Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence
is standard practice in the industry.

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

I totally disagree.

Your problem.

No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium Polymer
battery pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into a
device.

Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Sorry but you are missinformed.

Nope.

Check here
http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/default.aspx
These are AA and AAA lithium batteries.

Those arent the RECHARGEABLE batterys being discussed.

Pity they wont fit in an ipod. And arent practical with electric
toothbrushes either.

The point is that consumer AA an AAA lithium batteries are available.

Nope, not the RECHARGEABLE batterys being discussed.

There are lithium batteries made to take the place of 2 AA
batteries side by side in cameras and radios etc that use 2 AA
batteries.(RCR-V3) (CR2) They are available rechargeable.

Yes, but they arent the standard format being discussed.

AAs are be a bit of a trick because of the 3.7 volt standard. But I HAVE
seen them. Also the camera standard RCR123a is available in rechargeable
Lithium. Also rechargeable lithium ion 9 volts (can't find the number)

Yes, but they arent the standard format being discussed.

Its no news that there are a host of special purpose removable
rechargable lithium batterys, virtually all laptops, notebooks,
PDAs. cameras, cellphones, etc etc etc have them.

I HAVE A CHARGER FOR THE LITHIUM 123A

PITY ITS NOT A STANDARD AA OR AAA BATTERY.

That´s the point, not if these batteries can be fitted to an IPOD or a Thootbrush.

Wrong, see the top of the quoting.

You said that Lithium batteries weren´t available in standard sizes

Yes, and it should have been obvious that what was being discussed
was RECHARGEABLE batterys.

and I proved you that you were wrong.

No you didnt.

Also, there are smaller lithium batteries available for watches and
calculators.

Those arent RECHARGEABLE either.

Even there are *user replaceable lithium batteries* for cellphones
and laptops,

Yes, I said that.

which further demonstrates the concept that rechargeable lithium
batteries can, and in fact are produced, in a variety of formats.

Pity they arent practical with external chargers because of the
real problem with RECHARGEABLE lithium batterys in that format.

There's a reason they go bang if not RECHARGED properly.

 

[Anthony Matonak]

John Husvar wrote:

"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
Archival storage of data is a BIG deal that the industry doesn't like
to talk about.

Most companies data isn't worth anything after only a handful of years.

Well, I suppose one could print and store all all the data records on
acid-free paper and then physically go find the ones they wanted.
Shouldn't take more than a medium-sized army of clerks and only a small
hollowed mountain range for the storage.

The absolute best storage is microfilm or some variant of it.
You're pretty much assured that no matter what happens with
technology that you'll still be able to read it, even decades
later. You can buy computer microfilm printers. Direct print
to microfilm, no developing required.

Anthony

 

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:43:06 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence
is standard practice in the industry.

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

I totally disagree.

Your problem.

No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium Polymer battery
pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into a device.

Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Nobody said anything about separate chargers.

I just did.

ANd you DO see lithium AA and AAA batteries
- they are just not rechargable lithium

Pity we happened to be discussing rechargeable batterys.

(and in fact, there ARE rechargeable Lithiums in the AA format.)

Nope.

That would look after all the ipods and
ipodlikes, as well as all kinds of PDAs etc.

There's a reason cellphones dont all use the same standard battery.

Yes, there is. It's called "marketing" and "catch'em while you can"

Nope. Nokia for example use the same format battery
over multiple generations of their cellphones. Its actually
about a physical format that works well with cellphones.

Nokia has used several different battery standards. The 5100-6100
series uses the same battery, in Nicad, NiMh and Lithium flavours.
Other series of phones use different battery configurations. Much more
sensible in this regard than Motorola and all the other manufacturers.
Something about a northern european mentality - they actually THINK.

I've actually got one that not only takes its own format battery,
but allows you to use AA batterys in an emergency, but that has
the real downside that its much thicker than current cellphones
and considerably bigger overall too.

My cordless phone does in fact use standard NiMH or NiCad AA
batterys, and its much thicker than most modern cellphones. Not as
important with a cordless which doesnt get carried around as much.

On the ipod nano it's just the simplicity of assembly that counts

Nope.

Please explain.

Its the tiny physical format that makes user changable batterys less
practical, particularly when you cant charge them outside the ipod easily.

There is no need to charge them outside the ipod if all you want to do
is make the ipod last longer than the 2 year life of the current
non-replaceable battery

- it's crimped together, but not sealed, so if it gets wet it's finished,

It would be anyway even if the case was sealed, just like with cellphones.

and it IS possible to take it apart - but the battery is soldered
on, rather than plug-in, because it's simpler/cheaper.

Its obviously still possible to replace the battery.

Not if you can't get them, it isn't.

You'll be able to get them, just because of the volume of those sold.

Could still replace the battery - but they are NOT AVAILABLE.

NOT YET.

And by the time they are, the units will be obsolete.

Who cares if they still work fine ?

And if you get the beggars wet, the battery goes south.

Same with cellphones. There is no evil conspiracy,
its about producing a cost effective product.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy.

The OP did.

I said it was building as cheaply as possible (and often cheaper).

Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.

No problem - they are designed with EXCHANGEABLE batteries so you can
go weeks between charging. Ever try to charge a cellphone battery out
in the bush in West Africa? - where you DO see cell phones miles and
miles from any electrical power? The batteries get swapped out in
town and recharged there. You get two with your phone and "bob's your
uncle" Just drop off dead ones and pick up charged ones - pay a small
fee.

Also, cell phones are a "vanity item" so there is a large aftermarket
in customized cases for some brands. There are also MANY that can not
be readilly dissassembled beyond removing the battery.

It's the bean-counters running the shop.

Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.

I've worked for a company (computer industry) that was
quite successful until a harvard MBA type started "managing"
the company. It went from profitable to 1.5 million dollars
a year loss in 18 months. Was gone in 22.

