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Doesnt happen like that with the chinese products.It is NOT a conspiracy - it is the result of accountants over-ruling
engineers. The demand is to lower costs, at any cost. The engineers
then have to decide where to cut costs.
The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.
Good designs are allowed to turn to bad designs to cut a fraction of a
penny.
The sooner the product dies after warranty, the sooner the customer
will be buying another NEW item.
As has been pointed out, the repair inventory is considered a "profit
center" which is code for gouge the customer if he wants to repair the
item.
And yes it IS a conspiracy....to get more of the public's money.
clare wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:02:25 +1100, "Rod Speed"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
Ecnerwal <LawrenceSMITH@SOuthernVERmont.NyET> wrote
Rick Brandt <rickbrandt2@hotmail.com> wrote
This raises an apparent contradiction.
Perhaps you've not been adequately involved with your appliances
to see that there is not a contradiction, even "apparently".
Or perhaps you havent.
The old ones were, for the most part, designed to be repairable.
Yes. And so are the current ones too with the exception of plug
packs etc.
"This part always breaks eventually, we'll
isolate it and make it easy to replace".
That is just plain silly with domestic appliances. There is bugger
all except light bulbs that cant be designed to last indefinitely.
And even that has changed just recently too.
The new ones are, for the most part, designed NOT to be repairable,
Oh bullshit.
and/or parts prices/availability are manipulated
to render them effectively non-economic to repair.
More bullshit. I've done just that fine with a modern electric
chainsaw.
"This part will (by design) break about 1 year after the warranty
runs out -
Not even possible.
It is NOT a conspiracy - it is the result of accountants over-ruling
engineers. The demand is to lower costs, at any cost. The engineers
then have to decide where to cut costs. Sometimes they win, sometimes
you loose.
Cost to assemble dictates design more than sevicability. If they can
save a dollar in total per machine by making assembly easier (or by
cutting out a procedure, like de-burring drilled or stamped holes)
without increasing their warranty exposure, they do it.
This could all change OVERNIGHT if all the cheap B@$7@rds in North
America wouldn't insist on buying the cheapest whatever possible. If
there was a market for quality products at a price that companys
could afford to build them and sell them for, quality goods would
still be available. That market just does not exist any more. If it
did, Wallmarts would be closing all over North America, instead of
continuing to displace the established specialty shops that used to
sell the "good stuff".
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
No but ask any engineer....Dilbert is fact, not fiction.You must be the guy who draws the "Dilbert" comic strip.
On 14 Jan 2007 11:40:18 -0800, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
In my opinon, it is a symptom of a larger problem....
Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to buy new
versus repair the used applicance, car, electronics, computers, cell
phones....because they make a larger profit.
The MBAs that are crafting the company policy are behind this.
You must be the guy who draws the "Dilbert" comic strip.
Nope.William Noble wrote
nonrepairable is not the same as planned obsolescense.
A new product may be impossible to repair because it
uses custom electronics and special assembly techniques
but that doesn't mean it's planned to quit working in 3 years.
Yes it is - your wrong.
The reality is that that isnt done with domestic appliances.Theres actually an engineering discipline devoted to this
subject - its called "Stress Engineering" ie how many
cycles can the door open and close before ir breaks
That aint designing it to fail just outside the warranty.- or, how many hours will the just adequate component get
stinking hot before it desolders itself from the circuit board.....
They werent deliberately designed in. Just lousy design.all things that most technicians are intimately familiar
with - (their called "bread and butter" faults..).
we used to make a living from them....
Because it makes not sense to spend a high percentage of the cost ofthe technically difficult repairs that took EONS you did
for self satisfaction and lost money on - that was ok
when there was enough of the other stuff to make a living.
The whole societal mindset has changed - most of my customers now
are "mature aged" and have the life long expectation that when thing
breaks, it gets fixed. The younger ones - don't even bother, they
EXPECT it to break soon after the warranty ends (thats BONUS time!)
and will not even think about getting it repaired....
