Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:04:01 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence
is standard practice in the industry.

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

I totally disagree.

Your problem.

No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium Polymer battery
pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into a device.

Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Sorry but you are missinformed.

Nope.

Check here
http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/default.aspx
These are AA and AAA lithium batteries.

Pity they wont fit in an ipod. And arent practical with electric toothbrushes either.

Fantastic for digital cameras though.

--
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:36:50 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

b <reverend_rogers@yahoo.com> wrote
Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables
to the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000? tv!

Just lousy design, no evil conspiracy.

Conspiracy of idiocy

they should hang the designers of that one!
Crimes against the environment.

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Explain that one. I'd love to hear the spin you can put on THIS!!!!!!

--
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[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

Please explain how the manufacturer of a light bulb, fluorescent
lamp or CFL can provide an estimate of the lifetime of the lamp.

That is trivial to do by running an adequate sized batch of
incandescent light bulbs under appropriate test conditions etc.

Don´t say "They can´t because it´s impossible".
Explain exactly why it´s impossible.

Its up to those who claim that its possible to design a device
to die one year after the warrant expires how that can be done.

Well, it can be estimated how long will a power semiconductor run if
you leave it without a proper heatsink. Open any Samsung TV, for
instance, to see for yourself how important transistors are left bare,
dissipatting heat to the air. I don´t see why it should be difficult
for the manufacturer to know that these particular transistors left
overheating will fail within a finite number of hours. Also, you will
notice that the same circuit will have electrolytic capacitors near
heat sources, when it´s a well known fact that heat shortens
dramatically the life of electrolytics caps. The manufacturer know how
to properly design an electronic circuit in order to provide a long
life, but it also it knows how to design it to fail within a short term
under certain conditions, and accordingly they estimate a warranty just
long enough to cover the product for a safe term, a safe term for the
manufacturer, not the user.

Of course it´s impossible to predict exactly how many years the TV
will last, but the manufacturer count with statistical data which says,
for instance, that a TV set is turned on 10 hours per day for instance,
and taking that into account, and estimating how long the weakest part
of the TV will last under these conditions, they can determine the
warranty lapse.

The quote the useful lifetime of a hardrive in MTBF hours.

That is calculated, not measured. Convert that MTBF
to years and you will discover why they cant possibility
have tested them to get those numbers.

Don´t answer "it´s impossible" if you are not prepared to give
a real explanation. Samsung, Seagate, WD... any decent hard
drive manufactures gives an estimate lifetime of their products.
These estimates are provided in the datasheet of each harddrive.

And they are ESTIMATES, not measured results.

Exactly, these are estimates, and most of the time very accurate,
specially those concerning the maximum number of startups/stops the
drive can tolerate before the heads get completely worn.

I don´t want to imply that all manufacturers are dishonest per se, but
I can easily see how a given manufacturer can produce different items,
with differents level of quality of design and manufacture. And these
differences *will* impact the useful lifetime of the final product.

 

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:07:10 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Please explain why.

It should be obvious. Try counting the cost of all those sockets for
all the ics, let alone what that would do to the size of the device etc.

You couldnt even use surface mount anymore either.
No reason subassemblies can not be replaceable. Connectors today can

be made extremely compact, and with LSI the active components can all
be put into one plug-in component worth a couple of dollars. SMT could
still be used on the "backbone" which could also be a low cost field
replaceable part. There is absolutely NOTHING that cannot be made
serviceable in the consumer electronics arena. Will it cost more?
Likely Does it have to? Not necessarily. Would people buy it? Smart
people would. I suspect some on this list would not.

--
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[Andrew VK3BFA]

Rod Speed wrote:

Andrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
Andrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote
William Noble wrote

Just curious - what do you do for a living? - you seem to have an
amazing lack of knowledge across many fields - is it accountancy?.

Nope.

And how do you manage to translate crayon to ascii text?

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

No surprise that you got the bums rush, right out the door.

No, it wasnt a surprise - they paid me to go. Took ages to work it so
they did. Best move I ever made, out of the loony rat race and crazy
people. So I spend my time arguing with the brain dead and fixing stuff
that otherwise would go to landfill. Just my thing.

Whats yours - besides being a disagreeable little prick with too much
time on their hands? Do you actually DO ANYTHING or just talk crap?

Andrew VK3BFA.


Andrew VK3BFA.

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

That´s why the manufacturer puts the charging circuit *inside*
the cellphone or the laptop, to avoid charging problems.

Yes, and why you dont see rechargeable lithium AA and AAA
batterys, because some fool will inevitably put them in an inappropriate
charger and they will go bang very spectacularly indeed.

