They sounded alarms about a coming Colorado River crisis. But warnings went unheeded...

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
*Sells* was the place my cousin visited.

The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha\'s. I\'d stop there sometimes if

Is it *really* a Basha\'s? Or, are you just using that as an example?

I got tired of Tuscon before I picked up groceries. I\'m a sucker for maranitos
and they\'d generally have a few bags. There\'s a rodeo and that\'s about it for
Sells.

Yeah, sort of like Cañon City -- three prisons and a bridge! :>

Or, Cripple Creek -- ?

(actually, I think it is now a gambling \"hot spot\" -- as hot as one can be in
the middle of nowhere!)

You can sort of understand how many of these places got started. But, got
to wonder how they *persist*!

<frown>

The real rodeo is at the end of January but it\'s open range so cattle are often
wandering around the road looking for greenery along the road.

Besides that there isn\'t much on 86. I came back on the bike after dark on Dia
de los Muertos. Spookiest ride I ever took with the candles burning in all
those roadside shrines. I never did figure out how so many people killed
themselves on a basically straight road with nothing bigger than a saguaro to hit.

Yeah. Here it\'s all the white bicycles \"parked\" amid an assortment of
floral arrangements. I wonder if there is an ordinance that allows
them to exist? Or, prevents them from being disturbed? <shrug>

Or, the stenciled \"In Memory Of ...\" on the rear windows of vehicles.
Weird.

Talk about cultural differences...

Yeah, one comment my cousin made was how he felt like \"a minority\", there.

And, how different their culture is. Language, values, traditions, etc.

He didn\'t claim they were standoffish -- in fact, many invited him into
their homes for traditional meals, etc.

But, he was uncomfortable feeling that *he* was the \"different\" one!

Gallup is about half Navajo, so yeah. You get that in a lot of the small NM
towns, not Navajos but Spanish that have been there since the land grant days.

He taught on the rez. Also found it odd to get used to their attitudes
towards education. On the one hand, they (elders) wanted people like him,
there -- as it represented the only realistic way forward/out of poverty
for their people. On the other, the *individual* commitment to schooling
was pretty flimsy; he\'d talk of persistent truancy that would only
(briefly) end when the student (family?) was in danger of losing their
stipend (?) due to non-attendance.

It is different. I spent about a week snooping around Chaco Canyon and got to
know some of the rangers. One was a Navajo and he said his family gave him a
hard time when he took the job there. The Navajo were late arrivals and don\'t
know any more about the Anasazi than the whites but they thought that canyon
was really bad juju. Fascinating place if you like environmental disasters.
Phoenix, Casa Grande, Mesa Verde, and on and on thought they were in tall
cotton until they weren\'t.

Supposedly \'Navajo\' was Hopi for head-bashers. They\'re not friends. The Navajo
prefer \'Dine\', or roughly \'the (real) people\'. I think damn near every tribal
name on every continent translates the same. They didn\'t name themselves Big
Bellies, Pierced Noses, Flatheads, or whatever the tribe on the other side of
the hill called them.

O\'Odham = \"Desert People\". How do we know that? Some *native* told us?
How do we know his folks (grandfolks) didn\'t tell *him* \"Desert People\"
simply because they were embarassed to say \"People with smelly feet\"?

 

[rbowman]

On 08/02/2022 03:49 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
*Sells* was the place my cousin visited.

The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha\'s. I\'d stop there
sometimes if

Is it *really* a Basha\'s? Or, are you just using that as an example?

It says it\'s Basha\'s. It\'s smaller than one would be in Tucson and
doesn\'t have the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez buy.

Or, Cripple Creek -- ?

(actually, I think it is now a gambling \"hot spot\" -- as hot as one can
be in
the middle of nowhere!)

They built a casino of sorts at Why on the other side of the Why. Most
of the snowbirds at Why or Ajo are the low rent crowd. No $250,000 RVs
there. There\'s some traffic for Organ Pipe or going down to Puerto
Penasco but unless its coming from Tucson it bypasses the casino. They
tried for an RV campground but don\'t have the water.

Yeah. Here it\'s all the white bicycles \"parked\" amid an assortment of
floral arrangements. I wonder if there is an ordinance that allows
them to exist? Or, prevents them from being disturbed? <shrug

We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they\'ll get
decorated but not frequently. They\'re also unmarked.