Clearly hasnt happened with Apple, Nokia, etc etc etc.
It came VERY close to happening to Aapple. Just about got Gateway too.

Might still get HP/Compaq if they don't get their corporate head out
of (A) the sand or (B) their backsides. What happened to half the
computer companies that were in the market as little as 10 years ago?
The majority were micromanaged to death.

Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard
batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote

Check the datasheet of any semiconductor
and learn something before you write.

I was doing that likely before you were even born thanks.

Any rise in the temperature will shorten the lifespan of the product.

Wrong when the life is indefinite at any temps that the product will ever see.

To me, that´s a quite profitable scenario.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever designed a TV.

Would you care to show us how many TV´s have you designed? Answers
like: "many more than you can buy in your entire lifetime", "a lot
before you where born" aren´t valid ones. Give us real models and
brands if you want to have a little credibility. Probably you will not
ba able to produce a valid answer

Also, you will notice that the same circuit will have electrolytic
capacitors near heat sources, when it´s a well known fact that
heat shortens dramatically the life of electrolytics caps.

In practice that isnt a significant problem with domestic appliances.
Essentially because you dont see many electros in that situation with them.

Are you crazy?

Nope.

Have you ever seen a modern SMPS?

Yep, I may well have been using them since before you were even born too thanks.

Try to tell all us that a SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supply, in case
you don´t know what a SMPS is) don´t HAVE electrolytics caps,

I never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

and that those caps doesn´t have a finite lifespan.

Or that either.

Even electrolytics are classified based
on their MBTF at certain temperatures.

Duh.

Again, try to find the datasheet of some electrolitycs caps,

Dont need to, did that likely before you were even born too thanks.

and educate yourself.

So no comments about how the finite lifespan of a capacitor used in a
SMPS will affect the overall lifespan of the product?

The manufacturer know how to properly design an electronic
circuit in order to provide a long life, but it also it knows how
to design it to fail within a short term under certain conditions,

No they dont on that silly claim about surviving the
warranty fine, but failing immediately after that expires.

No one is telling that the product will explode right after the warranty expires,

Some have run the mindlessly silly line that it can
be designed to fail just after the warranty runs out.

but that it can be designed to fail within a
short life span, especially with cheap products.

Have fun explaining the host of domestic electronic devices that dont.

I say "it can be designed to have a short life span", not that "all
electronic devices are made to fail". I´m starting to think that you
have trouble to understand written language.

A TV, or a computer monitor left on all the time will last less time
of course. A CRT has a definite lifespan, and if the monitor or the
TV set is a LCD based one, the CFL bulbs used to light up the screen
have a definite lifespan. Did you knew that, Mr. Know Nothing ?

Corse I did, Master Pathetic Excuse for a Bullshit Artist.

Pity its got nothing to do with your stupid pig ignorant claim
that is possible to design a product to survive the warranty
period and die shortly after that expires, with so much
variation in the detail of how domestic appliances are used.

Since you don´t have a real argument, you proceed to personal
disqualification. That´s says a lot about you. Try to tell us that
leaving a device turned on always will not reduce it´s lifespan
considerably. In fact, following your ideas that no real lifespan can
be determinated for a given device, then the amount of use of that
devices shouldn´t have any impact.

The claim is completely fanciful and those making that sort of
claim have obviously never actually designed a damned thing.

And only the stupidest manufacturer would deliberatly design
their product to die as soon as the warranty has expired
anyway, because the bulk of those who had bought such
a dud wouldnt be buying another from that manufacturer.

Tell that to the manufacturer of Coby products, for instance.

Dont need to.

They have quite a long time selling trash that fails quite quickly.

Because there are enough who havent been dudded
with a product of theirs to buy a dud of theirs.

Basic mathematics.

And they are the masters about producing disposable electronics. They
are the vivid proof that a device can, and sometimes is, designed to
fail within a short time.

It can be something like 15 years or more of constant use, without a stop.

Its actually a hell of a lot more years than that.

And I have seen hard drives surviving at least more than 10 years of hard work.

Me too. Pity about the years the MTBF turns into.

Check this link
http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/whitepapers/WhitePaper_05.htm
It shows how MTBF is calculated.

specially those concerning the maximum number of startups/stops
the drive can tolerate before the heads get completely worn.

Wrong again. Its such a round number it cant have been produced
by TESTING, and the number of starts and stops dont produce
any wear of the heads with modern hard drives anyway.

You are wrong again.

Nope.

When the platters stops, the heads contact the platters.

Not anymore, they are retracted now.

While the platters are spinning at full speed, the heads are separated from
them by a small air cushion formed by the rotational speed of the platter.

Duh.

As soon the HDD is turned off, the platters loses speed, and eventually
the air cushion dissapear, thus the heads make contact with the platters.

No they dont, they are retracted now.

The same happens in reverse sequence when the HDD starts.

Wrong again.

Check this other one:

http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/SpinPointTSeries/HardDiskDrive_SpinPointTSeries_HD321KJ.asp?page=Specifications


specially the part about START / STOP cycles, and the design life of
this particular HDD, which by the way, is in current production. Now
explain why the manufacturer provides a definite number of START /
STOPS cycles, if those cycles doesn´t cause any kind of damage to the
drive

That´s why start / stop cicles have a definite impact in any HDD.

Wrong again. Its actually the spinup thats the problem life wise.

Really? Please explain that in a credible way. Also, explain how the
heads retract in such a way that they never touches the platters as the
HDD stops.. Answers like "I designed HDD´s before they were marketed"
or "I know that because I´m the master engineer of blah, blah, blah"
aren´t valid ones. Demonstrate what you say.

Have you ever wondered why a HDD last less in
a home environment than in a office environment?