Not necessarily. They can move the charging circuit to the cell in
itself. Of course that will steal space from the chemical part of the
cell with the resultant capacity loss, but it can be done. Thus the
charger used to recharge the battery becames inmaterial because any
proper voltage source will suffice. In fact, since lithium cells
produce 3V, and a AA battery shouldn´t produce more than 1.5V, I
suspect that these lithium cells have some form of voltage regulating
circuit inside. If that is true, then it´s possible that in several
years that circuit will be designed to allow a safe recharging of a
lithium AA or AAA battery.

Also, the IPOD battery is a lithium rechargeable one, so a
lithium battery charging circuit can be made as small as needed.

Yes, but we were discussing why the battery
cant be a STANDARD AA OR AAA FORMAT.

Put simply: if the manufacturer *wants* to design a product with batteries
that can be replaced or recharged the manufacturer *can* do it.

Not with a standard battery format they cant, because that
would inevitably see some put them on inappropriate chargers
that would produce spectacular results when they did that.

The technollogy exists, and in fact it´s in use actually.

No it isnt with STANDARD BATTERY FORMATS.

Take this cordless phone, for instance,

http://gigaset.siemens.com/shc/0,1935,hq_en_0_116691_rArNrNrNrN_variation%253A-5_pageType%253ATechnical%2Bdata_imagePos%253A0,00.html#content

It´s designed to work with standard AAA rechargeable batteries. Also I
own a Siemens C4000 cordless phone and it works with standard AA
rechargeable batteries. It can take NiCd or NiMh batteries. So, *if*
the manufacturer wants to develop a product using standard rechageable
batteries, *it can do it*.

Even there are different chemistries available, so if an applicattion works
best with a NiMh battery, or a NiCad one, that battery can be used.

Pity about the problem with putting a lithium battery in a charger
thats designed to charge NiMh and NiCad standard format betterys.

 

On 15 Jan 2007 15:07:10 -0800, "lsmartino" <luismartino76@gmail.com>
wrote:

Rod Speed ha escrito:

Michael Kennedy <Mikek400@remthis.comcast.net> wrote:

Separate matter entirely to the mindlessly silly claim that
its even possible to design an appliance to break about a
year after the warranty runs out, with most appliances.

Why do you say it is impossible?

Because it is impossible ? Novel concept I realise.


Please explain how the manufacturer of a light bulb, fluorescent lamp
or CFL can provide an estimate of the lifetime of the lamp. Don´t say
"They can´t because it´s impossible". Explain exactly why it´s
impossible.

MTBF is a standard ENGINEERING concept. The fact it is not available

from many manufacturers for many products is due to the fact there is
NO ENGINEERING involved. A product is "copied" and "modified for
production".This is dictated by COST. As long as it works when it
leaves the factory, and a small sample lasts (at least a reasonable
percentage of the sample) longer than the 90 day warranty, they are
happy. As for brands and brand loyalty, who even has a clue WHO makes
90% of the consumer electronics products on the market today.
Previously quality brand names are now simply licenced and attatched
to product from unknown and unspecified offshore manufacturing
concerns. The typical North American consumer doesn't know or care who
made the product they buy, and will buy another made by the same
manufacturer, under a different name, and not have a clue. It's nice
looking, or has "gee whiz" factor, or brand cachet (they've seen it
advertized by a catchy, moronic TV ad) so they buy it.

When designing the product the engineers figure the average useage of the appliance every day and
then calculate about how long it will take before a failure.

Nice theory. The reality is that that isnt even
possible with most domestic appliances.

Domestic? What's domestic? Made in Mexico? Made in Peurto Rico? Made
in Guam? Or assembled in "north America" of imported parts?

It isnt even feasible with stuff as basic as an incandescent light bulb.
A CFL in spades. A moulded power cord or plug pack in spades.

They also do product reliability testing to see how long on average it is before a product fails.

No they dont with domestic appliances.

When did you last work for a domestic appliance or electronics
manufacturer that you can say they do not with authority?

And are you an engineer that you can claim with impunity that it is
impossible????

I'll give you IMPRACTICAL at today's price-point, with today's
de-centralized offshore "manufacturing" and the lack of engineering
involved in the manufacture. Have you SEEN a chinese electronics
"factory" MANY of the parts are built/assembled by totally unskilled
workers (including children) in "cottage industries" and then
assembled either in a central facility or by another "cottage
industry", then packaged and collected to a central facility for
trans-shipment to the buyer or "north american manufacturer".