And most of that stuff just doesnt fail, most obviouslyModern manufacturing methods - them too - snap together plastic
assemblies designed for easy assembly with no thought for subsequent
servicing (hey, nuts and bolts cost MONEY) - done by unskilled, low
wage workers to whom a screwdriver is probably a complex machine tool.
Nope, due to the technology.Modern circuit boards - SMD components, machine assembled,
wave soldered - give VERY high reliability due lack of "operator error"
And they hardly ever need to be repaired too.but again, virtually impossible to repair without specialist equipment -
fine if your in aerospace, or medical, or industrial where you have
the margins, but not domestic stuff. (and thats assuming the
complex in house LSI IC is even available - it usually isnt...)
And those arent designed to fail just outside the warranty.And the manufacturers too - theres no money in servicing, 10,000 TV
sets can be ordered, delivered to the customers distribution centre
straight off the boat all from one person sitting in front of a PC -
no warehouses, spare parts stock, skilled staff to manage the
spare parts, service data to manage, field service staff to
control, cost of running a service centre....
The reality is that costs a lot less to stamp out another in theSame for service data - costs too much. Its easier to replace
something under warranty irrespective of the fault, crush it, and
claim it as a tax loss than maintain a service centre with skilled techs,,,,
And they are dirt cheap now.Sooo - this leaves people like us - slightly demented, do it
yourselfers, who machine bits out of aluminum to replace a broken
plastic bracket (thats why I got into this bizarre metalworking world)
- people who will spend DAYS chasing a generic replacement, who,
when they see something of a similar model in the dumpster, will
rescue it to take home for spares.....
Do I complain - yeh, fer sure. Would I do anything else - no way,
I enjoy the challenge. Learning new skills, being rat cunning and
devious, figuring out how to beat the obsolescence game....its fun
(mostly) Pity it barely pays the bills - fortunately the house is paid
for, the kids are off our hands (mostly) and I dont lust after a turbo
Porsche...(now, more tools - thats different...)
Corse they wont.And when my generation goes - thats it, cant
see anyone choosing to do this to make a living.
And so do almost everything else too.Sitting at a service station console taking money for gasoline pays better.
Even that is arguable, an operation like that should have decent redundancy.The only industries where you CAN make good money servicing are:-
1.Where the machine itself costs LOTS of money,
so the repair is a small part of the cost
2.Where people are standing idle because the machine is down
3 There is some sort of "voodoo mystique" about it (medical is a good example)
Ah, that feels SO much better ..........
Andrew VK3BFA.
Only partly true. Do you want to keep your computer forever? Do you thinkIn my opinon, it is a symptom of a larger problem....
Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to buy new
versus repair the used applicance, car, electronics, computers, cell
phones....because they make a larger profit.
Rod Speed wrote:
Too_Many_Tools <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote:
In my opinon...no.
I dont believe it happens in the sense that its actually possible
to design something to fail early and still have a viable product.
And there is plenty of stuff that clearly aint anything to do
with planned obsolescence at all. Most obviously with stuff
as basic as bread knives which are all metal. Those wont
even need to be replaced when the handle gives out.
And heaps of kitchen stuff is now stainless steel, which
will last forever compared with the older tinplate crap.
I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.
Your thoughts?
Works fine with some things, but can bite. I just replaced
the switch in the vaccuum cleaner which is about 40 years
old. Cost peanuts and was very easy to find a new one.
The big 9ź" hand held circular saw that I built the house with
35 years ago has just seen the power switch fail and that is
no longer available from the manufacturer. Fortunately its
failed on so the saw is still usable tho more dangerous.
It uses blades with a 1?" hole. The current blades have
1" holes with washers which allow smaller shafts but no
easy way to use them on my old saw. There doesnt appear
to be any readily available source of different collets for that.
Just had the chain adjuster failed on a dirt cheap relatively
new electric chainsaw. I assumed that they wouldnt bother
to supply parts like that, but I was wrong, readily available
and in fact free. Clearly no planned obsolescence there.