They dont necessarily.

Check this out http://phorums.com.au/archive/index.php/t-42666.html

No thanks, its just plain wrong on that line about heads landing on the platters now.

If you checked that link, you would have found that it talks about YOU,
not HDD´s.

It might teach you a thing or two.

Not even possible for you. You're clearly certain you know it all when you clearly dont.

Isnt it time you ran up the white flag ?

Nope, because I´m not in a war. You are the one who wants to feel like
an old WW2 hero.

 

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:51:35 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Please explain why.

It should be obvious. Try counting the cost of all those sockets for
all the ics, let alone what that would do to the size of the device etc.

You couldnt even use surface mount anymore either.

No reason subassemblies can not be replaceable.

No point when there is only one with stuff like
an ipod, electric toothbrush, cellphone etc.

Connectors today can be made extremely compact,

And still cost signifcantly more than no connector at all.

With the failure rate with PCs so low, its a complete waste of money.

and with LSI the active components can all be put
into one plug-in component worth a couple of dollars.

What they actually do is surface mount that on a single component and
allow what is needed for the owner/monkey to press to be connected etc.

SMT could still be used on the "backbone" which
could also be a low cost field replaceable part.

Why would it be low cost when its the bulk of the product
like with an ipod, a cellphone, a cordless phone, etc etc etc.

Because even the way they are built today they are "low cost". And I'm
talking things like 2000 dollar large screen TVs like the Sony
mentioned thad had the drivers in the non-replaceable cable to the
screen. The circuit in question likely costs Sony less than $3 to
install where it is. Add $10 to make it readilly replaceable, and you
increase the cost by 0.5%

There is absolutely NOTHING that cannot be made
serviceable in the consumer electronics arena.

Yes, but what is the point of making it easy to replace the
vast bulk of the device when the failure rate is so low ?

The failure rate is plenty high enough - even if you limit it to
"infant mortality" Failure within the lifespan of the display panel is
likely well over 5%. On some brands of laptop computers it's a whole
lot higher than that.

Yes, it makes sense to have cellphone batterys readily
replaceable, and the front cover etc, because batterys
do have a limited number of recharge cycles and people
do bugger up the covers quite often, but there isnt any
point in having more than a single module with all the
electronics on it with a cellphone or even a PC motherboard.

Will it cost more? Likely Does it have to? Not necessarily.

Corse it has to over no connector at all.
There are ways of doing things that add functionality without adding

cost.

Would people buy it? Smart people would.

I doubt it when they have adequate information on the failure rate.

I suspect some on this list would not.

Its not a list, they are newsgroups.

OK. picky, picky.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[thomas_chance]

hello, if you dont mind me asking. If you are not able to repair your
VS-6015R television, might we be able to inquire as making a purchase
from you? Our daughter broke the screen on ours other than that it
works lovely... a little blurry but other wise fine. My wife is in
love with the cabinet that it is made into. Sorry about your troubles
none the less.

thnx,

thomas




--
thomas_chance

 

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:54:36 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
b <reverend_rogers@yahoo.com> wrote
Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables
to the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000? tv!

Just lousy design, no evil conspiracy.

Conspiracy of idiocy

There is no conspiracy, just idiocy.

they should hang the designers of that one!
Crimes against the environment.

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Explain that one.

It should be obvious what the cost of having connectors
for all the caps, resistors, ics etc would cost.
How does that affect the environment?

I'd love to hear the spin you can put on THIS!!!!!!

You wouldnt know what spin was if it bit you on your lard arse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

On 15 Jan 2007 15:20:40 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
<too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables to
the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000€ tv!
they should hang the designers of that one!


Just sit back and watch the screams when HD is phased into the USA in a
couple of years...and hundreds of millions of televisions go obselete
at once.

FYI....plasma televisions have a dismal repair record.....throwaway
electronics at several thousand dollars a toss.

Yup - some major brands have over 50% failure rate within 5 years.
TMT

b wrote:
Everett M. Greene ha escrito:

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes:
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote
Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables to
the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000€ tv!
they should hang the designers of that one! Crimes against the
environment.
-B.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Let's imagine that conversation...

BeanCounter: "Make the product cheaper"
Engineer: "Sure, what do you suggest?"
BeanCounter: "I have no idea. I'm an accountant, not an engineer!"
(at this point everyone at the meeting stops paying attention to the
BeanCounter)

Okay....now let's do it the way it really happens....

CEO: I need a BIGGER bonus...how do we do that?
BeanCounter: "Make the product cheaper?"
Engineer: "Sure, what do you suggest?"
BeanCounter: "I have no idea. I'm an accountant, not an engineer!"
Engineer: "Well based on your cost point we can't do it."
BeanCounter: "How about cheaper labor?"
CEO: Sounds good to me...fire the engineers and outsource it."

The CEO gets his bonus, the Beancounter gets a promotion and the
Engineer is aaking "Do you want fries with that?"

It has happened thousands of times and will happen thousands of times
more.

TMT

Rick Brandt wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:01:43 +1100, "Rod Speed"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
It's the bean counters that dictate the quality or lack thereof that
makes the part failure prone in the first place, and glue is a lot
cheaper than screws. Moulded power cords, on the other hand, are not
only CHEAPER, but "more reliable" They are cheaper to make than just
the replaceable end itself because they are moulded in place.


Let's imagine that conversation...

BeanCounter: "Make the product cheaper"
Engineer: "Sure, what do you suggest?"
BeanCounter: "I have no idea. I'm an accountant, not an engineer!"
(at this point everyone at the meeting stops paying attention to the
BeanCounter)

Cost reduction is a *technical problem*, it cannot simply be mandated by fiat.
Every company is a bit different but I work at a company that manufactures
capital equipment and I can tell you that there are no accountants even invited
to these meetings. Ours (and many companies) are RUN by the engineering
departments. All other departments are considered "support".