He taught on the rez. Also found it odd to get used to their attitudes
towards education. On the one hand, they (elders) wanted people like him,
there -- as it represented the only realistic way forward/out of poverty
for their people. On the other, the *individual* commitment to schooling
was pretty flimsy; he\'d talk of persistent truancy that would only
(briefly) end when the student (family?) was in danger of losing their
stipend (?) due to non-attendance.

Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008 to
2016 when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat, Indian,
gay but politics in Montana are a little different. She fought tooth and
nail against NCLB knowing full when that small schools with a few Indian
kids were never going to meet the standards.

She tried for the us House but that was a bridge too far so she moved on
to Superintendent of Seattle Public Schools. She eventually got fired
for not being responsive to the needs of minority students, which was a
bit of irony.

O\'Odham = \"Desert People\". How do we know that? Some *native* told us?
How do we know his folks (grandfolks) didn\'t tell *him* \"Desert People\"
simply because they were embarassed to say \"People with smelly feet\"?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flathead_Nation,_Montana_-_bilingual_English-Salish_road_signs_3.jpg

There is a fad here for road signs that nobody can pronounce and may or
may not be what anybody ever called the place. They renamed Squaw Peak
to Ch-paa-qn to be politically correct. Originally they thought it meant
\'old woman\' but then decided it meant \'shining mountain\'. The current
theory is \'gray, treeless mountain with no game\'.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 9:54 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/02/2022 03:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
*Sells* was the place my cousin visited.

The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha\'s. I\'d stop there
sometimes if

Is it *really* a Basha\'s? Or, are you just using that as an example?

It says it\'s Basha\'s. It\'s smaller than one would be in Tucson and doesn\'t have
the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez buy.

That\'s surprising. IIRC, Basha\'s is still a family business. Interesting
to se they\'d extend themselves (geographically) that far -- and into such
a wonky market!

Yeah. Here it\'s all the white bicycles \"parked\" amid an assortment of
floral arrangements. I wonder if there is an ordinance that allows
them to exist? Or, prevents them from being disturbed? <shrug

We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they\'ll get decorated but
not frequently. They\'re also unmarked.

So, they have a database or other list of sites? Or, \"Hey, Bob... let\'s put
one over here!\"?

He taught on the rez. Also found it odd to get used to their attitudes
towards education. On the one hand, they (elders) wanted people like him,
there -- as it represented the only realistic way forward/out of poverty
for their people. On the other, the *individual* commitment to schooling
was pretty flimsy; he\'d talk of persistent truancy that would only
(briefly) end when the student (family?) was in danger of losing their
stipend (?) due to non-attendance.

Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008 to 2016
when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat, Indian, gay but
politics in Montana are a little different. She fought tooth and nail against
NCLB knowing full when that small schools with a few Indian kids were never
going to meet the standards.

So, rather than addressing the shortfall, let\'s lower the bar? <frown>

She tried for the us House but that was a bridge too far so she moved on to
Superintendent of Seattle Public Schools. She eventually got fired for not
being responsive to the needs of minority students, which was a bit of irony.

Too funny.

The common thread in all folks sucking off the gummit is \"look out for #1\".

O\'Odham = \"Desert People\". How do we know that? Some *native* told us?
How do we know his folks (grandfolks) didn\'t tell *him* \"Desert People\"
simply because they were embarassed to say \"People with smelly feet\"?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flathead_Nation,_Montana_-_bilingual_English-Salish_road_signs_3.jpg


There is a fad here for road signs that nobody can pronounce and may or may not
be what anybody ever called the place. They renamed Squaw Peak to Ch-paa-qn to
be politically correct. Originally they thought it meant \'old woman\' but then
decided it meant \'shining mountain\'. The current theory is \'gray, treeless
mountain with no game\'.

I always found the foreigners (which could mean anyone from outside New
England) trying to pronounce names like Worcester, Billerica, Berlin,
Cheesequake, Poughkeepsie, etc. to be amusing. \"You\'re not from around here,
are you?\"

Friends who did a stint in Guam & Hawaii claim some of the signs/location
names are very \"polynesian\" (?)

 

[rbowman]

On 08/02/2022 11:23 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 8/2/2022 9:54 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/02/2022 03:49 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/2/2022 12:00 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 08/01/2022 08:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
*Sells* was the place my cousin visited.

The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha\'s. I\'d stop there
sometimes if

Is it *really* a Basha\'s? Or, are you just using that as an example?

It says it\'s Basha\'s. It\'s smaller than one would be in Tucson and
doesn\'t have the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez
buy.