There is NO quality control. You CAN get chinese goods of exceptional
quality - and from the same "manufacturer", on the same day, get an
"identical" product of such abysmal quality you would not believe it
came from the same PLANET, muchless the same supplier.
This is why REPUTABLE distributors of chinese electronics test and
repackage ALL of their product before retailing. North american
quality control can sort the GOOD stuff, which can be sold under a
particular brand name, from the "also-rans" that are sold off to
lesser brand companies to sell at a lower cost and/or to a less
discriminating clientelle.

They dont even do that with mass market hard drives anymore.


Depends what you call "mass market" If a company puts their name and a

2 or 3 year warranty on a hard drive, they have either calculated or
empirically tested the product so they KNOW what their warranty
exposure is.
If they are "selling on cost" with a 90 day warranty, nothing has been
either tested or calculated.(beyond the fact they are making enough
that they can break even if a few more than they guessed fail, and 50%
of those get back for warranty within the alotted time, and are
returned according to the warranty requirement (in original
shipping/packageing).

Yes they do. The quote the useful lifetime of a hardrive in MTBF hours.
Don´t answer "it´s impossible" if you are not prepared to give a real
explanation. Samsung, Seagate, WD... any decent hard drive manufactures
gives an estimate lifetime of their products. These estimates are
provided in the datasheet of each harddrive.

--
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[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence
is standard practice in the industry.

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

I totally disagree.

Your problem.

No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium Polymer battery
pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into a device.

Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Sorry but you are missinformed.

Nope.

Check here
http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/default.aspx
These are AA and AAA lithium batteries.

Pity they wont fit in an ipod. And arent practical with electric toothbrushes either.

Fantastic for digital cameras though.

Yep, but you cant get rechargable AA and AAA lithiums and so
you get better life when you dont use standard format batterys.

 

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:51:24 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

Mike Hartigan <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote
Rod Speed rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com wrote

Ever wonder why Dilbert and the television show
"The Office" are so popular...because they are so true.

Nope, because they exaggerate what really happens.

Isn't "what really happens" the same as "true"?

Nope, Dilbert ain 'what really happens'

What am I missing here?

The exaggeration, stupid.

It is BASED ON FACT.

Perhaps "true" is not accurate since they don't deal with actual events.

Or because its exaggerated.
It is BASED ON REALITY

"True to life" is probably a better characterization of 'The Office' and 'Dilbert'.

Nope, its an exaggeration of reality.
It is a Parody. This necessitates that there be recognisable truth.

That is what caricatures have always been about.

Caricatures make reality entertaining.

So can Dilbert and The Office.

But they still reflect reality.

Nope, they exaggerate reality.
Semantics.

I say pot-ate-oh, you say poh-taght-oh

They wouldn't be funny if they didn't. 'The Office' is a caricature
- that's why it's funny on the particular level that it is funny.

And its not true to life, its a caricature/exaggeration of life.

I find that people who have never worked
in an office are less likely to 'get it'.

Sure, but thats not surprising.
What's surprising with SOME that I see working in SOME offices (the

"dilbert types" )is that they get anything at all!

'Scrubs', on the other hand, is farce. You
don't have to work in a hospital to enjoy it.

I dont work in a hospital and dont enjoy it either.

Its slapstick, nothing like reality.

What you neatly gross over is what happens when
engineering says it can't make a product based on
the imaginary price point...who then decides?

Its never that black and white either.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

I will give you a hint....it ain't engineering.

It aint the bean counters either if it isnt possible, stupid.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

And did I mention that the CEO's bonus is tied to this product?

No it isnt.

Typically, it is.

Nope.

Particularly when the target price is 'impossible'.

Fantasy.

In the end, a company will produce the cheapest junk that it can sell...

Have fun explaining ipods and countless other products.

Are you suggesting that Apple did not try
to minimize the production cost of the iPod?

Nope, that its clearly nothing like the cheapest junk that they can sell.

Perhaps you could explain why they are made in China?

Irrelevant to whether its actually the cheapest junk that they can sell.

The real world is nothing like as black and white as you claim.

and it will work very hard to insure that the consumer
needs to buy another new one from them...

Having it not last long is a hopeless way of doing that.

Actually, you're both wrong.

Nope. He is.

The objective is to sell a product NOW.

Its much more complicated than that too.

Given the rate of change, particularly with technology
products, repeat sales are no longer an objective.

Bullshit, most obviously with Apple.

Build them as cheaply as possible TODAY.

Have fun explaining the ipods and countless
other products that are nothing like that.

This year's bottom line is what the CEO's bonus is based on.