 

[lsmartino]

clare ha escrito:

No, there are different "lithium" chemistries, and the Energizer E2
Lithium is a native 1.7 or 1.8 volt cell. AA cells are roughly 3 ah
each, and loose less than 1% per year to self discharge.

Here's a bit of info on 1.5 volt nominal lithium chemistry. From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery

Li-CuO Copper oxide 1.5 V 2.4 V
Can operate up to 150 °C. Developed as a replacement of zinc-carbon
and alkaline batteries. "Voltage up" problem, high difference between
open-circuit and nominal voltage. Produced until mid-1990s, replaced
by lithium-iron sulfide. Current use limited.
Li-Cu4O(PO4)2 Copper oxyphosphate
See Li-CuO
Li-CuS Copper sulfide 1.5 V
Li-PbCuS Lead sulfide and copper sulfide 1.5 V 2.2 V
Li-FeS Iron sulfide Propylene carbonate, dioxolane, dimethoxyethane
1.5-1.2 V
"Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". used as a replacement for alkaline batteries.
See lithium - iron disulfide.
Li-FeS2 Iron disulfide Propylene carbonate, dioxolane, dimethoxyethane
1.6-1.4 V 1.8 V
"Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". Used in eg. Energizer lithium cells as a
replacement for alkaline zinc-manganese chemistry. Called
"voltage-compatible" lithiums. 2.5 times higher lifetime for high
current discharge regime than alkaline batteries, no advantage for
low-current applications. Low self-discharge, 10 years storage time.
FeS2 is cheap. Some types rechargeable. Cathode often designed as a
paste of iron sulfide powder mixed with powdered graphite. Variant is
Li-CuFeS2.
Li-Bi2Pb2O5 Lead bismuthate 1.5 V 1.8 V
Replacement of silver-oxide batteries, with higher energy density,
lower tendency to leak, and better performance at higher temperatures.
Li-Bi2O3 Bismuth trioxide 1.5 V 2.04 V

The E2 is Lithium Iron DiSulphide.

They have a self protection circuit built in - a self resetting
poly-fuse type apparatus callet a PTC (Positive Temperature
Co-efficient) This also makes it almost impossible to detonate the
battery by attempting to recharge it. The battery is limitted to 2
amps continuous, but can handle short duration higher peaks
significantly higher.
They CAN BE SHIPPED BY NORMAL METHODS INCLUDING MAIL.

A lithium cell WILL produce 3V regardless of it´s type. A rechargeable
lithium battery or a non rechargeable one will have the same voltage
output. That´s what the chemistry produces, and you can´t reduce that
voltage chemically, so they must have some built in electronic method
to reduce the voltage to the standard 1.5 V a AA cell should produce.

You need to learn to do your research before you make statements you
cannot support. You've proven yourself to be a blowhard.

I was mistaken and I admit it, but that doesn´t make me a "blowhard".
Show me in which part of my posts I presented myself as an specialist
in anything. Your post was accurate, but this part was completely
unnecessary.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Most companies data isn't worth anything after only a handful of years.

Engineering data is the heart of a business.

Management often forgets that.

Then a competitor eats them alive.

TMT


Anthony Matonak wrote:

John Husvar wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
Archival storage of data is a BIG deal that the industry doesn't like
to talk about.

Most companies data isn't worth anything after only a handful of years.

Well, I suppose one could print and store all all the data records on
acid-free paper and then physically go find the ones they wanted.
Shouldn't take more than a medium-sized army of clerks and only a small
hollowed mountain range for the storage.

The absolute best storage is microfilm or some variant of it.
You're pretty much assured that no matter what happens with
technology that you'll still be able to read it, even decades
later. You can buy computer microfilm printers. Direct print
to microfilm, no developing required.

Anthony

 

[James Sweet]

And I want to add something about "planned obsolescence" because it
is often misused. If people are choosing to buy cheap, it's hardly
that the manufacturers are making things so they will break. The
consumer often wants that cheaper tv set or VCR.

Rather than planned obsolescence, it's normally more a case of how many
cost reducing corners can they cut and still have it last "long enough".
It's hard to blame the manufactures, they're supplying what the average
consumer is demanding.

If my computer from 1979 had been intended to last forever, it would
have been way out of range in terms of price. Because they'd have to
anticipate how much things would change, and build in enough so upgrading
would be doable. So you'd spend money on potential, rather than spending
money later on a new computer that would beat out what they could
imagine in 1979. And in recent years, it is the consumer who is deciding
to buy a new computer every few years (whether a deliberate decision or
they simply let the manufacturer lead, must vary from person to person.)

There's been various attempts over the years at marketing easily
upgradeable computers, but invariably by the time you were ready to
upgrade, the cost of a new CPU module was a sizable portion of the cost
of a whole new PC, as well as the rest of the major components were
showing their age.

 

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:12:21 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Please explain how the manufacturer of a light bulb, fluorescent
lamp or CFL can provide an estimate of the lifetime of the lamp.

That is trivial to do by running an adequate sized batch of
incandescent light bulbs under appropriate test conditions etc.

Don´t say "They can´t because it´s impossible".
Explain exactly why it´s impossible.

Its up to those who claim that its possible to design a device
to die one year after the warrant expires how that can be done.

Well, it can be estimated how long will a power semiconductor
run if you leave it without a proper heatsink.

Not in a domestic environment it aint, because
the ambient temperature varys so much.

I got a bit of a start relatively recently when someone was having
overheating problems with their PC to discover that they were one
of the few in this area who were silly enough to have no form of
cooling whatever, not even a swamp cooler, in an area which can
see 10 days over 40C some summers. We had one just last week
and it got to 44C, and it was like walking into a furnace walking
outside my airconditioned house.