That\'s surprising. IIRC, Basha\'s is still a family business. Interesting
to se they\'d extend themselves (geographically) that far -- and into such
a wonky market!

Still there, apparently.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sells,+AZ+85634/@31.9146395,-111.8884597,526m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x86d500c56bf08e8b:0x3e107f88cb6e9c6a!8m2!3d31.9120215!4d-111.881234

tinyurl.com/3wsrasuz

One stop shopping; pick up your food stamps and head for Bashas.

We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they\'ll get
decorated but not frequently. They\'re also unmarked.

So, they have a database or other list of sites? Or, \"Hey, Bob... let\'s
put
one over here!\"?

I\'ve never been able to find it although it must exist. One appeared
about a half mile down the road and I don\'t remember any accident there.
There\'s another one about three miles away at an intersection. I saw
activity there one morning on the way to work with a Harley on its side
but I don\'t know if the rider was the cross or not. There\'s another one
a little further on that has some flowers so somebody must know who it was.

Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008
to 2016 when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat,
Indian, gay but politics in Montana are a little different. She fought
tooth and nail against NCLB knowing full when that small schools with
a few Indian kids were never going to meet the standards.

So, rather than addressing the shortfall, let\'s lower the bar? <frown

The schools do the best they can in places like Browning (Blackfeet) or
Lame Deer (Northern Cheyenne) but it\'s a losing battle.

https://www.publicschoolreview.com/lame-deer-school-profile

Towns on the Flathead Reservation like Polson do a little better but
they\'re about 75% white. The story behind that was another historical
screwing. The treaty established the rez, with the tribes relocated from
the Bitterroot valley. Each household was allocated a parcel of land
with water rights. Then the Great White Fathers said \'Look at all the
land left over! We\'ll sell it to white settlers\'.

The Confederated Salish & Kootenai have managed to claw back a little.
This year they got control of the Bison Range than had been run by the
US Fish & Wildlife for a hundred years or so. You also need a tribal
permit for camping, recreation, and fishing on the rez. The fishing
permit is sort of double jeopardy since you still need a MT fishing
license if you\'re white.

Anyway Juneau had taught on the rez and knew exactly how it was going to
play out more than some Bush bureaucrat. Most of the Indians have very
little interest in joining White Civ.

I always found the foreigners (which could mean anyone from outside New
England) trying to pronounce names like Worcester, Billerica, Berlin,
Cheesequake, Poughkeepsie, etc. to be amusing. \"You\'re not from around
here,
are you?\"

Yeah, Warchester was always a show stopper. Even Albany is a two
syllable word with no \'l\' in site. Troy is almost impossible to screw up
though.

A lot of the place names where I grew up were German/Dutch. To handle
Poestenkill it helps to understand umlauts and their modifications over
the years. The \'t\' is optional too. The oldest gravestones of my
grandmother\'s family have the umlaut, then oe, and finally just e. It\'s
luck of the draw I guess. Poestenkill went with the English \'o\' others
go with the English short e.

The NYS Berlin follows the NH pronunciation but I have a feeling that
might be a WWI thing. They tried renaming places with mixed success.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 4:24 PM, rbowman wrote:

The grocery store there is an abbreviated Basha\'s. I\'d stop there
sometimes if

Is it *really* a Basha\'s? Or, are you just using that as an example?

It says it\'s Basha\'s. It\'s smaller than one would be in Tucson and
doesn\'t have the variety but is tuned to what people living on the rez
buy.

That\'s surprising. IIRC, Basha\'s is still a family business. Interesting
to se they\'d extend themselves (geographically) that far -- and into such
a wonky market!

Still there, apparently.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sells,+AZ+85634/@31.9146395,-111.8884597,526m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x86d500c56bf08e8b:0x3e107f88cb6e9c6a!8m2!3d31.9120215!4d-111.881234

One stop shopping; pick up your food stamps and head for Bashas.

Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn\'t want to break down, there! No doubt
they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes>

[Basha\'s, here, tends to be a bit pricier than the other chains
and often dubious quality on produce]

We have a group that puts up white crosses. Sometimes they\'ll get
decorated but not frequently. They\'re also unmarked.

So, they have a database or other list of sites? Or, \"Hey, Bob... let\'s
put
one over here!\"?