Nothing like the original claim about the CEO's bonus.

And it aint necessarily true of quite a few CEOs either.

and have to get any and all support from them.

Plenty avoid products like that.

That's pure BS.

Nope. Even you should be able to find countless
examples of individuals doing that using groups.google.

Consumers are motivated, first and foremost, by purchase price.

Not all of them are. If they were, you wouldnt see so many ipods sold.

Or those stupid expensive brand name shoes in spades.

Or SUVs either.

That's the reason so many products have a 'Made in China' label.

Nope, the real reason is because it costs less to manufacture there.

Apple and a few other American companies have
successfully marketed a perception of quality
(actually, hipness), but still import the products.

Irrelevant to that silly claim that consumers buy on price.

If they did, they wouldnt be buying ipods.

It is all about separating the consumer from as
much of their money as painlessly as possible.

Its never that black and white either.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

And that is called a conspiracy.

Wrong again, its you silly little 'planned obsolescence'
thats a conspiracy, if it was actually possible.

Actually, it has nothing to do with a conspiracy.
It's simply using a business model that works.

It isnt even possible to use planned obsolescence as a business model,
essentially because it isnt possible to design a product to fail just after
the warranty has expired, even if some operation was actually that stupid.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Andrew VK3BFA]

clare wrote:

On 15 Jan 2007 15:07:10 -0800, "lsmartino" <luismartino76@gmail.com
wrote:


Rod Speed ha escrito:

etc etc.

I thought this rod speed "person " was a bit too much, so did a Google
on [ "Rod Speed" troll.]

Pages of stuff.

This one is a good summary...

http://phorums.com.au/archive/index.php/t-42666.html

Andrew VK3BFA.

 

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:01:43 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote

Having BTDT (for 30+ yrs) w/ several engineering/manufacturing
firms from very large to start-ups which grew until were bought by
very large, I have to agree w/ Rick here...while there are MBAs and
accountants, and they have very important functions, in none of
these places did they dictate to Engineering nor were "engineers
are under the thumb of accountants." As Rick says, where the
cost-accounting enters the design phase is in trying to make a
price-point which is a function of market niche, competition,
timing, comparative product advantage vis a vis competitors',
etc., etc., etc., ... After that, it then becomes an engineering
problem of how to design, fabricate and distribute (and support)
the product. As one moves from more complex, costly products to
less expensive, the compromises to accomplish the goal become more
severe. If your product is a plastic toy to try to sell millions,
the margin per item has to be miniscule. If, otoh, you're
building a high-end anything, that is a different set of
constraints. Either way, unless the product can be designed and
manufactured and ultimately, sold for a profit, there won't be any
more company so the cost point is as important as anything else.

While I respect your opinion, it sounds like you are reading
straight from a textbook.

After decades in manufacturing, I can tell you
that I have never seen it work that way.

Reality is much different than the academic BS model....
see Dilbert for a real life reference.

Nothing like real life.

Ever wonder why Dilbert and the television show
"The Office" are so popular...because they are so true.

Nope, because they exaggerate what really happens.

That is what caricatures have always been about.

What you neatly gross over is what happens when
engineering says it can't make a product based on
the imaginary price point...who then decides?

Its never that black and white either.

I will give you a hint....it ain't engineering.

It aint the bean counters either if it isnt possible, stupid.

Not stupid. It IS the bean counters - and for the
pricepoint DICTATED it is impossible to make a
QUALITY product with any kind of consistency.

Utterly mangled all over again. Its actually the engineers that
choose to make things in a way that minimises the cost of
manufacturer, and maximises the reliability, even if that does
produce a product that is difficult or impractical to repair if it fails.

Most obviously with plugpacks which cant be opened without
physically breaking them, and molded power cords etc.

It's the bean counters that dictate the quality or lack thereof that
makes the part failure prone in the first place, and glue is a lot
cheaper than screws. Moulded power cords, on the other hand, are not
only CHEAPER, but "more reliable" They are cheaper to make than just
the replaceable end itself because they are moulded in place.

So the customer becomes the QC department.

No they dont. And thats got nothing to do with his stupid claim
about who gets to decide how things are constructed anyway.

This is getting to be like mud wrestling with a pig.

--
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[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
clare at snyder.on.ca wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Using the battery to enforce product obscelence
is standard practice in the industry.

Mindlessly superficial. The reality is that its a lot easier to
allow battery replacement with some items than with others.

I totally disagree.

Your problem.

No reason they can't make a new standard - Lithium Polymer battery
pack about the size of a SD card that just snaps into a device.

Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Nobody said anything about separate chargers.

I just did.

ANd you DO see lithium AA and AAA batteries
- they are just not rechargable lithium

Pity we happened to be discussing rechargeable batterys.

(and in fact, there ARE rechargeable Lithiums in the AA format.)

Nope.

That would look after all the ipods and
ipodlikes, as well as all kinds of PDAs etc.

There's a reason cellphones dont all use the same standard battery.

Yes, there is. It's called "marketing" and "catch'em while you can"

Nope. Nokia for example use the same format battery
over multiple generations of their cellphones. Its actually
about a physical format that works well with cellphones.

I've actually got one that not only takes its own format battery,
but allows you to use AA batterys in an emergency, but that has
the real downside that its much thicker than current cellphones
and considerably bigger overall too.

My cordless phone does in fact use standard NiMH or NiCad AA
batterys, and its much thicker than most modern cellphones. Not as
important with a cordless which doesnt get carried around as much.

On the ipod nano it's just the simplicity of assembly that counts

Nope.

Please explain.

Its the tiny physical format that makes user changable batterys less
practical, particularly when you cant charge them outside the ipod easily.

- it's crimped together, but not sealed, so if it gets wet it's finished,

It would be anyway even if the case was sealed, just like with cellphones.

and it IS possible to take it apart - but the battery is soldered
on, rather than plug-in, because it's simpler/cheaper.

Its obviously still possible to replace the battery.

Not if you can't get them, it isn't.

You'll be able to get them, just because of the volume of those sold.

Could still replace the battery - but they are NOT AVAILABLE.

NOT YET.

And by the time they are, the units will be obsolete.

Who cares if they still work fine ?

And if you get the beggars wet, the battery goes south.

Same with cellphones. There is no evil conspiracy,
its about producing a cost effective product.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy.

The OP did.

I said it was building as cheaply as possible (and often cheaper).

Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.

It's the bean-counters running the shop.

Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.

I've worked for a company (computer industry) that was
quite successful until a harvard MBA type started "managing"
the company. It went from profitable to 1.5 million dollars
a year loss in 18 months. Was gone in 22.

Clearly hasnt happened with Apple, Nokia, etc etc etc.

Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard
batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

 

[John Husvar]

In article <1168883919.417855.286380@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:

A whole big bunch of text and data files will
_still_ fit on a floppy. It's just that floppy drives are being replaced
by inexpensive CD and DVD RW storage that store more and have better
data retention, more or less.


Better data retention? Think again.

Hard drive/tape/floppy (as in magnetic) storage have the best lifespan.

DC/DVD storage life can be measured in just a few years.

Ach, so? I'll have to look farther into this. I'd heard some mumblings
about CD and DVD not being as lasting a storage method as they were
first thought to be.

Archival storage of data is a BIG deal that the industry doesn't like
to talk about.

Well, I suppose one could print and store all all the data records on
acid-free paper and then physically go find the ones they wanted.
Shouldn't take more than a medium-sized army of clerks and only a small
hollowed mountain range for the storage.

We could then test the adage about it requiring (some large number)
clerks working (some large number) years to make an error a computer can
make in nanoseconds too.

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Please explain why.

It should be obvious. Try counting the cost of all those sockets for
all the ics, let alone what that would do to the size of the device etc.

You couldnt even use surface mount anymore either.

No reason subassemblies can not be replaceable.

No point when there is only one with stuff like
an ipod, electric toothbrush, cellphone etc.

Connectors today can be made extremely compact,

And still cost signifcantly more than no connector at all.

With the failure rate with PCs so low, its a complete waste of money.

and with LSI the active components can all be put
into one plug-in component worth a couple of dollars.

What they actually do is surface mount that on a single component and
allow what is needed for the owner/monkey to press to be connected etc.

SMT could still be used on the "backbone" which
could also be a low cost field replaceable part.

Why would it be low cost when its the bulk of the product
like with an ipod, a cellphone, a cordless phone, etc etc etc.

There is absolutely NOTHING that cannot be made
serviceable in the consumer electronics arena.

Yes, but what is the point of making it easy to replace the
vast bulk of the device when the failure rate is so low ?

Yes, it makes sense to have cellphone batterys readily
replaceable, and the front cover etc, because batterys
do have a limited number of recharge cycles and people
do bugger up the covers quite often, but there isnt any
point in having more than a single module with all the
electronics on it with a cellphone or even a PC motherboard.

Will it cost more? Likely Does it have to? Not necessarily.

Corse it has to over no connector at all.

Would people buy it? Smart people would.