And power tools are now so cheap that they are very viable
to buy even for just one job. I had to cut a copper pipe thats
buried in the ground and it costs peanuts to buy a very decent
jigsaw to cut it, just to avoid having to dig a bigger hole around
where I needed to cut it. Its been fine for other stuff since,
no evidence that its going to die any time soon. Could well get
40 years out of that too like I did with most of the power tools
that I used to build the house.
Cars in spades. I've just replaced my 35 year old car that I was
too stupid to fix the windscreen leak with which eventually produced
rust holes in the floor which wont pass our registration check.
While its possible to plate the holes, I cant be bothered, I intended
to drive that car into the ground and decided that that had happened.
No evidence that the replacement new car wont last as long. Its
certainly got more plastic, most obviously with the bumper bars that
the new one doesnt have, but that mostly due to modern crumple
zones, not due to planned obsolescence and might save my life etc.
People were raving on about planned obsolescence when
I built the house and I've had very little that has ever needed
replacement apart from basic stuff like light bulbs and the
occassional failure of stuff like elements in the oven etc.
More below.
Irreparable damage
By Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007
Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the
Procter Appliance Service shop in Silver Spring.
That isnt planned obsolescence, thats the fact that its a
lot cheaper to pay a very low wage asian to make you
a new one than it ever is to pay a first world monkey to
repair your existing one with all but quite trivial faults.
"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you
could years ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven,
refrigerator and washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything
has changed in the appliance business."
It has indeed, but not because of planned obsolescence.
Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the
process of moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.
Sob sob.
Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old appliances.
Because its generally better value to replace.
"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of www.fixitnow.com
and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."
Wota fucking wanker. Bet he doesnt disembowel himself when he fucks up.
The reason for this is twofold, Mr. Brown said: The cost
of appliances is coming down because of cheap overseas
labor and improved manufacturing techniques,
So much for your silly line about planned obsolescence.
and repairmen are literally dying off.
They arent in other industrys that are still viable,
most obviously with cars and trucks and houses.
The average age of appliance technicians is 42, and there are few
young repairmen to take their place, said Mr. Brown, 47. He has
been repairing appliances in New Hampshire for the past 13 years.
He should have had a clue 13 years ago.
The writing was on the wall long before that.
In the next seven years, the number of veteran appliance
repairmen will decrease nationwide as current workers retire
or transfer to other occupations, the Department of Labor
said in its 2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.
Must be rocket scientist shinybums.
The federal agency said many prospective repairmen prefer work
that is less strenuous and want more comfortable working conditions.
They actually prefer a decent income.
That claimed 'prefer work that is less strenuous and want more
comfortable working conditions' clearly hasnt affect car, truck or
house repair and the construction industry etc. Tho there will
always be some of that with a 5% unemployment rate.
Local repairmen said it is simply a question of economics.
"Nowadays appliances are cheap, so people are just getting new ones,"
Yep, only a fool wouldnt if the new one costs about
the same as the cost of repairing the old one.
said Paul Singh, a manager at the Appliance Service Depot, a repair
shop in Northwest. "As a result, business has slowed down a lot."
"The average repair cost for a household appliance is $50 to $350,"
said Shahid Rana, a service technician at Rana Refrigeration, a repair
shop in Capitol Heights. "If the repair is going to cost more than
that, we usually tell the customer to go out and buy a new one."
Must be rocket scientist apes.
It's not uncommon for today's repairmen to condemn an appliance
instead of fixing it for the sake of their customers' wallets.
If they decide to repair an appliance that is likely to break
down again, repairmen are criticized by their customers
and often lose business because of a damaged reputation.
Mr. Jones said he based his repair decisions on the 50 percent
rule: "If the cost of service costs more than 50 percent of the price
of a new machine, I'll tell my customers to get a new one."
What makes a lot more sense is to factor in the failure rate of that appliance.
"A lot of customers want me to be honest with them, so I'll tell them
my opinion and leave the decision making up to them," he said.