I\'ve never been able to find it although it must exist. One appeared about a
half mile down the road and I don\'t remember any accident there. There\'s
another one about three miles away at an intersection. I saw activity there one
morning on the way to work with a Harley on its side but I don\'t know if the
rider was the cross or not. There\'s another one a little further on that has
some flowers so somebody must know who it was.

I can understand shortly after such an accident (e.g., one year anniversary).
But, if folks just keep \"decorating\" these sites, they\'ll be all over the
place! Even if you just address bicycle/pedestrian/motorcycle fatalities!

Denise Juneau was the Superintendent of Public Instruction from 2008
to 2016 when she term limited out. Checked all the boxes, Democrat,
Indian, gay but politics in Montana are a little different. She fought
tooth and nail against NCLB knowing full when that small schools with
a few Indian kids were never going to meet the standards.

So, rather than addressing the shortfall, let\'s lower the bar? <frown

The schools do the best they can in places like Browning (Blackfeet) or Lame
Deer (Northern Cheyenne) but it\'s a losing battle.

https://www.publicschoolreview.com/lame-deer-school-profile

Towns on the Flathead Reservation like Polson do a little better but they\'re
about 75% white. The story behind that was another historical screwing. The
treaty established the rez, with the tribes relocated from the Bitterroot
valley. Each household was allocated a parcel of land with water rights. Then
the Great White Fathers said \'Look at all the land left over! We\'ll sell it to
white settlers\'.

The Confederated Salish & Kootenai have managed to claw back a little. This
year they got control of the Bison Range than had been run by the US Fish &
Wildlife for a hundred years or so. You also need a tribal permit for camping,
recreation, and fishing on the rez. The fishing permit is sort of double
jeopardy since you still need a MT fishing license if you\'re white.

Anyway Juneau had taught on the rez and knew exactly how it was going to play
out more than some Bush bureaucrat. Most of the Indians have very little
interest in joining White Civ.

Yet more evidence of arrogance. Sort o flike thinking The Deaf *want*
to be a part of the hearing world (\"OhMiGosh! If *I* can hear then EVERYONE
must want to be able to hear! You poor thing...\")

I always found the foreigners (which could mean anyone from outside New
England) trying to pronounce names like Worcester, Billerica, Berlin,
Cheesequake, Poughkeepsie, etc. to be amusing. \"You\'re not from around
here,
are you?\"

Yeah, Warchester was always a show stopper. Even Albany is a two syllable word
with no \'l\' in site. Troy is almost impossible to screw up though.

A lot of the place names where I grew up were German/Dutch. To handle
Poestenkill it helps to understand umlauts and their modifications over the
years. The \'t\' is optional too. The oldest gravestones of my grandmother\'s
family have the umlaut, then oe, and finally just e. It\'s luck of the draw I
guess. Poestenkill went with the English \'o\' others go with the English short e.

The NYS Berlin follows the NH pronunciation but I have a feeling that might be
a WWI thing. They tried renaming places with mixed success.

I used to travel... A LOT! Part of my \"cheap entertainment\" was taking note
of how The Locals pronounced common words, place names, etc. Plus the
inevitable differences in the names they apply to everyday items.

I particularly enjoyed the redundant (?) \"ball bat\". Or, a glass of
\"melk\". \"Mayshed\" potatoes. etc.

And, of course, motor \"earl\".

To this day, I almost consciously take note of certain speech/pronunciation
patterns and pidgeon-hole the speaker.

 

[rbowman]

On 08/02/2022 08:35 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 8/2/2022 4:24 PM, rbowman wrote:

Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn\'t want to break down, there! No doubt
they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes

There isn\'t much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of
schools at San Simon and a couple of \'travel centers\' which may or may
not have dried up and blown away.

I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they\'re about the same distance
but at least on the run to Phoenix there\'s Gila, fwiw, and another short
hop and you\'re in Buckeye.

I can understand shortly after such an accident (e.g., one year
anniversary).
But, if folks just keep \"decorating\" these sites, they\'ll be all over the
place! Even if you just address bicycle/pedestrian/motorcycle fatalities!

There is a cemetery on the way to town that I sometimes stop at if I\'m
bicycling. The corner closest to the road is for infants, meaning
anything from still births up to one or two years old. There are toys,
pinwheels, solar light things and other decorations, sometimes with
parents, I guess, hanging out. Sad and spooky.

I used to travel... A LOT! Part of my \"cheap entertainment\" was taking
note
of how The Locals pronounced common words, place names, etc. Plus the
inevitable differences in the names they apply to everyday items.