Open any Samsung TV, for instance, to see for yourself
how important transistors are left bare, dissipatting heat
to the air. I don´t see why it should be difficult for the
manufacturer to know that these particular transistors
left overheating will fail within a finite number of hours.

There is no finite number of hours, because the
ambient temp varys so much in domestic situations.

Those who dont have any cooling at all in an area which
can see a week over 40C wont survive the warranty
period and those who have decent air conditioning will
find that the TV lasts long past the warranty period.

Also, you will notice that the same circuit will have electrolytic
capacitors near heat sources, when it´s a well known fact that
heat shortens dramatically the life of electrolytics caps.

In practice that isnt a significant problem with domestic appliances.
Essentially because you dont see many electros in that situation with them.

The manufacturer know how to properly design an electronic
circuit in order to provide a long life, but it also it knows how
to design it to fail within a short term under certain conditions,

No they dont on that silly claim about surviving the
warranty fine, but failing immediately after that expires.

and accordingly they estimate a warranty just long
enough to cover the product for a safe term, a
safe term for the manufacturer, not the user.

Have fun explaining how come not a single electronic device
I have ever owned has died just after the warranty has run out.

And that includes my latest gigantic widescreen TV too.

Of course it´s impossible to predict exactly how many years
the TV will last, but the manufacturer count with statistical
data which says, for instance, that a TV set is turned on
10 hours per day for instance, and taking that into account,
and estimating how long the weakest part of the TV will last
under these conditions, they can determine the warranty lapse.

Pity about the TVs that get left on all the time.

The claim is completely fanciful and those making that sort of
claim have obviously never actually designed a damned thing.

And only the stupidest manufacturer would deliberatly design
their product to die as soon as the warranty has expired
anyway, because the bulk of those who had bought such
a dud wouldnt be buying another from that manufacturer.

They also do product reliability testing to see
how long on average it is before a product fails.

No they dont with domestic appliances.

They dont even do that with mass market hard drives anymore.

Yes they do.

No they dont.

They quote the useful lifetime of a hardrive in MTBF hours.

That is calculated, not measured. Convert that MTBF
to years and you will discover why they cant possibility
have tested them to get those numbers.

Don´t answer "it´s impossible" if you are not prepared to give
a real explanation. Samsung, Seagate, WD... any decent hard
drive manufactures gives an estimate lifetime of their products.
These estimates are provided in the datasheet of each harddrive.

And they are ESTIMATES, not measured results.

Exactly, these are estimates,

Pity the claim was about TESTING, which doesnt happen, like I said.

and most of the time very accurate,

Like hell it is. Have you actually tried converting
the MTBF of a current hard drive to years ?

The average quality EIDE drive has a published MTBF of 400,000 hours.
That wouild be 45 years on my computer. I've had LOTS that never made
3 years. If they test 1000 drives for 400 hours and get one failure,
they have their MTBF of 400,000 hours - 1 failure in 400,000 hours of
running. They will actually do a larger test sample over a larger time
span Likely 2500 for 500 hours. That gives them 125,000,000 running
hours and if they have 3.125 failures they have a 400,000 hour MTBF.-
but that's how the numbers are arrived at if they are not just using
statistical analysis methods.(predictive failure). Today's hard drives
with S.M.A.R.T. technology can predict their failure date quite
accurately. (using third party software).I just pulled 2 drives from
service because they predicted their own death in less than 60 days.
One was made on the 123rd day of 2003 (seagate), the other the last
day of January 2004 (wd).
Being a WD Caviar retail drive it has a 1 year warranty. If it was a
"distribution" drive, it would have a 3 year warranty. Might have
lasted 2 years - but I don't take a chance on my data.
The Seagate has a 1 year warranty, and was in a computer that only
runs a few hours a week - and lasted less than 3 years.
I used to work for the (then) largest hard drive distributor in
Canada.

specially those concerning the maximum number of startups/stops
the drive can tolerate before the heads get completely worn.

Wrong again. Its such a round number it cant have been produced
by TESTING, and the number of starts and stops dont produce
any wear of the heads with modern hard drives anyway.

I don´t want to imply that all manufacturers are dishonest per se, but
I can easily see how a given manufacturer can produce different items,
with differents level of quality of design and manufacture. And these
differences *will* impact the useful lifetime of the final product.

Separate matter entirely to the claim that they do reliability TESTING with domestic appliances.

They dont, and dont with mass market hard drives either to
produce the MTBF or the number of start stop cycles either.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[James Sweet]

But it's the same reason that I continue to accept and use old
appliances that I can repair myself.
For example I refuse to buy a stove that incorporates a digital
timer/clock; they are virtually unrepairable! Eventually can see
myself, however, ending up with one of those and deliberately
disconnecting the digital timer clock or modifying the stove to use one
my older (saved) clock/timers or just dong away with the timer
altogether.

Why are they virtually unrepairable? The timer/clock modules have only a
handful of parts, and most of them are pretty standard. On top of that,
it's very rare in my experience for them to fail. The one microwave I've
fixed that had a problem with the timer board, it was a cracked solder
joint at a relay and was easy to fix. I've never seen a bad custom IC on
one, not saying it can't happen but it's certainly rare.

I have however seen quite a few of the synchronous motors that used to
drive the mechanical clock/timer assemblies fail.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence
is standard practice in the industry.

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

I totally disagree.

Your problem.

No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium Polymer battery
pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into a device.

Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Nobody said anything about separate chargers.

I just did.

ANd you DO see lithium AA and AAA batteries
- they are just not rechargable lithium

Pity we happened to be discussing rechargeable batterys.

(and in fact, there ARE rechargeable Lithiums in the AA format.)

Nope.

That would look after all the ipods and
ipodlikes, as well as all kinds of PDAs etc.