In recent years, consumers have tended to buy new
appliances when existing warranties expire rather than
repair old appliances, the Department of Labor said.
Hardly surprising given that they are now so cheap.
Mr. Brown acknowledged this trend. "Lower-end appliances which you
can buy for $200 to $300 are basically throwaway appliances," he said.
"They are so inexpensive that you shouldn't pay to get them repaired."
"The quality of the materials that are being made aren't lasting,"
Pig ignorant silly stuff.
Mr. Jones said. "Nowadays you're seeing more plastic
I had some reservations about my 35 year old
dishwasher that does have a plastic liner. Its lasted fine.
and more circuit boards, and they aren't holding up."
Bullshit.
Many home appliances sold in the United States
are made in Taiwan, Singapore, China and Mexico.
And now china.
"Nothing is made [in the United States] anymore," Mr. Jones said.
"But then again, American parts are only better to a point,
a lot of U.S. companies are all about the dollar."
Fortunately for the next generation of repairmen, some of today's
high-end appliances make service repairs the most cost-effective option.
The Department of Labor concurred. "Over the next decade, as more
consumers purchase higher-priced appliances designed to have much
longer lives, they will be more likely to use repair services than to
purchase new appliances," said the 2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.
Bet that will have fuck all effect on the employment prospects.
Modern, energy-efficient refrigerators
can cost as much as $5,000 to $10,000,
Pig ignorant drivel. You can buy plenty of modern energy efficient
fridges for a hell of a lot less than that. I've done just that a month ago.
and with such a hefty price tag, throwing one away is not an option.
Bet the fools stupid enough to buy those will anyway.
In some cases, repairmen can help consumers reduce the
amount of aggravation that a broken appliance will cause.
Consider the time and effort it takes to shop for a new appliance, wait
for its delivery, remove the old one and get the new one installed.
I did mine in 30 mins total, literally.
In addition, certain appliances such as ovens and
washing machines can be a bigger hassle to replace
because they are connected to gas and water lines.
Just changed washing machines over too, with a free
one I inherited. Changing the water over took minutes too.
"It takes your time, it takes your effort, and if you don't
install the new appliance, you'll have to hire a service
technician to install it anyways," Mr. Brown said.
Only the incompetant fools that cant change the washing machine over.
Some consumers bond with their appliances like old pets,
and for loyalty or sentimental reasons, refuse to let them go.
Mr. Rana said some of his clients have appliances that are
more than 30 years old. It makes sense, he said. "A lot of old
refrigerators are worth fixing because they give people good service.
Wrong, those are normally lousy energy efficiency.
They just don't make things like they used to."
Yeah, they make them much better today energy efficiency wise.
And much better design wise too with the shelves and bins etc too.
did you know theres all qualitys of stainless, some will last literaLLY
FOREVER not so for kitchen stainless, try a magnet on stainless the
better quality is non magnetic
From their competitor? What manufacturer wants to take that chance?It is NOT a conspiracy - it is the result of accountants over-ruling
engineers. The demand is to lower costs, at any cost. The engineers
then have to decide where to cut costs.
The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.
Good designs are allowed to turn to bad designs to cut a fraction of a
penny.
The sooner the product dies after warranty, the sooner the customer
will be buying another NEW item.
If you have to stock, for thirty years, a part that exists only on aAs has been pointed out, the repair inventory is considered a "profit
center" which is code for gouge the customer if he wants to repair the
item.
I'm calling you out on that one. Perhaps if all the brands andAnd yes it IS a conspiracy....to get more of the public's money.
Ecnerwal wrote:
In article <B%tqh.1176$O02.696@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
"Rick Brandt" <rickbrandt2@hotmail.com> wrote:
This raises an apparent contradiction.
Perhaps you've not been adequately involved with your appliances to
see that there is not a contradiction, even "apparently".
The old ones were, for the most part, designed to be repairable. "This
part always breaks eventually, we'll isolate it and make it easy to
replace".