I particularly enjoyed the redundant (?) \"ball bat\". Or, a glass of
\"melk\". \"Mayshed\" potatoes. etc.

I tend towards \'melk\' and I\'m a switch hitter on route vs. root. When I
was a kid my accent wasn\'t really typical for the area. Now some people
pick up on New England or back east someplace.

Then there are the nuances of tonic, pop, and soda. It took me a while
to figure out \'tonic\' was generic and not a flavoring for gin. Grinder,
submarine, Italian, hoagie and the distinction between a piece of peetz
and a slice. Barbecue -- I personally of the coastal North Carolina
school -- if there is a tomato anywhere near it it ain\'t barbecue and
it\'s definitely pig.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/2/2022 9:27 PM, rbowman wrote:

Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn\'t want to break down, there! No doubt
they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes

There isn\'t much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of schools at
San Simon and a couple of \'travel centers\' which may or may not have dried up
and blown away.

I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they\'re about the same distance but at
least on the run to Phoenix there\'s Gila, fwiw, and another short hop and
you\'re in Buckeye.

\"Short\"? Nothing in The West is \"short\"! :>

I cringe when I have to drive across town to the oriental market
(and never leave the city limits!). Growing up (blue laws),
I could make it to the Massachusetts state line in a similar
amount of time if we wanted beer and it was after 8PM!

[Of course, you needed a heavy foot but there were no traffic
signals that you had to worry about!]

Similarly, a neighbor *commutes* to feenigs three times a week.
WTF? I could be *in* NYC in less time. Or beantown.

A 20 minute drive was *long*. And, I\'d pass through 3 or 4
towns along the way! (complete with shopping centers, gas
stations, fire departments, etc.)

But, at least it\'s not *kansas* (or MT! :> )

I can understand shortly after such an accident (e.g., one year
anniversary).
But, if folks just keep \"decorating\" these sites, they\'ll be all over the
place! Even if you just address bicycle/pedestrian/motorcycle fatalities!

There is a cemetery on the way to town that I sometimes stop at if I\'m
bicycling. The corner closest to the road is for infants, meaning anything from
still births up to one or two years old. There are toys, pinwheels, solar light
things and other decorations, sometimes with parents, I guess, hanging out. Sad
and spooky.

But, conceptually, a cemetary is where you *expect* graves. We *know* that
there isn\'t anyone buried at all of these little roadside \"shrines\". So,
why are they there?

If someone died of a heart attack in a shopping center, would they put up a
memorial there, as well?

Is there something specially significant about traffic-related fatalities
that merits such a memorial?

<shrug> Dunno. I don\'t understand that aspect of their culture.

(likewise, the \"In memoriam\" notes elegantly lettered on the back
windows of their pickups, etc.)

Other aspects of that culture are easier to understand. E.g., The Siesta.
(excellent idea!)

I used to travel... A LOT! Part of my \"cheap entertainment\" was taking
note
of how The Locals pronounced common words, place names, etc. Plus the
inevitable differences in the names they apply to everyday items.

I particularly enjoyed the redundant (?) \"ball bat\". Or, a glass of
\"melk\". \"Mayshed\" potatoes. etc.

I tend towards \'melk\' and I\'m a switch hitter on route vs. root. When I was a
kid my accent wasn\'t really typical for the area. Now some people pick up on
New England or back east someplace.

My home town has a very distinctive accent that isn\'t present \"two towns over\".
Most notable is a glottal stop on T\'s that effectively cuts words in half at
such points. The R mangling is a combination of that of NYC and beantown.
Final G\'s are very hard. \"Quarter\" often comes out sounding like \"corter\",
etc.

Plus oddities in vocabulary (e.g., \"packie\" for package store).

Of course, you never notice this growing up.

But, when you\'ve been away for any length of time, its as if there\'s a
daemon watching to encounter it and, when you do encounter it in
another speaker, it\'s almost startling in terms of how strong the
recognition!

[I worked with a guy, here, and it was a matter of minutes before I
cornered him on this just from the little we had said to each other
at that point.]

> Then there are the nuances of tonic, pop, and soda.

Is Moxie sold in any other part of the country?

Frappe and milkshake (the former, thankyouverymuch! always amusing to see
the disappointment in folks\' eyes when they order the latter!)

It took me a while to
figure out \'tonic\' was generic and not a flavoring for gin. Grinder, submarine,
Italian, hoagie

and \"hero\" (gyro)

> and the distinction between a piece of peetz and a slice.