There's a reason cellphones dont all use the same standard battery.

Yes, there is. It's called "marketing" and "catch'em while you can"

Nope. Nokia for example use the same format battery
over multiple generations of their cellphones. Its actually
about a physical format that works well with cellphones.

Nokia has used several different battery standards. The 5100-6100
series uses the same battery, in Nicad, NiMh and Lithium flavours.
Other series of phones use different battery configurations.

Yes, primarily as a result of a change to the size and shape of the
phone that meant that the physical format and size of the battery
used with the 5***-6*** series was no longer suitable.

Much more sensible in this regard than Motorola and all the other manufacturers.

That last is going too far.

Something about a northern european mentality - they actually THINK.

Nope. That came about for other reasons.

And some panasonic cordless phones use standard
AA NiMH or NiCad batterys, so it cant have a damned
thing to do with any northern european mentality.

Some cellphone companys actually allow the end user to
update the firmware in the phone. Nokia generally doesnt.

I've actually got one that not only takes its own format battery,
but allows you to use AA batterys in an emergency, but that has
the real downside that its much thicker than current cellphones
and considerably bigger overall too.

My cordless phone does in fact use standard NiMH or NiCad AA
batterys, and its much thicker than most modern cellphones. Not as
important with a cordless which doesnt get carried around as much.

On the ipod nano it's just the simplicity of assembly that counts

Nope.

Please explain.

Its the tiny physical format that makes user changable batterys less
practical, particularly when you cant charge them outside the ipod easily.

There is no need to charge them outside the ipod if
all you want to do is make the ipod last longer than
the 2 year life of the current non-replaceable battery

Correct. But its quite feasible to replace the battery when it no longer
has an adequate charge retention, you dont have to throw the ipod away.

- it's crimped together, but not sealed, so if it gets wet it's finished,

It would be anyway even if the case was sealed, just like with cellphones.

and it IS possible to take it apart - but the battery is soldered
on, rather than plug-in, because it's simpler/cheaper.

Its obviously still possible to replace the battery.

Not if you can't get them, it isn't.

You'll be able to get them, just because of the volume of those sold.

Could still replace the battery - but they are NOT AVAILABLE.

NOT YET.

And by the time they are, the units will be obsolete.

Who cares if they still work fine ?

And if you get the beggars wet, the battery goes south.

Same with cellphones. There is no evil conspiracy,
its about producing a cost effective product.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy.

The OP did.

I said it was building as cheaply as possible (and often cheaper).

Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.

No problem - they are designed with EXCHANGEABLE
batteries so you can go weeks between charging.

Doesnt explain the fact that you can dismantle the phone fine.

It would have been considerably cheaper to glue the phone
together and still have a removeable back that contains the battery.

Ever try to charge a cellphone battery out in the bush in West Africa?
- where you DO see cell phones miles and miles from any electrical power?

They werent designed for that unusual situation.

The batteries get swapped out in town and recharged there.
You get two with your phone and "bob's your uncle" Just drop
off dead ones and pick up charged ones - pay a small fee.

And you can also replace just the battery and not the entire
phone when the battery no longer holds the charge adequately.

So much for the claim that the manufacturers deliberately force
you to replace the phone when you can just replace the battery.

Also, cell phones are a "vanity item" so there is a large aftermarket
in customized cases for some brands. There are also MANY that
can not be readilly dissassembled beyond removing the battery.

Hardly any dont allow you to replace the battery when that is necessary.

It's the bean-counters running the shop.

Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.

I've worked for a company (computer industry) that was
quite successful until a harvard MBA type started "managing"
the company. It went from profitable to 1.5 million dollars
a year loss in 18 months. Was gone in 22.

Clearly hasnt happened with Apple, Nokia, etc etc etc.

It came VERY close to happening to Aapple.

Not for that reason. Different reason entirely, the same one that sank Commodore.

Just about got Gateway too.

Again, not for that reason.

Might still get HP/Compaq if they don't get their corporate
head out of (A) the sand or (B) their backsides.

Bet it wont.

What happened to half the computer companies
that were in the market as little as 10 years ago?
The majority were micromanaged to death.

Nope, they died for other reasons. In the case of Commodore,
they were never going to survive once the bulk of their market
had moved off to dedicated games consoles.

In the case of DEC, they were never going to survive
once the bulk of the market had moved to PCs.

In the case of IBM, they were never going to survive in the
personal PC market once the vast bulk of the market no
longer needed the security blanket of the IBM logo and
they never had a hope in hell of competing with Taiwan.

Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard
batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

 

[James Sweet]

A friend bought a brand new Neptune washer that didn't last a month.
The dealer had to replace it TWICE before he had one that lasted over a
month.

I got one of those for free because the motor controller had failed and
the repair was supposed to cost $400. I got lucky and touching up a few
cracked solder joints fixed it. Another I got I wasn't quite so lucky
with and some of the mosfets had shorted which in turn took out just
about every semi on the board including the big custom chip. They used
underrated triacs on the upper control board as well and I've fixed a
number of those which were burned out by out of spec door lock motors.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Please explain why.

It should be obvious. Try counting the cost of all those sockets for
all the ics, let alone what that would do to the size of the device etc.

You couldnt even use surface mount anymore either.

No reason subassemblies can not be replaceable.

No point when there is only one with stuff like
an ipod, electric toothbrush, cellphone etc.

Connectors today can be made extremely compact,

And still cost signifcantly more than no connector at all.

With the failure rate with PCs so low, its a complete waste of money.

and with LSI the active components can all be put
into one plug-in component worth a couple of dollars.

What they actually do is surface mount that on a single component and
allow what is needed for the owner/monkey to press to be connected etc.

SMT could still be used on the "backbone" which
could also be a low cost field replaceable part.