The new ones are, for the most part, designed NOT to be repairable,
and/or parts prices/availability are manipulated to render them
effectively non-economic to repair. [snip]
What you say speaks to the issue of why did we repair in the past and why don't
we repair now, but it says nothing about the comparable reliability. If
appliances in the past were "built to be repaired" that can be interpretted to
mean that failures were expected. If failures were expected and people could
make a living performing those repairs then that suggests that the appliances
were not that reliable.
and junk. Cars routinely go 150/200K miles if there properly maintainedOn 14 Jan 2007 18:19:35 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Michael Black) wrote:
snip
And I want to add something about "planned obsolescence" because it
is often misused. If people are choosing to buy cheap, it's hardly
that the manufacturers are making things so they will break. The
consumer often wants that cheaper tv set or VCR.
And there is the issue of just plain obsolescence. Forty years
ago, there'd hardly be any electronic items around the house. A
tv set or two, some radios, maybe a stereo. But look around now,
and everything is electronic. It's either been invented in the past forty
years (not even that long in many cases), or at the very least could not
have been a consumer item until recently. Once you have consumers buying
the latest thing, things are bound to go obsolete. Buy early, and things
still have to develop, which means the things really may become obsolete
in a few years. It's not the manufacturer doing this to "screw the
consumer", it's a combination of new developments and consumer demand.
If my computer from 1979 had been intended to last forever, it would
have been way out of range in terms of price. Because they'd have to
anticipate how much things would change, and build in enough so upgrading
would be doable. So you'd spend money on potential, rather than spending
money later on a new computer that would beat out what they could
imagine in 1979. And in recent years, it is the consumer who is deciding
to buy a new computer every few years (whether a deliberate decision or
they simply let the manufacturer lead, must vary from person to person.)
Michael
Planned obsolescence has been a tenet of the automobile
industry since the '30s. General Motors, in particular
used styling to make a 2 or 3 year-old-car look "old" and in
need of replacement with a newly styled model.
A bigger engine, prettier colors, new styles, all those
things are at the heart of 'planned obsolescence.'
Well, when i was growing up having a car at 100K miles meant it was shot
It wont change even then, the manufactureOn Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:19:24 GMT, "Rick Brandt"
rickbrandt2@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ecnerwal wrote:
In article <B%tqh.1176$O02.696@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
"Rick Brandt" <rickbrandt2@hotmail.com> wrote:
This raises an apparent contradiction.
Perhaps you've not been adequately involved with your appliances to
see that there is not a contradiction, even "apparently".
The old ones were, for the most part, designed to be repairable.
"This part always breaks eventually, we'll isolate it and make it
easy to replace".
The new ones are, for the most part, designed NOT to be repairable,
and/or parts prices/availability are manipulated to render them
effectively non-economic to repair. [snip]
What you say speaks to the issue of why did we repair in the past
and why don't we repair now, but it says nothing about the
comparable reliability. If appliances in the past were "built to be
repaired" that can be interpretted to mean that failures were
expected. If failures were expected and people could make a living
performing those repairs then that suggests that the appliances were
not that reliable.
The main reason we don't repair modern electronic appliances is that
the cost of parts and labour to carry out the repairs is often nearly
as much (or more) than the appliance cost new. Why would anyone pay
for a repair on an item, which may be as good as new when repaired,
when a brand new item may only cost a little more. The new item also
comes with a new warranty.
This will only change when the standard of living in countries
producing the majority of appliances goes up considerably
thus making the cost of producing items more expensive.
Not necessarily. You can replace components, likeHowever, along with that, in order to make them economical
to repair, they must also be designed for accessibility to
components such that they can physically be repaired.
Not much tho, again most obviously with cellphones.Designing in repairability also adds a bit to the cost of production.
Its a tiny part of world energy consumption.Personally, I am all in favour of repairability if for no other
reason than it saves energy and resources across the board.
The trouble is that there is no easy to way get a real handle on what"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1168830410.480473.125040@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
It is NOT a conspiracy - it is the result of accountants
over-ruling engineers. The demand is to lower costs, at any cost.