I doubt it when they have adequate information on the failure rate.

I suspect some on this list would not.

Its not a list, they are newsgroups.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
b <reverend_rogers@yahoo.com> wrote
Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes
terry <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables
to the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000? tv!

Just lousy design, no evil conspiracy.

Conspiracy of idiocy

There is no conspiracy, just idiocy.

they should hang the designers of that one!
Crimes against the environment.

It would fuck the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Explain that one.

It should be obvious what the cost of having connectors
for all the caps, resistors, ics etc would cost.

I'd love to hear the spin you can put on THIS!!!!!!

You wouldnt know what spin was if it bit you on your lard arse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[lsmartino]

Andrew VK3BFA ha escrito:

clare wrote:

I thought this rod speed "person " was a bit too much, so did a Google
on [ "Rod Speed" troll.]

Pages of stuff.

This one is a good summary...

http://phorums.com.au/archive/index.php/t-42666.html

Andrew VK3BFA.

I started to suspect that he was a troll, and you confirmed my
suspicions... *sigh*

 

[Rod Speed]

lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote

Rod Speed wrote

Please explain how the manufacturer of a light bulb, fluorescent
lamp or CFL can provide an estimate of the lifetime of the lamp.

That is trivial to do by running an adequate sized batch of
incandescent light bulbs under appropriate test conditions etc.

Don´t say "They can´t because it´s impossible".
Explain exactly why it´s impossible.

Its up to those who claim that its possible to design a device
to die one year after the warrant expires how that can be done.

Well, it can be estimated how long will a power semiconductor
run if you leave it without a proper heatsink.

Not in a domestic environment it aint, because
the ambient temperature varys so much.

I got a bit of a start relatively recently when someone was having
overheating problems with their PC to discover that they were one
of the few in this area who were silly enough to have no form of
cooling whatever, not even a swamp cooler, in an area which can
see 10 days over 40C some summers. We had one just last week
and it got to 44C, and it was like walking into a furnace walking
outside my airconditioned house.

Open any Samsung TV, for instance, to see for yourself
how important transistors are left bare, dissipatting heat
to the air. I don´t see why it should be difficult for the
manufacturer to know that these particular transistors
left overheating will fail within a finite number of hours.

There is no finite number of hours, because the
ambient temp varys so much in domestic situations.

Those who dont have any cooling at all in an area which
can see a week over 40C wont survive the warranty
period and those who have decent air conditioning will
find that the TV lasts long past the warranty period.

Also, you will notice that the same circuit will have electrolytic
capacitors near heat sources, when it´s a well known fact that
heat shortens dramatically the life of electrolytics caps.

In practice that isnt a significant problem with domestic appliances.
Essentially because you dont see many electros in that situation with them.

The manufacturer know how to properly design an electronic
circuit in order to provide a long life, but it also it knows how
to design it to fail within a short term under certain conditions,

No they dont on that silly claim about surviving the
warranty fine, but failing immediately after that expires.

and accordingly they estimate a warranty just long
enough to cover the product for a safe term, a
safe term for the manufacturer, not the user.

Have fun explaining how come not a single electronic device
I have ever owned has died just after the warranty has run out.

And that includes my latest gigantic widescreen TV too.

Of course it´s impossible to predict exactly how many years
the TV will last, but the manufacturer count with statistical
data which says, for instance, that a TV set is turned on
10 hours per day for instance, and taking that into account,
and estimating how long the weakest part of the TV will last
under these conditions, they can determine the warranty lapse.

Pity about the TVs that get left on all the time.

The claim is completely fanciful and those making that sort of
claim have obviously never actually designed a damned thing.

And only the stupidest manufacturer would deliberatly design
their product to die as soon as the warranty has expired
anyway, because the bulk of those who had bought such
a dud wouldnt be buying another from that manufacturer.

They also do product reliability testing to see
how long on average it is before a product fails.

No they dont with domestic appliances.

They dont even do that with mass market hard drives anymore.

Yes they do.

No they dont.

They quote the useful lifetime of a hardrive in MTBF hours.

That is calculated, not measured. Convert that MTBF
to years and you will discover why they cant possibility
have tested them to get those numbers.

Don´t answer "it´s impossible" if you are not prepared to give
a real explanation. Samsung, Seagate, WD... any decent hard
drive manufactures gives an estimate lifetime of their products.
These estimates are provided in the datasheet of each harddrive.

And they are ESTIMATES, not measured results.