Why would it be low cost when its the bulk of the product
like with an ipod, a cellphone, a cordless phone, etc etc etc.

Because even the way they are built today they are "low cost".

Pity thats true in spades of the device itself.

And I'm talking things like 2000 dollar large screen TVs like the Sony
mentioned thad had the drivers in the non-replaceable cable to the screen.

Thats just bad design.

The circuit in question likely costs Sony less than $3 to install where it is.
Add $10 to make it readilly replaceable, and you increase the cost by 0.5%

Sure, but its just another example of bad design.

There is absolutely NOTHING that cannot be made
serviceable in the consumer electronics arena.

Yes, but what is the point of making it easy to replace the
vast bulk of the device when the failure rate is so low ?

The failure rate is plenty high enough - even if you limit it to "infant mortality"

Nope, the modern reality is that is a hell of a lot cheaper overall to
just toss those in the bin and stamp out another in the asian factory.

Thats been the case for decades now with the cheapest domestic
appliances like toasters and the point at which it makes not sense to
increase the cost of the design so you can replace modules continues
to move up from the cheapest products to the more expensive ones.

Failure within the lifespan of the display panel is likely well over 5%.

Depends entirely on how you define the lifetime, and those are
mostly repairable by module swapping with laptops, notebooks,
TVs etc, tho its often quite a marginal proposition to do that
now with the cheapest laptops and notebooks that may well
need a new battery as well before its discarded etc.

On some brands of laptop computers it's a whole lot higher than that.

Sure, but thats the inevitable consequence of maintaining
stocks of spares and using expensive first world skilled
labor to swap the failed component.

PCs are still very modular indeed with the exception of the
motherboard and they still mostly have the cpu socketed,
even tho hardly anyone ever sees a cpu failure or a need
to upgrade the cpu either.

Yes, it makes sense to have cellphone batterys readily
replaceable, and the front cover etc, because batterys
do have a limited number of recharge cycles and people
do bugger up the covers quite often, but there isnt any
point in having more than a single module with all the
electronics on it with a cellphone or even a PC motherboard.

Will it cost more? Likely Does it have to? Not necessarily.

Corse it has to over no connector at all.

There are ways of doing things that add functionality without adding cost.

Nope, not over just one component.

Which is why you cant generally open plugpacks to repair
them anymore and why its been like that for decades now.

Would people buy it? Smart people would.

I doubt it when they have adequate information on the failure rate.

I suspect some on this list would not.

Its not a list, they are newsgroups.

OK. picky, picky.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
b <reverend_rogers@yahoo.com> wrote
Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the
cables to the screen - horizontal black line of death and you
toss a 2000? tv!

Just lousy design, no evil conspiracy.

Conspiracy of idiocy

There is no conspiracy, just idiocy.

they should hang the designers of that one!
Crimes against the environment.

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Explain that one.

It should be obvious what the cost of having connectors
for all the caps, resistors, ics etc would cost.

How does that affect the environment?

All those sockets etc have an environmental cost.

I'd love to hear the spin you can put on THIS!!!!!!

You wouldnt know what spin was if it bit you on your lard arse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

On 15 Jan 2007 17:37:57 -0800, "lsmartino" <luismartino76@gmail.com>
wrote:

Rod Speed ha escrito:


They can do the estimate considering an ambient temperature of 20ÂşC -
25ÂşC. Check the datasheet of any semiconductor and learn something
before you write. Any rise in the temperature will shorten the lifespan
of the product. To me, that´s a quite profitable scenario.


Also, you will notice that the same circuit will have electrolytic
capacitors near heat sources, when it´s a well known fact that
heat shortens dramatically the life of electrolytics caps.

In practice that isnt a significant problem with domestic appliances.
Essentially because you dont see many electros in that situation with them.

Are you crazy? Have you ever seen a modern SMPS? Try to tell all us
that a SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supply, in case you don´t know what a
SMPS is) don´t HAVE electrolytics caps, and that those caps doesn´t
have a finite lifespan. Even electrolytics are classified based on
their MBTF at certain temperatures. Again, try to find the datasheet of
some electrolitycs caps, and educate yourself.

And just about anything electronic today is using SMPSs

The manufacturer know how to properly design an electronic
circuit in order to provide a long life, but it also it knows how
to design it to fail within a short term under certain conditions,

No they dont on that silly claim about surviving the
warranty fine, but failing immediately after that expires.

I replace enought ATX computer SMPSs before they hit 3 years - many
within 2, and too many within one. And they are running, in many
cases, on protected power supplies.

No one is telling that the product will explode right after the
warranty expires, but that it can be designed to fail within a short
life span, especially with cheap products.

and accordingly they estimate a warranty just long
enough to cover the product for a safe term, a
safe term for the manufacturer, not the user.

Have fun explaining how come not a single electronic device
I have ever owned has died just after the warranty has run out.

And that includes my latest gigantic widescreen TV too.

Of course it´s impossible to predict exactly how many years
the TV will last, but the manufacturer count with statistical
data which says, for instance, that a TV set is turned on
10 hours per day for instance, and taking that into account,
and estimating how long the weakest part of the TV will last
under these conditions, they can determine the warranty lapse.

Pity about the TVs that get left on all the time.


A TV, or a computer monitor left on all the time will last less time of
course. A CRT has a definite lifespan, and if the monitor or the TV set
is a LCD based one, the CFL bulbs used to light up the screen have a
definite lifespan. Did you knew that, Mr. Know Nothing ?