The engineers then have to decide where to cut costs.
The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.
Good designs are allowed to turn to bad designs to cut a fraction of
a penny.
The sooner the product dies after warranty, the sooner the customer
will be buying another NEW item.
From their competitor? What manufacturer wants to take that
chance?
As has been pointed out, the repair inventory is considered a "profit
center" which is code for gouge the customer if he wants to repair
the item.
If you have to stock, for thirty years, a part that exists only on
a small handful of machines out there, how much would that part
_really_ cost after overhead for that _entire_ period gets figured
in? And since machines change design every few years, there are
simply thousands and thousands of parts all in the same situation. It's for that reason I quit
bitching about the prices of replacement
parts at car dealers. I may pay more, but I'm assured that it will
be there more so than any other source. That assurance costs money.
And yes it IS a conspiracy....to get more of the public's money.
I'm calling you out on that one. Perhaps if all the brands and
manufacturers of appliances were consolidated so much that they _had_
to be in cahoots, I'd be more inclined to believe you, but your
appliances are built all over the world now, by a variety of
companies competing hard for your business, not just once, but again
and again, and that means that one company with a good product will
never say a word to a competitor about how they do a better job. I
certainly wouldn't, and the way to make money in appliances is to
build a better product that gives the customer the value for the
dollar they are willing to pay. Folks that want a top of the line
appliance will pay extra for the appearance of better quality, and if
it can be proved they're getting their money's worth, they'll spend
even more. What it costs me when a product fails, wastes my time, and
the hassle and frustration of resolving the situation, means far more
to me than the initial cost of a product. I've paid that price too
many times, as I'm sure we all have at one time or another, so back
to the point of the most bang for my buck is why companies competing
for my precious dollar will not conspire with each other. All it
takes is for one of them to refuse to conspire and the conspirators
lose, leaving that one to earn my money.
And they dont need much maintenance either,Alan Moorman@visi.com wrote:
On 14 Jan 2007 18:19:35 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Michael Black) wrote:
snip
And I want to add something about "planned obsolescence" because it
is often misused. If people are choosing to buy cheap, it's hardly
that the manufacturers are making things so they will break. The
consumer often wants that cheaper tv set or VCR.
And there is the issue of just plain obsolescence. Forty years
ago, there'd hardly be any electronic items around the house. A
tv set or two, some radios, maybe a stereo. But look around now,
and everything is electronic. It's either been invented in the
past forty years (not even that long in many cases), or at the very
least could not have been a consumer item until recently. Once you
have consumers buying the latest thing, things are bound to go
obsolete. Buy early, and things still have to develop, which means
the things really may become obsolete in a few years. It's not the
manufacturer doing this to "screw the consumer", it's a combination
of new developments and consumer demand. If my computer from 1979 had been intended to last
forever, it would
have been way out of range in terms of price. Because they'd have
to anticipate how much things would change, and build in enough so
upgrading would be doable. So you'd spend money on potential,
rather than spending money later on a new computer that would beat
out what they could imagine in 1979. And in recent years, it is the consumer who is
deciding to buy a new computer every few years (whether a
deliberate decision or they simply let the manufacturer lead, must
vary from person to person.)
Planned obsolescence has been a tenet of the automobile
industry since the '30s. General Motors, in particular
used styling to make a 2 or 3 year-old-car look "old" and in need of replacement with a newly
styled model.
A bigger engine, prettier colors, new styles, all those
things are at the heart of 'planned obsolescence.'
Well, when i was growing up having a car at 100K miles meant it was
shot and junk. Cars routinely go 150/200K miles if there properly maintained
Not really.and not some boner motor or tranny combo (always exceptions to the rule).
Electronics, while in some respects is miles ahead do to large scale integration has its own
issues.
That doesnt happen much anymore and it isnt mostlyHeat build up has caused many devices to fail from bad solder joints or component failure.
Doesnt need to, the CRT is the guts of the system everything is attached to.Electronic CRT chassis are so flimsy that if you take the chassis out the plastic wont support the
CRT.