And that pizza is *thin*, not a meal-per-slice. And, has a layer of oil atop
designed to burn the roof of your mouth!

And, heaven forbid if you took out a fork/knife to eat same (just fold it and
open wide)!

Barbecue -- I personally of the coastal North Carolina school -- if there is a
tomato anywhere near it it ain\'t barbecue and it\'s definitely pig.

I hated pork, growing up. Mother **always** overcooked meat. Pork, doubly so
(fear of trich?). Pork chops were excellent alternatives if the leather soles
of your shoes had worn out! <frown>

I attended a friend\'s party in my 20\'s and he roasted a pig. It was *amazing*!
Absolutely amazing!

SWMBO and I have an oriental-style meal made from pork tenderloin each Sunday.
EVERY sunday -- even holidays (which are pizza days; pizza gets bumped to the
following monday). Finestkind -- on both counts!

 

[rbowman]

On 08/03/2022 03:22 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 8/2/2022 9:27 PM, rbowman wrote:

Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn\'t want to break down, there! No doubt
they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes

There isn\'t much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of
schools at San Simon and a couple of \'travel centers\' which may or may
not have dried up and blown away.

I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they\'re about the same distance
but at least on the run to Phoenix there\'s Gila, fwiw, and another
short hop and you\'re in Buckeye.

\"Short\"? Nothing in The West is \"short\"! :

Ed Abbey measured distances in the west by the number of long necks
consumed. I don\'t know what changed but in the late \'80s the road
shoulders in AZ were gardens of beer bottles and Jimson weed. There was
a concerted effort to clean up the mess and it didn\'t come back. Maybe a
preference switch to cans that blow away out of sight?

I\'ve never been into commuting. If I had a reasonably long contract in
Boston I\'d rent an apartment and only return to NH on the weekends. It
was only 60 miles but I had no desire to waste 2+ hours a day.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/3/2022 7:36 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/03/2022 03:22 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 8/2/2022 9:27 PM, rbowman wrote:

Wow, pretty *bleak* area! Wouldn\'t want to break down, there! No doubt
they (seriously!) advertise The Best Prices in Town! <rolls eyes

There isn\'t much between Three Points and Ajo. There are a couple of
schools at San Simon and a couple of \'travel centers\' which may or may
not have dried up and blown away.

I really prefer Tucson to Phoenix and they\'re about the same distance
but at least on the run to Phoenix there\'s Gila, fwiw, and another
short hop and you\'re in Buckeye.

\"Short\"? Nothing in The West is \"short\"! :

Ed Abbey measured distances in the west by the number of long necks consumed. I

I guess it\'s more practical than Smoots!

don\'t know what changed but in the late \'80s the road shoulders in AZ were
gardens of beer bottles and Jimson weed. There was a concerted effort to clean
up the mess and it didn\'t come back. Maybe a preference switch to cans that
blow away out of sight?

I\'ve never been into commuting. If I had a reasonably long contract in Boston
I\'d rent an apartment and only return to NH on the weekends. It was only 60
miles but I had no desire to waste 2+ hours a day.

My worst commute was while attending school; a daily trip from Arlington into
Cambridge for classes. Then, over the bridge to meander through beantown until
I could get down to Dedham/Norwood to work. Then, a late (11P) return home up
128 to Fresh Pond.

It wasn\'t fun -- but, it wasn\'t unbearable. IIRC, each leg was about 25
minutes.

Aside from my current commutes (bedroom to office), most have been a mile or
three. And, rarely \"into\" a metro area (save a job in Chicago but that\'s just
one big sprawl AND has decent infrastructure to move vehicles -- as long
as you don\'t go as far as downtown).

These folks who regularly spend an hour or four a day in a vehicle are
just nuts!

 

[rbowman]

On 08/03/2022 09:42 AM, Don Y wrote:

side from my current commutes (bedroom to office), most have been a mile or
three. And, rarely \"into\" a metro area (save a job in Chicago but
that\'s just
one big sprawl AND has decent infrastructure to move vehicles -- as long
as you don\'t go as far as downtown).

I only go into the office two days a week and it\'s 8.2 miles one way. No
big deal since that\'s where Albertsons is. And CostCo. And Lowes. And
.... About 30 years ago I was happy when they build a grocery store on
the outskirts of town. It was about the only thing there on what was
essentially a bypass road. Then the big box stores came.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/3/2022 8:50 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/03/2022 09:42 AM, Don Y wrote:
side from my current commutes (bedroom to office), most have been a mile or
three. And, rarely \"into\" a metro area (save a job in Chicago but
that\'s just
one big sprawl AND has decent infrastructure to move vehicles -- as long
as you don\'t go as far as downtown).