And certain parts ONLY fail on start-up because of power surges. Some

devices would run litterally forever if never shut off - others are
robust enough to handle starting and stopping but have finite life
devices. My experience with computer monitors (over 17 years) has been
those left on 24/7 generally outlast those that are started and
stopped several times a day. Phosphor burn used to be the major
problem with 24/7 operation. Today it is SMPS failure. I can't
remember the last monitor I had to replace due to CRT failure. My own
newest monitor is well over 5 years old now. It is generally never
turned off (just powers itself down when I leave)

The claim is completely fanciful and those making that sort of
claim have obviously never actually designed a damned thing.

And only the stupidest manufacturer would deliberatly design
their product to die as soon as the warranty has expired
anyway, because the bulk of those who had bought such
a dud wouldnt be buying another from that manufacturer.

How many people who owned Chevy Vegas bought a second one? THOUSANDS.
And how many who bought Vega bought another Chevy? Thousands and
thousands and tens of thousands. And the average Vega did NOT make it
through warranty. How many people who had their Cadillacs in the shop
more than in their driveway bought another Cadillac? Thousands. And a
few, after the second or third, got smart and bought a Lexus. It took
a friend 7 or 8 Caddies over 3 years to finally make the change. He
figured it had to just be his luck untill he talked to enough other
owners to be convinced it was the CAR, not him.

Tell that to the manufacturer of Coby products, for instance. They have
quite a long time selling trash that fails quite quickly.


They quote the useful lifetime of a hardrive in MTBF hours.

That is calculated, not measured. Convert that MTBF
to years and you will discover why they cant possibility
have tested them to get those numbers.

Don´t answer "it´s impossible" if you are not prepared to give
a real explanation. Samsung, Seagate, WD... any decent hard
drive manufactures gives an estimate lifetime of their products.
These estimates are provided in the datasheet of each harddrive.

And they are ESTIMATES, not measured results.

Educated guesses. Finite Element Analysis. Pretty accurate predictive

methodology.

Exactly, these are estimates,

Pity the claim was about TESTING, which doesnt happen, like I said.

and most of the time very accurate,

Like hell it is. Have you actually tried converting
the MTBF of a current hard drive to years ?


It can be something like 15 years or more of constant use, without a
stop. And I have seen hard drives surviving at least more than 10 years
of hard work.

specially those concerning the maximum number of startups/stops
the drive can tolerate before the heads get completely worn.

Wrong again. Its such a round number it cant have been produced
by TESTING, and the number of starts and stops dont produce
any wear of the heads with modern hard drives anyway.


You are wrong again. When the platters stops, the heads contact the
platters. While the platters are spinning at full speed, the heads are
separated from them by a small air cushion formed by the rotational
speed of the platter. As soon the HDD is turned off, the platters loses
speed, and eventually the air cushion dissapear, thus the heads make
contact with the platters. The same happens in reverse sequence when
the HDD starts. That´s why start / stop cicles have a definite impact
in any HDD. Have you ever wondered why a HDD last less in a home
environment than in a office environment?

Check this out http://phorums.com.au/archive/index.php/t-42666.html It
might teach you a thing or two.
ANd Hard drives that are never shut off generally DO last

significantly longer than those that get powered down (which is why I
disable power management on my servers). I have a set of 10 year old
scsi drives in one of the servers that will likely go another 10 years
if I don't scrap the server. That server has not had a SINGLE FAILURE
over those 10 years. It cost about $10,000 new. The drives were likely
over $1000 each. They are 8gb?
The EIDE drive I just installed is 160gb and cost $79.00. Will it last
10 years? Not likely!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[lsmartino]

clare ha escrito:

I replace enought ATX computer SMPSs before they hit 3 years - many
within 2, and too many within one. And they are running, in many
cases, on protected power supplies.

Me too, and the problem doesn´t stops with the SMPS. I have seen
enough motherboard failures caused by defective capacitors. In fact,
there is even a website www.badcaps.net dedicated to motherboard
failures caused by bad capacitors.

A TV, or a computer monitor left on all the time will last less time of
course. A CRT has a definite lifespan, and if the monitor or the TV set
is a LCD based one, the CFL bulbs used to light up the screen have a
definite lifespan. Did you knew that, Mr. Know Nothing ?

And certain parts ONLY fail on start-up because of power surges. Some
devices would run litterally forever if never shut off - others are
robust enough to handle starting and stopping but have finite life
devices. My experience with computer monitors (over 17 years) has been
those left on 24/7 generally outlast those that are started and
stopped several times a day. Phosphor burn used to be the major
problem with 24/7 operation. Today it is SMPS failure. I can't
remember the last monitor I had to replace due to CRT failure. My own
newest monitor is well over 5 years old now. It is generally never
turned off (just powers itself down when I leave)

That´s interesting. In my experience I have found that computer CRT
monitors left 24/7 on, tend to present an overall decrease in
brightness and focus in less than 4 years, and in some cases they get
pretty unusable. The cheaper the monitor is, the worse is the effect.
Of course, turning it off/on constantly isn´t a good idea either.
Normally I set them to turn off automatically if the computer is left
unused for 1 hour.

Educated guesses. Finite Element Analysis. Pretty accurate predictive
methodology.

ANd Hard drives that are never shut off generally DO last
significantly longer than those that get powered down (which is why I
disable power management on my servers). I have a set of 10 year old
scsi drives in one of the servers that will likely go another 10 years
if I don't scrap the server. That server has not had a SINGLE FAILURE
over those 10 years. It cost about $10,000 new. The drives were likely
over $1000 each. They are 8gb?
The EIDE drive I just installed is 160gb and cost $79.00. Will it last
10 years? Not likely!

I agree with that. I too disable power management in my harddrives and
I haven´t had a single failure with them, and also I have found that
HDDs that are normally 24/7 ON lasts a lot longer, and when they fail,
is normally because a bearing failure, for instance. In the other hand,
I usually replace the HDD´s of my computer as soon as they get 5 years
old. There is no need to take unnecessary risks, specially when the
capacity of HDDs increases each year.