Not much bad with electronics.So progress is both good and bad.
And even DVD burners are now so cheap that its just a yawn.CD players have lasers that get dirty and get tossed long before the actual laser diode is gone.
We've gone from an 80K floppy drive that cost $800 to a DVD burner that canCD players have lasers that get dirty and get tossed long before the
actual laser diode is gone.
And even DVD burners are now so cheap that its just a yawn.
I'm pleased to agree with that comment since it's on topicThe main thing I detest with modern products is keyboards. I used
to be able to buy proper double injection moulded keyboards in the
pre PC days but they arent even buyable now even with the branded
produces like Microsoft and Logitech and the stupid cheap stuck on
lettering never lasts very long at all.
I favor trackballs and I lament how the award-winning ergonomic onesBut I wouldnt go back to corded mice and keyboards again.
In spades with non optical mice either.
Leonard Caillouet wrote:
dantecl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163325374.398729.196190@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello people,
I have a Sony KP-46S15 tv with some strange problem. The picture is
good, but it's black/white, doesn't matter if it's cable or video
input. But, the weird thing is that the OSD is colored, all the menu
items are normally colored.
This color problem was flickering some time ago, and now it's
permanently B/W...
Any tips?
Dante
Basic troubleshooting would be the tip. If you need tips at this point, you
need a tch to evaluate the set.
Leonard
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SYMPTOMS
Unit had no color.
Intermittently unit had streaks of red and blue across black and white
picture.
RESOLUTION
Had good chroma siganal to the Y/C jungle.
Found no 3.58 at pin 7 of jungle chip.
Replaced X302 restored normal operation.
Of course it is - if your making a million of anything, you minimiseAndrew VK3BFA <ablight@alphalink.com.au> wrote
William Noble wrote
nonrepairable is not the same as planned obsolescense.
A new product may be impossible to repair because it
uses custom electronics and special assembly techniques
but that doesn't mean it's planned to quit working in 3 years.
Yes it is - your wrong.
Nope.
Theres actually an engineering discipline devoted to this
subject - its called "Stress Engineering" ie how many
cycles can the door open and close before ir breaks
The reality is that that isnt done with domestic appliances.
Oh? - how come PCB pads are barely adequate for the heat dissipation of- or, how many hours will the just adequate component get
stinking hot before it desolders itself from the circuit board.....
That aint designing it to fail just outside the warranty.
I beg to differ. You are saying EVERY manufacturer on the planet hasall things that most technicians are intimately familiar
with - (their called "bread and butter" faults..).
we used to make a living from them....
They werent deliberately designed in. Just lousy design.
Yep. Thats why they are no repaired. I though this was why this threadthe technically difficult repairs that took EONS you did
for self satisfaction and lost money on - that was ok
when there was enough of the other stuff to make a living.
The whole societal mindset has changed - most of my customers now
are "mature aged" and have the life long expectation that when thing
breaks, it gets fixed. The younger ones - don't even bother, they
EXPECT it to break soon after the warranty ends (thats BONUS time!)
and will not even think about getting it repaired....
Because it makes not sense to spend a high percentage of the cost of
a new VCR repairing an existing one. The new one gets a new warranty.
Idiot. The technology was partly developed to eliminate manualModern manufacturing methods - them too - snap together plastic
assemblies designed for easy assembly with no thought for subsequent
servicing (hey, nuts and bolts cost MONEY) - done by unskilled, low
wage workers to whom a screwdriver is probably a complex machine tool.
And most of that stuff just doesnt fail, most obviously
with plug packs and molded power cords.
Modern circuit boards - SMD components, machine assembled,
wave soldered - give VERY high reliability due lack of "operator error"
Nope, due to the technology.
Erk. Then whats the problem? - why are we having this discussion? - ifbut again, virtually impossible to repair without specialist equipment -
fine if your in aerospace, or medical, or industrial where you have
the margins, but not domestic stuff. (and thats assuming the
complex in house LSI IC is even available - it usually isnt...)