I only go into the office two days a week and it\'s 8.2 miles one way. No big

A lot depends on how easy that distance is to navigate. If I head out of town
for 8 miles, it will take me about 8 minutes (55MPH avg -- few lights!). If I
head *into* town, that number would easily double (20MP average speed)

And, the number of bozos you have to contend with on the way -- the EV drivers
diligently watching their fuel efficiency numbers to eek out every last
electron; the olde fartes driving in the left lane so they can \"follow\" the
dividing line; bicyclists who want to ride the line delimiting the bike lane
(\"give them an additional 3 ft!\"); the idiots who want to turn left from the
right lane (or vice versa); etc.

> deal since that\'s where Albertsons is. And CostCo. And Lowes. And ... About

We\'re near the edge of town yet have lots of nearby \"amenities\". Costco,
Lowes, Home Depot, Sprouts, Frys, Safeway, Albertson\'s, Post Office, two
hospitals, Walmart, country club and the usual smattering of drug stores,
fast food/etc. places are all within a few miles of our front door.
(I think one of the hospitals may be a full *3* miles from here)

And, this side of town is the LESS DEVELOPED! (sheesh!)

The downside of all this is it is too tempting to visit lots of different
vendors in a single shopping trip. Today was Albertson\'s, Costco (plus gas)
and Frys. But, I can\'t imagine what the folks in Summerhaven must
do when it comes to shopping -- with just that one store! (I don\'t even
think there\'s a gas station there!)

When we (SWMBO) used to do the shopping together, it was a grueling
pilgrimage: \"Let\'s stop at Michael\'s... and JoAnn\'s... and The Bread
Store... and we need to pick up some acetone at Lowes... and blueberries
are on sale at Fry\'s... and Sprouts for produce... and Costco has those
cookies that I like on sale... and you have some books waiting at the
library... and we should check the POBox while we\'re out...\" Some days,
*10* stops in a 2 hour period.

And, not more than 10 miles on the odometer! <frown>

Now, I do the shopping solo and get it done with fewer stops and in less time.

30 years ago I was happy when they build a grocery store on the outskirts of
town. It was about the only thing there on what was essentially a bypass road.
Then the big box stores came.

Yeah, I am amazed at how quickly things grow -- metastasize?!

When I lived in Denver, I was at the southernmost limits of the metro area.
Everything was \"north\".

I was out visiting friends a few years later and we were headed out to
a restaurant. Not recognizing anything, I assumed we were more \"in town\"
and, thus, had to head SOUTH to get back out to the area where I lived.

Yet, we were heading NORTH. For quite a long drive!

\"Yikes! ALL of this is new?? Isn\'t that Castle Rock we just passed??!\"

 

[rbowman]

On 08/03/2022 10:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
> \"Yikes! ALL of this is new?? Isn\'t that Castle Rock we just passed??!\"

The closest I\'ve been to Denver in years was Fort Collins before I cut
over to Estes Park. That was bad enough. About 15 years ago we had Wheat
Ridge, Littleton, and Castle Rock but they all got sucked into Denver\'s
system. Denver is a rather unique critter.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/3/2022 11:07 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 08/03/2022 10:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
\"Yikes! ALL of this is new?? Isn\'t that Castle Rock we just passed??!\"

The closest I\'ve been to Denver in years was Fort Collins before I cut over to
Estes Park. That was bad enough. About 15 years ago we had Wheat Ridge,
Littleton, and Castle Rock but they all got sucked into Denver\'s system. Denver
is a rather unique critter.

Yeah, I had a Littleton address but technically lived in uninc Arapahoe.
Castle Rock was *definitely* south. And, nothing but coyotes betwixt!

So, to be driving north and encounter Castle Rock *before* getting to my
neck of the woods was downright *scary*! Esp as it hadn\'t been all that
long that I\'d last been there!

The same is slowly happening here as feenigs creeps further south and
tucson north -- with picacho, casa grande, etc. slowly swelling in
between.

But, at least they are still separate \"legal entities\". Places like
chicago just \"never end\"! (you mean we\'re STILL in the city??)
Amusing when contrasted with someplace *tiny* -- like beantown!