Exactly, these are estimates,

Pity the claim was about TESTING, which doesnt happen, like I said.

and most of the time very accurate,

Like hell it is. Have you actually tried converting
the MTBF of a current hard drive to years ?

specially those concerning the maximum number of startups/stops
the drive can tolerate before the heads get completely worn.

Wrong again. Its such a round number it cant have been produced
by TESTING, and the number of starts and stops dont produce
any wear of the heads with modern hard drives anyway.

I don´t want to imply that all manufacturers are dishonest per se, but
I can easily see how a given manufacturer can produce different items,
with differents level of quality of design and manufacture. And these
differences *will* impact the useful lifetime of the final product.

Separate matter entirely to the claim that they do reliability TESTING with domestic appliances.

They dont, and dont with mass market hard drives either to
produce the MTBF or the number of start stop cycles either.

 

[Rod Speed]

Andrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote

Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote
William Noble wrote

Just curious - what do you do for a living? - you seem to have an
amazing lack of knowledge across many fields - is it accountancy?.

Nope.

And how do you manage to translate crayon to ascii text?

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

No surprise that you got the bums rush, right out the door.

No, it wasnt a surprise - they paid me to go.

Because its cheaper for them to do that than to continue to 'employ' you.

Took ages to work it so they did.

No it didnt, they did that wholesale.

Best move I ever made, out of the loony rat race and crazy people.

They say the same things about the dregs like you who cant manage
to work out the basics on redundancy or anything else at all, either.

So I spend my time arguing with the brain dead and fixing
stuff that otherwise would go to landfill. Just my thing.

You just mindlessly bay at the moon and everyone has noticed.

Whats yours - besides being a disagreeable little prick with too much
time on their hands? Do you actually DO ANYTHING or just talk crap?

Any 2 year old could do better than that pathetic effort.

Get one to help you before posting again, if anyone is
actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near one.

 

[Mike Hartigan]

In article <512erfF1hn0rqU1@mid.individual.net>,
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com says...

Mike Hartigan <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote
Rod Speed rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com wrote

Ever wonder why Dilbert and the television show
"The Office" are so popular...because they are so true.

Nope, because they exaggerate what really happens.

Isn't "what really happens" the same as "true"?

Nope, Dilbert ain 'what really happens'

Maybe you would be so kind as to explain the difference between "what
really happens" and "true".

What am I missing here?

The exaggeration, stupid.

Well, there goes any hope I had for an intelligent discussion. I'm
outta here.

Perhaps "true" is not accurate since they don't deal with actual events.

Or because its exaggerated.

"True to life" is probably a better characterization of 'The Office' and 'Dilbert'.

Nope, its an exaggeration of reality.

That is what caricatures have always been about.

Caricatures make reality entertaining.

So can Dilbert and The Office.

But they still reflect reality.

Nope, they exaggerate reality.

They wouldn't be funny if they didn't. 'The Office' is a caricature
- that's why it's funny on the particular level that it is funny.

And its not true to life, its a caricature/exaggeration of life.

I find that people who have never worked
in an office are less likely to 'get it'.

Sure, but thats not surprising.

'Scrubs', on the other hand, is farce. You
don't have to work in a hospital to enjoy it.

I dont work in a hospital and dont enjoy it either.

Its slapstick, nothing like reality.

What you neatly gross over is what happens when
engineering says it can't make a product based on
the imaginary price point...who then decides?

Its never that black and white either.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

I will give you a hint....it ain't engineering.

It aint the bean counters either if it isnt possible, stupid.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

And did I mention that the CEO's bonus is tied to this product?

No it isnt.

Typically, it is.

Nope.

Particularly when the target price is 'impossible'.

Fantasy.

In the end, a company will produce the cheapest junk that it can sell...

Have fun explaining ipods and countless other products.

Are you suggesting that Apple did not try
to minimize the production cost of the iPod?

Nope, that its clearly nothing like the cheapest junk that they can sell.

Perhaps you could explain why they are made in China?

Irrelevant to whether its actually the cheapest junk that they can sell.

The real world is nothing like as black and white as you claim.

and it will work very hard to insure that the consumer
needs to buy another new one from them...

Having it not last long is a hopeless way of doing that.

Actually, you're both wrong.

Nope. He is.

The objective is to sell a product NOW.

Its much more complicated than that too.

Given the rate of change, particularly with technology
products, repeat sales are no longer an objective.

Bullshit, most obviously with Apple.

Build them as cheaply as possible TODAY.

Have fun explaining the ipods and countless
other products that are nothing like that.

This year's bottom line is what the CEO's bonus is based on.

Nothing like the original claim about the CEO's bonus.

And it aint necessarily true of quite a few CEOs either.

and have to get any and all support from them.