And they hardly ever need to be repaired too.
But they do. 3 to 5 years from a modern domestic ANYTHING is good valueAnd the manufacturers too - theres no money in servicing, 10,000 TV
sets can be ordered, delivered to the customers distribution centre
straight off the boat all from one person sitting in front of a PC -
no warehouses, spare parts stock, skilled staff to manage the
spare parts, service data to manage, field service staff to
control, cost of running a service centre....
And those arent designed to fail just outside the warranty.
Erk (again) yes, well, thats why things dont get repaired - so cheap toSame for service data - costs too much. Its easier to replace
something under warranty irrespective of the fault, crush it, and
claim it as a tax loss than maintain a service centre with skilled techs,,,,
The reality is that costs a lot less to stamp out another in the
asian factory than it can ever cost to have a first world tech fix it.
That I will concede. And is not the quality the same as all the otherSooo - this leaves people like us - slightly demented, do it
yourselfers, who machine bits out of aluminum to replace a broken
plastic bracket (thats why I got into this bizarre metalworking world)
- people who will spend DAYS chasing a generic replacement, who,
when they see something of a similar model in the dumpster, will
rescue it to take home for spares.....
Do I complain - yeh, fer sure. Would I do anything else - no way,
I enjoy the challenge. Learning new skills, being rat cunning and
devious, figuring out how to beat the obsolescence game....its fun
(mostly) Pity it barely pays the bills - fortunately the house is paid
for, the kids are off our hands (mostly) and I dont lust after a turbo
Porsche...(now, more tools - thats different...)
And they are dirt cheap now.
Good, you got one right.And when my generation goes - thats it, cant
see anyone choosing to do this to make a living.
Corse they wont.
Rubbish. Any machine thats down is losing money (ask the accountants -Sitting at a service station console taking money for gasoline pays better.
And so do almost everything else too.
The only industries where you CAN make good money servicing are:-
1.Where the machine itself costs LOTS of money,
so the repair is a small part of the cost
2.Where people are standing idle because the machine is down
Even that is arguable, an operation like that should have decent redundancy.
3 There is some sort of "voodoo mystique" about it (medical is a good example)
Ah, that feels SO much better ..........
Andrew VK3BFA.
That's opening up a can of worms:Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to buy new
versus repair the used applicance ...
Only partly true. Do you want to keep your computer forever? Do you think
you'd be on line here if you still had that 286 processor?
I believe it is you who needs to work in the real world and ignore theThe engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.
You've never worked for a company that manufactures stuff have you?
Marketing (NOT accounting) might provide a price-point that their research
indicates a product needs to be at to be competitive and the
design/engineering/manufacuring departments might be given a mandate to meet
that price point by top level management, but there are no "accountants" telling
anyone where to cut costs.
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It is NOT a conspiracy - it is the result of accountants
over-ruling engineers. The demand is to lower costs, at any cost.
The engineers then have to decide where to cut costs.
The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.
You've never worked for a company that manufactures stuff have you?
Marketing (NOT accounting) might provide a price-point that their research
indicates a product needs to be at to be competitive and the
design/engineering/manufacuring departments might be given a mandate to meet
that price point by top level management, but there are no "accountants" telling
anyone where to cut costs.
YET despite that, there is still some favorable economics forThe main reason we don't repair modern electronic appliances is that
the cost of parts and labour to carry out the repairs is often nearly
as much (or more) than the appliance cost new. Why would anyone pay
for a repair on an item, which may be as good as new when repaired,
when a brand new item may only cost a little more. The new item also
comes with a new warranty.
I agree! If only the garbage collectors were to "close the loop"I have a simple suggestion. Watch your neighbors' trash. When you see
them throw various equipment away, take it home and take it apart. See
if you see signs of intentionally poor design, trying to save pennies
at the huge expense of the customer, etc. See how many interchangeable
parts you see, how well made is the mechanism etc. If anything, doing
so is fun and educational.