a day and ask.

What made the most difference was removing Vivid.

 

Tim R:

OK. Next I need you to select
picture mode "Standard" or
"Custom". I need to know the
scale and present setting of each
of the following:

Backlight
Contrast
Brightness
Color
Tint/Hue
Sharpness.

I.E. "Contrast: 0..........50.......100, presently 90.

etc.

Before you do that, check color temperature
setting. Move it to Neutral, or Warm1, if available.