Plenty avoid products like that.

That's pure BS.

Nope. Even you should be able to find countless
examples of individuals doing that using groups.google.

Consumers are motivated, first and foremost, by purchase price.

Not all of them are. If they were, you wouldnt see so many ipods sold.

Or those stupid expensive brand name shoes in spades.

Or SUVs either.

That's the reason so many products have a 'Made in China' label.

Nope, the real reason is because it costs less to manufacture there.

Apple and a few other American companies have
successfully marketed a perception of quality
(actually, hipness), but still import the products.

Irrelevant to that silly claim that consumers buy on price.

If they did, they wouldnt be buying ipods.

It is all about separating the consumer from as
much of their money as painlessly as possible.

Its never that black and white either.

Just a guess - you don't work for Corporate America.

Others that clearly do have also said it aint that black and white.

And that is called a conspiracy.

Wrong again, its you silly little 'planned obsolescence'
thats a conspiracy, if it was actually possible.

Actually, it has nothing to do with a conspiracy.
It's simply using a business model that works.

It isnt even possible to use planned obsolescence as a business model,
essentially because it isnt possible to design a product to fail just after
the warranty has expired, even if some operation was actually that stupid.

 

[Rod Speed]

lsmartino <luismartino76@gmail.com> wrote

Rod Speed wrote

That´s why the manufacturer puts the charging circuit *inside*
the cellphone or the laptop, to avoid charging problems.

Yes, and why you dont see rechargeable lithium AA and AAA batterys,
because some fool will inevitably put them in an inappropriate charger
and they can go bang very spectacularly indeed.

Not necessarily. They can move the charging circuit to the cell in itself.

Not practical with AA and AAA batterys being discussed.

In spades with an ipod battery.

Of course that will steal space from the chemical part of
the cell with the resultant capacity loss, but it can be done.

But isnt practical and it cant be done with an ipod battery anyway.

Thus the charger used to recharge the battery becames
inmaterial because any proper voltage source will suffice.

The problem aint the voltage source.

In fact, since lithium cells produce 3V, and a AA battery
shouldn´t produce more than 1.5V, I suspect that these
lithium cells have some form of voltage regulating circuit inside.

No they dont. They are in fact nothing like RECHARGABLE lithium technology.

If that is true, then it´s possible that in several
years that circuit will be designed to allow a
safe recharging of a lithium AA or AAA battery.

Its obvious technically possible right now given that cellphones
and ipods etc can obviously charge them fine now, and with
cellphones particularly can handle all of NiMH, NiCad and Lion etc.

The problem is that if they are in AA or AAA format, there
is nothing to stop an individual putting them in an inappropriate
charger and ending up with a massive legal liablity problem.

Also, the IPOD battery is a lithium rechargeable one, so a
lithium battery charging circuit can be made as small as needed.

Yes, but we were discussing why the battery
cant be a STANDARD AA OR AAA FORMAT.

Put simply: if the manufacturer *wants* to design a product with batteries
that can be replaced or recharged the manufacturer *can* do it.

Not with a standard battery format they cant, because that
would inevitably see some put them on inappropriate chargers
that would produce spectacular results when they did that.

The technollogy exists, and in fact it´s in use actually.

No it isnt with STANDARD BATTERY FORMATS.

Take this cordless phone, for instance,

http://gigaset.siemens.com/shc/0,1935,hq_en_0_116691_rArNrNrNrN_variation%253A-5_pageType%253ATechnical%2Bdata_imagePos%253A0,00.html#content

It´s designed to work with standard AAA rechargeable batteries.

So is mine. Pity it doesnt accept Lithium rechargable AAA batterys.

Also I own a Siemens C4000 cordless phone and it works with
standard AA rechargeable batteries. It can take NiCd or NiMh batteries.

So does my Panasonic, and I bought it for that reason.

It will not however accept lithium rechargable batterys.

Both of my current cellphones, Nokias, will accept all of NiMH,
NiCad and Lion batterys, but they arent AA or AAA format
because there is too much risk with that approach of someone
trying to charge the Lion batterys with a separate charger that
doesnt know how to charge Lion batterys.

So, *if* the manufacturer wants to develop a product
using standard rechageable batteries, *it can do it*.

Nope, because there is no way to stop someone putting
it in a charger that knows nothing about Lion charging.

Even there are different chemistries available,
so if an applicattion works best with a NiMh
battery, or a NiCad one, that battery can be used.

Pity about the problem with putting a lithium battery in a charger
thats designed to charge NiMh and NiCad standard format betterys.